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rich9991
01-10-2004, 06:16 AM
Obviously I'm new to flight sims by asking this, but exactly what is the rudder for? I experience its effects in extra turning abilities but do you use it for other things as well?

I find that when I'm lining up a ground shot my aim tends to "bounce" when I make small corrections with the pitch and roll. Is this normal or do I need to trim better?

rich9991
01-10-2004, 06:16 AM
Obviously I'm new to flight sims by asking this, but exactly what is the rudder for? I experience its effects in extra turning abilities but do you use it for other things as well?

I find that when I'm lining up a ground shot my aim tends to "bounce" when I make small corrections with the pitch and roll. Is this normal or do I need to trim better?

Deathsledge
01-10-2004, 07:39 AM
keep on keepin on m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Willy_Wombat
01-10-2004, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich9991:
but exactly what is the rudder for? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Why it's the one just before the rudder five mate!

WW

VW-IceFire
01-10-2004, 08:04 AM
The rudder is amongst one of the more important controls on your plane. Rudder is used to great effect for a number of things but a few that come to mind involve helping you line up your shots on a target (especially a moving one), allowing you to pull a slide manuver for evasive purposes, letting you kill speed without massive changes in direction, lining up your final landing manuver when rolling the plane will cause too much disruption to the direction, when you are on the ground taxing to takeoff position or landing. Plenty of opportunities to use the rudder...I make copius amounts of use with it and find planes difficult to control when the rudder cables have been hit.

- IceFire
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LeChuck59
01-10-2004, 08:18 AM
You can read this article for more detailed information.
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_001b.html

BM357_Raven
01-10-2004, 08:21 AM
rgr. Rudder also acts as a safety feature in essence by allowing you to either keep from entering a spin or getting you out of one if you do (by moving the rudder in the opposite direction of the way your plane is spinning).

In terms of the porpusing (wo spelling) trim IS essential, yes. Another thing you can try to do is keep a stiffer hand as you come in and 'control' the plane with a heavy hand, only making very slight corrections to the controls.

See if it helps you. I keep my elevator trim on slider, ie. I have it assigned to my throttle lever on my joystick so I can control it with some precision 'on the fly' which I think is one of the great keys to success in this game.

Not sure how many people employ trim on a regular basis.. Might make an interesting Poll..? Ok, I'll go set it up m8's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Chuck_Older
01-10-2004, 09:18 AM
I'm surprised nobody simply answered the question.

The rudder is a primary control input. The throttle and stick and obviously the others.

There are two axes (not hatchets, lol, planes of movement, as in 'axis' but plural) in, say, an automobile, for argument's sake. You may go forward and back. That's one axis. Or you may turn left and right, that's the other axis (I know that strictly speaking you could argue against that, but this is an example for clarification)

In an airplane, you have three axes
1. Pitch. You use the stick forward and back to "pitch up" and "pitch down" This is the plane's left and right axis- not meant to mean it makes the plane go left or right, using the elevators (horizontal stabilizer control surfaces). Think of an axis as an axle, a left and right situated axle would allow up and down roatation.
2. Roll. You use the stick laterally to "roll left" and "roll right". A Roll, or aileron roll, is not the same as taking a turn in a car. The stick moves the ailerons (control surfaces on the wings), which makes the plane rotate along it's fore and aft axis, rather than turning left or right. The stick and ailerons ARE used to turn, but the maneuver is a "bank turn" in which you "bank" (using the ailerons) so that the plane is at 90* (again not really perfectly 90* but this is an example) along it's fore and aft axis. The the stick is used to pitch up, making the turn tighter.
3. Yaw. This is controlled by the rudder. Yaw is the act of making the aircraft "nose left" and "nose right" with the rudder, and this rotates the plane in it's vertical axis (if flying level). The rudder's primary use in in a "co-ordinated turn" where very basically you use the stick and rudder in tandem to execute a turn. Another manuever, called a "flat turn" can be effected by simply using the rudder to yaw left or right. The rudder is also crucial in a spin, you apply opposite rudder to escape the spin (again, at it's simplest). It's also used to counteract engine torque on takeoff, and to keep a straight course in flight during a crosswind.

Try this experiment to see how critical rudder control can be:

Hop in your favorite IL2 plane. Get going preety fast. Now:
1 bank the plane left or right with the ailerons so that your plane is at about 90* bank, or if you prefer, so that the horizon line does not bisect the cockpit view horizonatlly, but rather vertically.
2 "Tuck in" the stick by pulling smoothly and steadily backwards. Do not stall.
3 Note how the horizon will appear to rise, and how your altitude will drop off.
4 Use rudder opposite to your turn- ie: if you banked left, use right rudder. Note how you can use the rudder to keep the nose above the horizon and how you can stop yourself from losing altitude with it.

The rudder is also used to initiate many manuevers that you will begin to attempt once you become more proficient, such as a wingover or chandelle.

Although the rudder is grat for lining up shots in combat, until you're comfortable using the rudder in basic manuevers, you're quite handicapped against an aerial opponent.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

Willy_Wombat
01-10-2004, 09:37 AM
Wow Chuck, how pompous can you get? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The others did a fine job considering the level of question asked.

Rich, the rudder is in the back and its PRIMARY purpose is to keep the tail back where it belongs, nicely out of the way. Also you can wiggle the tail and do all sorts of fun stuff with it.

That's it.

Oh, and that bouncing thing is normal. You'll get used to it.

And Raven, I love it when you talk dirty.

WW

[This message was edited by Willy_Wombat on Sat January 10 2004 at 08:48 AM.]

Bearcat99
01-10-2004, 10:02 AM
Moe along folks...theres nothing to see here....... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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Cajun76
01-10-2004, 10:05 AM
It probably took him awhile to write that, before anyone else had responded, and he posted after they did. Though I have the feeling your just messing with him.....http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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steve_v
01-10-2004, 10:10 AM
Would like to add "keeping the ball centered" in the turn and bank indicators. Takes practice to fly this way but improves aiming and hit ratio.

Chuck_Older
01-10-2004, 10:47 AM
Uh....wtf...he asked a question, "What is the rudder for?"

I answered it. He said himself he's new, so I gave the best answer I could. I didn't see a clear cut answer to his question, so I gave the best one I could in the clearest wording I could think of so that somebody with less technical understanding could make heads or tails of what I posted, and then I gave examples. I guess that makes me some kind of jerk. I wonder what kind of names I'd be called if I had said something offensive or put someone down...oh wait, it looks like that's somebody else's job here, doesn't it, Willy?

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

StellarRat
01-10-2004, 10:58 AM
Hint: In combat your plane will roll much faster if you move the rudder in the same direction as you're rolling the wings. This is very important if you fly a plane with a slow roll rate. If you have a twist joystick you twist the same direction as you move the joystick. For pedals you'd push down on the right pedal if you were rolling to the right.

[This message was edited by StellarRat on Sat January 10 2004 at 10:39 AM.]

XyZspineZyX
01-10-2004, 12:09 PM
Chuck_Older;

You're answer was perfect. The QMB example was excellent. That's how I discovered how to use the rudder effectivly during turning.

~S~ for your help for someone new.

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-unknown ATC transmission.

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Old_Canuck
01-10-2004, 12:27 PM
Good answer Chuck ... as Tsisqua says, "no good deed goes unpunished." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OC

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rich9991
01-10-2004, 01:41 PM
Thanks very much to ALL (esp Chuck_Older for the excellent response). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This has really helped - you guys who posted can have Monday off. I suppose I MAY have worked all this out after 12 months, but I need a daily dose of "oh-so-that's-what-that's-for". Thanks again! Look Ma, I'm flyin'.

Falcon_41
01-10-2004, 01:55 PM
Aw, did I miss the fight?

I think everyone did a good job helping rich,

Willy, Raven, Icefire and others might not have appreciated ...

"I'm surprised nobody simply answered the question."

maybe??

It may have had just a wee bit too much *attitude* stuck in it, Chuck

maybe?

~shrug~



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VW-IceFire
01-10-2004, 02:40 PM
Multiple answers are good - as long as they all make relative sense and in this case largely agree with each other http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And they do!

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Griffon_25th
01-10-2004, 02:50 PM
"Why it's the one just before the rudder five mate!

WW"


----huh??????????

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Taylortony
01-10-2004, 03:01 PM
Actually Chuck_Older answer was pretty much spot on the axis is the point in which the aircraft rotates in any plane,

BM357_ Raven wrote:-
Not sure how many people employ trim on a regular basis.. Might make an interesting Poll..? Ok, I'll go set it up m8's

In real life the Elevator trim and to a certain amount the aileron trim is used to correct out of balance forces, in flight an aircraft will burn fuel and not neccesarily from the same wing, so as fuel is consumed the aircraft will get tail heavy or even one wing heavy, trim is used to to correct the forces needed to keep it level, by in effect flying the control surface one way or the other to a neutral position to allow for this effect and relieving the forces on the control system. also as a plane is never 100% straight the trims are also used to balance the aircraft out, likewise rudder trim is used to counter act torque and assymetric thrust on twins..
Going one step further the BAE 146 aircraft does not have the elevators connected to any control system as the forces to move them would be more than the pilots could manage. Instead it has a small trim tab attached to the stick and this surface, with its smaller loading is used to fly the larger elevator to its position the pilot requires. Ohhh going back this but i think it was called a Servo tab system.

Osirisx9
01-10-2004, 03:16 PM
Chuck your answer was perfect and you cut strait through the chase. I fly real planes and in a couple of months I will be earning my bread by sitting in the left seat. Do you fly in real life you seem well versed in the proper use of the rudder.

Osiris_X9

Willy_Wombat
01-10-2004, 04:12 PM
Yes exactly. I have been flying for almost 30 years and as an instructor in those early days I taught all sorts of students. Someone else was spot on though. My comment was directed to Chuck for simply sounding rude to the others who answered the question well enough. Whether you meant it to sound rude or not it is obvious to several that Chuck could have chosen a less cocky phrase.

WW

[This message was edited by Willy_Wombat on Sat January 10 2004 at 03:57 PM.]

Chuck_Older
01-10-2004, 04:22 PM
Osirisx-

I'm not a pilot, just an ex-aeronautical student. Pilot's licenses cost money I hear, and I'm lucky to pay the rent, lol

Willy-

The "simply answered the question" thing was not a rude comment, I just was quite surprised that no-one described the actual function, theory, and use of the rudder in basic terms to someone who comes right out and says that they are new. Manuevering in 3 dimensions throws some folks as I'm sure you know. Others had answered the main body of his post, but hadn't touched on answering the actual question. Like I said, I found that surprising. I answered and that's that. Sorry if anyone took offense, that was not my intent.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

pourshot
01-10-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Osirisx-

Willy-

The "simply answered the question" thing was not a rude comment, I just was quite surprised that no-one described the actual function, theory, and use of the rudder in basic terms to someone who comes right out and says that they are new. Manuevering in 3 dimensions throws some folks as I'm sure you know. Others had answered the main body of his post, but hadn't touched on answering the actual question. Like I said, I found that surprising. I answered and that's that. Sorry if anyone took offense, that was not my intent.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You did a fine job with your answer,only one person objected for god only knows why.

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Ride It Like Ya Stole It

jazman777
01-10-2004, 04:30 PM
No one's mentioned Hammerheads. Need rudder there, no? If not, can someone describe the right way to do a Hammerhead?

---
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necrobaron
01-10-2004, 04:39 PM
This doesn't really apply for FB,but rudder was also good for strafing infantry. By yawing the plane left and right you would "spray" your bullets and be more likely to hit more people.

SpremeCommander
01-10-2004, 07:19 PM
Jeez you guys. Chuck wasn't being rude or displaying attitude in his first post. He was right on in attempting to explain what rudder is (in the first place) before moving on to more advanced topics like lining up shots or evasive manuevers using the rudder.

As I read the first few posts, I was equally surprised that no one really answered the question until well into the thread. And I think people calling him rude are just a wee bit sensitive.

Falcon_41
01-10-2004, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SpremeCommander:
Jeez you guys.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Double jeez guys ...

If you want to be fair and END this ...

Some folks think Chuck thought he was not being rude ...

and some folks thought Chuck was making a veiled remark to the guys who answered the question as best they could.

therefore, a tie!

This forum has been remarkably more mature recently when compared to last fall. Let's stop, please.

The End.

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tttiger
01-10-2004, 10:31 PM
Geeze, this is such basic stuff and there are so many places it can be found on the internet.

Sorry, but I have no patience for people who can't do a little basic research. There really is such a thing as a dumb question.

Two replies:

Google

and

RTFM

Aloha.

ttt

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adlabs6
01-10-2004, 11:37 PM
What's the rudder for?

I was wondering this the other day myself. I checked, and I don't think I had to step on the ball once under non combat turn conditions! Either quite a few FB planes autocoordinate, even on FR, or the bubble just doesn't indicate properly.

As an aiming tool, rudder cannot be overlooked, however.

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