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View Full Version : Would you shoot paratroopers? Should we have this option?



Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 01:53 AM
I just watched BBC's "Battlefields". One episode was about Arnhem(Spelling?) and the failed "Market Garden" mission. 10,000 paratroopers were dropped behind enemy lines to help secure 8 bridges with the belief their actions would end the war in another 6 months. This was of course possible but there were too many screw-ups from the battlefield leadership.

While we've had many discussions about "chute-shooting" and we almost all agree it's unethical, I don't remember a conversation about shooting paratroopers as they're descending.

Firstly, I'm not even sure that this situation is possible in the IL-2 series. I've seen the option in the loadout in QMB. The only time I've seen the paratroopers bail is when their plane was going down. For the purpose of this discussion, let's imagine the option for an defense against a paratrooper invasion exsists in IL-2.

In real, if you were flying in the area and saw enemy paratroopers dropping from their planes, it would be your duty to target them, just as it is the duty of your ground troops the fire up at the chutes. No different then a u-boat captain torpedoing a troopship.

Should this option be in the game? If it were in a coop, would you do it? Let's keep this one clean.

Fritz

JG52_Helgstrand
11-23-2005, 02:01 AM
Shoot 'em, they're just little pixel men after all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ploughman
11-23-2005, 02:42 AM
You'd shoot the plane they were in before. The guys on the ground who'd have to deal with them'd shoot them in their chutes. Both sides shot paratroopers whilst they were under their canopies in real life. They aren't actually real.

Shoot them.

Waldo.Pepper
11-23-2005, 02:53 AM
Well it is a hypothetical question as not one of us were there. So as long as we all realize it is hypothtical (and not to be taken too seriously, as no one really knows how you would react in the situation) - I'd shoot my Mother if I thought it would save me, or help hasten the end of the war.

So yup you bet shoot the guys in the chutes and sleep well that night.

BenvZijl
11-23-2005, 02:57 AM
it happened in real live so why not in virtual life.

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 03:01 AM
bomb on ground or shoot in air both find or shoot down plane that carry them. all are no so nice. i prefer play with enemy fighter in air ^_^

mauld
11-23-2005, 03:02 AM
In real life it is permited under the geneva convention to shoot paratroopers decending in parachutes, it is not permitted to shoot downed airmen decending in parachutes.

CaptAce
11-23-2005, 03:02 AM
Would I shoot paratroopers in game? No! It just wouldn't be 'sporting' and that is what games are all about, right?

Would I shoot paratroopers given the chance in real life? Heck yes! Anyone or anything that can pose a threat to myself or my fellow servicemen needs to be eliminated if given the chance.

On a side note, I think that anyone that tries answering questions of ethics in regards to warfare is thinking about an absurd notion. The whole idea and premise of war is unethical! I sure as heck didn't see anything ethical about war when I was involved in combat.

Feathered_IV
11-23-2005, 03:02 AM
Fly the Mistel. Ram them.

As Sigourney Weaver says - Its the only way to be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ebsy
11-23-2005, 03:39 AM
In this game I never fire at chutes but I've been up against many opposing pilots who are more than willing to (I suppose they have to get a kill somehow :P )

HOWEVER...When I used to fly in WWIIONLINE I'd have no problems shooting enemy paratroopers especially if they were dropping on a town my fellow squadmembers were in.

The bailing pilots in this game pose no threat to the other side...I wonder if opinions would change if the downed pilots were capable of causing some damage/harm to the enemy?.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Arcadeace:
Since its unethical is some minds yet not in others, contrary to what you've stated... the questions really are first and formost:

Contrary to what I stated? Which statement? The one where most agree that it's unethical to shoot pilots in chutes? How is that contrary to "unethical is some minds but not others:?


Originally posted by Arcadeace:
Does Perschjaeger believe this should be an option?

Not sure yet. I was thinking of a mission where we'd be involved offensively or defensively, regarding a large scale invasion. So far I haven't seen a mission like this. Could be interesting for a coop.


Originally posted by Arcadeace:
Would Perschjaeger do it?

In real or in a sim, yes.


Originally posted by Arcadeace:Then, after you fully explain your position, up front... on with the great *ethical* debate, while I finish some work and prepare for a good sleep.

Sitting. Need a further explanation? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Originally posted by Arcadeace:
Oh BTW, my opinion? If I know you want to kill me, I'm gonna get you first. No nice guy second chances. And nooo guilt here Fritzy.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Dude, you got issues. Why would I wanna kill my number #1 fan?

What has it been, 10 month's now? I don't know what I ever did to aggravate you but I assure you, it wasn't intentional nor was it personal.

This may come as a shock or a big let down for you but I like you. I read your posts in other threads and agree but rarely post after since I know your reaction.

Like always, I offer for you to send me PT and say what you want, but you never have. What else can I do?

Fritz

arcadeace
11-23-2005, 03:46 AM
I know I deleted it lol, didn't really read it and jumped the gun - BANG! All I wanted to see was little-boy Fritzs falling from the sky http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Nice to see you hve a good time responding. I gave this one to ya.

For now on tho when you post your discussion for the day, be up front and state exactly how you believe concerning your issue. It gets tiring these 'I'm curious what you think' threads only to watch your gradual opinions angle in untill finally you have to get the last definitive word, seemingly not matter what.

MEGILE
11-23-2005, 03:50 AM
I shoot bailed pilots in game for the comedy value, and Pirsh, I'd shoot you too.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by CaptAce:
On a side note, I think that anyone that tries answering questions of ethics in regards to warfare is thinking about an absurd notion. The whole idea and premise of war is unethical! I sure as heck didn't see anything ethical about war when I was involved in combat.

I agree with you 100%. But, I must add that in this forum, ethics always come up. The mentioning of ethics is for respect for those that believe we need them in the game.

We are looking for realism in this sim, henceforth "sim". When I play I try to make it as real as possible. I don't believe it gets anywhere near the reality of war and combat but I try never-the-less.

When I fly against an enemy squadron, I'll take action according to what I think I'd do in real. If I have a nice 1 vs 1 fight and win, I'll let the pilot survive his jump. If I see an enemy plane continue to shoot my buddy when his plane is already out of action, I'll purpodely hunt that enemy pilot and even shoot his chute if he bails. I imagine that's what I'd do in real.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
I shoot bailed pilots in game for the comedy value, and Pirsh, I'd shoot you too.

Thx for the warning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BTW, I expected no less anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Tully__
11-23-2005, 03:55 AM
Firstly, I'm not even sure that this situation is possible in the IL-2 series. It's nominally possible, but parachutes are a real frame rate killer so if your machine is not top end it may not be practical.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Arcadeace:
For now on tho when you post your discussion for the day, be up front and state exactly how you believe concerning your issue. It gets tiring these 'I'm curious what you think' threads only to watch your gradual opinions angle in untill finally you have to get the last definitive word, seemingly not matter what.

I'm still curious. Which part am I not up front about?

The title and lastline were not enough? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Enforcer572005
11-23-2005, 03:57 AM
Ethics in a video game....now that's immersion.

Ive waded into a sky full of paras in the original IL-2, only got a couple of them (sorta like shooting out a car's tires-not as easy as it looks).

Not only did I not have any trouble shooting the little photonic soldiers (only star trekers will know what that means), I actually laughed as i found myself busily trying harder not to hit them with my plane-that'll kill you.

the only factor i would consider in real life would be how P#ssed they would be once they got on the ground. Ask the German soldiers that fired into the descending Polish paras in market garden. I recomend the movie "a bridge too far" by the way.

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 03:58 AM
i guess just soft ^_^ doubt would in game or real life doubt even would fight/kill real life just no my consicous let me do.

photonic = photon particle of light that act like wave which moniter emit and you eye register as image on screen. so photonic paratroop = unreal image of paratrooper moniter create use photons ? ^_^

sorry bad explaination/ guess hard try describe english

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Firstly, I'm not even sure that this situation is possible in the IL-2 series. It's nominally possible, but parachutes are a real frame rate killer so if your machine is not top end it may not be practical. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought about this before. I figured this is the reason we don't have many moving vehicles also. I'd love to be able to look down and see 50+ tanks moving in one direction through the forests and fields.

This sim is ahead of the pc industry. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

arcadeace
11-23-2005, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arcadeace:
For now on tho when you post your discussion for the day, be up front and state exactly how you believe concerning your issue. It gets tiring these 'I'm curious what you think' threads only to watch your gradual opinions angle in untill finally you have to get the last definitive word, seemingly not matter what.

I'm still curious. Which part am I not up front about?

The title and lastline were not enough? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to see we now know how Fritz thinks concerning this one.

You're gonna have to accept that I don't want to get personal with you. Sorry. I kinda think of you like Baldie said in his wisdom:

"Some will want to like you for no real reason."

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
i guess just soft ^_^ doubt would in game or real life doubt even would fight/kill real life just no my consicous let me do.

I think survival and situation decide how our consciences would be. I never want to be in the situation where I'd have to kill another person. I imagine every soldier in every army thought this way before they saw action.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 04:04 AM
Don't be offended if I ignore you Arcadeace. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 04:09 AM
have reason for think that fritz-san, survial no top my agenda be honest ^_^ my reason many and complicate which rather no discuss public. if want pt i no mind like philsophical thing

SeaFireLIV
11-23-2005, 04:19 AM
Ahh, the clash of personalities, don`t cha just love it!

1,Paratroopers I`d shoot as they`re going to land and then shoot me. Cure: Don`t parachute where the enmy can see you.

2,Bailers from fighters I won`t shoot. Yea, I know, they`ll hop back in later and come back, but that`s just me.

3, My mother. I wouldn`t shoot.


4, My best friend.... maybe.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/pilotsfire.jpg
Who would you shoot?

arcadeace
11-23-2005, 04:26 AM
your best friend, maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

how about Maggie, would you put one in her?

SeaFireLIV
11-23-2005, 04:28 AM
Dear oh dear, arcadeace. we are getting personal, aren`t we. Calm down, m8, you`re getting too involved. It`s quite clear.

arcadeace
11-23-2005, 04:30 AM
just skidding. Humour it is good buddie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
have reason for think that fritz-san, survial no top my agenda be honest ^_^ my reason many and complicate which rather no discuss public. if want pt i no mind like philsophical thing

Ok Kenji, I'd like to hear your opinions and thoughts. Check your PT. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Fox_3
11-23-2005, 05:04 AM
In the real world, the shooting of paratroopers in the air is a legitimate act of war according to the Geneva convention.

As paras are elite troops it would make sense to kill as many in the air as possible. Before they get organised on the ground.

However it is a war crime to shoot at bailing air crew.

neural_dream
11-23-2005, 05:05 AM
Paratroopers of course yes and Bailers of course not, unless you're some kind of lunatic.

It's so clear I don't see why one should even think about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Fox_3:
In the real world, the shooting of paratroopers in the air is a legitimate act of war according to the Geneva convention.

As paras are elite troops it would make sense to kill as many in the air as possible. Before they get organised on the ground.

However it is a war crime to shoot at bailing air crew.

I wouldn't want to be a paratrooper. It seems they were often far off the mark. Not such a good thing in the battlefield. The time from jumping out the plane to the time you touched ground must have seemed like an eternity.

Fritz

BaldieJr
11-23-2005, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
I shoot bailed pilots in game for the comedy value, and Pirsh, I'd shoot you too.

I could make a religion out of this idea.

Zeus-cat
11-23-2005, 05:35 AM
Fox_3 is correct. The Geneva Convention allows you to shoot paratroopers in their chutes as they are active combatants. Aircrew who abandon their plane are considered out of the fight and you can't shoot them per the Convention. I learned this while in officers training the U.S. Air Force.

Zeus-cat

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2005, 05:37 AM
I find it phenomenal that a difference can be drawn between a paratrooper & a bailed out enemy pilot. Both are trying to KILL you, your wife & your children & your nation & the lifestyle the nation represents. If you are willing to show mercy to a bailed out pilot that 2 minutes ago was trying to burn you alive in the cockpit then good luck to you. If the geneva convention states its OK to kill paras in their chutes, but dont kill the helpless pilot or crew that just bailed out of their plane after bombing civilians then goodluck to those who wrote the piece of **** in order to sanctify war, they may have never seen it, or never experienced the dark side of the human being. How can anybody create rules to war, the only rules are the one enforced by the victors & every war criminal comes from the defeated regime.

On a lighter note I would machinegun both in game, no quarter given no quarter recieved

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-23-2005, 05:39 AM
Do they still rip your wings off (or worse) if you ram them in game?

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by BaldieJr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
I shoot bailed pilots in game for the comedy value, and Pirsh, I'd shoot you too.

I could make a religion out of this idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's nice to know I'm in your prayers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 05:45 AM
"Do they still rip your wings off (or worse) if you ram them in game?"

yes ai ram me while go p_q

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by dasriech:
I find it phenomenal that a difference can be drawn between a paratrooper & a bailed out enemy pilot. Both are trying to KILL you, your wife & your children & your nation & the lifestyle the nation represents. If you are willing to show mercy to a bailed out pilot that 2 minutes ago was trying to burn you alive in the cockpit then good luck to you. If the geneva convention states its OK to kill paras in their chutes, but dont kill the helpless pilot or crew that just bailed out of their plane after bombing civilians then goodluck to those who wrote the piece of **** in order to sanctify war, they may have never seen it, or never experienced the dark side of the human being. How can anybody create rules to war, the only rules are the one enforced by the victors & every war criminal comes from the defeated regime.

On a lighter note I would machinegun both in game, no quarter given no quarter recieved

Hey Dasreich, long time no see.

I agree with you. But if you do this online some servers will kick you. I once got kicked for flying into a chute. Didn't matter anyway, I was short one wing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Feathered_IV
11-23-2005, 05:55 AM
Once paratroopers get in under your gutters, they will breed like mad in the roof cavity and leave big yellow stains on your ceiling.

Vermin, be sure.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-23-2005, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Once paratroopers get in under your gutters, they will breed like mad in the roof cavity and leave big yellow stains on your ceiling.

Vermin, be sure.

You've lived in Aldershot too, I see. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2005, 06:06 AM
I suppose the next question is

"Should we strafe enemy aircraft on the ground? I mean, gosh they havnt got a fighting chance. Its just not cricket"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

ploughman
11-23-2005, 06:15 AM
Aircraft is just stuff arranged in a cunning manner.

Now machine gunning pilots in whilst they were having a shower, or maybe a cup of tea and some quality time with a broad sheet, that would not be cricket.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by dasriech:
I suppose the next question is

"Should we strafe enemy aircraft on the ground? I mean, gosh they havnt got a fighting chance. Its just not cricket"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Was this ever a question? They are my favorite ground target. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Fritz

TheCrux
11-23-2005, 07:07 AM
I remember a most interesting/fun QMB situation and grey area:

I was flying a MIG-3 and attacking a Ju-52 with 18 paratroopers. After corkscrewing from upper left to lower right to bring myself at a firing postion at his 4-5 O'clock low and preparing to rake his wings and fuselage; just then all the paras began piling out and I rained the MIG's 3 guns fire right at the door as they were _just_ exiting and killed them all. I was still technically shooting at just the plane......... I oughtta try that out on a Me-323 and stack the dead up like cordwood, that is, if the 'Gigant' doesn't riddle me full of bullets first.

No matter though, as paras are shot on sight by me. I do not shoot figher pilots or bomber crew bailing out though.

skycaptain_1
11-23-2005, 07:59 AM
You've lived in Aldershot too, I see.

Hey I WAS born in Aldershot!..never saw any paratroopers..must have come out at night.

sky

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-23-2005, 08:05 AM
They are better looking in the dark.

They've got short legs from all that hitting the ground too hard and tend to drink lager and blackurrant juice - ring any bells now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


(Sits back and waits for ex-paratrooper to wade into me.)

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:07 AM
There's an Aldershot in Eastern Canada, N.B. IIRC. Anyway, you'll find paratroopers there too. It's a military training base.

Fritz

Freelancer-1
11-23-2005, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:


While we've had many discussions about "chute-shooting" and we almost all agree it's unethical, I don't remember a conversation about shooting paratroopers as they're descending.


Should this option be in the game? If it were in a coop, would you do it? Let's keep this one clean.

Fritz

If the mission brief (I'm one of the few who actually read them), says "shoot the paratroopers" then I shoot the paratroopers.

'nuff said

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:


While we've had many discussions about "chute-shooting" and we almost all agree it's unethical, I don't remember a conversation about shooting paratroopers as they're descending.


Should this option be in the game? If it were in a coop, would you do it? Let's keep this one clean.

Fritz

If the mission brief (I'm one of the few who actually read them), says "shoot the paratroopers" then I shoot the paratroopers.

'nuff said </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoken like a true soldier. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You served right?

Fritz

FliegerAas
11-23-2005, 08:54 AM
Why should I waste my ammo? When paratroopers land ingame they run a few meters and lay down. I doubt that they have influence on the battlefield with that kind of combat moral http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. Sometimes they jump into the sea and drown. That's also a strategy that seems highly dodgy to me.
Anyways, I keep spending my ammo on planes.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by FliegerAas:
Why should I waste my ammo? Sometimes they jump into the sea and drown.

Environmental protection,.....expired fishing licenses http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Good God! Defend the Earth man! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jugent
11-23-2005, 09:37 AM
Its legal according to Genever Convention.
A paratrooper is a fighting soldier and is expected to put up a fight after landing. He is a legitimate target.
A pilot in a chute isnt, he has left his battlestation and is expected to escape or give up after he has landed.
If a pilot starts to run or shoot at hostile soldiers he is a fighting man and a legal target.
If a a/c full of paratroopers is shoot down and all are leaving the plane they sometimes are, sometimes arnt legal targets.
If they jump over see they are not suspected to fight after landing, but if they jump over land they are.
The pilot anyhow is a non-combattant until he is running or fighting back.
You can compare it to a commando-soldier in an landing craft. He is a legitimate target, but if he is on a life-raft after the ship is sunk, he is a non-combattant.
They shall all be treated by the Genever convetion if they fulfill some standards,

They shall carry their weapon so you can see it.

They must have some sort of recognition, uniform, badge, helmet etc etc.

They must be organized in some hierachy, in a army, open or hidden.

The last fulfillment is doubtable if you look at "terrorists" from Iraq and Afghanistan. Its not clear that they are enlisted in a organisation.

A hunter with a gun is a civillian, but he can as well be a combattant. If he fires first, he is a combattant and free target.

If a person dont fulfill the standards of a combattant, he is to be treaten like an ordinary criminal.

Its legal for a combattant to kill, for a non-combattant its unlegal in most countries.

Complicated?

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by jugent:
Its legal according to Genever Convention.
A paratrooper is a fighting soldier and is expected to put up a fight after landing. He is a legitimate target.
A pilot in a chute isnt, he has left his battlestation and is expected to escape or give up after he has landed.
If a pilot starts to run or shoot at hostile soldiers he is a fighting man and a legal target.
If a a/c full of paratroopers is shoot down and all are leaving the plane they sometimes are, sometimes arnt legal targets.
If they jump over see they are not suspected to fight after landing, but if they jump over land they are.
The pilot anyhow is a non-combattant until he is running or fighting back.
You can compare it to a commando-soldier in an landing craft. He is a legitimate target, but if he is on a life-raft after the ship is sunk, he is a non-combattant.
They shall all be treated by the Genever convetion if they fulfill some standards,

They shall carry their weapon so you can see it.

They must have some sort of recognition, uniform, badge, helmet etc etc.

They must be organized in some hierachy, in a army, open or hidden.

The last fulfillment is doubtable if you look at "terrorists" from Iraq and Afghanistan. Its not clear that they are enlisted in a organisation.

A hunter with a gun is a civillian, but he can as well be a combattant. If he fires first, he is a combattant and free target.

If a person dont fulfill the standards of a combattant, he is to be treaten like an ordinary criminal.

Its legal for a combattant to kill, for a non-combattant its unlegal in most countries.

Complicated?

I see your point, just shoot. He might not have a pen to fill in the questionaire. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Chuck_Older
11-23-2005, 10:08 AM
What's so sacred about paratroopers? They are soldiers, armed and prepared to attack. There was no question about sinking troop transports at sea, or shooting down aircraft carrying Admirals across the ocean, or shooting Higgins Boats landing on a beach, or strafing a truck full of soldiers, or bombing troop barracks, but paratroopers merit a special consideration? How so?

ploughman
11-23-2005, 10:18 AM
Anyone live near either Aldershot or Fort Bragg want to pop down to the local pub/bar, locate a group of healthy looking young men with extreme hair-cuts, and ask them this question?

Hawgdog
11-23-2005, 10:31 AM
I recall some noob map maker allowed AI ME-323's in the dogfight server and of course, we loaded them up with paratroopers, and dropped the troopers over the enemy base.
Talk about lag and a sky full of targets!

Chuck_Older
11-23-2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Anyone live near either Aldershot or Fort Bragg want to pop down to the local pub/bar, locate a group of healthy looking young men with extreme hair-cuts, and ask them this question?

What question is that?

ploughman
11-23-2005, 11:39 AM
Would you shoot paratroopers? Should we have this option?

Breeze147
11-23-2005, 11:57 AM
Shoot 'em all, let god sort 'em out.

CaptAce
11-23-2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Anyone live near either Aldershot or Fort Bragg want to pop down to the local pub/bar, locate a group of healthy looking young men with extreme hair-cuts, and ask them this question?

It's funny because I did AIT, jump school, RIP, and parts of Ranger school at Ft. Bragg. Even as an airborne Ranger I said earliar in this thread that I'd shoot opfor paratroopers while they were in the chute. Every troop knows the risks of their job and also knows that you have to get the other guy before he gets you (or your buddy).

Be that as it may, you're right. If you walked up to a Ranger and said you'd like to shoot him in their chute, then you're definately asking for an @ss-kickin'!

LameDuck.
11-23-2005, 12:26 PM
Paratrooper in the house, Y'all! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Which of you knotheads came up with this bone-headed thread in the first place?

Bremspropeller
11-23-2005, 12:31 PM
I'd not shoot them achute...but I'd strafe the feckers once aground.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

danjama
11-23-2005, 01:50 PM
I havnt read thewhole thread, i can pretty much create the middle three pages in my head without reading through them.

Fritz, i think i would shoot em down. Now, i will stop thinkin as if im a German protecting dutch skies during operation market garden, and instead ill think as if im a spitfire pilot and germans are dropping into my country. Will i shoot them?

Definately, every time. Who knows what they will do when they land! Kill my fellow englishmen/women, i wouldn't al;low it and couldnt think of it. Id kill as many as i could with what ammo i had. Hell, if i ran out of ammo i would ditch my plane and stab them as they landed. I guess im a sick man.

In this game, i tend not to take it so seriously. If i am offline, i will sometimes shoot th bailing enemy, it depends on how angry it made me during the fight, or if i can be bothered to restart for new targets http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Online, i do not shoot chutes, they are real people and are there to have fun, not have their time ruined by some trigger happy moron. If someone shot mu chute online i would be angry. Luckily no one ever has, i think that says alot about the online community.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-23-2005, 02:08 PM
danjama, you mean you missed the pic of the Swedish army girlie para on page 2, or was it 3?

MB_Avro_UK
11-23-2005, 02:36 PM
Just a thought...and I may be way off mark here..

Did all aircrew carry a firearm?

Would this make them a combatant?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

BaldieJr
11-23-2005, 02:44 PM
i just wish the in-game dudes would flail thier arms/legs when you pop their canopies. realism in this game is weak http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Troll2k
11-23-2005, 03:49 PM
The Me 323 can drop paratroopers.It looks like a line of bread crumbs leading you home.However I am not sure if they shoot at oncoming planes.I think the only threat they pose is getting their chute tangled in your plane and causing it to spin in.

But they do cause a large fps drop and probably why you do not see them much.

danjama
11-23-2005, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
danjama, you mean you missed the pic of the Swedish army girlie para on page 2, or was it 3?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

U better be serious, im going back there now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

*edit*

So, u bastard where do u live? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Chuck_Older
11-23-2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by LameDuck.:
Paratrooper in the house, Y'all! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Which of you knotheads came up with this bone-headed thread in the first place?

You're walking a patrol at night, on your base. We are at war. You see an enemy paratrooper making a combat jump into your base.

Do you shoot him before he hits the ground? Your weapon is loaded and trained on your target. You are certain he is the enemy and that he is making a hostile act during war. You know his job well, it is the same as your own

What is your training telling you to do? Do you shoot him in his harness or not?

Daiichidoku
11-23-2005, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Anyone live near either Aldershot or Fort Bragg want to pop down to the local pub/bar, locate a group of healthy looking young men with extreme hair-cuts, and ask them this question?


ask for names first, make sure theyre not bull ****s

you'd be better off with a bar full of half drunk, angry servicemen after you

polak5
11-23-2005, 04:28 PM
I would like for it to be able to shoot men inside the transport planes.
For example: If i blast a c47 with cannons shoulnt i hit some of the paratroppers inside... is that modeled?

arcadeace
11-23-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
Anyone live near either Aldershot or Fort Bragg want to pop down to the local pub/bar, locate a group of healthy looking young men with extreme hair-cuts, and ask them this question?


ask for names first, make sure theyre not bull ****s

you'd be better off with a bar full of half drunk, angry servicemen after you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe its me but I think his post has been pretty well misunderstood. And the way I read it, I completely agree.

rnzoli
11-23-2005, 04:36 PM
Question to the smart gentlemen: if you shoot a plane with paratroopers inside, the paratroopers and the crew also have to leave the plane in distress, could I shoot at the paratroopers or not?

And if I could, how could I tell the difference from the normal crew and the paratroopers? Stop by and ask?

This is crazy. The safest thing for you is to shoot at everything that moves.

danjama
11-23-2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
Question to the smart gentlemen: if you shoot a plane with paratroopers inside, the paratroopers and the crew also have to leave the plane in distress, could I shoot at the paratroopers or not?

And if I could, how could I tell the difference from the normal crew and the paratroopers? Stop by and ask?

This is crazy. The safest thing for you is to shoot at everything that moves.

Why is it important/significant that u have shot the paratroopers? This is a air combat game, shootin the plane/pilot is necessary, those paratroopers are none of our business. As soon as they hit the ground the call of duty/MOH/insert FPS game here players take over. We deal in air combat.

LameDuck.
11-23-2005, 05:39 PM
Ohhh. Another Pirsch thread. I should have known.

Look fellas, there's real life,
and then there's this game.

In real life, all you're going to do is piss off the paras. Seriously.

Shooting paras in this game? You need (1) psychiatric help, and (2) turn on CNN and catch up with world affairs. Seriously.

Shooting paras. Pbbfftttt.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone, everywhere.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by LameDuck.:
Paratrooper in the house, Y'all! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Which of you knotheads came up with this bone-headed thread in the first place?

Um, some dude named "Low-Flyer". Even his name says he hates paratroopers.

Gotta go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-23-2005, 08:36 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tater-SW-
11-23-2005, 08:48 PM
Shoot 'em. One, there is no ethical prohibition at all from shooting paratroops. They are combatants at that point.

The ethical prohibition from shooting chutes of bailed out aircrews is based upon extending the rules that pertain to sailors. Once their ship is abandoned, they are not considered combatants since their means of fighting is gone. The same theoretically applies to aircrews.

In the PTO it was SOP to shoot chutes (and lifeboats) on both sides afetr it was clear that this was the japanese policy. Barring any kind of reciprocity, the gloves were off. I don't have a problem with THAT, either, though I would personally prefer it if the japanese had respected that rule, and we wouldn't have reciprocated that bad behavior.

tater

BaylorMax
11-23-2005, 09:41 PM
Under the Law of War, pilots parachuting from a damaged aircraft should not be shot.

Parachute infantry are fiar game and can be shot.

The rationale is that pilots escaping from a plane are out of action. Airborn infantry are in combat and are coming to kill you!

This is how I learned it at a law of war course at the U. S. Army Judge Advocate School when I was a JAG.

So, shoot the infantry but spare the poor pilot.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 09:55 PM
Could the argument hold that a pilot will be back with a new plane and full load of ammo?

If not, then shouldn't the pilot surrender if he's forced to bail or crashland?

Fritz

LameDuck.
11-23-2005, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Um, some dude named "Low-Flyer". Even his name says he hates paratroopers.

Gotta go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz
ROTFLMAO! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Doug_Thompson
11-23-2005, 11:24 PM
All ethics aside, save your bullets for another aircraft that can shoot back if it's a pilot who's bailed out.

As for paratroops, there is no ethical distinction worth mentioning between strafing infantry in the air, strafing infantry on the ground, or shooting down a plane full of infantry.

Daiichidoku
11-24-2005, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LameDuck.:
Paratrooper in the house, Y'all! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Which of you knotheads came up with this bone-headed thread in the first place?

Um, some dude named "Low-Flyer". Even his name says he hates paratroopers.

Gotta go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

rnzoli
11-24-2005, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Question to the smart gentlemen: if you shoot a plane with paratroopers inside, the paratroopers and the crew also have to leave the plane in distress, could I shoot at the paratroopers or not?

And if I could, how could I tell the difference from the normal crew and the paratroopers? Stop by and ask?

This is crazy. The safest thing for you is to shoot at everything that moves.

Why is it important/significant that u have shot the paratroopers? This is a air combat game, shootin the plane/pilot is necessary, those paratroopers are none of our business. As soon as they hit the ground the call of duty/MOH/insert FPS game here players take over. We deal in air combat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, at least I know now, who considers himself a smart gentleman http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I talked about RL.

But your logic is flawed in game as well. Just remember, that coop missions have an objective to attack a recon or supply aircraft, or destroy ground targets. Making sure that paratroopers don't reach their destination on the ground can be a valid objective too. It's all part of the objectives of the aerial warfare.

polak5
11-24-2005, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LameDuck.:
Paratrooper in the house, Y'all! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Which of you knotheads came up with this bone-headed thread in the first place?

Um, some dude named "Low-Flyer". Even his name says he hates paratroopers.

Gotta go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-24-2005, 05:36 AM
Well....the food in this hospital isn't that bad, considering I can only eat through a straw at the moment. The doctor says he can probably remove that traffic cone from my butt in a couple of days, and the plastic surgeon says that 'Property of U.S. Airborne' tattoo shouldn't show when he's finished. Cheers, Fritz. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-24-2005, 08:09 AM
Cheers mate, if we ever meet, I'll buy the first round. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

LameDuck.
11-24-2005, 09:01 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif