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Manu-6S
03-08-2007, 06:58 AM
"The Big Show" - Part 2

In one of the last chapters of this part (the third starting from the last, don't know the translation of my book chapter) P.C.'s squad (6 SpitIX) is hunting over Beny-Bocage when, at 3000m they see 2 FW190 flying at SL.

They chased them but after the the fight the 2 FW190 escaped: not before downing some Spits.

I saw the Anderson's story really interested some of you: what do you thing about this Clostermann's account?

Obviouly this can interest only the guy who own the book, since I can't write all the chapter here.

In Il2 is possible for an Anton to do what those german's pilots did without be killed?

tools4foolsA
03-08-2007, 11:41 AM
Dunno exactly which part you are referring, bit too vague to me and don't want to go through the entire book to find it again.

Just finished reading his book and have to say I was impressed.

Some details are wrong (and have to be taken careful therefore) but he mentions at the end of the book better not to change for the sake of keeping it as close as possible as it was written during the war.

What impressed me as well was how he respected the opposing men and machines - it was sure no piece of cake for him and his guys to get their victories and often he found himself in real bad situations grateful that the sky was suddenly empty of enemy planes. Does never sound like a one sided duck shooting. Same goes for strafing of ground targets, flak was feared and effective.
Losses of the units he served in were heavy, stunningly heavy.
Enemy fighter planes, both 109's and 190's, were always considered as very dangerous, he never thought his machines being vastly superior.

And he had luck, a lot of luck. Gets hit many times by both planes and flak, crash landings, etc...lifes to tell the story!

****

Insuber
03-08-2007, 12:06 PM
I enjoyed as well his book, shortly before Clostermann's departure last summer.
An impressing part is when he follows a lone unaware FW deep into enemy's territory, slowly gaining until the easy kill. He then reverts to his base, but he suddenly discovers three other FW's on his trail, this time slowly gaining on him. Almost panicking he hits the emergency boost for the first time, and what follows describes the surprising response of the Sabre ...

Regards,
Insuber

ViktorViktor
03-08-2007, 12:29 PM
I have read Closterman's book, but it's been about 2 years. I'll try to find the passage you're referring to this weekend.

Yeah, it was tough sledding in Closterman's Tempest squadron. Seems like they lost 4 out every 5 pilots while Closterman was there.

No wonder he had those flying accidents right after the war ended - all that trauma started kicking in once he got a chance to sit back and relax.

zugfuhrer
03-08-2007, 12:55 PM
Clostermans book is fiction. Lots of things like the killing of Novotny, the kill of "Graffman", the time and dates of other things that can easily beeing checked is wrong.
Dont use Clostermans book in any serious documentations.

DIRTY-MAC
03-08-2007, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Clostermans book is fiction. Lots of things like the killing of Novotny, the kill of "Graffman", the time and dates of other things that can easily beeing checked is wrong.
Dont use Clostermans book in any serious documentations.

Yes you can.
In the old prints its some faults,
but in the latest edition its been corrected.

Buy the latest edition and it will even explain some of the faults.
otherwise its probably one if not the most important dokumentation that describes a pilots life during WWII

Whirlin_merlin
03-08-2007, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Clostermans book is fiction. Lots of things like the killing of Novotny, the kill of "Graffman", the time and dates of other things that can easily beeing checked is wrong.
Dont use Clostermans book in any serious documentations.

The only important mistake in the book is that Le Grand Charles was infact not a Tempest V but a Hurricane IIC.

general_kalle
03-08-2007, 02:06 PM
well if the 190's did a loop and a head on on the spits they could shoot down one of them and then escape.

theoretically

VW-IceFire
03-08-2007, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
"The Big Show" - Part 2

In one of the last chapters of this part (the third starting from the last, don't know the translation of my book chapter) P.C.'s squad (6 SpitIX) is hunting over Beny-Bocage when, at 3000m they see 2 FW190 flying at SL.

They chased them but after the the fight the 2 FW190 escaped: not before downing some Spits.

I saw the Anderson's story really interested some of you: what do you thing about this Clostermann's account?

Obviouly this can interest only the guy who own the book, since I can't write all the chapter here.

In Il2 is possible for an Anton to do what those german's pilots did without be killed?
What was the page number and was this in the new or old version of the book?

DFLion
03-08-2007, 04:50 PM
Hi Manu-6S,
The chapter that refers to this action in the original 'Big Show' is called 'An Unnecessary Disaster'. The Chapters are not numbered in his original book.
I have simulated this action in my campaign 'The Big Show' - mission no.28 refers - here are the mission notes -
Name BigShow 28
An Unnecessary Disaster
Descripton Red and Blue sections will attack German road convoys, near the Benny Bocage, which are trying to re-supply their Panzer tanks with fuel and ammunition.
Date: 23 Jun 1944
Time: 1730
Weather: Poor
Cloud Height: 4,300feet (1300m)
Distance to Target: 20 miles
Fly one four plane and one two plane section to seek-out and destroy any German supply convoys near the Beny Bocage. 30gal drop tanks are to be carried.
Mission notes: This was a particularly sad mission for Clostermann and his Squadron Commander Maxie Sutherland - losing two of their best pilots -'Jimmy' and 'Mouse Manson'. Another two pilots were also shot down during this action.
The two Spitfire sections soon spotted a German road convoy being closely escorted by two Focke Wulfs. The Focke Wulfs immediately attacked, quickly shooting down the two new pilots (including the new Wing Commander). After a desperate fight with the Focke Wulfs, Clostermann soon realised that the German pilots were 'real pros'. (They may have been Oberst 'Pips' Priller and his wingman - who were in action in the area at the time).
As the fight progressed, both 'Jimmy' and 'Mouse Manson' were shot down and killed, with Clostermann just getting away by 'the skin of his teeth'.

Zugfuhrer - I would be interested in learning about the real stories behind Maj.Graff (Mission 6 refers) and Walter Nowotny (Mission 42 refers) im my campaign 'The Big Show'.

DFLion

Manu-6S
03-09-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by DFLion:
Hi Manu-6S,
The chapter that refers to this action in the original 'Big Show' is called 'An Unnecessary Disaster'. The Chapters are not numbered in his original book.
I have simulated this action in my campaign 'The Big Show' - mission no.28 refers - here are the mission notes -
Name BigShow 28
An Unnecessary Disaster
Descripton Red and Blue sections will attack German road convoys, near the Benny Bocage, which are trying to re-supply their Panzer tanks with fuel and ammunition.
Date: 23 Jun 1944
Time: 1730
Weather: Poor
Cloud Height: 4,300feet (1300m)
Distance to Target: 20 miles
Fly one four plane and one two plane section to seek-out and destroy any German supply convoys near the Beny Bocage. 30gal drop tanks are to be carried.
Mission notes: This was a particularly sad mission for Clostermann and his Squadron Commander Maxie Sutherland - losing two of their best pilots -'Jimmy' and 'Mouse Manson'. Another two pilots were also shot down during this action.
The two Spitfire sections soon spotted a German road convoy being closely escorted by two Focke Wulfs. The Focke Wulfs immediately attacked, quickly shooting down the two new pilots (including the new Wing Commander). After a desperate fight with the Focke Wulfs, Clostermann soon realised that the German pilots were 'real pros'. (They may have been Oberst 'Pips' Priller and his wingman - who were in action in the area at the time).
As the fight progressed, both 'Jimmy' and 'Mouse Manson' were shot down and killed, with Clostermann just getting away by 'the skin of his teeth'.

Zugfuhrer - I would be interested in learning about the real stories behind Maj.Graff (Mission 6 refers) and Walter Nowotny (Mission 42 refers) im my campaign 'The Big Show'.

DFLion

Thanks DFLion: it's the right chapter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Here I would to highlight that the 2 FW were in a double disadvantage since they were lower and chased.

It could be a headon after the candle, but Clostermann says that they turned against the Spits too (surely not so tight, but still turning).

Now I don't know if the best FW190's virtual pilot can do such things.

I still think that FW could turn fighting, not so tight like Spitfire, of course, but they didn't fight like we do in the game... because they didn't retain energy only in a straight path.

Manu-6S
03-09-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
What was the page number and was this in the new or old version of the book?

My book is in italian and was printed one year ago.

Don't know if the page number ramains the same, since the chapter title seems different as I would translate it...

dieg777
03-09-2007, 02:58 AM
here is a english good refrence for prillers operations

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jg-26-Top-Guns-Luftwaffe/dp/0804110506

full of mission details- at the end of the war
it seems they were mainly involved against jabo operations and not so much against the bomber streams

alert in the west by willi heilman is good for this as well

DFLion
03-09-2007, 05:08 PM
Hi Manu-6S and dieg777,
Firstly, dieg thanks for the info on the book JG26 'Top Guns of The Luftwaffe' - I will get a copy from Amazon and study Prillers ops. - could be a campaign in it?
In regard to the Beny-Bocage dog fight Manu, there is absolutely no doubt that the Focke-Wulf was a formidible fighter in the hands of an expert fighter pilot, as you can see in this mission. I was only guessing that Priller may have been involved, as he was definitely in the area at the time - he and his wingman were expert Fock-Wulf pilots. Four Spitfire pilots lost their lives on that day, so whoever they were flying against, could really handle their Fock-Wulfs.
In my mission, the Focke-Wulf AI aircraft are 'Aces' so you have to watch out, though by good, no mistake, dog fighting, you can get on top of them.
DFLion

Insuber
03-10-2007, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by dieg777:
here is a english good refrence for prillers operations

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jg-26-Top-Guns-Luftwaffe/dp/0804110506

full of mission details- at the end of the war
it seems they were mainly involved against jabo operations and not so much against the bomber streams

alert in the west by willi heilman is good for this as well


Thx for the hint Dieg! I've already ordered my copy from Amazon ... it looks good stuff.

Rgrds,
Insuber