PDA

View Full Version : Deck Gun Happiness



Dr.Trespasser
04-01-2005, 03:16 PM
Hey, I wanted to see what strategies and craziness the rest of you deck gun lovers and users employ when manning the gun. What important things have you noticed about the different guns, their ammo and its effects and other things about deck gun engagements.

A few things I've noticed (please add your opinions)

1) HE ammo is cool for merchants up to "small merchants" usually only takes me 5 rounds (coastal) and 5-8 for (small merchant)

2) Its better to shoot one torpedo at a C2 and then finish it off with the DG than just shoot it up with the DG. Seems to take 18-25 HE below waterline rounds to kill a C2. Slightly less if AP is used.

3) Never engage any Navy ships larger than a Armed Trawler with the DG unless you are (a)dont care about your ammo supply (b)suicidal, or (c)repeatedly reloading the game when something crappy happens.

4) Setting stuff on fire and blowing things off a ship seem not to help anything.

What have you all noticed?

Lovo_Kasistan
04-01-2005, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4) Setting stuff on fire and blowing things off a ship seem not to help anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, once I shot on the barrels on the bow of an already damaged T2 with my 2mm and was amazed when the whole thing exploded and sunk. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

farcry454853
04-01-2005, 03:41 PM
Do AP rounds work? Do they punch holes in the hull and make the ship take on water?

Pr0metheus 1962
04-01-2005, 03:55 PM
Ever since I knocked all the guns off a destroyer on full realism I decided the deck gun was just too unrealistic for me. Now if I have to use it I get the AI crew to man it, and that brings me 'deck gun happiness' because they can't hit the broad side of a barn (which brings the uber deck gun down somewhere close to realistic levels.

Dr.Trespasser
04-01-2005, 04:31 PM
I too believe the deck gun is a little unrealistic. I doubt many U-Boat crews nocked out ships at 3.5-4km with the deck gun like I do all the time. The AI gunners are crazy, the their first shot is always like 45-90 degrees off. Also, they really need to take their time and actually aim instead of pouring on their shots like an autocannon. When not under fire there should be a cammand to carefully aim.

I just remembered something about the DG I wanted to add.

If a ship is half sunk but just wont go down, shooting at the top deck if its possible because of the tilt seems to cause some good dammage.

ncsavoj
04-01-2005, 04:44 PM
I just hate that it is 100% accurate. If you have the range, and have it lined up right..you cant miss. Even at 6k+. I play WWII OL religiously and in that game, the panzer 4g starts to lose accuracy at about 500m..at 1000m you are hitting about a 10ft circle. Even the 88 loses accuracy at 2000m...

Koderic
04-01-2005, 04:55 PM
I just wish I can finish something off with the AA-gun when the deck gun is out of ammo...

Anyone have success with this? I haven't yet, just shot off flags and junk on the deck, nothing damaging.

You'd think 300 armor piercing bullets shot into the bridge at would do more damage.

Lovo_Kasistan
04-01-2005, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Koderic:
You'd think 300 armor piercing bullets shot into the bridge at would do more damage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
3,7mm or 2mm?

Wolf52371
04-01-2005, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lovo_Kasistan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Koderic:
You'd think 300 armor piercing bullets shot into the bridge at would do more damage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
3,7mm or 2mm? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats really big caliber there, a pea shooter would be bigger! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lovo_Kasistan
04-01-2005, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolf52371:
Thats really big caliber there, a pea shooter would be bigger! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Argh, right. I meant centimeter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

blue_76
04-01-2005, 05:08 PM
i don't bother with it, let these guys shoot
they are happy shooting and i'm happy enjoying the fire works http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://rddesigns.com/subs/194-3.jpg

Schepke-U-100
04-01-2005, 05:21 PM
I came across a fishing trawler and opened up on it with my twin 20cm AA gun... It set that thing on fire quicker than you could say "Gimme a light" There was an explosion and then she went down... I only used one clip of ammo on her too... haha! Thats a cheap kill, even if they do only count as 89 tons...

Maj_Death
04-01-2005, 06:51 PM
I won't hesitate to take on a flower corvette with the deck gun, but any larger warship is a bad idea unless it is the only option.

StellarRat
04-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Why do you think knocking out the guns on a destroyer is unrealistic? You guys seem to be under the impression that they were armored death machines! They were not armored in most cases except against MG bullets in certain areas. An 88 would be very effective against them. Granted they will probably kill you 90% of the time due to superior firepower and fire control systems, but it is certainly possible that with good shooting and luck an 88 could damage or even sink one.

Idawen
04-01-2005, 08:52 PM
Yep thats true you can sink one.
Last patrol i was out of torps, saved the game and was ready to go "back to base" just as i heard "warship ahead" - was a V&W-Destroyer. Dammn, no Torpedoes left but i have a savegame so make some funny gunning - rudder to 35? starboard and engines to full i started circling him clockwise - the destroyer started the same thing, only counterclockwise ;-) The nice thing is that the VIIB has a better turning ratio than the V&W so i stayed always inside the circle and he could not simply crush me. He shot me down to 60% Hull integrity but then he sunk - i had not one crewman lost or even a wounded one^^

Pr0metheus 1962
04-01-2005, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:
Why do you think knocking out the guns on a destroyer is unrealistic? You guys seem to be under the impression that they were armored death machines! They were not armored in most cases except against MG bullets in certain areas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, firstly, a destroyer WAS an armoured death machine - at least as far as U-Boats are concerned - destroyers are built with the sole purpose of destroying U-Boats. Anyway, it's not the armour that's really the problem (although it certainly plays a part). It's that the deck gun is unrealistically accurate. As for the armour, I just think it's a little bit odd that the U-Boat deck gun seems to be far stronger (defensively) than a destroyer's deck gun when the destroyer's gun actually has an armoured turret and the U-Boat's has none. Just look in the config file and you'll see the armour ratings. Food for thought?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>An 88 would be very effective against them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is NOT a standard 88 as you might traditionally think of it. This is not by any means comparable to the famous 88mm anti-tank gun. This 88 is mounted on about the most unstable gun platform you can possibly get. Even if you could aim this gun that well, which I sincerely doubt, to shoot off a gun turret in one shot is physically impossible. The turret armour is there for a reason.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Granted they will probably kill you 90% of the time due to superior firepower and fire control systems <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd think so, but the fact is, they don't. I can pretty much guarantee that if I can man the deck gun I can kill a destroyer in the game before he does any serious damage to my sub.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but it is certainly possible that with good shooting and luck an 88 could damage or even sink one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be entirely inconceivable that a U-Boat could go up against a destroyer one on one, and survive. It could not happen, even with good shooting and luck. If it could have happened, it WOULD have happened a number of times, and as far as I'm aware it NEVER happened. If it never happened in reality, it should not happen in a simulation.

msxyz
04-02-2005, 12:01 AM
I enjoyed engaging torpedo boats with the deck gun. A well placed hit from an HE shell is enough to set them ablaze.

Quite unrealistic, though. With their 20mm guns they should have been able to punch a neat hole through the pressure hull making the submersible unable to dive. Not to mention that even submarines may be sunken with a torpedo (and quite a few were...)

Black-Phoenix
04-02-2005, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:

Well, firstly, a destroyer WAS an armoured death machine - at least as far as U-Boats are concerned - destroyers are built with the sole purpose of destroying U-Boats. Anyway, it's not the armour that's really the problem (although it certainly plays a part). It's that the deck gun is unrealistically accurate. As for the armour, I just think it's a little bit odd that the U-Boat deck gun seems to be far stronger (defensively) than a destroyer's deck gun when the destroyer's gun actually has an armoured turret and the U-Boat's has none. Just look in the config file and you'll see the armour ratings. Food for thought?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>An 88 would be very effective against them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is NOT a standard 88 as you might traditionally think of it. This is not by any means comparable to the famous 88mm anti-tank gun. This 88 is mounted on about the most unstable gun platform you can possibly get. Even if you could aim this gun that well, which I sincerely doubt, to shoot off a gun turret in one shot is physically impossible. The turret armour is there for a reason.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Granted they will probably kill you 90% of the time due to superior firepower and fire control systems <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd think so, but the fact is, they don't. I can pretty much guarantee that if I can man the deck gun I can kill a destroyer in the game before he does any serious damage to my sub.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but it is certainly possible that with good shooting and luck an 88 could damage or even sink one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be entirely inconceivable that a U-Boat could go up against a destroyer one on one, and survive. It could not happen, even with good shooting and luck. If it could have happened, it WOULD have happened a number of times, and as far as I'm aware it NEVER happened. If it never happened in reality, it should not happen in a simulation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Famous 88 or not, that gun would tear a destroyer up. You're also comparing this sim and what you can do in it to real life based on some skewed thinking. Subs in WWII didn't take on destroyers in gun battles because they were armored death machines, they didn't do it because one hit on the hull that penetrated the boat and they were were committed to a life or death fight with no escape and to repair it would take forever while they were on the surface. In this sim you can actually repair that damage. The gun does bob up and down as you try and fire and yes it is pretty accurate if you pay attention to the barrel bobbing up and down.

I've had shootouts with destroyers for fun and sometimes I get lucky and trash them at long range, other times I get trashed before I can even get a shot off. Add to that how often you get weather where you can actually use the deck gun and I don't think it's all that bad.

Convoys not scattering and allowing you to sink them one after the other is pretty sad. I hope they do change that.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-02-2005, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
You're also comparing this sim and what you can do in it to real life based on some skewed thinking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I'm saying is that a simulation should simulate. This one doesn't. You can take on a destroyer in the game, yet that was suicide in real life. It's not 'skewed thinking' to expoect a submarine simulation to model the realities of sub combat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Subs in WWII didn't take on destroyers in gun battles because they were armored death machines, they didn't do it because one hit on the hull that penetrated the boat and they were were committed to a life or death fight with no escape and to repair it would take forever while they were on the surface. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, then why doesn't the simulation simulate that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In this sim you can actually repair that damage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You cannot repair damage done to the pressure hull - not while you're at sea.

globbyfolly
04-02-2005, 08:04 AM
Destroyers were not built for the sole purpose of destroying U-Boats. They were built for a small, fast, secondary ship to complement a task force of larger ships and were generally sent on missions that the larger ships couldn't be spared for. Then, later, they were dedicated for hunting U-Boats.

Black-Phoenix
04-02-2005, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
You're also comparing this sim and what you can do in it to real life based on some skewed thinking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I'm saying is that a simulation should simulate. This one doesn't. You can take on a destroyer in the game, yet that was suicide in real life. It's not 'skewed thinking' to expoect a submarine simulation to model the realities of sub combat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Subs in WWII didn't take on destroyers in gun battles because they were armored death machines, they didn't do it because one hit on the hull that penetrated the boat and they were were committed to a life or death fight with no escape and to repair it would take forever while they were on the surface. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, then why doesn't the simulation simulate that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In this sim you can actually repair that damage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You cannot repair damage done to the pressure hull - not while you're at sea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'll have to ask the dev's that. I'm sure it was a tradeoff for something or another. You can't please everyone all the time. The point is that subs can do realistic damage with the deck gun from my point of view. They didn't in real life for different reasons than what you gave. That's what I meant by skewed thinking. You're basing your thinking that they didn't do it in real life and thus we shouldn't do it in the game based on the power and armor of the destroyer instead of the fragility of the sub. If the accuracy of the guns and the damage inflicted on the sub was modeled closer to real life you would get a more realistic gun battle. To say there weren't any in real life because the destroyer was too armored and the gun couldn't do much damage in real life is not correct in my opinion.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-02-2005, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
To say there weren't any in real life because the destroyer was too armored and the gun couldn't do much damage in real life is not correct in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any statistics to back up your opinion? It seems odd to me that a destroyer's turrets would be useless against the weapon of their main adversary. I mean why put armour on the turret if the armour doesn't work? Why use all that extra weight for a useless chunk of metal?

Black-Phoenix
04-02-2005, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
To say there weren't any in real life because the destroyer was too armored and the gun couldn't do much damage in real life is not correct in my opinion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have any statistics to back up your opinion? It seems odd to me that a destroyer's turrets would be useless against the weapon of their main adversary. I mean why put armour on the turret if the armour doesn't work? Why use all that extra weight for a useless chunk of metal? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Methinks you're avoiding the point so I'll let it drop. Suffice it to say that destroyers aren't armored beasts that can take shots from a deck gun on a sub and laugh as it pummels the sub. Maybe you can shoot the guns off a destroyer with the greatest of ease and maybe that should be addressed as we already agreed upon. Most of us would be lucky to hit the thing or even have the chance of hitting it before the sub is shot to pieces. I don't shoot destroyers with my deck gun myself. I find my sub shot out from under me far too fast and since when I die I start over I'm not too keen on staying in 1940 forever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
04-02-2005, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
Methinks you're avoiding the point so I'll let it drop. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not avoiding the point. I'm trying to get beyond mere opinion to actual facts. We can both spout opinion all we want, but it doesn't amount to anything unless we have hard data to back it up. I don't have any hard data - I'm just going off gut instinct. I was hoping you had some hard facts.

Black-Phoenix
04-02-2005, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black-Phoenix:
Methinks you're avoiding the point so I'll let it drop. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not avoiding the point. I'm trying to get beyond mere opinion to actual facts. We can both spout opinion all we want, but it doesn't amount to anything unless we have hard data to back it up. I don't have any hard data - I'm just going off gut instinct. I was hoping you had some hard facts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that makes two of us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My gut instinct tells me a 88 would do some serious damage to a destroyer and the reason they didn't in real life was not because they couldn't, but because the damage the sub would take in return was grossly not worth the risk http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Wolf52371
04-02-2005, 07:24 PM
Well, does anybody have the armor thickness stats for various destroyers? The 88 penetration stats should be too hard to find either, they should be over at the WWIIOL forums (during my time with that game it was a constant argument).

WereSnowleopard
04-02-2005, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
Ever since I knocked all the guns off a destroyer on full realism I decided the deck gun was just too unrealistic for me. Now if I have to use it I get the AI crew to man it, and that brings me 'deck gun happiness' because they can't hit the broad side of a barn (which brings the uber deck gun down somewhere close to realistic levels. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's thing I noticed AI deck gun crew can't hit ship well. One Problem,I was shunned to see one of 1940 mission, my flak crew shot 27 planes down.

Cheers
Snowleopard

Black-Phoenix
04-02-2005, 07:27 PM
Back to the topic though, I'd like to see MG fire from ships do some damage to the sub as well. Seems silly to watch those Elco's run up to you and then either blow them out of the water with the deck gun or wait til they get a bit closer and use the AA gun. Even though it is fun ;>

I'd like to also see them change the "AP" designation in the weapon management screen to AA.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-02-2005, 07:31 PM
Does anyone here have actual real life stats regarding the issue of deck gun effectiveness vs. destroyers?

fenian_ram
04-02-2005, 07:39 PM
I love my deck gun, the impacts are so satisfying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You can't see from this pic, but when this ship went up it was like fireworks; yellow, blue and red explosions. Hope I didn't ruin any little English kid's Guy Fawkes... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.dahlia.ie/dg.jpg

StellarRat
04-03-2005, 02:32 AM
BEERYUS -

"Destroyers (DDs) are multi-purpose ships that are useful in almost any kind of naval operation. They are fast ships with a variety of armament, but little or no armor. For protection, they depend on their speed and mobility. Their displacement varies from about 4,500 tons to 7,800 tons. The principal mission of destroyers is to operate offensively and defensively against submarines and surface ships and to take defensive action against air attacks."

That's closest I could find to any type of reference at all to destroyer armor thickness. I'm pretty sure the only reason they had turrets (non-armored), gun shields and the like is to protect the crew from weather, small arms fire and splinters. Basically, there is nothing on a destroyer that is going to stop an 88 shell, either HE or AP from doing significant damage. You have to move up to heavy cruiser class before ships get any real armor.

But, if someone can find any reference to any armor thickness on a DD please post it.

I think the problem with the deck gun is not the power, but how accurately you can fire them. I get more hits on the DD's at long range then they ever do on me. This is backwards. DD's should be far superior at long range gunnery than a U-Boat crew on a pitching deck. Most DD's had full fire control systems and could engage and destroy targets miles away.

Amnio
04-03-2005, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Koderic:
I just wish I can finish something off with the AA-gun when the deck gun is out of ammo...

Anyone have success with this? I haven't yet, just shot off flags and junk on the deck, nothing damaging. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've had success useing the AA on the type II u-boats against targets up to tug boat size. Also seem to work against tankers at times, if you can cause a secondary explosion in the carried fuels.

BaneSixEcho
04-03-2005, 06:21 PM
It has been my experience thus far that my deck gun crew (one of which is a certified gunner) cannot hit a thing at more than 2000m. 2000m to 1000m is a lot better and anything less than 1000m they can't miss.

I have yet tried to challenge a warship of any type (except torpedo boats) with the deck gun. I stick to merchants.

I just had a great time with the deck gun in my current patrol. 64 uninterrupted game hours of deck gun worthy seas. I sank 27,222 tons of merchant shipping without firing a single torpedo. I've got 14 torpedos and about 1/4 of my deck gun ammo left. This could turn out to be a personal best!

DEFkon2005
04-03-2005, 06:51 PM
Where do you guys aim to try and sink ships the fastest? Seems like most of the damage i do is just cosmetic.

But as much as i love the cannon, i'd have to say that it is unrealistic at least in terms of it's accuracy. The game doesn't seem to take into account bouncing of the deck or winds (not sure how much a 5 meter per second wind would effect a 88 though) but as someone who also plays those "deer hunter" sims, windage often plays a roll in long range shots, and alot of the times it's not something you can factor in, cause in reality wind isn't a constant, so between the time you fire and impact a nice gust might come along, an nudge it a half degree.

StellarRat
04-03-2005, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bane_v2:
It has been my experience thus far that my deck gun crew (one of which is a certified gunner) cannot hit a thing at more than 2000m. 2000m to 1000m is a lot better and anything less than 1000m they can't miss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't doubt that, but controlling the gun myself I'm able to hit destroyers at 3000 or 4000m after a few ranging shots.

hauitsme
04-03-2005, 10:28 PM
Check <span class="ev_code_yellow">this (http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm)</span> out.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index1.jpg

Pr0metheus 1962
04-03-2005, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hauitsme:
Check <span class="ev_code_yellow">http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm</span> out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's hard to fully decipher that, and maybe I'm reading it wrong, but judging by the info in the second table listed there, it would seem to indicate that the armour that was routinely used on turrets could stop a 4" shell.

CCIP
04-03-2005, 11:43 PM
I've beaten off a Flower corvette with it the other day.

The DG is VERY fun, esp. in manual. But I think it's a bit overpowered - or perhaps the ships are underprotected. I just impudently sunk 30,000+ tons in the Irish Sea without wasting a single torpedo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Black-Phoenix
04-04-2005, 03:33 AM
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc35.htm

There's some intesting info on the deck gun. I haven't been able to find any info on the armor for a destroyer though. I did see some info that listed light cruisers as having 2" armor on the turrets.

Here's some info on the US Fletcher class, still looking for British class destroyers.
http://www.microworks.net/pacific/ships/destroyers/fletcher.htm

axeman3d
04-04-2005, 04:41 AM
It appears very difficult to find definitive stats, and I doubt you'll find many instances of subs v DDs in the archives where they duked it out with guns.

Destroyers started out just before the turn of the 19th/20th century as Torpedo Boat Destroyers, as their job was to counter the threat of small, fast torpedo boats rushing in (particularly at night) and torpedoing the admirals beloved Dreadnoughts. No point having a huge Dreadnought if a tiny boat with 5 guys and 1 torpedo can sink it. They were basically enlarged MTBs with similar speed to a Torpedo boat, but with more guns and more armour to allow them to take the MTBs out.

Later they became offensive weapons too, as they were also armed with torpedos and could be used to rush in under the big guns of the dreadnoughts and fire a salvo of torps that would break a battle line and stop an attack. Again, there was no way to armour them against 16 inch shells from Dreadnoughts and cruisers, they relied on speed and agility.

Only after WWI was the Destroyer to take on the new roles of aircraft picket and U-Boat defense, and despite having grown in size from large MTBs, they were still only 1000-2000 tons in size. That means very little serious armour, pointless in a vessel so small anyway, and I have no doubt that an 88mm (3.5 inch) shell from a sub would sting a fair bit.

It's meaningless though, because there's no way in hell a U-Boat commander would duke it out on the surface with a destroyer without some incredible reason, due to several factors...

1. The Destroyer is far better armed and with better trained and equipped gun crews.
2. The Destroyer has more crew for more effective damage control.
3. The Destroyer is heavily compartmentalised to allow it to take hits below the waterline and still survive by sealing that area off. It has bouyancy to spare.
4. The destroyer has some armour.
5. The Destroyer is far faster and more agile, and a more stable gun platform.
6. The sub has no armour, no bouyancy to spare, maybe one medic if it's lucky, a part-time gunnery crew, and even one hit will probably stop a U-boat from ever submerging again, or if it does, it wont be coming back up.

It just wasn't worth it, the gun would definitely do some damage to a DD but you'd also definitely come off worse unless you got a very, very, very lucky first shot.

Black-Phoenix
04-04-2005, 05:21 AM
Correct Axeman3d, we're mainly talking about why they didn't. I assert that they could from an offensive prospective (Destroyers weren't immune from sub gunfire). I think Beeryus asserts they couldn't from an offensive perspective (Destroyers are too armored for the sub to have any real effect). We both agree a sub would probably loose such an engagement I think, we just differ on the reasons why.

mightyduck100
04-04-2005, 05:46 AM
Axeman is right. Seems kinda pointless sitting on the surface fighting in a Uboat.

You may aswell get rid of the torpedo tubes, mount a couple of extra deck guns, maybe add some depth programmable bombs. You could then rename it and call it ...hmmm...lets see...a destroyer.

So with such a powerful deck gun there is no need for a Uboat at all. What were those German designers thinking of. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif