PDA

View Full Version : Life after Bush



Huxley_S
02-22-2008, 04:16 PM
I can hardly contain my excitement over the US presidential race. There's a very high probability that the US will see it's first woman or first black president.

Even the worst case scenario, that the US stays true to form and elects McCain, will be a vast improvement over the travesty of the Bush administration.

McCain is an intelligent man who has been in public service his whole life. Bush by contrast an amiable half-wit, a reformed drunk whose single qualification for political life is his last name and family's fortune and whose tenure as president has been catastrophic for America and the world at large.

So even the worst case scenario is a good scenario.

But now, with America on the brink of recession and likely to take the whole world with it, and legions of disillusioned and wronged young men creating an inexhaustible enemy in the Middle East, perhaps America will choose to change course and choose a leader that has the vision and the skills to undo the mistakes of the Bush administration and to win back all the goodwill that has been lost.

These 8 years have been so long and tragic that I'm sure many Americans can't remember a time when their country wasn't despised and scorned. But I remember when American presidents were greeted around the world with flags and parades rather than mass protests and rioting. It wasn't that long ago... it just seems like it.

In a few months we could see those days return. I'm really hoping that Americans will seize the historic opportunity that has presented itself.

Rjel
02-22-2008, 04:22 PM
I was just a kid when President Nixon was in office, but I think I held him in higher regard than I do the current administration. I can't wait for the change.

Urufu_Shinjiro
02-22-2008, 04:31 PM
Wow, it didn't occur to me untill you said that but you've got to be one cr@p-@ss president to be considered worse than Nixon. It's true, he may be worse than Nixon, and thats very scary....

crucislancer
02-22-2008, 05:46 PM
Whoever wins the Presidency had better be prepared to work hard, and had better pick good people for thier administration. The Bush Administration has screwed things up so bad it's going to take some time to fix. Also, I hope the general public realizes that as well. Change will come, but not overnight.

Bush is one of, if not the most, unpopular president in history. You don't have a consistant approval rating under 20% and think things are peachy.

leitmotiv
02-22-2008, 05:58 PM
As usual, when we need brilliance we get fabricated "feel good" candidates run through the processing mill like salami: a nice black guy with a great spiel but a complete question mark in managerial skills; a shrill, low-ball playing harridan who has no competency except in supporting a satyriac husband through one self-inflicted debacle after another; and a dirty old party politician with anger "issues," and, possibly, some corruption "issues" which may knock him out of the contest.

Whoeeee. The last time we had two brains running was in 1960---JFK vs Nixon. It's all been downhill since.

I'll give Bam Bam the benefit of the doubt---he has about as much experience as Lincoln had when he came into office, but, the nation paid dearly while he gained experience and stature in office. The Presidency should not be a training ground.

Simply put, the best and the brightest do not run, but, then, they never have.

mortoma
02-22-2008, 07:03 PM
Reagan was my favorite president. All presidents have their scandals, his was Iran-Contra but other than that I really liked him a lot. Margaret Thatcher was a good one for Britain too. Smart woman there. Far more brainy than Sillary, I mean Hillary.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:
I can hardly contain my excitement over the US presidential race. There's a very high probability that the US will see it's first woman or first black president.

Even the worst case scenario, that the US stays true to form and elects McCain, will be a vast improvement over the travesty of the Bush administration.

McCain is an intelligent man who has been in public service his whole life. Bush by contrast an amiable half-wit, a reformed drunk whose single qualification for political life is his last name and family's fortune and whose tenure as president has been catastrophic for America and the world at large.

So even the worst case scenario is a good scenario.

But now, with America on the brink of recession and likely to take the whole world with it, and legions of disillusioned and wronged young men creating an inexhaustible enemy in the Middle East, perhaps America will choose to change course and choose a leader that has the vision and the skills to undo the mistakes of the Bush administration and to win back all the goodwill that has been lost.

These 8 years have been so long and tragic that I'm sure many Americans can't remember a time when their country wasn't despised and scorned. But I remember when American presidents were greeted around the world with flags and parades rather than mass protests and rioting. It wasn't that long ago... it just seems like it.

In a few months we could see those days return. I'm really hoping that Americans will seize the historic opportunity that has presented itself.

Personaly i don't think that those young men & women in Iraq are, as you say "disillusioned" at all. I think they all have a clear vison and focas on what thier mission is and what thier doing. and for you make such a statment ....well i find that rather insulting.
Becuase no matter what they are called to do or by whom....they VOLENTEERD to do it. because they are doing what thyey are doing i can sleep safe and sound in my bed at night. becuase they are dodging bullets, & IED's i don't have to.
I love each and every one of them. becuse they would choose to give thier life so that i can be safe and have mine. and for ANYONE to say anything negative about even one of them will put me on the warpath faster than anything else save maybe my kids or my family. I've got thier back becuase they've damn sure got mine. and for whatever reason wrong or right i'll support them. SO YOU NEED TO CHOOSE YOUR WORDS MORE CARFULLY.

as for bush.....he hijacked the eletions to get into office becusae the the well to do and wealthy & corparations & big oil wanted theiR money back. it's all about the haves and the have nots.

when i was a boy my grand paw was a die hard southern Democrat. as i got older, times change and ppl's view change. He once said: "them godamed republicans are gonna send the country straight to hell, and them there damn democrats have already got the handbasket picked out."

HE WAS RIGHT.

I am not a democrat
i am not a republican
i am a centrist and i am A blue collar lower middle class American.
I have no party. and no represntation in our govermnt. there is no party here for "the rest of us." I am the meaning of the word "disenfranchised"

republicains used to be all about limiting taxes on the working class. NO MORE.
Republicans should all be shot, hanged drawn & quarterd. they're all worthless, they care only about lining thier own pockets, and the pockets of the wealthy and afluent. that is the bottom line with them. and they will flaunt and twist religion to thier likeing to suit thier aims and draw in the christain voters to keep them in thier jobs. they fight for big business to keep thier jobs while all the time claiming thier for the "little guy". thier the reverse robing hood of our time. helping to keep the class lines clearly drawn.

the democrats are no better. they too serve thier own masters. and NOT the people. they used to be the party of the farmers, poor and underprivleged. the blue collar mans freind.
Now they just serve hollywood, minorities and special intrest groups. While the common working man is left out in the cold.
if everyone of the b@sterds were to come to a trajik end i wouldn't shed a tear.

IF my state were to withdraw from the US tommorow i would dance in the street in celibration. becuse i put my home state of Alabama before the whole of this country.
But since that day will never come and this is my coutry and Bush is our president (by hook or by crook) i will rally around our flag singing the star spalngled banner with a feather in my cap. and if my phone rings tommorow and the US army says pack yer backs your going to war....i'll be the 1st in line at the recriuting station to sign up.

I didn't vote for bush. i've stoped voting. i have no party or canidate. so my vote doesn't count. i'd have to choose a party and i don't agree with either one. the american 2 party system is like watching 2 dogs out in the yard fighting over the same bone.
I didn't vote for his father either. I volted for Bill Clinton. my choices...didn't really have one. Was eaither Bush who i din't like, Clinton, or that millionair miget from texas.
I felt like i voted for the lesser of 3 evils.
was sorta like choosing the means of your own exicution. hanging, firing squad or electric chair.

I didn't agree with Clinton on the miltary and some issues. but he was good for the econmy. And i din't mind it so much that he couldn't keep his ****** in his pants. that's his personal bussiness and IMO has little to do with how he manages the coutry and the miltary.
So long as the president does his job, does it will i have no concern about what the hell goes on in his personal life. if he wants to use some chick as a humidor so be it. just so long as he does the job we the people are paying him to do.

I despise W. i'll be as glad to see him go as the the nest guy. but lets get one thing stright...you people whom are not from this country... you have zero right to be critics.
you want us to be things were never wanted to be. we never asked to be the worlds police force, thier bank, or thier chartible org.
maybey if the rest of you ppl steped it up a notch and did your part, and cleaned up your own *******d mess we wouldn't have to. so do expect us to be those things and then trun around and B*tch about how we do them.
becuse persaonlly it would suit me just fine if we closed down the boarders and withdrew our military tomorrow from every where in the world.
and let the rest of ya'll fend for yourselvs.
you piss, whine and moan about us. claim to hate us, and yet we're the 1st ones you ppl call when the $hit hits the fan.

I like Obama. I think almost time we elected a black man for president. However i don't think he is ready. he lacks the experiance. Mrs. Clinton doesn't. which is why i'm suporting her.
She spent 8 years in the white house already, 8 years in the senate, and a lifeime in public service. that's hwy i'm suporting her. and becuse i can remeber that when the clintons left the white house there was no buget defacate. after 8 years of bush we'll have one that is larger than when his father left office.

the current elections.....
if i had to vote and vote fora democrat.......i want Clinton for President & Obama for Vice President. Then in 4 or 8 years...no one can say he lacks experance and we'll finaly have a black president and IMO a damn good one too. one day Sen. Obama will be great. it just aint today. and i won't vote for him. becuse i feel that he's not ready. the coutry is ready for him....he's just not ready for the job. put him back in the oven. that pie aint finnished baking yet.

I would vote for colin powell in a heart beat..but his wife won't let him run. lol
and 8 years ago i think he had a good shot at winning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

this country is more than ready for it's 1st African American president. we just don't have the right person .....YET. and i wish obama was ready....but he's not. and i cannot in good faith, vote for a man based on his race....even though i'm more than ready to vote for an African American president.

on the other side....McCain is the only Republican i could allow my self to vote for in good faith. He's the only one of those @ssholes that has my respect. and my drean ticket for athe GOP would be Mcain/Rice. I'd like to see Condi run with him. not just bcause she's a black woman...but becuse she's from Alabama. Wich in my book only adds to her apeal.

So if i do vote It'll be for Clinton.
and i'm hoping for a Clinton/Obama ticket.
i think we're ready for that. God knows the economy is & the blue collar working class is.
but it's going to hard to vote against McCain. even more so if it's McCain/Rice. but Condi has already said she's not considering the job if it's offerd.

i really like all three. it's just that thier parties suck.

I realise i have some very odd political views.....but that's just how isee things.

but let me close with this. Goverments exist to serve the will of the people. Not for the People to serve their goverments. and when goverments over step that boundry...the prople have the right to petition that goverment, and indeed remove/or replace it. even if by force.
A little revolution every now and again is healthy. this country was founded on it.

leitmotiv
02-22-2008, 07:09 PM
Maggie was absolutely herself and absolutely real. The Hils is a concoction from advertisement agencies and study groups. Like her husband, I doubt if she has the slightest idea who the heck she really is. There are a lot of people just like her.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Reagan was my favorite president. All presidents have their scandals, his was Iran-Contra but other than that I really liked him a lot. Margaret Thatcher was a good one for Britain too. Smart woman there. Far more brainy than Sillary, I mean Hillary.

the only thing Ronald Reagan did was strengthen our miltary, help the fall of comunism, and line the yuppies pockets so all those @ssholes could snort coke and drive beamers.
but hey....2 out of tree ain't bad.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-22-2008, 07:20 PM
There's a lot of fireworks and booze stored over here ready for the day when the old bat dies. That's all I'm saying on the matter.

Huxley_S
02-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Personaly i don't think that those young men & women in Iraq are, as you say "disillusioned" at all.

I wasn't talking about the US forces stationed in Iraq... I was talking about the people who actually live there. They and all the others in the region who's lives have been completely destroyed by what has happened there. The million or so refugees who have been displaced and lost their homes and property. The tens of thousands who have lost family members. The inhabitants of Gaza and the Lebanon who's lives have become misery, poverty and unemployment. These are the disillusioned I was talking about.

Thanks to the catastrophies of the last 8 years these people are ripe for the picking by extremists and terrorist organizations and will be used not just against the US but against all of us.

The extremists are few but the disillusioned are many. That's the real danger.

As for the forces in Iraq... they're doing the best they can under the circumstances. If they had stayed in Afghanistan to finish the job there, like they should've done, things might have been better for them as well as everyone else.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 07:29 PM
and i'm waiting for the day the NY times burns to the ground and fox noise (fox news) explodes.
i'll throw a part for that.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
There's a lot of fireworks and booze stored over here ready for the day when the old bat dies. That's all I'm saying on the matter.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif uuuummmmm you wouldn't be talking bad about the Queen Mum would you?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

lol how compleatly unbrittish of you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Huxley_S
02-22-2008, 07:45 PM
you want us to be things were never wanted to be. we never asked to be the worlds police force, thier bank, or thier chartible org.

Well I think we've all learned a lesson there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-22-2008, 07:51 PM
Even committed republicans like me loved the Queen Mum.

I've noticed something about Americans - correct me if I'm wrong and I trust my pro-American leanings are known enough here for this not to be taken the wrong way - you seem to speak your mind at election time and get behind your president once elected, there seems to be a respect for the post, maybe a form of patriotism amongst you that is lacking over here. Our leaders are fair game all the time.

jarink
02-22-2008, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:
I can hardly contain my excitement over the US presidential race. There's a very high probability that the US will see it's first woman or first black president.

You say that as if it's automatically a good thing? The first of anything doesn't necessarily mean it will be a good first thing.

Personally, I don't vote for people based on their race or gender. I know there will be a lot of people who have in the primaries and will likely do so in the real election and I think it's a sad commentary on how elections in this country have become more of a media show and popularity contest than a real expression of the people's will.

I think that either Hillary or Obama in the White House, combined with a Democrat-controlled Congress will certainly bring about change. Our taxes will change (they will go up), our health care system will change (it will be socialized with no way of paying for it, likely meaning poorer care overall), our foreign policy will change (we will abandon what few allies we have left in the name of political expediency), we'll likely give Communist China most-favored-nation trading status (meaning an even higher trade imbalance) and lastly, we will enter a recession no matter who is in charge and recover from it after a year or two (such things tend to be cyclical). And the Dems will take credit for it.

R_Target
02-22-2008, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
Even committed republicans like me loved the Queen Mum.

I've noticed something about Americans - correct me if I'm wrong and I trust my pro-American leanings are known enough here for this not to be taken the wrong way - you seem to speak your mind at election time and get behind your president once elected, there seems to be a respect for the post, maybe a form of patriotism amongst you that is lacking over here. Our leaders are fair game all the time.

You may not have a complete picture of the American media. Bush is routinely crucified in Op-Ed pages around the country.

Since Nixon, all have been suspect.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by jarink:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huxley_S:
I can hardly contain my excitement over the US presidential race. There's a very high probability that the US will see it's first woman or first black president.

You say that as if it's automatically a good thing? The first of anything doesn't necessarily mean it will be a good first thing.

Personally, I don't vote for people based on their race or gender. I know there will be a lot of people who have in the primaries and will likely do so in the real election and I think it's a sad commentary on how elections in this country have become more of a media show and popularity contest than a real expression of the people's will.

I think that either Hillary or Obama in the White House, combined with a Democrat-controlled Congress will certainly bring about change. Our taxes will change (they will go up), our health care system will change (it will be socialized with no way of paying for it, likely meaning poorer care overall), our foreign policy will change (we will abandon what few allies we have left in the name of political expediency), we'll likely give Communist China most-favored-nation trading status (meaning an even higher trade imbalance) and lastly, we will enter a recession no matter who is in charge and recover from it after a year or two (such things tend to be cyclical). And the Dems will take credit for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken like a true Republican.

I swear .....naaa not even gonna go there.
Don't need the left & right wingers on the forum after me.

Taxes will change for those who have been paying too little and down for (those like myself)who have been paying too much.
all those pencil pushing 70k & up ppl will now have to put forth thier fair share and stop getting a free ride off us blue collar working folks.

and healthcare....i can't damn afford it. might be becuse the pepole who control the money think tthat thier position in life and their status perofessional mean that they deserve a bigger slive of the pie than us working folks and with out putting thier fair share inthe pot.
So we have to make up the diferance for thier tax breaks...gee that and the fact that they keep the wages kicked down might have soemthing to do with why i can't afford health insurance.

I belive we should close our boarders and tell the rest of the world to kiss our ***.

and we should tell china to kiss our *** twice.

Nafta has to go. I didn't agree with Clinton when he did it. was dead set against it. oh well.

and the thing about trade with china...simple don't buy it. look and see whrere it's made 1st.
i do. take 2 seconds as i toss it into the shopping cart.

Copperhead311th
02-22-2008, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
Even committed republicans like me loved the Queen Mum.

I've noticed something about Americans - correct me if I'm wrong and I trust my pro-American leanings are known enough here for this not to be taken the wrong way - you seem to speak your mind at election time and get behind your president once elected, there seems to be a respect for the post, maybe a form of patriotism amongst you that is lacking over here. Our leaders are fair game all the time.

it's.....well.....
only way i can describe it is this.

Before 9/11 the flag wasn't displayed on every house. or displayed so much. and there wasn't as much of a sense of unity in this country as after that day. not that i had ever seen.

After 9/11 every house in the country just about had a flag waving outside. Sales of flags quadruppled.

not saying 9/11 is the cuase of that.... but it did make a differance. where before afw ppl were burning the flag...after everyone was waving it.

We've always had it in some form or another....
but suporting the president (while often cursing him like a dog over domestic policy) is part of national unity.
we've always has it...just not as much, nor as open as after 9/11.

joe.08
02-22-2008, 08:57 PM
well this site shows W's approval ratings for his entire presidency http://pollkatz.homestead.com/files/bushindex.htm

if you scroll down to the bottom you'll notice it stays in the 50s until the poll after September 2001. After which it shot up into the 80s, then a gradual decline. It drops at the beginning of 2003 when some of us were being deployed then spikes after the announcement of the "Shock and Awe" campaign; then declines again gradually into the 30s (I'm surprised its not into the 10s by now).

Anyway, as far as the "support the new guy" theory goes, I'm not entirely sure it's accurate (50% seems pretty low to me).

Maybe what you're thinking of is just an overall optimism put on by the media

ElAurens
02-22-2008, 09:12 PM
I love it when our European friends comment on US politics. They are every bit as clueless about ours as we are about theirs methinks.

We are faced with the worst choices I can remember in my 35 years as a voter, because we have no real choices. Three left of center candidates does not make for a real choice. Just a matter of degree.

I will go no further though.

Discussing/arguing about politics is not why I come here. I'll save that for the real world.

Let's fly.

roybaty
02-22-2008, 10:08 PM
It doesn't matter who wins people, things will be bleak either way.

joe.08
02-22-2008, 10:08 PM
I love it when our European friends comment on US politics. They are every bit as clueless about ours as we are about theirs methinks.


yes but remember the general feeling of these "other guys" is that the American public is too stupid to even know the location of New York City and our capital.

LW_lcarp
02-22-2008, 10:43 PM
Theres two things in life no two people will agree on Politics and Religion.

HayateAce
02-22-2008, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by joe.08:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I love it when our European friends comment on US politics. They are every bit as clueless about ours as we are about theirs methinks.


yes but remember the general feeling of these "other guys" is that the American public is too stupid to even know the location of New York City and our capital. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

New York City is our capital?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

csThor
02-23-2008, 12:53 AM
Whoever follows Bush in the Oval Office - he or she will have a job I would not want for all the money in the world. There's a lot of "smashed porcellaine" to glue ...

foxyboy1964
02-23-2008, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Margaret Thatcher was a good one for Britain too.

Thatcher was not good for Britain. She was good for the British economy, and that is VERY important, but she was not good for Britain. In many ways Britain is now reaping the whirlwind of Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" attitude. And yes, she actually said that, and then went out of her way to make sure it happened.

As for the upcoming American elections, I wish you well, and I hope whoever wins does a good job for you, your country and the world at large.

Messaschnitzel
02-23-2008, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

Spoken like a true Republican.

I swear .....naaa not even gonna go there.
Don't need the left & right wingers on the forum after me.

Taxes will change for those who have been paying too little and down for (those like myself)who have been paying too much.
all those pencil pushing 70k & up ppl will now have to put forth thier fair share and stop getting a free ride off us blue collar working folks.

and healthcare....i can't damn afford it. might be becuse the pepole who control the money think tthat thier position in life and their status perofessional mean that they deserve a bigger slive of the pie than us working folks and with out putting thier fair share inthe pot.
So we have to make up the diferance for thier tax breaks...gee that and the fact that they keep the wages kicked down might have soemthing to do with why i can't afford health insurance.

I belive we should close our boarders and tell the rest of the world to kiss our ***.

and we should tell china to kiss our *** twice.

Nafta has to go. I didn't agree with Clinton when he did it. was dead set against it. oh well.

and the thing about trade with china...simple don't buy it. look and see whrere it's made 1st.
i do. take 2 seconds as i toss it into the shopping cart.

I think that it is inevitable that taxes will have to go up no matter who is in office. With the current spending spree going on, something is going to have to give. What drives me crazy is that we continue to p1ss away our money giving it to countries who could really give a d@mn about the U.S., and wouldn't raise a finger to help us should the situation be reversed. The powers that be have decided to take what they can from their own people, only to give it to someone else. Every year they have to borrow from countries like China to meet whatever budget requirements the high priests decide to divine from the guts of the U.S.

Another problem is that businesses, from the largest to smallest have been outsourcing everything from goods to information for a long time now. Even our beloved IRS outsources our federal income tax returns. Imagine that, with all the hoopla about identity theft, and they give the keys to your identity to someone in Bangalore.

There is a big difference between fair trade and free trade. What the f**k is the WTO? Who are they to tell my country to open the door to cheaply made goods from some other country. Ironic is the fact that the U.S. was a big pusher for this. To be fair, this should go both ways. People are easily won with the idea that cheaper goods are better, so if they want to continue to be able to buy cheap, low quality goods, then they have no choice but to buy foreign stuff. What this amounts to is that our own perfectly healthy milk cow has been left to starve, while buying someone else's cheaper, inferior milk. After their cow dies from neglect, then they are stuck with buying milk from outside sources. I will do the best that I can, with what knowledge I have to not buy foreign goods if I am at all able to buy American. I have been told the excuse for this sort of outsourced business activity is "it is what the people want. If they didn't want it, there wouldn't be a market." How do you argue against that? Maybe this might sum it up:

http://slapnose.com/images/blog/0604/0604_pogo_298x397.gif

slipBall
02-23-2008, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:
I can hardly contain my excitement over the US presidential race. There's a very high probability that the US will see it's first woman or first black president.

Even the worst case scenario, that the US stays true to form and elects McCain, will be a vast improvement over the travesty of the Bush administration.

McCain is an intelligent man who has been in public service his whole life. Bush by contrast an amiable half-wit, a reformed drunk whose single qualification for political life is his last name and family's fortune and whose tenure as president has been catastrophic for America and the world at large.

So even the worst case scenario is a good scenario.

But now, with America on the brink of recession and likely to take the whole world with it, and legions of disillusioned and wronged young men creating an inexhaustible enemy in the Middle East, perhaps America will choose to change course and choose a leader that has the vision and the skills to undo the mistakes of the Bush administration and to win back all the goodwill that has been lost.

These 8 years have been so long and tragic that I'm sure many Americans can't remember a time when their country wasn't despised and scorned. But I remember when American presidents were greeted around the world with flags and parades rather than mass protests and rioting. It wasn't that long ago... it just seems like it.

In a few months we could see those days return. I'm really hoping that Americans will seize the historic opportunity that has presented itself.


Your thought's are faulty, and your excitement is not justified

Pirschjaeger
02-23-2008, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Wow, it didn't occur to me untill you said that but you've got to be one cr@p-@ss president to be considered worse than Nixon. It's true, he may be worse than Nixon, and thats very scary....

Name one US pres that was worse than Bush. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Irish_Rogues
02-23-2008, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Wow, it didn't occur to me untill you said that but you've got to be one cr@p-@ss president to be considered worse than Nixon. It's true, he may be worse than Nixon, and thats very scary....

Name one US pres that was worse than Bush. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jimmy Carter for starters...

Pirschjaeger
02-23-2008, 06:55 AM
Carter was worse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I know he was far from the best, or even good, but how can he be worse than Bush?

Ratsack
02-23-2008, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
...Our leaders are fair game all the time.

And so they should be. I heartily detest the forelock tuggin' fawning that goes on around elected public servants. In my view they should be constantly reminded who's payroll they're supposed to be on.

Ratsack

Airmail109
02-23-2008, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Wow, it didn't occur to me untill you said that but you've got to be one cr@p-@ss president to be considered worse than Nixon. It's true, he may be worse than Nixon, and thats very scary....

Name one US pres that was worse than Bush. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jimmy Carter for starters... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nahhhh way off the mark, Jimmy Carter didnt turn half the world against the United States and turn many off democracy.

bun-bun195333
02-23-2008, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Carter was worse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I know he was far from the best, or even good, but how can he be worse than Bush?


I bought my house during the Carter years. The interest rate was 11.5% with a 25% downpayment. We waited in long lines to buy gas on alternate days based on whether our license plate ended even or odd. The economy sucked while Carter was president.

Jimmy Carter was the worst president in modern times.

Take a look at the way the voters responded in 1980.
Carter/Reagan electoral map 1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png)

Screw world opinion.

buzzsaw1939
02-23-2008, 09:04 AM
It strikes me that Carter didn't do anything he wasn't advised to do, he was a solid American citizen who cared about America, he just didn't fit in! And his brother Billy didn't help much.

Blameing Carter alone for what happened in this country, instead of where the blame should be, seems a little obsurd to me!

Carter grew peanuts, not oil! think about it!

bun-bun195333
02-23-2008, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Carter grew peanuts, not oil! think about it!

and the world would be a better place if Carter had remained an obscure peanut farmer.

Blood_Splat
02-23-2008, 09:08 AM
Some countries in the Middle East will always hate us. As long as we have oil interests over there. Hell they hate us for being allies with Israel.

Pirschjaeger
02-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Can the economy during Carter's time be blamed totally on Carter?

I'm thinking about how the next US pres will go down in history due to him being left trying to clean up the Bu****.

Was the economy great just before and during the first while in the Carter years?

buzzsaw1939
02-23-2008, 09:36 AM
That was my point Fritz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

norman888
02-23-2008, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

I'm thinking about how the next US pres will go down in history due to him being left trying to clean up the Bu****.


I also think that Carter was the worst Prez of our time. That kind of perception is the same thing that Bush is going through-maybe the wrong kind of President at the wrong time. Bush has become scapegaot for all ills-in our own country and abroad.

All the oil conspiracies are really goofy to. The USA/capatalism is driven by big-business and profit. Gas prices have been artificially low in the USA for years...bring on $4 gallon gas.

Clinton wasn't all that great either-opening up China to the WTO, cutting our military at the wrong time. N Korea and Pakistan getting nukes etc. Euros seemed to like him but recent events have shown just how useful/helpful our "Allies" can be.

Finally this health-care debate is just BS. I have worked on my own for 20 years and have purchased insurance for my family. I have paid $480 a month for decent coverage because I wanted to. Now I work for a large Corp and pay $100 a month, my choice. If your situation stinks change it, go to school, make things better for yourself and family-it's the American way. I (and my immigrant wife) didn't wait for the US government to come to my rescue and pay for my health insurance, raise minimum wage to $20 or give me a $1500 tax rebate. If I wanted that I would live in The Netherlands http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

relcox
02-23-2008, 09:39 AM
who is to blame;
We are, the ordinary people that sit on our backsides and do nothing about it except whine while a small select % of the population of our countries tells us what to do and think.......

ElAurens
02-23-2008, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Name one US pres that was worse than Bush. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ulysses Simpson Grant.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Ulysses_Grant_1870-1880.jpg/300px-Ulysses_Grant_1870-1880.jpg

Be sure.

BTOG46
02-23-2008, 09:56 AM
bring on $4 gallon gas.

Hell, double that and it will still be cheap compared to the price here in the UK! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

buzzsaw1939
02-23-2008, 09:56 AM
Any body remember when a bill to limit congressionl terms was sent before congress, and it didn't pass? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif gee, I wonder how that happened?

Oh well, we're about to elect another scape goat, things should get better... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Stew278
02-23-2008, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Any body remember when a bill to limit congressionl terms was sent before congress, and it didn't pass? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif gee, I wonder how that happened?



I'd put some of the blame for this mess on Congress too, not just the President. They get nothing accomplished because they just waste time bickering and disagreeing purely to spite their adversaries. A bunch of power-drunk egos , most of whom care very little about the people they are supposed to serve (except during election years).

It was the Congress (especially during 2000-06) that really facilitated a lot of the things Bush did either by backing him or being too spineless to oppose him.

The only time they can cooperate enough to actually pass a bill is when it's one to grant themselves a pay raise.

Bearcat99
02-23-2008, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
As usual, when we need brilliance we get fabricated "feel good" candidates run through the processing mill like salami: a nice black guy with a great spiel but a complete question mark in managerial skills; a shrill, low-ball playing harridan who has no competency except in supporting a satyriac husband through one self-inflicted debacle after another; and a dirty old party politician with anger "issues," and, possibly, some corruption "issues" which may knock him out of the contest.

Whoeeee. The last time we had two brains running was in 1960---JFK vs Nixon. It's all been downhill since.

I'll give Bam Bam the benefit of the doubt---he has about as much experience as Lincoln had when he came into office, but, the nation paid dearly while he gained experience and stature in office. The Presidency should not be a training ground.

Simply put, the best and the brightest do not run, but, then, they never have.

I hear a lot about Obama's experience.. and his "feel good" talk.... I think that his management skills are there for anyone who wants to see them. What is wrong with thinking in a different direction. Either way it goes it will be a tough row to hoe. Hopefully we all will have to bear some of the burden and this wont be the nail in the coffin of the middle class in the US. I also hear a lot about President Bush. While it is true that his administration will go down as one of the worse in US history.. I think that congress has just a smuch blame as him... These guys acted like frat boys on a beer keg.


Originally posted by Irish_Rogues:
Name one US pres that was worse than Bush. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Jimmy Carter for starters...[/QUOTE]

Carter was also a victim of the times. The gas crisis of the 70s was caused more by the actions of Britain & the US in the region in the 30s & 40s... and the US meddling in the region is still goong on to this day...


Originally posted by bun-bun195333:
I bought my house during the Carter years. The interest rate was 11.5% with a 25% downpayment. We waited in long lines to buy gas on alternate days based on whether our license plate ended even or odd. The economy sucked while Carter was president.
Jimmy Carter was the worst president in modern times.
Take a look at the way the voters responded in 1980.
Carter/Reagan electoral map 1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ElectoralCollege1980-Large.png)
Screw world opinion.

How much of that could be attributed to the Nixon Ford years? It is kinda hard (not impossible mind you) for a one term President to really screw things up especially to the point where they are now. Whoever wins this election.. things will continue to get worse before they get better...... especially if the politics as usual modus operandi goes on instead of actually having a government that looks out for the people. I too am disappointed by the Bush administration ... but the President is one guy.... and it takes an inept congress & senate as well to get things to where we are now..... get all 3 factors aligned at the same time.. and you have the current state of affairs...


Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
It strikes me that Carter didn't do anything he wasn't advised to do, he was a solid American citizen who cared about America, he just didn't fit in! And his brother Billy didn't help much.
Blameing Carter alone for what happened in this country, instead of where the blame should be, seems a little obsurd to me!
Carter grew peanuts, not oil! think about it!

Exactly....

Huxley_S
02-23-2008, 01:34 PM
I think that either Hillary or Obama in the White House, combined with a Democrat-controlled Congress will certainly bring about change. Our taxes will change (they will go up), our health care system will change (it will be socialized with no way of paying for it, likely meaning poorer care overall), our foreign policy will change (we will abandon what few allies we have left in the name of political expediency), we'll likely give Communist China most-favored-nation trading status (meaning an even higher trade imbalance) and lastly, we will enter a recession no matter who is in charge and recover from it after a year or two (such things tend to be cyclical). And the Dems will take credit for it.

Considering that the Democrat base represents blue collar workers and unions who happen to be the people who are losing out most from jobs being exported to China, your comments make no sense.

I would expect Dems to turn around some of these get-rich quick policies of the Bush admin, like outsourcing to foreign countries rather than the other way around.

Regarding healthcare, it seems that one of the greatest problems facing US companies at the moment is having to pay for healthcare and benefits for employees in lack of any state funded system. General Motors almost went under due to the strain of paying these huge bills and still may. Companies having to pay for their employees healthcare is massive corporation tax in all but name. While healthcare was relatively cheap it wasn't such a problem, but now that private healthcare has become so expensive it is going to put European, Japanese, Canadian etc companies at a big competitive advantage since they don't have to worry about these expenses.

As for taxes, I doubt that anyone earning under $50K will see their taxes go up one cent under a democratic government. There are richer pickings from those war profiteers who have done very nicely thank you under Bush.

norman888
02-23-2008, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:

I would expect Dems to turn around some of these get-rich quick policies of the Bush admin, like outsourcing to foreign countries rather than the other way around.



I think you need to do some real research on outsourcing instead of reading your anti-Bush sources. I guess since I make >$75K and saw my taxes go down and my Stock portfolio go up during Bush that I'm a War profiteer? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
When Obama wins my taxes WILL go up. We can't even fund Social Security and the Dems want to Nationalize medicine!? Are they CRAZY??

Huxley_S
02-23-2008, 02:01 PM
We can't even fund Social Security and the Dems want to Nationalize medicine!? Are they CRAZY??

Every other industrialized country in the world has managed to do it and all the evidence is beginning to suggest that rather than being crazy, they were very smart to do so. As I mentioned, private healthcare is turning out to be a very expensive 'tax' that is bringing major US companies to their knees.

Messaschnitzel
02-23-2008, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by norman888:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Huxley_S:

I would expect Dems to turn around some of these get-rich quick policies of the Bush admin, like outsourcing to foreign countries rather than the other way around.



I think you need to do some real research on outsourcing instead of reading your anti-Bush sources. I guess since I make >$75K and saw my taxes go down and my Stock portfolio go up during Bush that I'm a War profiteer? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
When Obama wins my taxes WILL go up. We can't even fund Social Security and the Dems want to Nationalize medicine!? Are they CRAZY?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

norman888,

Do you work in manufacturing?

Irish_Rogues
02-23-2008, 06:05 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Everybody pays for health care, even when the governments "give it away for free".

Almost all governments money comes from taxes, this is grade school stuff that everyone forgets. What are the confiscitory rates across the pond? I'm pretty sure it would make even ole copperhead think he's getting a bargain. And even at those rates you see articles all the time about how the "benefits" are going to have to be scaled back because they are not sustainable. Just because the government is supposedly picking up the tab, they are just like your neighbor with out a job. They need you to spot them the jingle as they're a bit short.

Also, anyone that thinks their taxes aren't going to go up because the government is going to make "rich people" and corporations pay their "fair share" fail to see the big picture. When you raise taxes on businesses and/or people who own businesses they don't just sit and cry, they raise prices. This is really basic stuff. So in effect the taxes get passed off on the consumer, the little guy.

There are no free lunches in the real world, ever, there is always a price to be paid.

"Broken window fallacy."

This is a story where a vandal smashes a baker's window. A person in the crowd that gathered tells the baker there's a good side to his misfortune. It will create a job for the glazer and when the glazer spends the $100 there will be multiplier effects that stimulate the village's economy. That's the seen. The unseen is that the baker would have spent that $100 to buy a suit and it would have created employment for the tailor. Had the vandal not struck, the baker would have had a window plus a suit; now he has just a window. Of course, there's greater employment for glazers but at the expense of less employment for tailors.

jarink
02-23-2008, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Huxley_S:
Considering that the Democrat base represents blue collar workers and unions who happen to be the people who are losing out most from jobs being exported to China, your comments make no sense.

The Clintons have a long and well-documented history of being very, shall we say "friendly" with the Communist Chinese. If outsourcing and trade imbalances are to be blamed on the Republicans, then why was the PRC (People's Republic of China) not granted MFN status when they controlled both Congress and the White House?


Originally posted by Huxley_S:
As for taxes, I doubt that anyone earning under $50K will see their taxes go up one cent under a democratic government. There are richer pickings from those war profiteers who have done very nicely thank you under Bush.

What's really odd is that I'm not a Democrat despite only making about $50k a year (with a family of 5 and no, my wife doesn't work). My taxes haven't gone up one cent in the past 8 years, so why would voting Democrat be a 'change' I need?

So, now anyone that is successful in business is a "war profiteer"? Words devised to create an emotional response, with little proof to support it. Doesn't anyone remember what happened when taxes were lowered during the Reagan years? Only one of the country's strongest economic turnarounds ever.

Some of the main causes of the high costs of health care are malpractice suits and laws requiring people to be treated regardless of ability to pay (Guess who gets their bill? The ones with insurance who can pay. Thus, prices changed to insurance companies are artificially high. This is passed on to the consumer by way of higher insurance premiums.) Anyone who has served in the military can tell you what socialized medicine could be like in the US. Occasionally really good, but by and large it would mean a lower quality of overall care for individuals. (I still remember the hospital staff at Ft. Campbell telling my wife, who had just delivered a baby, that she would be responsible for sweeping and mopping her own room.)

FA_Retro-Burn
02-23-2008, 06:25 PM
Sure, I want a president that wants more government, more taxes, and less freedom. Let's vote Democrat so hell can come and go quicker than the rhino Republicans. Where can I get government assistance?

horseback
02-23-2008, 08:36 PM
1. Health care is an absolutely bogus issue. Anything that is insured tends to increase in price; you have to pay that insurance agent for his 'services', and no one I've ever met had any loss of sleep about overcharging an insurer for anything. Oddly enough, that leads to higher (overcharged) prices becoming the norm for those without insurance, too.

I paid $10.00 for an hour long doctor's office visit (over 45 minutes of which were actually spent in direct contact with the doctor) in 1974. The Doctor looked me in the eye when the fee was mentioned, and apologized for for having to charge so much. What would that same visit cost me now, if you factor in my employer's contributions, my healthcare contributions and copay? Would my 'healthcare provider' have the big brass ones to look me in the eye and ask for that cash up front, if he had to?

2. Carter was absolutely the worst president of my lifetime; his incompetence was compounded by the Democratic monopoly of the Congress from 1954 to 1994. The simple fact is that Bush takes a beating just because he isn't Ronald Reagan, and he wants a whole lot to get along with the Dems, who have maintained a scorched earth policy since they lost control of the Congress back in Clinton's first term.

Besides, who else was there? I shudder to think what might have happened with clots like Gore or Kerrey in the White House the last eight years.

3. Obama makes me extremely nervous because he's said very little about what he'd actually do to bring about his 'change'. What he has said is that he would give status and legitimacy to the leaders of countries like Iran, North Korea and Syria by going to them and asking them to play nice, and that he would consider bombing allies like Pakistan who have the unmitigated gall to expect us to respect their sovereignty.

The rest is a blank slate that anyone can write their expectations upon.

No thanks. I'll be holding my nose and voting for McCain (and praying fervently that his VP choice is actually competent rather than politically expedient).

cheers

horseback