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freakvollder
03-13-2010, 01:47 AM
Hi ALL
I like to start my questions here because I think that's a nice place to do it. I find this post very nice and interesting.



rudder and elevator trim settings

I've started to fly the P-51D more on WC and for testing also offline. During the test most of the interest was the rudder trim setting. What I've noticed is that the standard rudder trim setting is a very good setting for a big speed range from 500 to 700km/h IAS. Only little rudder input is needed to stay centered. When speed goes up to max speed one must trim few steps to stay centered. centering with the rudder, I've set it on 100% one must take care to not over correct it, that why trim correction per tabs is better at very high speed (extension dive etc.).

at first here is a picture of the standard trim setting when you start to fly the 51D in a mission;
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8431/p51trimstandard.jpg
This trim setting is very good at medium to high speed in general. the R is in a right angle to the plane flight axis so it is good to remember this position if you've changed it during the flight (climb etc.)!



This is the trim setting from rudder and elevator you can use in the climb-out from base to altitude when speed is around 300km/h IAS;
http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/2063/p51trimclimb.jpg
It's also a nice to remembering position so you can set this trim setting before the takeoff.

the P51 shows also a nice tendency to fly very centered if you fly it in a smooth looping as you do it in BnZ in general. That's very nice and safe energy.
What you think about that and what are you expierinece in regard to trimming the P51 correctly?



engine management - the Merlin

The Merlin is IMHO one of the most interesting engines ever designed.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/5829/merlineengine500.jpg

What are the best way to control the engine in the game? I personally don't like to run the engine constantly at 100%RPM. In many cases it is not necessary only in climbing but out-climbing is not a option so eventually you never need 100%RPM very much. What do you think?

A method I've read earlier posted by VA_Kling on UBI is, that in a high speed dive the engine don't overheat at full power if you reduce the RPM to around 60%. Even with closed Radiator the engine will not overheat for a long time. That's fine engine management! Whats your opinion?
Other ideas?



Gunnery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

How do you hit something?? It's very frustrating for me trying to make a good gun-pass that is effective to destroy a target. And I don't understand the K14 Gun-sight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What fore example is the best way to shoot down a plane (fighter) in the 51D? What convergence is the best and how I can use the K14 most successfully? What's you experience here? How did you manage kills in the 51D?



Salute ALL
see you in the skies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ba5tard5word
03-13-2010, 04:02 AM
I don't really fly Mustangs much but I am trying to get more practice with the late-war US planes lately. I just treat it like I treat any other plane, its engine management is pretty similar to other planes in terms of the radiator. For trim on all planes, I don't really mess with anything but elevator trim unless the plane is really bugging me by constantly veering to one side or the other. For elevator trim for any plane after takeoff, I will usually tap it down with the key 10 times to keep my nose from rising. This works for most planes and if I need to reduce the trim more to keep my nose from rising I will--most planes seem to work with 10 taps, but some don't, the Ki-84 need something like 30 taps or so to keep the nose level when flying fast.

As for gunnery, I treat the Mustang like any other plane with .50 cals--I try and get in as close as possible before firing, and try to get all my shots on target. Convergence of 200 to 250 should be good and you should make all shots at less than 250 meters but preferably around 200 meters or closer.

Erkki_M
03-13-2010, 05:05 AM
P51 has tricks of its own.

Outside hard maneuvering it retains energy like no other. Keeping the ball centered helps a lot; trimming is not that vital, as in IL2 trimming = moving control surfaces(while blacking out too). Try moving the throttle beyond 100% and back at different altitudes, and see how the Manifold Pressure increases: unless in emergency, theres no use to throttle above 100% at altitudes of 3800-5800m or about 13,000-19,000ft: you just gain heat. Keeping radiator closed or only 20 to 40% open while cruising and even in fight helps you, only open it to cool down after a fight or in situations you dont need every bit of speed you can gain; theres not much difference in cooling between 40% and 100% open at higher speeds especially.

Once you dive beyond 600kmph IAS you might want to reduce the engine RPM(propellor pitch) too, and bring it back up once you slow down. 90% RPM in level flight will help you stay cooled while you lose almost no speed(acceleration more so).

P51D is the fastest, has best cockpit visibility and best armament, but turns and climbs the worst. B/C climb and especially turn better, but lose in (top) speed, cockpit visibilty and armament. Consider Mustang III as a hyperboosted C that completely outperforms C/B and D, losing only in cockpit visibility and guns. It is the best piston engine fighter of the whole game, not counting Heinkel Lerche.

I use 120-150 converge in P51s depending on which model I fly and what kind of situations I think I might face. It has 105mils gunsight, meaning that when an FW190 is only 105m away it's wingspan is is the size of your sight's diamater... It looks like it was far, but its actually pretty damn close! Dont hesitate to open fire a bit further than you'd do in other aircraft, despite your close convergence, you have plenty of ammo and the M2s' ballistics are excellent. Just one hit might kill a 109's pilot and stop his engine... FW190 is tougher to down, but in nearly all times you hit him with a burst, even if he doesnt go down, he will lose so much performance that hes almost no threat anymore.

X32Wright
03-13-2010, 04:26 PM
READ this from somebody who actually flew one:

http://deltachevron.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=85

thefruitbat
03-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
READ this from somebody who actually flew one:

http://deltachevron.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=85

nice link, very interesting, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Romanator21
03-13-2010, 05:46 PM
To activate the K14 you must use the bomb sight automation key. Use the bomb sight adjust keys to set distance and aircraft type. If you're shooting at a Bf-109 or similarly sized plane, set the wingspan to "Bf-109". You will see the six points on the sight become larger or smaller depending on the plane size. You can also adjust distance, and the sight will change size.

Simply put the sight on the target, and make sure the wingtip matches the edges of the sight.

I typically don't bother with adjusting the distance. At default it is close to my convergence of 200. Since I want to hit at convergence only, I wait to get close enough that the target fills the sight, then fire. It works wonders really.

The curious snap stall of the P-51 is actually quite useful in emergencies if you can mange it well. Don't allow the stall to become too deep, but it will typically allow you to slow you down and change direction very quickly, enough for the enemy to overshoot in most instances. Otherwise, be gentle and always pay attention to what the plane is doing.

TS_Sancho
03-13-2010, 05:52 PM
I fly the P51 on occasion and agree with most of what has been written except for the lack of emphasis on trim. From my experience the mustang responds very well to properly managed trim inputs on all 3 axis and proper trim for your condition of flight is critical to getting maximum turn and speed performance as well as making your gunnery a lot easier.

Regarding engine management VA_Kling and Miss Strega both offer great advice. A recommendation I have would be to start flying by your cockpit instrumentation. Using the boost gauge and tachometer to set your throttle and prop pitch is the key to knowing the difference between getting the most out of the engine or needlessly abusing it.

Close the radiator, set your throttle to draw 58" of mercury, set your prop pitch to show 2700 rpm's and you can fly all day long without overheating. ( The P51 radiator its one of the shortcomings of the game, the radiator causes a lot of drag and the meredith effect isn't modeled)

Like most I am a poor shot and strive for close in from the 5 or 7 of the enemy plane.With the N9 fixed gunsight I have good success with a convergence setting of 100 meters, with the K14 gyrosight I use 150 meters.

M_Gunz
03-13-2010, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by freakvollder:
Gunnery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

How do you hit something??

Learn to judge distances in how long it will take your shots to get there. You can spend real time just doing that.
Then you see a target approaching a point ahead that your guns just happen to point, when it's going to take him
that fraction of a second to reach the intersection that your shots will and maybe a tiny bit ahead, you fire and
see how well you guessed.

Are you keeping the ball centered? P-51 has one at the base of the gunsight visible in all views. You -can- slew
the nose around to bring the sights on a target but the shots leave with a sideways vector component. Just lay
a line of fire across where he is going and get the timing right, with practice you can shoot from wide view and hit.

AndyJWest
03-13-2010, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
To activate the K14 you must use the bomb sight automation key. Use the bomb sight adjust keys to set distance and aircraft type. If you're shooting at a Bf-109 or similarly sized plane, set the wingspan to "Bf-109". You will see the six points on the sight become larger or smaller depending on the plane size. You can also adjust distance, and the sight will change size.

Simply put the sight on the target, and make sure the wingtip matches the edges of the sight.

I typically don't bother with adjusting the distance. At default it is close to my convergence of 200. Since I want to hit at convergence only, I wait to get close enough that the target fills the sight, then fire. It works wonders really.


I've never been able to get the hang of the K14 sight, and tend to use it in 'dumb' mode as an ordinary reflector. I suspect that less-experienced P51 pilots will be more successful if they do the same, especially if they have got a bit of deflection-shooting experience in other fighters. This takes practice too, but is a much more useful general skill - I even used it in Silent Hunter 3 the other day, running the 20mm flak-gun training mission and knocking out Swordfishes and Hurricanes as they buzzed overhead. Not that you really need a lot of deflection to hit a Swordfish...

Romanator21
03-13-2010, 08:19 PM
But the K14 calculates deflection for you. It wasn't called the ace maker for nothing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AndyJWest
03-13-2010, 09:54 PM
the K14 calculates deflection for you
Yup, I'm sure it does. provided you have set the correct parameters, and fly in the appropriate way (I think it is only theoretically accurate if you have the same degree of bank as your target). If I could fly that accurately, I wouldn't need the sight. Maybe if I only flew the P-51 I'd get the hang of it eventually, but for a jobbing pilot like me who will fly anything with wings, and dogfight with almost anything with forward-firing guns, good old deflection shooting is simpler. I found it darned hard not leading the target when I tried the K14. Possibly the problem isn't with the sophisticated sight, buy with the unsophisticated brain...

X32Wright
03-14-2010, 04:26 AM
USAAF recommendation for 50 cals is 300 yards which is 274 meters so when I fly a plane with .50 caliber guns I use 280 convergence. I change my convergence depending on the plane and guns mounted on it.

julian265
03-14-2010, 05:10 AM
I see the trim myth has popped up again... Whether you hold your desired attitude with trim or control inputs makes no difference to speed or acceleration.

Speed tests in the P-51D (they all result in the same speed, regardless of what elevator trim is set to):
http://www.jpfiles.com/misc/trim_test_down.ntrk
http://www.jpfiles.com/misc/trim_test_mid.ntrk
http://www.jpfiles.com/misc/tr...t_stick_neutral.ntrk (http://www.jpfiles.com/misc/trim_test_stick_neutral.ntrk)
http://www.jpfiles.com/misc/trim_test_up.ntrk

Just keep the slip ball centred and you'll be right (trim or pedals).
110%/100% throttle/pitch for full acceleration, level speed and climb.
You can bring throttle and pitch back when you have attained your desired altitude and speed, which sacrifices a only small amount of speed due to physics (ie, the same as for all other planes).

IL2's engine heat output modelling is pretty flawed, so be wary of following real life engine operating procedures. For example, peak fuel efficiency and desirable temperatures were often attained by climbing to a cruise altitude, reducing RPM and opening the throttle fully (which yields fairly low manifold pressures, depending on the chosen RPM). If you do this in IL2 you often overheat - possibly because IL2 is calculating engine heat output from throttle, rather than RPM and manifold pressure.

freakvollder
03-14-2010, 10:46 AM
thank you all for answering my questions! Actually I work with 140m Convergence on the P51D I fire when the plane is in the circle. I need more experience in gunnery in the 51. The K14 is useful only in small deflection shoots on non maneuvering target I think. It can be useful in a classic bounce etc.

I fly the 51 with the X52 Saitek Stick and Throttle combo and I've set all axis on 100%. I hold the stick above the trigger with my hand and can make very small corrections in this way. Elevator trim is set on the big rotary wheel on the throttle. I can fly very good in this way but it takes much attention to counteract every move the plane makes for example in lever flight. I think very smooth motion are thy key to fly the 51 fast.

If find that the P51 is a very fascinating AI. Flying against Dora's on a full switch server is always a challenge and good tactics are needed. I like it to dice away from everything at high speed. In the dive it is one of the fastest planes if not the fastest but gaining altitude after the dive is harder then in other planes. I try to climb at high speeds not below 400km/h IAS (250mph IAS) climbing in this way makes bouncing no as easy. I dive always in the direction of my home-base.

The combination of this airframe and the Merlin is wonderful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Salute

TheGrunch
03-14-2010, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
as in IL2 trimming = moving control surfaces
Isn't that what trimming does? The trim tab moves and the drag it creates deflects the control surface itself. The only way that Il-2 is inaccurate in that regard is that trimming is visible on the ground with the engine off.

TS_Sancho
03-14-2010, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by julian265:
I see the trim myth has popped up again....


Isnt that a rather silly comment when you follow your statement with this....


Just keep the slip ball centred and you'll be right (trim or pedals).


Last I checked yaw counted towards one of the 3 trim axis? Advising someone to ignore the elevator trim so they are fighting the joystick trying to hold the nose to the desired AOA? Why would anyone want to do that when you can click the trim key a couple of times and let the aircraft fly straight and level while you go make a sandwich.

Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster? Which is going to be the more stable gun platform?


Flying at 110% throttle is futile as well, when the boost gauge stops climbing your not getting any more power only making unnecessary heat and wasting fuel.



Have you bothered to read Mrs. Strega's comments from the link X32Wright provided above?Among other things she writes...






If you find yourself running WEP with prop RPM over 2800 and not taking off or in a weeds turn fight, you are wasting power and fuel.
You will discover that 2700RPM is the sweet spot for the prop. To get this, you may need to have a 75% throttle at 18k, but 90 on the deck



http://deltachevron.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=85



Here is VA_Klings disertation on flying the mustang in game....



http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/5641027835/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5641027835/p/1)



Kling is one of the best P51 pilots in this game, among other advice he stresses this....




Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

TRIM!! I cannot say this enough, a well trimmed P51 is very very fast and very very stable!! When speed increase, the ball will go left and the ball is pointing towards the rudder that must be pressed. So ball left - more left rudder trim! Keep the ball centered!

Elevator trim, VERY VERY important for all AC in game! make sure the she is trimmed for te speed you fly at, simple let go of the controls as see what she does on the vertical speed indicator! You can lose 20-50 km/h or more if she is untrimmed and constantly have to push the nose down/up with your stick!



Hope this helps straighten out that trim myth for you...........

M_Gunz
03-14-2010, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:

==-- a whole load of excellent advice directly useful to IL2 players --==



+points on that one, be sure!

julian265
03-15-2010, 05:19 AM
I probably shouldn't have started by using the term 'myth' - as it's certainly not a neutral term. I apologise. However I have heard the 'trim thing' from a number of sources, most of whom thought that trimming for zero stick forces would reduce drag, even if they could hold the plane perfectly steady without it (like for my spring-less setup)


Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Last I checked yaw counted towards one of the 3 trim axis? Advising someone to ignore the elevator trim so they are fighting the joystick trying to hold the nose to the desired AOA? Why would anyone want to do that when you can click the trim key a couple of times and let the aircraft fly straight and level while you go make a sandwich. Indeed, yaw is one of the 3 axes, but whether you use trim or pedals to hold the ball centred doesn't make a difference, which is the point I was trying to make.


Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster? Which is going to be the more stable gun platform? If that was your original point, then I agree. However I usually read people who say trim is important for maximum speed, as meaning that it magically reduces drag. I don't have return springs on any of my axes, so I barely use trim at all, and suffer no reduction in maximum speed.


Flying at 110% throttle is futile as well, when the boost gauge stops climbing your not getting any more power only making unnecessary heat and wasting fuel. You're right that after FTH you won't get any more power - but when this is true, you can't be using any more fuel than normal, and also you can't be producing extra heat. At worst, you simply get no extra power, but at *most altitudes* in a late war fighter, you will. I haven't done any tests on using "boost" above FTH and its impact on heat output - however if IL2 says opening the throttle increases the engine's heat output, when manifold pressure does not increase, then IMO IL2 is wrong. You can't have the same manifold pressure, same mixture, same RPM, same spark timing, and magically produce extra heat, but no extra power.


Have you bothered to read Mrs. Strega's comments from the link X32Wright provided above? I have previously, and agreed with most of her article in regard to cruising, and being nice to a real engine.


Here is VA_Klings disertation on flying the mustang in game....

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/5641027835/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5641027835/p/1)

Kling is one of the best P51 pilots in this game, among other advice he stresses this....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:

TRIM!! I cannot say this enough, a well trimmed P51 is very very fast and very very stable!! When speed increase, the ball will go left and the ball is pointing towards the rudder that must be pressed. So ball left - more left rudder trim! Keep the ball centered!

Elevator trim, VERY VERY important for all AC in game! make sure the she is trimmed for te speed you fly at, simple let go of the controls as see what she does on the vertical speed indicator! You can lose 20-50 km/h or more if she is untrimmed and constantly have to push the nose down/up with your stick!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Once again, if you're talking about pilot incompetence or lack of smoothness, slipping, bobbing or whatever else, then I agree with you. But if you are saying, as I interpret Kling's post to mean, that trimming for zero input forces reduces drag, then I disagree and my tracks above prove it.

Have you watched them? Full downward trim, neutral trim, full upward trim, and trim for neutral stick force all resulted in identical maximum speed - exactly what should happen in reality. This is all I was trying to say.

Also, if you want to try to catch up to, or run away from enemy planes at 2800 rpm and 58" of MP, then good luck to you! If you'd like to further this point, I'll do a few tests comparing these settings with 110/100% at 0, 3000, 6000, and 9000m and there will be no doubt, either way. However I think you've misinterpreted my post, and Miss Strega's. I certainly don't recommend cruising at 110% throttle, or 100% pitch, and she's certainly not recommending emergency acceleration or climbing be done at 2800 rpm and 58".

Kettenhunde
03-15-2010, 10:25 AM
Once again, if you're talking about pilot incompetence or lack of smoothness, slipping, bobbing or whatever else, then I agree with you.


What pilot incompetence? I think that is a very unfair label and an uninformed opinion.

I don't think you have ever had the pleasure of flying a actual aircraft with a broken trim. You would not be so quick to call it "incompetence".

Trim drag is very real but is dependent upon weight and balance. For subsonic designs, it is pretty much inconsequential.

If it is properly trimmed, the aircraft will attain speeds it will not be able to attain outside of a trimmed condition of flight.

That is a fact for real aircraft not games.

See:


Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

The one in trim.....


For example, peak fuel efficiency and desirable temperatures were often attained by climbing to a cruise altitude, reducing RPM and opening the throttle fully (which yields fairly low manifold pressures, depending on the chosen RPM).

Where are you getting your information? This is not how airplanes are flown. You never adjust rpm first and then manifold pressure on a CSP when reducing power nor do you fly at reduced rpm and full throttle. You will damage the engine.

In some situations and in a very small bands where the engine cannot produce a higher manifold pressure than the one required for the specific cruise setting, you would see this. This is why you see gearing and stages for superchargers.

To characterize it as "normal" and "how real airplanes are flown" is wrong outside of those narrow constraints.

Normally you reduce the manifold pressure and then set the rpm to the desired cruise rpm setting. Adjust the mixture and fine tune your manifold pressure followed by rpm. You change gears at the prescribed altitude or when the engine cannot develop the manifold pressure required for the condition of flight based on the specific instructions found in the POH for that installation.

julian265
03-15-2010, 05:11 PM
Trim drag is very real but is dependent upon weight and balance. For subsonic designs, it is pretty much inconsequential.
So trim drag is not relevant to this sim. Thank you.

My point:

IL2's engine heat output modelling is pretty flawed, so be wary of following real life engine operating procedures. For example, peak fuel efficiency and desirable temperatures were often attained by climbing to a cruise altitude, reducing RPM and opening the throttle fully (which yields fairly low manifold pressures, depending on the chosen RPM). If you do this in IL2 you often overheat - possibly because IL2 is calculating engine heat output from throttle, rather than RPM and manifold pressure.


Where are you getting your information? This is not how airplanes are flown. You never adjust rpm first and then manifold pressure on a CSP when reducing power nor do you fly at reduced rpm and full throttle. You will damage the engine. You're right. I didn't consider it important to go through all the steps, in order, of attaining cruise settings as it was beside my point.

Kettenhunde
03-15-2010, 05:26 PM
For example, peak fuel efficiency and desirable temperatures were often attained by climbing to a cruise altitude, reducing RPM and opening the throttle fully (which yields fairly low manifold pressures, depending on the chosen RPM).

You understand your statement above is not true for real aircraft?

I understand your statement about your games overheating and have no comment on it.

M_Gunz
03-15-2010, 05:59 PM
Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

Two planes flying side by side: which one is faster? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TS_Sancho
03-15-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

Two planes flying side by side: which one is faster? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the laymens example but you get the point.

What is the appropriate verbiage?

julian265
03-16-2010, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
You understand your statement above is not true for real aircraft?

see:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Where are you getting your information? This is not how airplanes are flown. You never adjust rpm first and then manifold pressure on a CSP when reducing power nor do you fly at reduced rpm and full throttle. You will damage the engine.

You're right. I didn't consider it important to go through all the steps, in order, of attaining cruise settings as it was beside my point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, I wasn't paying attention to the order of reducing MP and RPM when typing. Which is ironic as I do follow the right order in the sim, and I am familiar with the effects of pre-ignition and detonation...

Ever so sorry.

Kettenhunde
03-16-2010, 10:53 AM
Ever so sorry.


No need to apologize. Just want to make sure things are clear as communication over a BBS is not always so clear.

You understand it is not the trim drag that causes the aircraft to be faster? Trim drag occurs when the aircraft is trimmed.

It is the fact the aircraft wants to go a different direction from what the pilot wishes it to go. PIO, Pilot induced oscillations, or the buzzword phugoid oscillations are the result and that creates drag and causes the aircraft to have to travel a farther distance in the air to reach the same point on the ground. It is not humanly possible to control them with the precision of just eliminating them by trimming the airplane.

http://www.centennialofflight....bility_II/TH27G1.htm (http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Stability_II/TH27G1.htm)

TS_Sancho
03-16-2010, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
PIO, Pilot induced oscillations, or the buzzword <span class="ev_code_RED">phugoid oscillations</span>.....

Ooooohhhh, new word.

Thanks!

julian265
03-17-2010, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
You understand it is not the trim drag that causes the aircraft to be faster?
Yes, that's what I've been saying.

BluesmanSF
03-17-2010, 03:00 AM
Thanks A LOT for those links Wright and Sancho, the link with the tests and real life experience from Miss Strega is.. I'm outta words here.. =D

All the time I've wondered what's the fuss about 'Stang being faster than Chuck Norris, but da** the plane has come alive for me! You guys gave a soul for the plane! If only were there a possibility to have as thorough notes and recommendations for the rest of the planes aswell.

Luckily, we're going to have even more complex CEM in SOW and there's sh**load of documents referring to 109's, Spit's and Hurris so that we're able to fly them as was originally designed, and how they were supposed to be treated. Extremely looking forward to that. =D

ah, I'm getting too excited and got a bit OT, hope you don't mind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

6S_Blues

M_Gunz
03-17-2010, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

Two planes flying side by side: which one is faster? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the laymens example but you get the point.

What is the appropriate verbiage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You painted the picture, maestro. Side by side seems self-explanatory to me.
Maybe you should have asked which one is running on higher power?

TS_Sancho
03-17-2010, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Two identical aircraft flying side by side in the game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

Two planes flying side by side: which one is faster? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for the laymens example but you get the point.

What is the appropriate verbiage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You painted the picture, maestro. Side by side seems self-explanatory to me.
Maybe you should have asked which one is running on higher power? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got ya, I need to use a narrower brush. Something like...


Two identical aircraft of equal gross weight sharing the same power settings and conditions of flight in game, one is trimmed for no slip and correct AOA, the other is bobbing up and down and skidding its nose left and right trying to hold the desired flight condition with primary control input only.... which is going to be faster?

Better?

M_Gunz
03-18-2010, 11:38 AM
As long as that's what you really mean then sure it's better!
I'm not a mind reader. Perhaps you are used to mind readers.

What the original looked like to me was a trick question on an IQ test. A good one too.
HOW could I resist replying to that? I ask you?

But don't get upset. You were avoiding a bunch of technical writing, right? How I read
that was not the way you wrote it is all. And the difference didn't corner well. Oh well!
If you see the need then you change it and if you don't then you say "learn to read!".

Verbal communication tends to be loaded with things unsaid and for that reason is very
prone to being misunderstood. Answered from the misunderstanding viewpoint and re-translated
back into the original view as a different wrong answer than was given is about normal when
two people argue different things at each other. It can go on like ping pong even while the
original question gets lost and forgotten. This happens often even in written media where you
can go back and look again at what was written. LOL there's plenty proof of that right on this
forum!

It's when two or more members actually get and stay on or near the same point/subject that it
gets really interesting for me, I'm not here for the crash and burns though they do have some
entertainment value.

TS_Sancho
03-18-2010, 12:49 PM
Thanks Gunz,for what its worth I completely agree. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

freakvollder
03-19-2010, 10:36 AM
Is the P51D better as the FW190D9 in high speed climbing? This chart from IL2Compare shows that at 400km/h in a shallow climb the 51 climbs better then D9. After a high speed escape that could be the way to climb back to alt in the P51.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5301/climbp5120navsfw190d9.jpg

S