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Grand_Armee
09-22-2006, 01:54 PM
I usually wait until a sim goes into the bargain bin before I purchase it, so I'm only just new to Il-2 Sturmovik. I have both upgrades I can find for the game.

I have a few questions I could really use help with. I've only been flying the campaign on the German side.

First of all, I can't seem to fly anything but the bf-109 in the campaign. Does anyone know how to change that, or is it hard coded into the missions?

Secondly, I know the bf-109 wasn't good in turns at all. However, I find it's slower than everything except Russian Bombers. The only way I can catch any Russian fighter is to outguess the AI enough to get the Commie when he's in a turn. I can't even run away from a fight with a p-39.

Thank you in advance for your kind help. I don't know that I'll buy FB or any other games if I'm stuck in this kind of situation.

tigertalon
09-22-2006, 02:00 PM
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable down low. Take them up above 4k, and you will be faster and faster climbing with competitive 109s. They (the russians) also break up rather quickly in a dive (but I guess this isn't implemented in AI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif)

Don't bother being outflown by AI, they cheat a lot. They don't overheat or blackout, they don't break up at high speeds...

Hanglands
09-22-2006, 02:00 PM
Hi there,

IIRC (and maybe I dont)When you select a country for a campaign, you are obviously selecting Germany, then there should be a drop down menu for aircraft type, you are just taking the one thats displayed, the 109. But there are others in the menu.

As for turning in a 109, try climbing turns, the 109 climbs brilliantly well. or if you really need to TURN TURN TURN, drop combat flaps. Also, if youre really going full throttle and turn, you are just going to draw a big loop, ease off the throttle a bit.

Hope you enjoy your introduction to IL2

edited for atroshus spellink

KaleunFreddie
09-22-2006, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Grand_Armee:
First of all, I can't seem to fly anything but the bf-109 in the campaign. Does anyone know how to change that, or is it hard coded into the missions?
In choosing you career you have a choice of fighters, fighter-bombers, bombers. You have to learn which squadrons have which planes. Once that is done the planes you choose are of historical availability - the ME109 was everywhere and only available up till about late'41/42 when the Fw190 appeared



Secondly, I know the bf-109 wasn't good in turns at all. However, I find it's slower than everything except Russian Bombers. The only way I can catch any Russian fighter is to outguess the AI enough to get the Commie when he's in a turn. I can't even run away from a fight with a p-39.
There are only a few planes that can out-turn the ME109 - count them on one hand - of these you only have to worry about one, the Yak-3.
It also sounds like you have a very early version of IL2 - if so practice on this one as the later versions are.. a lot more difficult.

Welcome, persevere and good luck
KF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mandrill7
09-22-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by KaleunFreddie:
There are only a few planes that can out-turn the ME109 - count them on one hand - of these you only have to worry about one, the Yak-3.Welcome, persevere and good luck
KF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ahah! A man who laughs at Spitfires and La-7's!

F6_Ace
09-22-2006, 02:53 PM
Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all.

Hanglands
09-22-2006, 02:54 PM
Hurricanes out-turn Spitfires. Spitfires out-turn 109s.

anarchy52
09-22-2006, 03:02 PM
You can outturn any AI easily just go low and do a sustained low speed turn. If you're going vs human don't do that.

109 turns poorly compared to anything russian. In fact I could count planes that don't outturn 109 on one hand: P-47, Pe-2, A-20.
anything else depends on particular model of 109, fuel load etc.

VW-IceFire
09-22-2006, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bogus. Russian planes perform to a set of specifications just as the rest of them do. Most of the Russian planes do not outperform their German counterparts or their Western Allied counter parts.

All of the 109 models are faster and climb quicker than all of the comparable year Russian variants. In some cases such as with the La-5FN and the La-7 the low altitude speed and climb is better but when you take them up high they have no chance. Fly the Yak-9, Yak-9D, Yak-1, or LaGG-3, and you're flying pigs in the sky compared to the beautifully handling 109F-4, G-2, and G-6 series.

Trouble is...you tell people that...they ignore you and you find them doing 360 degree turns at 50 meters with a gaggle of Yaks on their tail and scream how overmodeled the Russian planes are.

In general the Russian planes are at a disadvantage until late in the war. The 1944 versions (include the mislabled La-5FN 1943 as a 1944 plane) and 1945 versions can hold their own...but only upto about 4000m then it gets dicey and by 7000m the German planes have complete superiority.

Most of the time...the actual different in performance between these planes is not the aircraft themselves but the pilots flying them. A vet pilot to the series can fly faster, climb quicker, and generally outmanuver a new pilot. The new pilot will be quick to claim bias of the planes...but the real truth is in understanding what each plane is, what its performance envelope is, and how to exploit your advantages against the enemy.

-HH-Quazi
09-22-2006, 03:22 PM
The reason you are stuck in this situation is because you are not flying FB\AEP\PF but the original IL2 Sturmovik. FM's and DM's have been changed from the original IL2 Sturmovik. So until you decide to spend, or until you find this sim merged into a bargin bin, this is what it is. Although I thourghly enjoyed the original IL2 Sturmovik and still have it installed. I like to play it from time to time to see just how much better we have it now.

Vipez-
09-22-2006, 03:24 PM
Agree with Icefire..

But beware the Yak9U - Russian Mustang.. the best russian propeller driven aircraft.. Does not handle as well as Yak-3 or La-7, but speed is life.

F6_Ace
09-22-2006, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bogus. Russian planes perform to a set of specifications just as the rest of them do. Most of the Russian planes do not outperform their German counterparts or their Western Allied counter parts.

All of the 109 models are faster and climb quicker than all of the comparable year Russian variants. In some cases such as with the La-5FN and the La-7 the low altitude speed and climb is better but when you take them up high they have no chance. Fly the Yak-9, Yak-9D, Yak-1, or LaGG-3, and you're flying pigs in the sky compared to the beautifully handling 109F-4, G-2, and G-6 series.

Trouble is...you tell people that...they ignore you and you find them doing 360 degree turns at 50 meters with a gaggle of Yaks on their tail and scream how overmodeled the Russian planes are.

In general the Russian planes are at a disadvantage until late in the war. The 1944 versions (include the mislabled La-5FN 1943 as a 1944 plane) and 1945 versions can hold their own...but only upto about 4000m then it gets dicey and by 7000m the German planes have complete superiority.

Most of the time...the actual different in performance between these planes is not the aircraft themselves but the pilots flying them. A vet pilot to the series can fly faster, climb quicker, and generally outmanuver a new pilot. The new pilot will be quick to claim bias of the planes...but the real truth is in understanding what each plane is, what its performance envelope is, and how to exploit your advantages against the enemy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you think that the P39N is realistic do you? Also, you've seen the charts of late - certain VVS perform 'optimistically' at least.
The Spitfire took the heat off the VVS forces...a smart move by Oleg really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tigertalon
09-22-2006, 04:07 PM
I'm completely with Ice on this one. I think this boards have come to conclusion that this sim favors stall fighting over energy one. That's it. Other than that russian fighters have all their historical disadvantages (apart from some 'exotic' features like a delta-titanium-kevlar-energyshield armour on Lagg3). Drag em up above 4k, they become sitting ducks. Can't follow u level, nor in a climb or dive. Fw190A6s is toying with FNs up there. Yaks are better alt performers, especially the U (like vipez said), but they handle worse. Russians historically WERE excellent in close dogfighting at low altitudes.

carguy_
09-22-2006, 04:13 PM
We have German and American aircraft modelled according to Soviet,German and American tests.Ao you can say every plane has performance based on all three of them.

Soviet planes however,don`t seem to be releated to any German/RAF tests...

Grand_Armee
09-22-2006, 04:22 PM
I'm usually not one to Tinker with files, but I did today, anyway. Most of the files in the campaign folder can be opened and modified. The main thing was finding models of later aircraft like the FW-190 the way it's typed up in the single missions folder. For instance I've taken the first mission at Smolensk and changed the bf-109 into the FW-190. Now, I'll see how it flies.

I still firmly believe that the bf-109 is underpowered in this game.

Bandit.426Cdn
09-22-2006, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Grand_Armee:
I'm usually not one to Tinker with files, but I did today, anyway. Most of the files in the campaign folder can be opened and modified. The main thing was finding models of later aircraft like the FW-190 the way it's typed up in the single missions folder. For instance I've taken the first mission at Smolensk and changed the bf-109 into the FW-190. Now, I'll see how it flies.

I still firmly believe that the bf-109 is underpowered in this game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

fordfan25
09-22-2006, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

waffen-79
09-22-2006, 04:57 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

so true, when a server has become a SpitFest, I ride a Yak-3P '45 to try and even things up

Grand_Armee
09-22-2006, 04:58 PM
How does the above statement go regarding Forgotten Battles?

VW-IceFire
09-22-2006, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bogus. Russian planes perform to a set of specifications just as the rest of them do. Most of the Russian planes do not outperform their German counterparts or their Western Allied counter parts.

All of the 109 models are faster and climb quicker than all of the comparable year Russian variants. In some cases such as with the La-5FN and the La-7 the low altitude speed and climb is better but when you take them up high they have no chance. Fly the Yak-9, Yak-9D, Yak-1, or LaGG-3, and you're flying pigs in the sky compared to the beautifully handling 109F-4, G-2, and G-6 series.

Trouble is...you tell people that...they ignore you and you find them doing 360 degree turns at 50 meters with a gaggle of Yaks on their tail and scream how overmodeled the Russian planes are.

In general the Russian planes are at a disadvantage until late in the war. The 1944 versions (include the mislabled La-5FN 1943 as a 1944 plane) and 1945 versions can hold their own...but only upto about 4000m then it gets dicey and by 7000m the German planes have complete superiority.

Most of the time...the actual different in performance between these planes is not the aircraft themselves but the pilots flying them. A vet pilot to the series can fly faster, climb quicker, and generally outmanuver a new pilot. The new pilot will be quick to claim bias of the planes...but the real truth is in understanding what each plane is, what its performance envelope is, and how to exploit your advantages against the enemy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you think that the P39N is realistic do you? Also, you've seen the charts of late - certain VVS perform 'optimistically' at least.
The Spitfire took the heat off the VVS forces...a smart move by Oleg really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I see a P-39N...I'm typically in a Bf109G-2 or a FW190A-4. Now I don't know everything about the G-2 but I know its one of the best liked 109s in the game and it may even be a bit optimistic itself...seeing as how well it can compete even in late war scenarios. So I see that P-39N-1...and I just laugh. Any hit from a MG151/20 that I make on the guy is going to criple him and a FW190A-4 will totally mess up a P-39 in a few quick hits. I feel sorry for the guy...

Now I haven't seen any charts telling me what the P-39N was like in VVS service but the 109G-2 and A-4 wipe the floor with the P-39, the Yak-1B, Yak-9, and Spitfire V in that time period. And above 5000m only the Spit V has any chance against the 109 or 190 as the P-39 and the Yaks are abysmal.

I love flying both sides of this time period actually because the aircraft are incredibly fun...but if I'm serious about scoring some kills the FW190A-4 is the absolute best choice with a higher top speed and far more firepower than anything else in 1942. And thats even with the knowledge that the A-4 is somewhat derated jabo variant.

So have you seen some charts of the P-39N and how it should really perform? I'm not really that impressed with it to be honest.

majnos64
09-22-2006, 05:52 PM
I think nobody mentioned here that russian planes have very bad maneuverability in high speeds 500+kph. And thats very bad even La-7 has those characteristics. Just take FW-190 which fly smoothly upto 850 kph. The only way how to engage energy fighting high speed german is to shot him in head-to-head combat but germans are more armed and armoured.

russian jaks are overmodeled - minimum of produced yaks had prototype's characteristics and engine failures(are not moddeled), surface of wings destroyed in high speeds(not modeled) etc etc

Interesting is that russian pilots loved western land-leased planes because of their reliability and no ace wanted to fly Yak before coming of Yak-3

carguy_
09-22-2006, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Now I haven't seen any charts telling me what the P-39N was like in VVS service but the 109G-2 and A-4 wipe the floor with the P-39, the Yak-1B, Yak-9, and Spitfire V in that time period. And above 5000m only the Spit V has any chance against the 109 or 190 as the P-39 and the Yaks are abysmal.


Performance wise yes,tactical wise - no.If you fight the G2 vs Soviet`42 planes,your server is wrong.G2 is rated `43Ata.Correct matchup is 109F4.Now tell me how this one feels.

VW-IceFire
09-22-2006, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Now I haven't seen any charts telling me what the P-39N was like in VVS service but the 109G-2 and A-4 wipe the floor with the P-39, the Yak-1B, Yak-9, and Spitfire V in that time period. And above 5000m only the Spit V has any chance against the 109 or 190 as the P-39 and the Yaks are abysmal.


Performance wise yes,tactical wise - no.If you fight the G2 vs Soviet`42 planes,your server is wrong.G2 is rated `43Ata.Correct matchup is 109F4.Now tell me how this one feels. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Same thing. The F-4 is a fantastic fighter to fly because of how much power it has, its strength in the verticle, and the power of the MG151/20. The F-2 is also great to fly but not as good as a fighter. Against the P-39...the F-4 is still just as dominant.

carguy_
09-22-2006, 06:11 PM
Ok I invite you to Airforce War then.We have those matchups there right now.20 alive sorties should not do you any trouble I see.

tigertalon
09-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Grand_Armee:
I still firmly believe that the bf-109 is underpowered in this game.

GrandArmee, offline is not the right place to draw such a conclusions. AI cheats a lot. When you will start flying online, you will find out that Bf109 series is one of the deadliest opponents you can meet, especially F4 in 1941 and G2 in 1942.

Keep in mind that german tactics differed from tactics of most of other air forces. They relied on speed, dive and climb. Like americans did. Bf109 is among the fastest, fastest climbing and fastest diving aircraft in ww2. It could outdive all russian fighters with ease, climbed better than most of them, and was at least as fast if not faster, plus with alt it gains performance while russians are loosing it.

These guidelines are mirrored in German fighters. Did you know that turning radius of the first prototype of Fw190 was roughly the same as the one of Bf110? Still, it was sufficient.

The term you should look at and learn about is 'energy figting' as opposed to 'turn/angles/stall fighting' which I assume you are practicing now. In a nutshell: Be higher, dive, shoot, CLIMB BACK UP (= don't turn with the enemy).

If you think 109 is weak, try P-51 versus german or japanese opponents.

P.S.: GrandArmee, check PM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
09-22-2006, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Ok I invite you to Airforce War then.We have those matchups there right now.20 alive sorties should not do you any trouble I see.
Never heard of Airforce war....

Is that a server or a competition? I'm not much of a competition pilot. Fly when I like.

20 alive sorties will depend a fair bit on who I'm flying with, how well I know them, and how good they are are clearing tails and helping out the group SA. When we talk fighter versus fighter we can be strictly academic but once you toss in a frenzy of fighting then all sorts of things happen. I still maintain that any well equipped group of 109F-4 pilots can beat a similarly equipped group of P-39N-1 pilots provided all of the usual things are present such as element of surprise, energy/altitude advantage, good day versus bad day and that in the opposite situation...the P-39N can give a good account but would not likely do as well.

Air combat isn't black and white either. I can shoot down 109F-4's in a P-39 just as well as I can do the opposite really. Depends on the situation. Still...if asked...109F-4 is the better plane.

F6_Ace
09-23-2006, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bogus. Russian planes perform to a set of specifications just as the rest of them do. Most of the Russian planes do not outperform their German counterparts or their Western Allied counter parts.

All of the 109 models are faster and climb quicker than all of the comparable year Russian variants. In some cases such as with the La-5FN and the La-7 the low altitude speed and climb is better but when you take them up high they have no chance. Fly the Yak-9, Yak-9D, Yak-1, or LaGG-3, and you're flying pigs in the sky compared to the beautifully handling 109F-4, G-2, and G-6 series.

Trouble is...you tell people that...they ignore you and you find them doing 360 degree turns at 50 meters with a gaggle of Yaks on their tail and scream how overmodeled the Russian planes are.

In general the Russian planes are at a disadvantage until late in the war. The 1944 versions (include the mislabled La-5FN 1943 as a 1944 plane) and 1945 versions can hold their own...but only upto about 4000m then it gets dicey and by 7000m the German planes have complete superiority.

Most of the time...the actual different in performance between these planes is not the aircraft themselves but the pilots flying them. A vet pilot to the series can fly faster, climb quicker, and generally outmanuver a new pilot. The new pilot will be quick to claim bias of the planes...but the real truth is in understanding what each plane is, what its performance envelope is, and how to exploit your advantages against the enemy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you think that the P39N is realistic do you? Also, you've seen the charts of late - certain VVS perform 'optimistically' at least.
The Spitfire took the heat off the VVS forces...a smart move by Oleg really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I see a P-39N...I'm typically in a Bf109G-2 or a FW190A-4. Now I don't know everything about the G-2 but I know its one of the best liked 109s in the game and it may even be a bit optimistic itself...seeing as how well it can compete even in late war scenarios. So I see that P-39N-1...and I just laugh. Any hit from a MG151/20 that I make on the guy is going to criple him and a FW190A-4 will totally mess up a P-39 in a few quick hits. I feel sorry for the guy...

Now I haven't seen any charts telling me what the P-39N was like in VVS service but the 109G-2 and A-4 wipe the floor with the P-39, the Yak-1B, Yak-9, and Spitfire V in that time period. And above 5000m only the Spit V has any chance against the 109 or 190 as the P-39 and the Yaks are abysmal.

I love flying both sides of this time period actually because the aircraft are incredibly fun...but if I'm serious about scoring some kills the FW190A-4 is the absolute best choice with a higher top speed and far more firepower than anything else in 1942. And thats even with the knowledge that the A-4 is somewhat derated jabo variant.

So have you seen some charts of the P-39N and how it should really perform? I'm not really that impressed with it to be honest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that the beer has worn off, I'm more inclined to agree with you as the P39 wasn't a good example for me to choose. I would still say that I wouldn't write a P39 off as easy meat, though, even in a 109G2 (which is a UFO anyway) or 190A4.

I do still stand by my previous post, however - from the charts posted on these forums over the years, there are very few occasions where one hasn't shown VVS aircraft performance to be 'ideal' whereas we have had excuses about why 'other plane xyz' didn't meet its test data.

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KaleunFreddie:
There are only a few planes that can out-turn the ME109 - count them on one hand - of these you only have to worry about one, the Yak-3.Welcome, persevere and good luck
KF http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ahah! A man who laughs at Spitfires and La-7's! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no Spitfires in the original IL2 Sim and the La7 is a very late fighter so...

joeap
09-23-2006, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif So I suppose a Brit or Yank developed game would be more objective?

JG52Karaya-X
09-23-2006, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by carguy_
Performance wise yes,tactical wise - no.If you fight the G2 vs Soviet`42 planes,your server is wrong.G2 is rated `43Ata.Correct matchup is 109F4.Now tell me how this one feels.

Our Bf109G2 has 1942 1.3ata performance (666km/h according to Russian tests - which is what you can reach ingame) even though the ata gauge ingame shows a value of 1.42

Same goes for the F4 btw, it has 1941 1.3ata performance (635km/h topspeed) but shows 1942 1.42 ata values on the gauge.

Don't always blindly believe what the instruments tell you...

Bearcat99
09-23-2006, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Grand_Armee:
I usually wait until a sim goes into the bargain bin before I purchase it, so I'm only just new to Il-2 Sturmovik. I have both upgrades I can find for the game.


Thats part of your problem. No offense but usually by the time a sim gets to the bargain bin much of it's probles are already worked out or totally de away with. I suggest you go to this site here and purchase te IL2 Complete Edition (http://www.gogamer.com/searchresults.htm?keywords=IL2+Complete&categoryId=444758&x=27&y=12) which is Forgotten Battles, The Aces Expansion Pack and Pacific Fighters all on one DVD and begin your assesment from there.

The claims of Russian bias asre just that... unsubstantiated claims. The sim is pretty layered and takes a while tomaster. I hear a lot of complaining from 109-190 drivers in here.... yet I see those planes performing well all the time online.... and off.

VW-IceFire
09-23-2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Now that the beer has worn off, I'm more inclined to agree with you as the P39 wasn't a good example for me to choose. I would still say that I wouldn't write a P39 off as easy meat, though, even in a 109G2 (which is a UFO anyway) or 190A4.

I do still stand by my previous post, however - from the charts posted on these forums over the years, there are very few occasions where one hasn't shown VVS aircraft performance to be 'ideal' whereas we have had excuses about why 'other plane xyz' didn't meet its test data.
Oh I don't completely write off any plane...if its got guns and a good pilot behind it...there's still a threat to be respected.

To be honest I've never seen any charts on Russian aircraft performance. The benefit of the Allied types it that we have tons of public declassified data so its easy for us to look at the data for a P-38 or a P-51 or a Spitfire. That is somewhat true of the Luftwaffe types as well. The Russian types on the other hand seem to not have that much public data.

But I still believe that you compare the performance of a like year Russian plane versus everything else and everything else is better. The Russian planes in general have few advantages until the really late war or at very low altitudes.

So what plane is obviously overmodeled? The La-7? I might agree with you there. Anything else?

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted Fri September 22 2006 13:00
Keep in mind that russian fighters are unbeatable


Also keep in mind that the developer is Russian. Don't expect Russian aircraft to be disadvantaged in too many ways - this is a game, after all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree

Russian planes break up at ridiculously low speeds, which makes them pretty useless for B&Z, you should try flying them sometime.

You never see anyone posting any data complaining about RUssian planes, becaue everyone is a Brit/Yank/German supporter and Russia comes last. (Big bad communists)

Maybe learn some Russian and go and read the Russian 1C forums, you will probably learn that there are as many complainers about the i16/Yak1 etc over there.

F6_Ace
09-23-2006, 09:56 AM
What the hell does their break up speed have to do with absolutely anything regarding bias? You may as well tell me that the Laurel and Hardy piano sketch wouldn't have worked if they'd used a trombone.

As you're clearly up on Russian and know all about what is being said over there, how about you translate? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ice - The Lagg3 DM is/was clearly incorrect aided only recently by it having 300kg added. Net result, not so many people flying them. There was a thread recently showing the DM of the Yak to be off, too. The La5FN is from the wrong year, as you've already pointed out, but it's something that a lot of map makers choose to ignore. Someone in another thread is claiming that the La5 has a superior turn rate than the 109 when it shouldn't have.

You've been around these forums for maybe as long as I have so I'm very surprised that you've missed the threads discussing the issues.

You may very well say that I need to prove those DM issues but most people playing this game for a long time now know what the score is. But, it's a bit like complaining that the P38 tail boom falls off with one hit. How do you ultimately prove it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 10:04 AM
Their break up speed put them at a massive disadvantage as you KNOW. You said - 'Dont expect Russian planes to be disadvataged in many ways'

This would be an easy thing for Oleg to change to make Russian plsnes 'instantly/covertly more competetive' and noone could proof him wrong, as break up speed is so random in real life.

As you prefer all the B7Z planes yourself, you KNOW that its a massive disadvantage having to slow yourself down in a dive at 650k when you need to zoom back up.

About seeing the Russian side - I am not the one claiming the game to be Russian biased, YOU are. You are the one who needs to see that the grass is not always oh-so-greener on the other side.

F6_Ace
09-23-2006, 10:06 AM
Yes, and you are saying that I am wrong because the break up speeds are low which makes them hard to bnz with.

I still ask you what the hell that has to do with bias?

Just refresh my memory, though, X - how long have you been playing this game?

And, I already know the disadvantages of bnz with certain planes..have you tried doing it in a 109 of late?

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 10:10 AM
About 4 years off line, Maybe a year online.

You said 'Dont expect Russian planes to be disadvantaged in many ways' - I just told you a MASSIVE disadvantage they have, and you said 'Thats doesnt count.'???

I think you need to explain just which Russian planes are overmodelled? Then look at German planes and list those that are overmodelled and compare.

F6_Ace
09-23-2006, 10:12 AM
But they did break up at relatively low speeds. So you'd expect them to.

What you wouldn't expect is for them to absorb 20mm hits all day or match 'ideal' data (well, we don't actually know what they match because Oleg never produced his sources) when other aircraft do not.

If you played offline for 4 years, how come you never made it to the forums? No internet connection?

As far as German planes go, the 109G2 is overmodelled but I don't think that any others are. Are you suggesting the 190 is overmodelled because it's principle advantage, it's roll rate, has been shown to be off by a royal mile. Or do you have other information?

Xiolablu3
09-23-2006, 10:17 AM
I never ever played online until my friend told me how good it was. He badgered me for ages.

I never even visited this forum, and offline I used to play with all the easy options on except realistic gunnery and vulnerablility - I am not sure what this has to do with anything.

I dont claim to know everything - But I DO fly both sides equally, as does Icefire, and I KNOW that the Russian planes are pretty poor in a lot of areas and have many disadvantages.

The fact that I prefer playing blue, mostly, cos the planes are better, speaks volumes to me. So when I see someone claiming that the Russian planes are better than they should be, but he himself obviously prefers FW190 and other blue planes, I get annoyed.

When I see you flying, you are almost ALWAYS B&Zing, I would like you to try this in a i16, lagg3, La5 or Yak9 sometime and see how you get on. (Yak9 has an elevator like the 109, and La5 breaks up often as you zoom down and get over 650k meaning you have to slow yourself down and this limits your zoom climb massivley.)

F6_Ace
09-23-2006, 10:25 AM
So, you can't name which planes are overmodelled then? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I used to fly Yaks and Laggs mostly when I first started out so don't give me the 'but you never fly VVS so how can you know' cobblers - it just doesn't wash. Again, that still doesn't have anything to do with bias.

The German planes are better only if you fly in a certain manner...and bnz was well known to be the most effective way of fighting because you can destroy an opponent without fear of comeback plus you can disengage at will. Again, that has NOTHING whatsoever do with whether an aircraft is overmodelled or not.

Look around the forums, X. It's not just me who thinks the VVS planes are overmodelled. Or do all the people making those claims also fly 190s? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Look for the charts because when you do find one where the VVS plane matches the expected data, you'll find its opponent falling short in some area.

While we're on the subject about who is right, I seem to recall you complaining about your Mustang wings falling off the other day whereas I managed to bag a few planes (including Ice, I might add) in the very same without losing a wing and while performing high speed bnz. You also told me that the 190s wings never fell off in high speed pullouts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As you have added something, I'm still perplexed as to how my liking bnz has anything to do with it. But, we have the 109, which was known to be used for bnz and turning, where you have to slow down below 650kmh because you cannot use the elevator unless you have your trim mapped to a giant pot.

Anyway, I suggest we take this to PM instead of completely hijacking the thread with our little tete-e-tete.

Heavy_Weather
09-23-2006, 11:57 AM
keep flyin' you'll get used to the game after a while, disregard most of the tangents in this thread, trust me, you'll get used to the game after some practice.

Targ
09-23-2006, 01:50 PM
It's the man not the machine.
Practice makes perfect.
Blah blah blah.
Keep flying and after a time you will get better and start whoopoing up on the AI, than you will go online and understand just how easy the AI were. If your pride and ego can handle the whoop up you will get during this learning curve than you might become a good virtual pilot in this game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also, the 109 is a great early war plane and is one of the best to fly, so it is you and not the 109 that is having issues. Dont turn so much with the ratas and other early war russian planes and keep your speed up and all will be well.
As far as throwing a 190 into the early war mix on the eastern fron, you will rule! It does not belong there but whatever floats your boat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MaxMhz
09-23-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Grand_Armee:
I usually wait until a sim goes into the bargain bin before I purchase it, so I'm only just new to Il-2 Sturmovik. I have both upgrades I can find for the game.

I have a few questions I could really use help with. I've only been flying the campaign on the German side.

First of all, I can't seem to fly anything but the bf-109 in the campaign. Does anyone know how to change that, or is it hard coded into the missions?

Secondly, I know the bf-109 wasn't good in turns at all. However, I find it's slower than everything except Russian Bombers. The only way I can catch any Russian fighter is to outguess the AI enough to get the Commie when he's in a turn. I can't even run away from a fight with a p-39.

Thank you in advance for your kind help. I don't know that I'll buy FB or any other games if I'm stuck in this kind of situation.

You might want to use elevator/aeleron trim at the same time as stick movement. In IL-2 Sturmovik trim was instantaneous and had much more effect than in FB+

Bargain bin or not the ol' Sturmo is still a great WW2 combat sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif