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View Full Version : Anyone else notice these things about the AI?



DRB_Hookech0
11-22-2004, 12:00 PM
Now before we get into a pissing match over whos got what numbers and what they mean type of thing, I just wanted to see if others have seen what I have seen.

I have noticed that the AI (all AI in this post are flying 43-44 version of the A6M...a Zeke for this discussion) can do gravity defying move? Yes I know on Ace or Vet they get silly but I'm talking about adverage pilots. Time after time I see a Zeke, roll inverted, go nose down, then pull thru a vertical outside loop while preforming a outside barrel roll. I have dived into the water becaue I was watching it pull that manuouver and going "no way"....spalt into the water. If I had it on a track....I'd post it but really I see this move everytime I fly. It's like they are all competeing in the world air champoinships. Dont take this the wrong way, I'm all for the AI to be aggressive and defend themselves but this is a bit much. From what I have read, one of the favorite defensive tactics with Zeke drivers was the engaged plane does an immediate Split S, and his 2 wingmen pull level break turns away...when the attackers follow the plane in the split-s, the wingman reverse and come back and sandwich the attacker plane. I never see any sort of split-s manouvers, all I see is what looks to be a high speed yo-yo. Zeke pulls up hard, rolls inverted and barrel rolls and maybe a gets into a scissors or vertical scissors.

Also, I fly the F4u-1D. Yes I like the changes for the most part. I think it bleeds E too fast and is much harder to hold on the edge, but being as I have never actually flown a Corsair, how the hell do I know how they fly? But, I am startign to think/feel that the Zekes are much more able to stay with me in a screeming *** dive. You know...you tooling along and you start to see the light sabers of death...I mean the cannon fire from a Zeke go by you. You roll and dump the nose and go diving out of the fight...and you see in your mirror the **** Zeke is still there? I mean I'm doing 50+ down and got the coals pored on and come out of the dive at 320 KIAS and the Zeke about 60% of the time is still there shooting. Am I mising something here?

Hey all this might just be a figment of my imagination...Any one else seeign any of this stuff?

DRB_Hookech0
11-22-2004, 12:00 PM
Now before we get into a pissing match over whos got what numbers and what they mean type of thing, I just wanted to see if others have seen what I have seen.

I have noticed that the AI (all AI in this post are flying 43-44 version of the A6M...a Zeke for this discussion) can do gravity defying move? Yes I know on Ace or Vet they get silly but I'm talking about adverage pilots. Time after time I see a Zeke, roll inverted, go nose down, then pull thru a vertical outside loop while preforming a outside barrel roll. I have dived into the water becaue I was watching it pull that manuouver and going "no way"....spalt into the water. If I had it on a track....I'd post it but really I see this move everytime I fly. It's like they are all competeing in the world air champoinships. Dont take this the wrong way, I'm all for the AI to be aggressive and defend themselves but this is a bit much. From what I have read, one of the favorite defensive tactics with Zeke drivers was the engaged plane does an immediate Split S, and his 2 wingmen pull level break turns away...when the attackers follow the plane in the split-s, the wingman reverse and come back and sandwich the attacker plane. I never see any sort of split-s manouvers, all I see is what looks to be a high speed yo-yo. Zeke pulls up hard, rolls inverted and barrel rolls and maybe a gets into a scissors or vertical scissors.

Also, I fly the F4u-1D. Yes I like the changes for the most part. I think it bleeds E too fast and is much harder to hold on the edge, but being as I have never actually flown a Corsair, how the hell do I know how they fly? But, I am startign to think/feel that the Zekes are much more able to stay with me in a screeming *** dive. You know...you tooling along and you start to see the light sabers of death...I mean the cannon fire from a Zeke go by you. You roll and dump the nose and go diving out of the fight...and you see in your mirror the **** Zeke is still there? I mean I'm doing 50+ down and got the coals pored on and come out of the dive at 320 KIAS and the Zeke about 60% of the time is still there shooting. Am I mising something here?

Hey all this might just be a figment of my imagination...Any one else seeign any of this stuff?

robban75
11-22-2004, 12:14 PM
I have some tracks that shows the AI doing some crazy stuff. One of them is when a Yak-3 pulls a 20 G+ turn(I'm not kidding) and finishes of a Mustang with a single shot. I also have a sequence when an La-5FN goes from 600km/h to 200km/h in less than 3 seconds. IT's pretty crazy and it's one of the reasons I don't like flying against the AI. They might aswell be UFO:s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Luftcaca
11-22-2004, 05:02 PM
I so agree with you on that Robban

How many times have I seen a Yak following me in a 700 kmh/more dive and then pull up like crazy ignoring all the G's...

heh, thats what we got; an AI using the easy flight model. At first I think I remember Oleg saying that it wouldnt be easy to see it, but cmon you gotta be kidding me. Just hit the autopilot button when you are on a flat spin, I garantee you that the AI will be flying straight in 2 secs or less. Diving is just NOT to be considered when you fly agaisnt AI

oh and I cant take this anymore: Fw190A doing some low alt low speed maneuvers that would kill the human player... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

but heh why do we even beat that dead horse? these issues will stay until the Earth goes boom

dadada1
11-23-2004, 04:12 AM
I heard that the AI were all training to be cosmonaughts but when the space programme in Russia was stopped they were redundant. Maddox Games gave them jobs as test pilots for the programme developement, then they all got permanant positions as AI pilots in the game. So you see there is a perfectly logical and realistically modelled explaination for their resistance to extreme G.

Chuck_Older
11-23-2004, 10:24 AM
It must be repeated often, but the AI is allowed to cheat, by design.

If the AI had to use as complex and detailed a flight model as the aircraft you fly, what kind of computer do you think you'd need to play the game? If it takes one 2Ghz CPU with a 256MB AGP graphics card, a 128 MB sound card, and 1GB of RAM to fly just your aircraft in PF and show graphics smoothly, what type of PC is even in existence that could do that for 10 planes that were AI, plus your aircraft? I think the only manufaturer you could get that computer from is Cray.

Sig.Hirsch
11-23-2004, 11:15 AM
Hehe , that's so true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But it would be nice anyway if the simplified AI models could not ignore some basic laws of physics sometimes .
I'm sure there is a way for the future sims like BoB to improve the AI in this regard , even if it's still simplified

WalterMittyJT
11-23-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
Hehe , that's so true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But it would be nice anyway if the simplified AI models could not ignore some basic laws of physics sometimes .
I'm sure there is a way for the future sims like BoB to improve the AI in this regard , even if it's still simplified <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. I wish to add: Also take away their "radar-sight". I always feel cheated when traced in a cloud. The classical out-of-the-sun-attack is utterly useless regarding AI.

Cheers, WM

dadada1
11-24-2004, 02:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
It must be repeated often, but the AI is _allowed_ to cheat, by design.

If the AI had to use as complex and detailed a flight model as the aircraft you fly, what kind of computer do you think you'd need to play the game? If it takes one 2Ghz CPU with a 256MB AGP graphics card, a 128 MB sound card, and 1GB of RAM to fly just _your_ aircraft in PF and show graphics smoothly, what type of PC is even in existence that could do that for 10 planes that were AI, plus your aircraft? I think the only manufaturer you could get that computer from is Cray. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Granted that the AI FM has to be simpler but like the last two posters said, it should be possible to limit some of the AI's more excessive behaviour. EAW AI flew within the limits of their AC (yes a simpler programme). What about what I think of as a benchmark for AI, WW2 fighters. They flew their aircraft very hard and were difficult to beat, but within both the Aircraft performance envelope and the physical limits of whats humanly possible. Again WW2 fighters is a simpler programme than Il2 FB PF but surely to programme these limits is not unattainable, after all we are talking about a limit, not giving the AI additional superpowers.

sapre
11-24-2004, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WalterMittyJT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sig.Hirsch:
Hehe , that's so true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But it would be nice anyway if the simplified AI models could not ignore some basic laws of physics sometimes .
I'm sure there is a way for the future sims like BoB to improve the AI in this regard , even if it's still simplified <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. I wish to add: Also take away their "radar-sight". I always feel cheated when traced in a cloud. The classical out-of-the-sun-attack is utterly useless regarding AI.

Cheers, WM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be impossible at the moment for user being able to turn clouds on or off.

Petey78
11-26-2004, 06:41 AM
Is it just me but do AI have unlimited ammo? I've been chased by AI (particularly Zekes in impossible power dives) and jinked and swerved for what seems like months only to find that the little b**ta** is still there and still firing continuously, it's like he's never taken his finger off the button.... Granted it's not possible to stop them being like UFO's but at least limit their loadouts and please, stop them being able to see and shoot through clouds! As for AI on my side, come on guys, he's on fire and he's spiralling towards the sea, HE'S MY KILL, leave him to crash in peace and leave me to claim the kill! Mostly, my favourite missions are those where I leave most of my squadron on the carrier and only have the one wingman.

gorillasika
11-26-2004, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Petey78:
Is it just me but do AI have unlimited ammo? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Try quick mission builder. When near your 6, the AI will hold their trigger down and run out of ammo pretty fast. After that it's only turkey shoot (if they didn't hit you) when you chase the enemy fighter(s) as they try to return home.

Aaron_GT
11-26-2004, 04:29 PM
" What about what I think of as a benchmark for AI, WW2 fighters. They flew their aircraft very hard and were difficult to beat,"

In Janes WW2F they did some quite scripted things. With the 109s you could be sure they would extend, do a vertical maneouver, and then come back for another pass. You just had to hang in there and make sure you had enough energy such that you could get close enough to them with enough energy that you could just nose up and pop a few shots at them when they were slow in that vertical maneouver. And down they came. If that failed you could just drop down onto the deck and duck around a few hills and half the time the AI would just bury itself into it.

Janes WW2F is fun, but the AI is less good than what we have in IL2, I think.

BrotherJayne
07-25-2007, 03:53 PM
I think in this era of dual cores and 2 gigs of ram that it might be possible to have the ai run in a slightly better flight model then they do currently... at the moment, they are ridiculus

Aymar_Mauri
07-25-2007, 05:29 PM
And again, thread necromancy at it's best...

BrotherJayne
07-25-2007, 10:52 PM
Are you saying that this are somehow non-valid issues? Cuz they still hold true, and I'm sure I'm not the only solo player

stalkervision
07-26-2007, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrotherJayne:
Are you saying that this are somehow non-valid issues? Cuz they still hold true, and I'm sure I'm not the only solo player </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed I play single player also and would like these same issues addressed.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Il-2 appears to now be primarily a multi-player game and since this is now so the Ai will never be improved on IMO.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

stalkervision
07-26-2007, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
" What about what I think of as a benchmark for AI, WW2 fighters. They flew their aircraft very hard and were difficult to beat,"

In Janes WW2F they did some quite scripted things. With the 109s you could be sure they would extend, do a vertical maneouver, and then come back for another pass. You just had to hang in there and make sure you had enough energy such that you could get close enough to them with enough energy that you could just nose up and pop a few shots at them when they were slow in that vertical maneouver. And down they came. If that failed you could just drop down onto the deck and duck around a few hills and half the time the AI would just bury itself into it.

Janes WW2F is fun, but the AI is less good than what we have in IL2, I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

&gt; I flew a lot of Janes ww2 and the Ai was a hell of a lot more aggresive then Il-2 is now. It may have been "scripted" but they were good scripts.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I find little challange in the Il-2 Ai even on it's "ace settings" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

for example when I flew the me-262 agains't B-17's and P-51's escort fighters I could always count on the p-51 to give me a good hard time after I attacked the B-17's..

In Il-2 they don't seem to care one way or another what I do to the B-17's and only chase me when they feel like it.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BrotherJayne
07-26-2007, 04:39 PM
Yeah... the problem is, the AI gets performance boosts, but isn't actually that great at dog fighting. So basicly, a fight against the AI is just knowing what tricks it takes to get the attention of the AI

stalkervision
07-26-2007, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrotherJayne:
Yeah... the problem is, the AI gets performance boosts, but isn't actually that great at dog fighting. So basicly, a fight against the AI is just knowing what tricks it takes to get the attention of the AI </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just can't get a good fight out of them.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Hope to god SOW is different..!

Widowmaker214
07-27-2007, 12:43 AM
As much as many of these guys on here wont want to agree with.. the AI does not fly by the same human flight model. Sorry. No chance. (w
Just like last night..I watched hurricanes, make a tight 360 degree turn, then climb 6,000 feet and catch up to 109s running away.
Umm yeah.
The wicked negative G manuvers. (Watch them GAIN speed doing negative G manuvers!)
climbing 10,000 feet without burning off speed.
They can do some REALLY wild stuff.
And no overheat!

Also...
they love to crash into the ground as your wingmen when you try and land.

Or shoot through you while attacking the bandit you are on.

Or fly into you because they feel a need to try and fly 50 yards from you at all times.

Or crash into the ground as you try to land because they are following you and wont listen to the command to RTB.

While I LOVE IL2... love it love it love it..
As someone who prefers to actually fly combat missions and do coop, rather that fly in dog fight servers.....
the AI are pathetic compared to even games that ran in DOS
It really takes away from the experience as poor as the AI are.
Its the most glaring deficiency in the game. We can all debate about individual aircraft and if the aircraft is over or under modeled... but the AI..
please.
I can only HOPE..that the AI in BOB will be 1000% better.. because it NEEDS to be 1000% better.