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Karkadann
11-01-2004, 09:20 PM
I have been trying for four days to have fun

If I fly campaign missions, the AI gets almost every single kill - some AI pilots on my side will get 4 or 5 kills in a mission, while I get 1 or none

So I decided to search the forum and found some tips on how to get better at gunnery

I can shoot ground targets virtually without a problem

I set up a mission to take out four JU88 by myself

I start the flight and adjust elevator trim, and the rest of it appears to take care of itself

I have an X45, I have all three axes (pitch roll and yaw) set to 0, 1, 3, 9, 19, 30, 45, 60, 80, 100 and no dead zone, no filtering, and I feel like I have pretty good control - the plane isn't jerking around all over when I am lining up for the shot

The problem is getting lined up for the shot...

I inevitably get stuck on their 6 or I overshoot - I just suck - period - I seem to constantly misjudge where I should be before the fact, and end up constantly attempting to adjust when it is too late (obviously without much success)

I can't seem to wrap my head around leading the right way

In real life, I have several firearms and can pick the head off a grouse at 50 yards, but in IL2 FB, I can't shoot to save my life

Once in a while I'll get right up close, conditions will be just right, I'll let a burst go (flying an L5, I think it is called, with only wing mounted cannons) and the JU88 will go up in flames, either from a good shot right in the fuselage in front of the tail, or by taking off a wing, or by setting an engine on fire

Mostly, however, I end up TRYING to get in position, only to fail, more than miserably, and I am not one to give up - I am very good at 'games' and I flew a fair bit of Falcon 4 before, but obviously gunnery is completely different than missiles - yet I am more than just frustrated - I am upset - that shouldn't be happening in a 'game', call it a sim or not

I am lost. I am ticked off. I have searched and read and studied and I still have nothing to show for it, except what almost seems to be a lucky shot once in a while (although, when it actually happens, it is what I intended - but the problem is, I don't usually end up with what I intend)

Am I just not seeing far enough past the end of my nose? Am I maybe not looking far enough ahead at the big picture?

I HATE losing, especially to a computer - and I am obviously not taking this well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There must be something I can do to get better at this...

I realize it takes a while to master it - if it was easy, everyone would do it - and I realize that my accuracy won't be 100%, but am I supposed to be satisfied with getting 1 kill out of 8 enemies, and letting my AI teammates get the rest of the kills? Or what about not getting any kills at all?

In campaign, I have 9 kills, I think, in 18 or 19 sorties - not bad I guess - I mean, I know this is a sim, not a game, so it isn't all just about shooting everything, but is it meant to be so bloody frustrating?

And please, I already know that IF I ever get to be good enough, the frustration will melt away, and all my hard work will mean all that much more, and the success will be that much more meaningful, but what is it that makes a good fighter pilot accurate?

What is it that makes the true aces, aces - I mean, I'm sure it was a LOT harder for them in war, in real life, when their lives depended on it - yet that doesn't make it any easier - and it isn't like those aces got millions of chances to practice before they went out and did the real thing - there were no sims back then - and I'm sure the were limited by their resources in the amount of simulated dogfights and other aerial gunnery they could actually practice before combat...

Am I just expecting too much? Is it the same for everyone?

I have read tips from 'masters' who make it sound very easy - and I know the JU88 isn't the easiest thing to take down with an L5, but it is doable - yet when I fire my rounds, thinking I am in place, and pause it, then check the damage I have done as I fly past, I note my aim is off, so I adjust next time, and still I am off, and so forth - I either miss completely when I think I should be hitting, or I hit the wingtip when I intended to hit the cockpit, and so on...

Getting closer helps, but then I get shredded - and if I go high and come down fast, that is where the problem of not knowing how well to lead comes in

Let me guess, the answer is, it takes a lot of practice

Still, shouldn't it be fun in the meantime?

/sigh

TheJoyStick
11-01-2004, 09:25 PM
Not unless you enjoy being shot down..


It'll come in time. 4 or 5 days is about .00003443% of the time it's gunna take to become super-adept in the game.

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 09:25 PM
Not that it matters, but I realized my axes were a bit skewed so I changed the 19 to 18 on all three axes

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 09:31 PM
But I don't get shot down often - that isn't the problem - I have pretty good SA, and when I lose it (lets say my hat throws my view far out of whack, then I pause it and get SA again)

Am I talking about become super adept? That isn't meant sarcastically, that is meant realistically - am I expecting too much at the start? I didn't just start playing a few days ago - started a few weeks ago, and I have been 'ok' since I started - but the past few days is when I started to really try to figure out why I am so pathetic at it - and I hate not knowing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What should I be expecting as a rookie - am I on track or on par with other people, for getting 9 kills in 18 or 19 missions? (I did have to repeat some of those missions more than once, because I got stupid and stuck to the AI's tail and followed him, trying to line up guns, but instead ended up getting shot down - I know, don't follow on his six for more than a couple of seconds, if at all - too much armor, and you don't want to get stuck in a furball - even if we're just talking about a fighter with less armor)

I guess the biggest problem is that I am trying to come in from above, I will fly almost parallel to them, until I see 1.5 or so on their name (I fly with tags for now - I suck enough with them, can't imagine without) and then turn into them, picking up speed as I go, but as I get close, I lose my sense of where I should be

If only there were a simple answer to that one

T_O_A_D
11-01-2004, 09:37 PM
Don't sweat it. In real life you would be an ace with over 5 kills. The AI always steal my kills. Matter afact so do my Online buddies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I'm a lousy shot and if I stay long enough to hose the target I get shot down. So I just take what I get and move on.

h009291
11-01-2004, 09:39 PM
I wouldn't worry about not being "good" at a video game ... being good in REAL life is what matters.

Although many in here feel they are superior due to their "imaginary game skills" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Tully__
11-01-2004, 09:46 PM
Don't be discouraged. Some here have become good shots more quickly, but others took longer than you seem to be taking.

If you feel like doing more reading you might like to skim through the articles at SimHQ's Air Combat Library (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html). I'd particularly recommend at this stage the series of 4 articles titled "It's all a matter of perspective".

I further note you're using Saitek's X-45. Have you tried assigning one of the hat switches to mouse emulation instead of using the snap views? I think you'll like it if you try. You may also find that the settings you're using are not ideal. Read the article "Joysticks & FB" linked under my signature picture, particularly the section on setting sensitivity. The settings listed as "The Author's" are what I use on my X-45. Don't be afraid to experiement with them a bit either, individual preferences vary.

Oh, one more thing. If you feel you're going to overshoot, pull up before you reach your target without reducing throttle, even if it means giving up the shot, then roll over and pull back down for another pass. This is called a high yo-yo. It allows you a second oppurtunity at the target without backing off the throttle and without overshooting.

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 09:47 PM
Thanks T_O_A_D

I figured that would be the answer

I have been trying to convince myself that is good enough, but it isn't for me

It is like playing guitar - most people can learn to play well enough to impress 90% of the people out there, but very few people will do what it takes to figure out how to get to be good enough to impress the other 10%, including impressing themselves - getting to be a master on guitar takes a LOT more work than getting to that 80% on the guitar that will impress that 90% of the people, and I want to do better than that 80%, I want to get to 99%, just like in IL2 FB - I want to be a master, but I don't like the idea of just accepting that I suck, for now, and hoping to get better - I want to do something about it...

I'm not saying you don't want to get there, I am just looking for different answers, and I don't want to 'settle' - again, I hope that doesn't sound like a slam - I appreciate the thought, and I took it to heart, and I will accept what I am, for now, but I need to find out more about it - I am very analytical - perhaps too analytical, and obsessive/compulsive, so I am driven to find out EXACTLY why I am so bad at it, in the hope that I will soon discover how to be better

I will try to just take what I get and move on, but that is not satisfying for me - For now, I can be satisfied with one kill in a mission, but if an AI teammate comes in and steals my kill just as I am lined up for the shot, and about to fire, it bugs me to no end - and if I end up with 0 kills that flight, I feel like I have accomplished nothing - I have learned nothing

If I can come back home in one piece, yippey - what's the point if I can't shoot anyone down? I might as well stay at home, unless the AI just likes having me there as bait so THEY can shoot everything down while I distract their targets...

LoL

I know - I know - it takes a lot of quality practice time - but man, I didn't think it would be this hard - I guess I'm just used to things coming to me more easily

At least I'm good at whining! booyah!

I love your sig btw, strangle it!

Kark signing off

Tully__
11-01-2004, 09:55 PM
And one more thing, you can use Quick Mission Builder to practice without the AI stealing your targets. Set up as many targets as you like and set their loadouts to Empty so they don't shoot back. You can then concentrate on target practice without worrying about your AI, navigation or anything else. It give you time to try shooting from different angles, attacking from above and below and so forth.

WTE_Galway
11-01-2004, 10:03 PM
what tully said http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but also in QMB start out at half or quarter speed and record tracks and play them back from the targets perspective

gradually bring yourself up to normal time then if you are game try double


generaly speaking shooting from the six is a mugs game anyway .. if you play back tracks of your dead 6 attacks you will see bullets whizzing centimetres above and below the wings and tail with the odd shot slamming into the heavy armor behind the pilot

insread if you are approaching from the six at speed dive down a few hundred feet and then once you are almost vertically under th bomber pull straight up and rake it from head to tail .. with practice you can then come up above him invert and have another go at him from above before extending away

another hint for shooting .. make sure the ball is centred with the rudder otherwise you shots are not going to go where the crosshair is pointing

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 10:03 PM
Lots of wise folk here it seems

Thanks for the advice

I will read the articles at SimHQ

I have been trying in quick mission builder - had set their loadouts to empty but the JU88 still had guns... maybe I missed something

I will also try your recommended settings (although I am going to try oleg's settings for the yaw as I find too much movement in the default, and seemingly not enough in mine)

the curve I already have in the axis settings are pretty smooth, but they get steep faster than they should, I guess

I just wanted more precision near center, without sacrificing full motion over the higher end

guess we'll see

although my settings are similar to your recommended ones

0/1/3/9/18/30/45/60/85/100

vs

1/4/9/16/25/36/49/64/81/100

you have an extra step in the middle, since I have the 0 at the beginning

/em takes a deep breath and dives into a reading on perspective

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 10:09 PM
WTE_Galway

you said
"another hint for shooting .. make sure the ball is centred with the rudder otherwise you shots are not going to go where the crosshair is pointing"

Do you mean in my instrument panel, out of view when looking forward throught the canopy, so that I have to move my view down to see it? Does the ball indicate yaw or roll? or both?

I have set my convergance to 150 for guns and 250 for cannons (no guns on the L5 anyway)

Found myself to be fairly accurate when flying in the yak with the machine gun - nose mounted, I know - it makes a difference - I can surgically remove a wing from my target with a nose mounted cannon, assuming I am dumb enough to stay on his six long enough to get in position (not so bad against a lone fighter) - so maybe it is more the gun than me, but I know there is a lot left to learn

Semper Fi!

LEXX_Luthor
11-01-2004, 10:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll let a burst go (flying an L5, I think it is called, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Helps to pay attention to what you fly

ImpStarDuece
11-01-2004, 10:23 PM
Gunnery is the KEY in this game.

However, there is no substitute for PRACTICE.

Practice, practice, practice.

I have been flying the sim since the release of IL2 original and STILL consistently undershoot, misjudge deflections, overshoot and blow easy shots from dead six.

Piloting a machine propelled by a rotating airfoil at 500 kph while trying to hit a 10m wide target at anywhere from 50-400m while that target is iself moving at 400-500kph often at a different angle and usually at a different velocity is NOT easy. Its not meant to be.

FUN is not being able to flail your enemies mercilessly and get 5-10 kills a mission. For me FUN is teh ability to safely get one perfect B'n'Z or deflection shot, keep my wingmen safe, fly right and maybe get a kill or two.

WTE_Galway
11-01-2004, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karkadann:
WTE_Galway

you said
"another hint for shooting .. make sure the ball is centred with the rudder otherwise you shots are not going to go where the crosshair is pointing"

Do you mean in my instrument panel, out of view when looking forward throught the canopy, so that I have to move my view down to see it? Does the ball indicate yaw or roll? or both?

I have set my convergance to 150 for guns and 250 for cannons (no guns on the L5 anyway)

Found myself to be fairly accurate when flying in the yak with the machine gun - nose mounted, I know - it makes a difference - I can surgically remove a wing from my target with a nose mounted cannon, assuming I am dumb enough to stay on his six long enough to get in position (not so bad against a lone fighter) - so maybe it is more the gun than me, but I know there is a lot left to learn

Semper Fi! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the ball indicates yaw

just try it, fly along and rock the rudder left and right and watch the tracer .. for extreme rudder positions it will be scooting out of the target reticle altogether

most planes in game fly with some yaw at full throttle that needs to be counteracted .. this is very pronounced in the 109's

Korolov
11-01-2004, 10:33 PM
If you've got AEP, I recommend loading up the P-51D-20 and trying out the gyro gunsight. It might help some.

Weather_Man
11-01-2004, 10:45 PM
I think it took me about 3 months to where I considered myself somewhat comfortable with gunnery. It takes a few weeks just to get a feel for how to fly different aircraft within tolerance--what you can and can't get away with. And that's today, after 3 years of playing. It definately takes a lot of patience and a lot of practice, but the payoff is worth it. I wouldn't still be playing if it weren't.

BTW, just for reference, an outstanding hit percentage is around 10%. More common is around 3-4%. Hitting moving targets at 400kph ain't easy for anyone. Especially when the targets hit back. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 10:46 PM
Thanks Galway - same pattern of thinking as balancing torque I see at takeoff, having to offset the plane's desire to veer left of the runway

ImpStarDeuce - thanks - I will get there - with practice! (did you know I was going to say that?)

Korolov, what's AEP?! doh!

WTE_Galway
11-01-2004, 10:47 PM
not the name but what it is

different planes require different techniques


for example the attacks you are describing would probably work in a 190a8 with a pair of mk108 wing cannons Ok but not an La5

in fact if you want to down some bombers just for kicks .. try a 190a8 with mk108 wing cannons they are downright nasty against any bomber up to and including B17/pe8's

T_O_A_D
11-01-2004, 10:50 PM
Here are some http://131st.fighter-planes.net/files/Toads%20Target%20Practice.exe target practicing missions I made For IL2+AEP You can host them up as a COOP and fly them by your self. It has tons of targets. It runs smoothly on my machine, even if I have one person join in. None of them should have ammo. Hope it helps, I does me if If I play it once every other day. But if I don't practice then I just fall back again missing targets. Hard to find the time to shoot all day long. Dang you will have to copy past the entire link it won't hotlink for some reason.

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 10:58 PM
Ahh AEP - don't have it - stopped at FB - haven't played in months, and not spending another penny on it til I get some use out of it

Have Falcon 4 sitting on the shelf, and Jane's FA18, and LOMAC, and a couple of others - including the original IL2, which I never flew more than a few missions

I know some planes are better for different missions, but when I chose the plane for the campaign, and the campaign set me up to fly against bombers, and I saw the AI shooting up those bombers that I couldn't take out, I knew the plane had to be good enough for the job, even if they aren't the best tool for it

I would like to learn to fly one plane first, and get to be good at it - that is why I chose the campaign - learn how to use one weapon very well before moving horizontally to another craft

and I don't know the capabilities of all the planes yet - I have read some descriptions but haven't flown many yet - I don't think hopping from plane to plane will do me any good - it would probably make things worse

I can fly the plane I'm in now - I just need to learn how to gain position, which is what I think that article series will help with

and I know what you all mean - hitting the small target moving at that speed, while you are moving, with head bobbing, and bullet drop compensation, and so forth - it isn't meant to be easy - it will be rewarding - thanks to listening to me vent, and for the good advice

Tully__
11-01-2004, 11:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Here are some http://131st.fighter-planes.net/files/Toads%20Target%20Practice.exe target practicing missions I made For IL2+AEP You can host them up as a COOP and fly them by your self. It has tons of targets. It runs smoothly on my machine, even if I have one person join in. None of them should have ammo. Hope it helps, I does me if If I play it once every other day. But if I don't practice then I just fall back again missing targets. Hard to find the time to shoot all day long. Dang you will have to copy past the entire link it won't hotlink for some reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Toad, the apostrophe breaks the link. Any chance of getting it renamed?

Tully__
11-01-2004, 11:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karkadann:

I know some planes are better for different missions, but when I chose the plane for the campaign, and the campaign set me up to fly against bombers, and I saw the AI shooting up those bombers that I couldn't take out, I knew the plane had to be good enough for the job, even if they aren't the best tool for it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to ease your mind a bit, there are some things you need to be aware of with AI.

They get more ammo than you.

The flight model used by the AI (and your autopilot) is less complex than the one for human pilots (done to ease the load on your CPU which is flying ALL the non human planes). This means they can get away with stuff that would leave you doing smoking lawn dart impressions. It also allows them to slow down and accelerate better in certain circumstances.

They can see through solid objects and clouds (again done to ease the load on your CPU).

Don't be discouraged because the AI seems to doing things a lot easier than you. They're working under a slightly different set of rules and you can't judge your performance directly against the AI pilots.

As for flying different planes, I agree that it's a good idea to learn to fly on one plane. Once you'r halfway comfortable, take a short spin in a few others to get a feel for how differently other planes can perform in similar circumstances. If you know what circumstances your target will be able to outfly you and vice versa it will help you to choose the best approach for setting up a shot.

Karkadann
11-01-2004, 11:20 PM
Thanks again Tully

First, a question: How do I quote without copying and pasting? I don't see an option here (am using netscape, maybe it is hidden?)

Thanks for the AI heads up - I knew they had an advantage from what I had read about patches changing things, but that helps put it more into perspective

I have flown the P51 and the Yak 9U in those same scenarios (me against 4 JU-88) just to work on guns, but it isn't the shooting that is the problem - it is getting in line to do the shooting that has me stumped, and, since it is obviously different in each plane, I have to agree - I can see how it can take a long time to perfect the skills - It makes me wonder how real WW2 pilots did it, since they don't get to quit the mission and restart like we can, and they don't have sims with friendly JU-88's that don't try to run away so we can target practice on them

Korolov
11-01-2004, 11:26 PM
For one, the real pilots tended to just hold down the trigger and never let go... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Since you don't have AEP (and trust me, you're missing out), either the P-47D-27 or the P-51D-5 are good for trying to get positioning, leading, etc. up to snuff. They make nice big walls of lead which can help you get a general idea of where your shots are going and how many are hitting. Barring those two, the La-5FN offers a good platform for helping leading and deflection shots. Use the notches on the gunsight to help calculate lead on a target.

clint-ruin
11-01-2004, 11:31 PM
As far as I know AI planes carry the same ammo loadout as player aircraft. But their flight models are indeed very simplified, about halfway between easy realism setting selections and what happens when you engage Autopilot in the player aircraft. Or fighting someone using trim-on-a-slider :>

WTE_Galway
11-01-2004, 11:33 PM
firstly, you do NOT want to get in line for the shot .. the direct six shot is the hardest to make effective .. the problem with shooting is the naturally tendency to slot in frieght train fashion behind the target making you an easy kill for the tail gunner and giving you minimal chance at damage

you need to develop the habit of coming from above below the front the side anywhere but the six

WWII pilots were trained in deflection shooting, real WWII pilots rarely attacked a bomber from the six and attacking from any other angle requires estimating deflection

the preferred RAAF attack on he111's for example was a feint to one flank and then a real attack on the other side as there was only one side gunner for both sides and he did not have time to swap

the LW used this against B17's a bit late war when crew attrition got to the point they couldnt fully crew the planes

LW strategy was more often head on from slighly above or slightly below the bomber stream raking the bombers as they shot past .. although if clouds were about popping out of a cloud directly under a bomber and firing up into its belly was popular

as for the P51 (0.50 cal machine guns) and the 9U (20mm cannon) neither are serious bomber killers though both will do well in the right hands

good bomber killers are generally the big gun planes, these include:

Lagg 3 IT (30mm cannon)
Yak 9T (30 mm cannon)
Yak 9K (45 mm cannon)
Fw190 most variants (bulk 20 mm and 30mm cannons)
P39 (30mm cannon)
me262

HomeboyWu
11-01-2004, 11:35 PM
How the WW2 pilots did it? By surviving!

The leading ace of all times, Hartmann with 352 kills, did so by surviving. Do you know how many kills he gets average on one mission? Well he got one kill every three missions. Yup, you already beat him with 9 kills in 18 sorties. Now if you can survive, or evade capture, some 1000+ sorties that he must have flown, then it's something to write home about!

Simjock
11-01-2004, 11:51 PM
I was up with an instructor a few years back in congested air space. I started getting frustered with the radios, nav aids, maps, air space, and a very up-tight traffic controller screaming at me to maintain altitude.

My instructor reached over and turned off the radio stack and said, "You need wings to fly, not radios. Just fly the plane".

As unorthidox as it may be, he was right. It's real easy to get caught up in the details and forget the basics.

I have a cheap controler. I never messed with its settings. I have been playing IL2 for about 3 years and I consider myself good enough to survive an online mission. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm certainly no ace, but I always have fun.

Korolov
11-02-2004, 12:19 AM
Maybe someone could provide a link or a image to show how leading and deflection shooting should be done.

Erugifog
11-02-2004, 12:50 AM
Personally, I don't like to attack from the dead-six position. I find the target's profile is very small and hard to hit from that angle, although technically, that's the most advantageous position to be in in a dogfight. Also, many of the target's 'tender spots' are not exposed from that angle. It may sound strange, but my favorite angle is a slight deflection shot where I can lead the plane a bit and allow it to fly through my cannon stream.

It took me a while to get the hang of calculating lead, but once you do, the game's fun factor goes way up.

I think it's universally true that new pilots underestimate the amount of lead needed, particularly in high-deflection shots. Watch your tracers and look for flashes on the enemy indicating hits. If you're not seeing them, try increasing your lead. When I first started playing, I found in some cases I needed to double and even triple my lead distances from what I thought was needed.

Remember, too, that your weapons' convergence settings have a big influence on whether you will hit your target. Make sure you are attacking from the optimal distance given your convergence settings. You can adjust your convergence by clicking on the "Advanced Setup" button on the Quick Mission Builder screen that shows the menus with the friendly and enemy AC. It's the little dark grey button on the far right (it's easy to miss). I wouldn't go beyond 500m when starting out and 300m to 400m is probably better. Keep in mind that if the target is too far ahead of your convergence point, your rounds will criss-cross between you and your target and then pass on either side of it (assuming you're flying a plane with wing-mounted weapons). For example, if your convergence is set at 350m, and you're flying a P-47 shooting at a target 800m ahead, you're going to miss. You bullets will converge at 350m, crisscross and then be wider than the width of your plane by the time they reach the target at 800m. You won't hit squat. For practice, you amy want to try a plane like an ME-262 or Bf-109 with nose-mounted weapons for which convergence isn't a factor (although bullet/cannon drop still is). For practicing with wing-mounted weapons, try the IL-2I. It's a very stable platform and not as twitchy as some other planes.

Something else you may want to try--go into your Hardware Control and give yourself two or three clicks of filtering. With no filtering, the joystick can be very jittery when trying to line up a precision shot. Filtering helps deaden the response which is actually a good thing when you're starting out. Even now, I still use a click or two of filtering.

This may have been said, but practice your gunnery skills on friendly aircraft (start with larger bombers, and then work to smaller fighters). They won't duck and dodge as much. Also, get to know the weak spots of the individual AC.

Record your tracks in the Quick Mission Builder, and go back and use external padlock of your attacking AC from the target AC. Take a look at how close (or far) your tracers are from the target. You may be surprised to see that what you think is dead on is really passing well behind the target.

Last of all, be patient. This is not an easy game to master, unlike most FPS games that you can pick up in a day or two. Good luck.

dieg777
11-02-2004, 03:14 AM
although I suck at gunnery and prefer the wait until it fills the windscreen until firing approach -these helped me- generally anything by Andy Bush is worth reading

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/RAFgun/

good luck

pettera
11-02-2004, 03:29 AM
Maybe this has already been said but have you tried the "arcade" mode. Put "arcade 1" )I think) in the config.ini file and you will see where your bullets and shrapnel hit. Long white arrows on each impact. Quite educating when used in combination with QMB.

Try online. Easier to kill opponents (Ai is better at hadling damaged planes) but also harder to survive.

Good luck
Petter

Tully__
11-02-2004, 03:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karkadann:
Thanks again Tully

First, a question: How do I quote without copying and pasting? I don't see an option here (am using netscape, maybe it is hidden?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the bottom right corner of each post there's a little yellow folder symbol with a black double quote mark. Click it to reply with quote.

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 03:36 AM
The plane I've been flying mostly is the La-5

20mm cannons, limited ammo, and I'm greedy - I want 4 kills if there are four targets...

I know that is for the masters, and I should be happy with two kills in one flight, because I often expend all my ammo before downing the second one, but I'm not happy yet - when I can take down two bombers with one ammo load, on a regular basis, I'll be happy - that should mean I will be able to take out four, but that depends on luck, and how well placed my shots are

When I mentioned lining up for the shot, I didn't mean that I was trying to line up on their six

I'm assuming, but am not sure, since I didn't find it anywhere in the manual, that 1.5 beside the name of the plane means 1500 metres, so .2 would be 200 metres

I usually wait until I get between .35 and .25 before taking a shot, but at .25 I'm usually off, and out of place for taking the shot

Let me start from the beginning - assuming I am correct, and that 1.0 means 1000 metres, I will use that as my yardstick for the following explanation

I line up parallel with the enemy, but a little behind, with rudder fully extended so I can fly sideways, almost parallel, and keep an eye on them - then when I get to around 1.75 or 1.5, I turn and dive into them, aiming to get to the point where I would be in position for a lead shot at about .35

If I keep my trigger down, I will likely get some hits, but they are typically not enough in one strafing pass to do enough damage to take off a wing, unless I get quite lucky - or perhaps I am just not putting enough bullets into the wings - I pause after a pass and view the enemy from their perspective (ctrl-f2) and can see holes here and there on their wings, but not enough to rip them off - but, I am trying to do it in bursts, so maybe, for one, I should keep the trigger down longer - I have been trying to conserve ammo so I could get all four during the practice run, but if that isn't possible because the mechanics of the game, meaning no matter what, 99% of the time, I won't have enough ammo to down more than 2 JU 88 in an La-5, then I might as well keep my finger down and see how much damage I can do when I hold it down

On a side note, three times I went to record my flight, but as soon as I click 'start recording' and it takes me back to the flight, I get no sound at all - is that normal? Or is the answer in the FAQ? (just never bothered looking) its kind of distracting to try and fly the plane when you have no sense of motion and one of the main things giving you SA is the sound of your engine, but it is gone when you have no sound at all...

Also, I had put elevator trim on the lower right rotary on my x45, and aileron trim on the top one, but found that I haven't had to use aileron trim at all, so I'm going to put rudder trim and see if it helps at all, when it matters

Is there anything I can study to explain the when/where/why of using trim? I mean, when I start a mission in QMB, and get the plane up to speed, I have figured out that level'ing the plane with the elevator trim means I no longer have to play with my pitch to keep the plane level, but I don't know if I should be doing that, or setting it a bit negative, or positive, or if/when to do any of the above, and of course, the same goes for roll and yaw - is trim meant to just be set once, so the aircraft flies on perfectly straight line when you set it to do so? wouldn't that be affected if I were to set trim when climbing as opposed to going straight, or when diving? or is that a completely independent function? (I'm assuming it would be different, but I'm not sure why)

or are those questions for another forum? :P

Simjock, you said

'My instructor reached over and turned off the radio stack and said, "You need wings to fly, not radios. Just fly the plane".

As unorthidox as it may be, he was right. It's real easy to get caught up in the details and forget the basics.'

and I think you hit the nail on the head - I tend to forget I'm flying, in a sense, once the fight starts - I still know I'm flying, and I know the fight moves in 3 dimensions, instead of two, and I know I should keep my energy up, and I know I should come in with a lead and aim for the cockpit, or engines, or wings if I have the right angle, but natural tendencies take over and I find myself kicking my butt for falling into the same trap again and again, then having to get out of it...

I like the idea of doing it at 1/4 or 1/2 speed, but I tried at half speed and couldn't bear it

I think recording it would make the biggest difference, but I can't without losing sound

I did notice, just once, as the enemy planes were in their dive on the way to bomb my airbase (in QMB) that my shots fell behind them considerably - and I was pretty close - I think most times I hadn't noticed before because I was shooting upwards, but this time I saw the bullets dropping far behind - so again I try to get closer, but I get shredded, and when I try coming in from the top, as mentioned above, when I am having a very hard time learning to judge how to adjust when getting to the .35 range - I guess I should just be shooting at that point, assuming I haven't completely messed up, and hope the shots do what the plan meant for them to do

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:

At the bottom right corner of each post there's a little yellow folder symbol with a black double quote mark. Click it to reply with quote. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

funny strange - I had tried it before but it didn't work - maybe I just thought I had clicked on that one - I also wanted to know how to edit and since I had clicked the folder icon beside it and not seen the option, I figured it was hidden as well, but now they are both working

just to make me look bad

whatever! LoL thanks for the help

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 03:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pettera:
Maybe this has already been said but have you tried the "arcade" mode. Put "arcade 1" )I think) in the config.ini file and you will see where your bullets and shrapnel hit. Long white arrows on each impact. Quite educating when used in combination with QMB.

Try online. Easier to kill opponents (Ai is better at hadling damaged planes) but also harder to survive.

Good luck
Petter <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! I will try this until I get QMB's recorder figured out

BTW, any idea what this is for?

HighGore=0

does it turn on bodies flying apart or something?

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 03:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dieg777:
although I suck at gunnery and prefer the wait until it fills the windscreen until firing approach -these helped me- generally anything by Andy Bush is worth reading
<snip>
good luck <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks much - I'll have a read

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 04:06 AM
I think I just realized what I have been doing wrong - I haven't yet put it into practice, but reading the link you put up about the RAF gun pamphlet, I think its time to say Eureka

When I target and come down from my parallel flight which changes the AoA, I pick the right line of flight based on the right amount of deflection from that longer range, but as I have been getting closer, I have been pushing the nose of the plane down, into the other plane, instead of keeping with that same angle of deflection, and that throws my calculations off, esp at 500 knots - I've likely been firing behind them a lot because of this - I am still reading but will give it a go in a little while and report my findings

Semper fi!

dieg777
11-02-2004, 04:27 AM
your right 0.25 = 250m
Not surprised your bullets fall behind underetimating lead is common - even when at convergence lead that little bit more and check your angle of attack- at higher angles off lead more again- from reading ww2 accounts most real pilots found that initially they lead by only halve what was needed

Instead of trying to record in game when you exit press save track name it something sensable and then go to play tracks button on main menu, select user time and views switches then scroll down and highlight your track and press play
you can fast forward to the section you want and switch views to see hits

have fun

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 04:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dieg777:
your right 0.25 = 250m
Not surprised your bullets fall behind underetimating lead is common - even when at convergence lead that little bit more and check your angle of attack- at higher angles off lead more again- from reading ww2 accounts most real pilots found that initially they lead by only halve what was needed

Instead of trying to record in game when you exit press save track name it something sensable and then go to play tracks button on main menu, select user time and views switches then scroll down and highlight your track and press play
you can fast forward to the section you want and switch views to see hits

have fun <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the problem with leading by that much in a high angle dive, it feels like spray and pray, but I guess it is all an educated guess, so there's only one way to find out!

thanks for the tip about recording - will do that next time as well

Tully__
11-02-2004, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karkadann:
HighGore=0

does it turn on bodies flying apart or something? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On a very few aircraft there are extra blood effects and pilots that slump when dead which only appear with HighGore=1. The aircraft are He-111, one model of the 109's and an AI only flying boat in the Russian arsenal.

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 06:46 AM
Had to turn on the extra gore, I mean, cmon!

Did quite a bit of reading, went up for a flight, first flight was ok but I had turned on arcade and forgotten I had done so - so I quit and turned it off, started again, same scenario, me in my La-5 against 4 JU88 (no ammo this time)

Managed to shoot down two and wound the third but not enough that he crashed, getting there though!

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 07:13 AM
So, after all that I decided to fly a mission; the next mission in my campaign

The more I play, the less I want to play

It isn't bad enough that the AI tells me to get back in formation when I'm stuck in a furball, or right on a target's six, about to take a shot, and it isn't bad enough that the AI feels the need to steal my kills on a regular basis, but while stealing my kills, the idiot AI starts shooting AT ME because I'm between him and his target

/sigh

makes me want to give up

If I could just fly these missions solo...

I used to do that in Falcon 4 - I knew how stupid the AI was in certain circumstances and I'd send my wingman home rather than have the idiot get shot down, since it affects your forces, and affects your rating if your wingman gets shot down - I'd send him away long before we got into a fight, if I saw a ton of enemy aircraft on radar, and if it was where I was headed - send him home, he's useless anyway

Do we ever get promoted to the point of leading wings in IL2 FB or are we always on the wing?

I mean, I flew this one mission last week - flew it over and over trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, and finally decided to try to stay in formation as best as I could - as soon my wing commander spotted fighters closing range, he started maneuvering (to what end, I don't know - seemed like a lead turn but it was way too early - he was doing an away turn but I'm sure it wasn't going to help him get in their turn circle, nor stay out of theirs) but anyway, I stayed in formation and guess what, I was shot down in a matter of seconds, because I was in formation ... Get out of formation, the AI tells me off, don't get out of formation, get shot down - maybe I can get my wing commander to play some russian roulette

/vent off

T_O_A_D
11-02-2004, 09:11 AM
Ah the RAF pamplet a good resource for sure. Got it but had lost the link.

I fixed My Target missions Link (http://131st.fighter-planes.net/files/Toads%20Target%20Practice.exe) Tully, Had to fix my ftp program first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I need to sit down and make some more for PF now.

LilHorse
11-02-2004, 09:56 AM
Oh-ho-ho! Where do we start? I think you are expecting waaaaaaay too much. I think that first perceptions of this game may be a bit off for you. I think most people would agree here that this is not a "gamers" game. It's HARD. And that's where the fun is for us and the frustration is for a casual gamer. If you just want to hop in a plane and zip around like an X-Wing and shoot stuff then this sim ain't for you.

So if you want to get better and have a truly rewarding experiance with it, then you have to understand that there is a pretty steep learning curve. It's hard but it's worth it.

And it really does help to understand not only something about aviation, but about aviation from this period and tactics for a given plane to get the most out of your experiance.

Then, as I'm sure many will tell you, once you think you're good offline and think you're ready to venture online, you'll have another rude awakening. Almost everyone who goes online gets hammered for a time ranging from weeks to months. But again when you actually do get a kill and survive to land it's the best feeling.

So, don't expect too much. Keep at it. Practice. Read up. And most of all don't get discouraged. It'll be worth it.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-02-2004, 10:09 AM
Hi,

Don't get too disgruntled, m8 - this game is simply not about instant gratification. Most of the punters on this board who are getting a lot of kills didn't suddenly jump in a plane and start to shoot down everything them came across. I'm pretty sure that they would have had trouble landing and taking off at first and suffered stalls and getting caught out by using the wrong tactics in certain aircraft.

I've assumed this because I, and everyone I know who plays this, did all (and still do) all of these things.

The fun of this game is the learning curve and the satisfaction of becoming proficient in different types of aircraft. Online, you can fully expect to get a pasting for some time because you are up against people who have put a lot of hours into learning the intricacies of their own aircraft and, most likely, the ins and outs of yours so as to defeat it (and you) easily. They are also most likely working in teams which is bad news even for experienced pilots who are caught alone.

Offline is fun but can get on your nerves, I agree. Ignore your flight leader and take the lead yourself; it's much more fun ordering people about than being whined at all the time.

Also, the AI is annoying because they will very often go after planes you have deliberately left alone because you know they are crippled while you go after something else. It's something that happens online, too.

So, for a good amount of time, it's not particularly fun to have your **** kicked all the time....but before you know it, the tables will turn and you'll find that the game (whines aside) is the finest available of it's type.

Cheers,
Norris

Yskonyn23
11-02-2004, 10:15 AM
I've been folowing this thread for some time now and I thought I'd kick in now.
For the record I am a real life commercial pilot so I know a thing or two about aviation. I also know that a good combat flightsim isn't about 'fragging' to stay in 'gamer language', but about the flight models of the aircraft, the strive for as much realism as 'binary possible' and last but not least 'being able to fiddle with things' as aircraft have lots of knobs and switches.

The IL series doesn't deliver WW2 aircraft models (with their flight characteristics) like a novalogic title (no offense meant).
It really is a flightsim as dedicated flightsimmer have come to expect flightsims to be, maybe even a bit more than that too (getting to be coloured info now, so I'll get back to the objective part, lol)!

Like LilHorse said, if you want to get 'fragging' away in X-Wing style combat you certainly missed the head of the nail here.

Real life combat pilots train intensively, which you cannot, because you don't have a tutor and the training tracks are a) limited and b) non-interactive, furthermore you probably don't have the background info and training syllabus anyway and I suppose neither the time (relatively seen).
So you'll have to look at this from a gamers point of view (ironic isn't it?). With little knowledge to real life procedures you will have to take on the AI which is coded by extensive research and have several tricks up their sleeve, besides, like said before, they are even cheating because they are using a simplified (more novalogic LOL) flightmodel and might get away with things the player cannot.

The main thing however is to keep an eye on the real life combat veterans here.
They didn't score kill after kill on a sortie, they were already great when scoring merely one kill, or even damaging an enemy aircraft and they had quite some training to achieve that anyway!

I get blown out of the sky often by the AI, not to speak when I dare to show my face online.
I learn new things every time I play IL and I am a veteran of Jane's WWII Fighters, CFS1,2 and 3 (though all not online).

Keep your thoughts and opinions realistic and don't let the fun go away just because you can't frag in IL. It's a different show you're playing in here.

Chuck_Older
11-02-2004, 10:56 AM
Karkadann-

Well, there's a whole lot you're missing, I think. For me, the combat flight sim is great, outstanding.

But, for me, and a lot of others, details and the attention they get, interesting things the game makes you aware of, and how those things in-game relate to their real-life counterparts is pretty interesting too.

Not to mention the fact that for some bizarre reason, some of us like to get into the Mission Builder, tinker around with the toys in there, and make some missions.

There's also the level bombers and dive-bombers you can try out.

Now, I've been interested in this stuff concerning flight in WWII since I can remember. I've been reading a lot about this stuff for decades and there's a definite "wow!" factor involved with the sim because it gives me chance to taste a little bit of some of the stuff I read, with no risk to my neck.

Maybe you should ask yourself some questions:

1) WOuld you be interested in just flying a virtual plane around? In this sim or another? Does flying under a bridge in FB sound like fun? WOuld you do it upside down? Would you try for hours because it's fun? Shooting down enemy a/c is fun and explosions are cool, but there's more to the sim than just that

2) if you play other games, how long does it take to master the typical game you play? This one is different...I bought a sim in 1998 called Grand Prix Legends. the members here wish I'd shut up about it by now, I think...but I STILL have not mastered GPL. It's that hard. But fun? Oh yes it's fun. Even when I get lapped twice in the same race. It's challenging, and when I do well it can be as rewarding as winning the race. Sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


But to me, it seems like you concentrate on "winning" much too much. Do what you can, and get better. It might be a slow process. Those AI b@satrds stealing your kills aren't making fun of you behind your back, I promise. Plus that happens to us all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

horseback
11-02-2004, 11:01 AM
Karkadan, I have great sympathy with your frustrations with the AI in your campaign. I too, have had the AI stealing the kills when I already did all the hard work (set them afire or smoking, knocked off their rudders or stabilizers, etc.). Be assured, however, that if you persevere, you will be promoted and eventually command your own flight and then the whole unit in the campaign, and can exercise more control over the AI (not that they will always obey).

In Real Life, I'd use the time-honored practice: invite the perpetrator out behind the 'O' Club and beat the cr@p out of him, or simply warn him that if he wants his backside covered, he'd better quit wasting his time on aircraft I've already disabled and put out of the fight.

In the game, I often relieve the stress by hitting 'Refly' and immediately blowing his tail out of the sky a few times. It may be my imagination, but they usually start being better behaved after the third or fourth 'refly & die'.

A persistant offender, however, can be downgraded from ace or veteran to a more realistic average or rookie in the Full Mission Builder by opening the 'Campaigns' Folder and finding the current mission of your campaign once it's been generated, or if it's a 'static' campaign, I usually downgrade my wingmen to no better than 'veteran', and if the #3 is particularly larcenous (and he usually is), he and his wingman get 'rookie' status, for the next several missions (I had to do this with the Barbarossa Campaign, after several egregious violations of pilot courtesy in what should have been multi-kill sorties).

You marksmanship will improve with practice, as you learn to get the hang of using the rudder in conjunction with your stick-handling (the La-5 series is particularly responsive in this area). I've found a couple of warm-ups in QMB before a campaign mission helps get me in the groove sometimes, and you will find with experience that each enemy aircraft (except the LaGG-3) has its own 'button', a weak spot that if hit a couple of times, will give you a catastrophic kill.

Few of these can be obtained from a dead six, though. Offline, the only one who can be consistantly killed from a dead six is the player.

Hope these tips help improve your 'fun quotient'.

cheers

horseback

carguy_
11-02-2004, 03:12 PM
In this game you`re either a good loser or a dissapointed customer heheh

WTE_Galway
11-02-2004, 04:18 PM
perhaps you would be better playing online ? you could join a real squadron who would train you to fly genuine team tactics

basically campaign play requires a different midset

firstly ignore the complaints about being off course it has no effect on your career whatsoever .. in fact when low ranked i often deliberatley go off course and climb then request assistance so the stupid AI gets a tactical advantage

Do not despair ... as you advance up the ranks you eventually gain the ability to configure your aircraft (major) then command a wing and eventually the whole squadron .. howeve if you start at the bottom it will take a 100 or more missions to get there !!

the AI advance from novice through to ace as they improve

a successful campaign requires you to get your entire squadron to advance, this means among other things:

- protecting your AI
- letting them take kills so they can improve
- when you are advanced enough finding good targets for them over and above the mission requirements

basically you only want enough kills to advance at a reasonable rate every kill you take is one less for the rest of the squadron

you might want to try a short campaign as squadron leader .. though you need to really be on your toes in that case there is a lot to think about as leader if your squadron is too survive .. or possibly start at major .. thatrs a good compromise

tricks i use regularly ...

- in a tricky fight with a rookie wingman, sending him home
- sending half the squadron home on an easy mission so the other half can max there kills
- taking your flight (or wingman) out hunting ground targets on the way home
- damaging planes then sending my wingman after them
- if only low ranked use the "call for assistance" feature to force the squadron to change altitude and location

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 05:27 PM
The wisdom here is grand.

I really appreciate the advice, and you are all right - I was focusing too much on the gun fights - I know it - I didn't realize it until I read it today, its just that I had been trying so hard to learn the flight characteristics of my own aircraft so I could stay in formation, that I wasn't able to watch the landscape, sunrise, watch out for enemy aircraft, etc

From what I can tell, the ONLY way to find ground targets is with the map - I have been in flight formation and had the leader give the command to start an attack run when it was a column of armor so far away I could barely make out the bridge they were on, never mind the armor! :P

I played Falcon 4 quite a bit - I was also one of the lead beta testers in the now defunct OIR

I read the Falcon 4 manual (yes, the whole squadron leader binder) from cover to cover more than once and I also read Pete Bonanni's Prima Strategy guide

I once got so good at landing the falcon that I used the training mission to land, take off, climb to about 15000 ft, invert, pull my nose all the way back around facing the runway, dive and land again, then climb again, over and over and over - the tower didn't like me too much but it was just a practise mission - it was all good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have also been invited more than once to join the FreeFalcon group, and I had done some design work for them, on the side - I even set up the sound of the A10 cannon in the right loop setup for Falcon 4 OIR, so I have been around as well

I am just not used to this slow pace - I started my campaign later in the war - late 1942, and the LW had lost a good number of planes by then, so there is less to shoot down

I did make lt in 1 week of game time

I know it is about flying, but if I want to fly MS flight sim, I know where to find it

I will be patient, I will learn, with dedication, what it takes to be an ace in the game, and then I will set up my headset & mic and go online, and be slaughtered http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do things that most people wouldn't, to get position against my opponent, depending on the circumstance, and that can be a bad thing, but it would also throw players for a loop, so I guess I'll have to wait and see

In one month of game time, ie from Jan 11, 1942, to Feb 11 1942, I have been promoted once, received the order of the red star and of the red banner, and I have 9 kills out of 18 sorties

I suppose I shouldn't complain - I think I just like to complain if I don't get it all right away (the perfectionist obsessive compulsive in me)

I did, on one mission, veer completely off course, and followed the map - our goal was to take out a train - looking at the map, I saw no AAA around this one vehicle caravan not too far from the original target, so I let the AI go after our target, and I took out every one of those other vehicles, plus some in another column, before running out of ammo

I knew there was progress in the campaign, but I wasn't aware of what it took to get teammates promoted - one guy has as many kills as me in one less mission - he must be an ace - him and another guy are up there - they get 3 or 4 kills per flight

I guess from now on I will just go do my own thing, letting my flight do whatever they have to do, and I will be my own wing commander, when I can, and take out whatever targets they leave me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Does the number of ground kills affect your rating and/or rate of promotions? If so, do those kills have to be from the target in the plan? Or if I ignore our target and go after something else, will I still get just as high a score for it?

I'm not ready to go online (can't be bothered to set up the headset - I'd have to find it) and I'm not ready to lead a wing - still not sure enough about tactics in these craft - I know how to do a lot of different tactical maneuvers in an F16, or in an A10, or an F18, or an SU27, but the La-5 is a little less in my hands, for now

We shall see, however, as I have been meaning to do this since IL2 came out, never mind FB, so lets get on with it, shall we? Quit posting on the boards and get flying, aye?

Edit: as I mentioned before, I also have several other sims, including LOMAC, Jane's FA/18, and some others, and I bought them all with the intention of spending plenty of free time on them, but time never permitted - now that it does, I want to do it all - hopefully I'll never run out of simming material - I hope that I don't master all of these before the next big one comes out

Semper Fi

WTE_Galway
11-02-2004, 06:11 PM
surviving online is not as hard as some people on this forum make out .. especially if you fly with a squadron and have people to watch your back

there is also a big difference between online furball dogfight servers which are sometimes like 3D counterstrike with very loose settings such as no cockpit, padlock enabled and icons enabled and the co-op and virtual war servers which tend to be much more about realism and have more difficult settings

as for ground targets - they are hard to spot

the map will get you in the general vicinity and then ground padlock will tag them for you but i am not a fan of padlock, spoils immersion .. i prefer to wait until one of the AI does a run and locate them that way if i cannot spot them

ground targets like AAA when destroyed will usually stay destroyed for a mission or two


when searching for targets, as a rule of thumb one standard 10km map square takes 3 minutes to cross at 300 km

promotion is a points system, different ground targets are worth different points, multi engined planes are worth more than fighters and ships are big bikkies

also each "map" in a campaign has limited numbers of aircraft on both sides so if you do well you will find towards the end of each map before you "move" you will gain an advantage over the opposition .. if you do badly you will run out of aircraft

as for tactics .. LW planes and some otehr s like the P47 like altitude and speed and use zoom and boom tactics and VVS planes Spitfires etc tend to turn and burn better .. but no plane in IL2 is really a yank and bank arcade shooter .. for manouvres start with high and low yo-yos and split S and work up .. also remember the AI do not like the ground so getting extra low (a few metres off the deck)can sometimes be useful if you are in serious trouble and being hunted (this will not work online)

Chuck_Older
11-02-2004, 06:18 PM
K-

That's true about finding ground targets. It can be very frustrating. There is a legitimate argument for using icons on the map, as your communication with your flight is limited, the ground control is limited, FAC is non-existent, and you can't find most ground targets unless they are throwing lead at you

But on the other hand, finding ground targets was probably not very easy in real life! But I 'cheat' a bit in my campaigns and turn on map icons. I rationalise that as simulating a host of info i can't get but should be able to

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 07:12 PM
wtf is up with server errors now

that's the third post I lose on this board... I know, I know - should have used notepad

anyway, having trouble with my X45, it won't let me take off properly in a thunderstorm - if I let the autopilot take off, there is no problem, but if I do it myself, even applying full right rudder, the stupid thing is going off the runway to the left

wtf is up with that?

yes it is calibrated, and no, I don't have a single problem while in the sky, and no, I didn't have a problem taking off in normal weather

I had recently gotten the latest X45 drivers, but I have taken off in good weather without a problem - I am sure of it - I don't know what to do now ...

I don't want the AI to play for me - I might as well not even be here

I flew that same mission that ticked me off last night, and this time, I got three kills - somehow only credited for two, but whatever - it was more than I expected, especially since I got the kills right away - I lined up, took the shot, did the job, no questions asked, no quarter given (ok, ok, enough with the blah blah) I was just pleasantly surprised that I got the kills without wasting ammo - three times I lined up for shots, three times I took the shots, three times, the planes went down (I think the one I didn't get credit for had already been shot by the AI and the AI had done more damage)

But when I landed, because my X45 was acting strange, and it was very foggy, I landed just beside the runway, and at speed, I couldn't slow down enough, and ended up going nose over, wrecking the prop blades - and then I couldn't 'apply' the mission - I only had the option to refly it

why is that? is it because I wrecked the plane? or is it because I didn't wait for my crew to land? (I was first to land out of the four planes in my wing) and what's with the hidden objectives being met? are they talking about everyone getting home safe/landing?

did I not get the option to save because I wrecked the prop, or did I not get the option to save because I hadn't landed on the runway, or did I not get the option to save because I left before getting the 'hidden objective complete' message? or ?

WTE_Galway
11-02-2004, 07:24 PM
OK, thunderstorms are a serious pain in the @ss

lock tailwheel, stamp on brakes, full throttle and full rudder and go for it to take off .. even then you are likely to be off the runway

landing well lock tailwheel and hope for the best


basically, depending on whether "instant sucees" is enabled you can sucessfully complete a mission two ways ..

1) fulfill objectives .. often this may mean taking out a specific target or sometimes waiting a fair while to all friendly flights return to friendly territory

2) landing landing at a friendly airbase

its possible teh crash was sever enough to count as a mission loss though sometimes if landing does not work i have found going to accelerated time and sitting on the runway for a few minutes sometimes will do it

as far as the kills go sometimes friendly AAA can get the credit or sometimes they just seem to count as "crashed", i have been on missions where the enemy lost 8 planes but the total credit kills for myself and the AI was only 4 or 5

the sytsem is not perfect but its playable

congratulations on the 3 kills good luck on repeating it and gaining the victories next time

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 10:22 PM
Thanks - flew it again and got two kills - and again, crashed on landing

Thought maybe it was the X45

thought about locking the rear wheel since I could see it turning, but didn't have it mapped to anything - and I had throttle at 0, so I guess the wind must have been blowing me while I was just sitting there

did the mission again, let the AI take off, and this time land - only wound up with one kill this time but I'll live with it

I know there is a torque spin when you start the engine but the fact that I had the throttle at 0 and I was still swinging sideways, I guess that was because I couldn't lock the wheel - will set a shortcut for it

next mission was a train bombing, I took a shortcut and beat my whole team there - took out all 10 cars, but dropped my bombs too low LoL

there was no AAA in the area so I must have been killed by the bombs going off too close to me - bomb delay only set to 2.5 seconds - going to increase that! I managed to survive the blast and flew all the way back to Leningrad, but the engine was dying on me, so I knew I wouldn't land - I wanted to have the plane crash in a field so I wouldn't destroy any houses, but I waited too long to jump - sad indeed - I jumped, my chute opened, and I had about a second before I splatted on the ground - next time the houses can bite the dust for all I care! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Did the run again, and you'd think I'd learn from my lesson, but noooo - there I was, too close to the train again - boom - this time it was so bad it sheared off the ends of both my wings and I had no time to even say a prayer

maybe I'll learn, some day! didn't even have to use bombs - blew up the train with cannons, even though we were loaded with bombs...

guess I should have saved the track to see where my bombs are falling, and how much delay I should put in them, but since I can do the train with just cannons, I won't be dropping my bombs on it again

when I crashed, the time I was talking about before, when I nosed over and broke the props, I didn't wait to see if the plane flipped

thought I might get the mission finished if I left right away - instant success is not enabled

so next time I know to just wait, assuming the plane doesn't blow up with me in it

got promoted again to Starshiy Lt.

first promotion was a week after arriving - this one took just under two 'months' game time - so now that I have a clue, I can be a little more careful, and live longer, then worry about killing and getting promoted

Kark out

Karkadann
11-02-2004, 11:29 PM
Flew the train mission again and watched the track after - I blew up because one of the train cars blew up and I flew right through the fireball

So I did it again, this time using only cannons, and pulled up before I got to the train - still too close!

Didn't blow up, but didn't get to land - at least this time I managed to jump with my chute and survive - and I won the Hero Of The Soviet Union/Order Of Lenin

Beware, bearers of the Black Cross, for Karkadann is awake!

WTE_Galway
11-03-2004, 03:38 PM
did a few la5 runs against a ju88 last night just out of curiosity

the bird is not as fragile as a 109 but still takes hits easy so against bombers you need to fly a bit like a 109 or spit, ducking and weaving over and under closing at speed and extending away and coming back .. would post a track but was using an unpatched AEP

steeper attack, earlier release (needs spot on timing)and longer bomb delay might help against the train .. ground attack is actually quite hard to get right

Karkadann
11-03-2004, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
did a few la5 runs against a ju88 last night just out of curiosity

the bird is not as fragile as a 109 but still takes hits easy so against bombers you need to fly a bit like a 109 or spit, ducking and weaving over and under closing at speed and extending away and coming back .. would post a track but was using an unpatched AEP

steeper attack, earlier release (needs spot on timing)and longer bomb delay might help against the train .. ground attack is actually quite hard to get right <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what you mean fly a bit like a 109 or spit - since I haven't flown much of either - unless you're talking about dropping, pulling up to rake their bellies, then climbing over to do an attack from above, and back and forth?

I've been doing that but with an angle off of about 30 deg. which takes me out of attack range for a second run, at least, for a bit longer - means I have to set up from a bit of a distance, instead of from up close, but I like to make sure I'm out of their gun range before I start the second run

Let me give you a typical scenario

Lets say I'm at a distance of 1500 meters off to their right, about 500 meters above, and on a parallel course

I will turn into them when they are beside me (maybe I should wait until I'm ahead, since I typically end up having to come in from a bit behind) and dive at them with about that 30deg. angle off - If I give myself enough lead while flying at them this way, I can wind up getting a shot right across the front of the aircraft, but not a very long one - still, it means I am out of their sights so I can avoid more of the return fire (talking about bombers here) and then I will pull up hard, bobbing and weaving to avoid their fire, using the rudder to add to my non linear path

Once they are behind me near 1500-2000 metres, I will already be pretty high, and I will cut the throttle, invert, pull my nose down hard and in their direction, using rudder if necessary, to give a very tight turn (almost like an induced stall) and once I am pointed at them I will give it another go

That's all fine and dandy when it is just me against the AI in QMB, but in a mission, when I have teammates, the only way I typically get a kill like that is if I am far away from my AI teammates, because they will typically finish off the enemy after I make them limp on the first pass, before I can get my second pass in

The AI doesn't always steal my kills like that, but it happens more than it should (I know, I just have to live with it) so I guess the only solution is to get to be so good with guns that I kill them on the first pass, aye? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've gotten a fair bit of practice against trains now - new mission was a town, where we were supposed to protect our bombers - morons flew right over another town filled with AAA - and I went and did my own thing, took out a train while they were busy with the AAA and such at their own target - guess that won't work - with the combination of the enemy fighters, AAA over their target, and AAA near our own base (over which they flew, by default, to get home) we lost 13 planes - the enemy lost 5

I guess there is a time to ignore your prime objective, and a time to help out

LoL

I have found that I don't need bombs against the trains - cannons are fine - against tanks, however, I love bombs

Too bad I can't take over the wing, because one thing I was really good at in Falcon 4 was telling the AI when to attack what

I would have the secondary pair carrying HARMs and AA missiles, and would have them take out radar at long range, then watch for air threats, then I had my wingman take out missile sites after the HARMs had done their job and then have him watch for air threats, then I would move in for the primary target

It worked like a charm, assuming the AI did what it was told

In this type of mission (bombers attacking enemy HQ in a town defended by AAA) I would tell a couple of the fighters to take out the AAA first, while the bombers hang back, and at the same time, have other fighters take out the enemy aircraft, if possible - or do that first, if need be - but I guess it isn't possible to get the bombers to hang back, or to get the other flights to do what you want - is it?

Or does that change later, do you get complete control of the squadron if you get high enough, and can change mission plans, or only for your flight?