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Vortex_uk
07-28-2004, 12:50 PM
i may be a little slow and seem really stupid to most of you,but with the new gunsites in the P-51 and in the YP-80 (i think),is the only diffence the size of the site,because i've seen pics of people using the K-14 and they have a little star shaped retical out the the main site and off some where around the canopy and cockpit.Is this automatic or is there a key to activate this? Because i've not seen this when i'm in a P-51 or YP-80.

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http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Vortex_uk/UBISigVortex.jpg


"We are not retreating, we are advancing in another direction. " ~ Gen. MacArthur

Vortex_uk
07-28-2004, 12:50 PM
i may be a little slow and seem really stupid to most of you,but with the new gunsites in the P-51 and in the YP-80 (i think),is the only diffence the size of the site,because i've seen pics of people using the K-14 and they have a little star shaped retical out the the main site and off some where around the canopy and cockpit.Is this automatic or is there a key to activate this? Because i've not seen this when i'm in a P-51 or YP-80.

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http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Vortex_uk/UBISigVortex.jpg


"We are not retreating, we are advancing in another direction. " ~ Gen. MacArthur

NegativeGee
07-28-2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vortex_uk:
i may be a little slow and seem really stupid to most of you,but with the new gunsites in the P-51 and in the YP-80 (i think),is the only diffence the size of the site,because i've seen pics of people using the K-14 and they have a little star shaped retical out the the main site and off some where around the canopy and cockpit.Is this automatic or is there a key to activate this? Because i've not seen this when i'm in a P-51 or YP-80.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

http://img63.photobucket.com/albums/v193/Vortex_uk/UBISigVortex.jpg


"We are not retreating, we are advancing in another direction. " ~ Gen. MacArthur<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is this explaination in the AEP 2.00 readme:

"Using the K-14 gunsight

Use the 'Toggle Sight Mode (Auto)' button to switch gunsight mode. Use the 'Adjust Sight Control to Right' and 'Adjust Sight Control to Left' buttons to select the target aircraft type. Use the 'Increase Sight Distance' and 'Decrease Sight Distance' buttons to adjust the sight circle for the target aircraft to fit in it. Track the target aircraft for at least 2 seconds to maintain correct lead."

All I would add is that if you end you attacking an aircraft type not built into the sight, check a third party source for the wingspan and use the closest match with the aircraft the sight is calibrated for.

Have fun!

P.S. I think we should have a sticky in here titled "operation of the K-14 gunsight mounted on the P-51 D-20NA and YP-80" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Chuck_Older
07-28-2004, 02:37 PM
I used to type up operation of the K-14 about once a week.

Let me see if I can find a link to an old thread with the explanation in it.

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

Chuck_Older
07-28-2004, 03:31 PM
OK, it's been too long, the thread can't be found.


Here we go http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

First off:

Become familiar with how a non-gyro, standard gunsight works. I will be using some examples that assume you have an idea of how to use the gunsight, and how to set your convergence. I may tocuh on those two topics to illustrate how it relates to the K-14 gyro gunsight, but I will not go into great detail on those subjects; typing all this up is mo0re than enough typing for me.

First, assign some keys to your K-14 functions. I beleive the defaults are un-mapped, and they are for the bombsight.

Now. Take a look at the K-14. You will see something immediately: a list of planes around the perimeter of the body of the sight. Don't worry about that, we'll discuss how to select a plane, why, and when, or even if you should use the gyro feature. For now, just be aware of the ability to select plane types.

While in flight, cycle through the modes of operation for the sight:
fixed
fixed+gyro
gyro only

You will note that in fixed+gyro and gyro, there is a pattern of small diamond shapes on the gunsight glass, and it moves as you manuever. This is called your pipper. This is the gyro feature, obviously.

Remember the list of plnes from before? Cycle through them. Note that the pipper gets bigger or smaller depending on what plane you select. Note how that the bigger the wingspan of the plane selected is, the larger the pipper is. This is key. Remember that: the pipper is intended to match the visual wingspread of your target.

Now try something new: increase or decrease range on the K-14 while in fixed+gyro or gyro only mode. Note how the pipper smoothly gets bigger or smaller, similar to the function in which you select target plane type.

This is all the pipper control you have: resizing the pipper.

How does this all work?

OK. Let's say you are roughly 150 meters away from a Bf 109, on his six o'clock (directly behind him as he flies away from you). You turn on your K-14 to fixed+gyro or gyro only. At this range (150m), if you select 'bf109' from the list of targets on the sight, the pipper will frame the wings of your target if the dot is centered on the fuselage. This tells you that you are at the range that the sight is preset to: about 150m, more or less. What does this do for you? Well, if you now place the dot in the center of the pipper on his right wingtip and pull the trigger, if he does not manuever, you will get strikes on his right wingtip. Maybe not a lot, but that is also a function of convergence, which is where the bullets from your guns cross in front of your aircraft. If you set the convergence to 150m ahead of time, obviously, in this example I have given you, you will do more damage because a lot more lead will have struck the target.

This brings us to "why change the range on the K-14?" Well, maybe you don't like 150m convergence. You prefer 100m, or 300m. Well, now you set your convergence-there are several ways to find your convergence, including shooting at an enemy without the K-14 in fixed+gyro or gyro only, pausing the game, and then using the 'enemy view' to see if you are getting hits at the point where the bullet streams cross- and you fly a mission. Let's say you are in the same situation as the example previosuly mentioned, and you find that 300m is a good convergence for you.

You are behind a Bf 109 on his six. You now remember more or less how big the enemy plane looked when you determined that 300m was a good point for your convergence. You flip on the K-14 to fixed+gyro mode. You determine that you are approximately 300m away, based on your experience while setting convergence, and now you resize the pipper to roughly the correct size to frame the enymy's wings, when that enemy is selcted on your gunsight selector. Sounds harder than it is. You are using standeard techniques to determine convergence, the same for any other aircraft without the K-14. But now, you can make the pipper the right size. Once you know that size for that distance and for just one enemy plane, you can start to make very good estimated judgements on other sizes for the pipper for other aircraft. Let's say you don't run into a Bf 109, but instead it's a FW 190. Well, flip on the K-14 to a gyro equipped mode. You know that the FW 190 is slightly larger than the Bf 109, and has a wider wingspread. All you do is set the range for the pipper as above, Now select "FW 190" on the selector, and your are very close to being properly ranged for that aircraft, and at your convergence.

It is important to remember a few things:

1) all you ever do is change pipper size.
2) try to set range first. Sounds hard, but it's actually easy. It does take a little effort though. You will simply be cahnging the sight to this size automatically after a while.
3) the gyro pipper needs a second or two to 'settle' this is why you also have a fixed mode. Fixed+gyro is a great compromise if you can deal with the two recticles
4) do not try to constantly reset the K-14's pipper in combat for a 'perfect' frame of your eney's wings whwnever range changes! This is extremely hard and is not how the sight works. Set the pipper to the right size for your convergence, and then fire at the convergence. If you want, you can try to get some lucky hits on aircraft that are far way by increasing the range, but remember: you are now out of your convergence range. The rule of thumb is: fire only at convergence range, and set the pipper size to convergence.

One more thing: How can you use the K-14 to fire at targets not on the selector list?

Simple. Select a similarly sized aircraft. For example, if I wanted to size the pipper, at my convergence, at a P-47, I would think about the P-47's size. First, I'd switch on a gyro mode on the K-14. Next, I size my pipper to range (another good trick is to set your range in fixed+gyro, because you can compare the wingspread of the target in the regular recticle with the pipper), and after I am confident that the pipper is the right size for my range, I would select "FW 190" on the list: that is approximately the right wingspan for the P-47.

One good thing to always bear in mind: the sight will never tell you waht the range is. You tell the sight what the range is first. But you don't need to know range. All you do is compare sizes. First you recognise what size the pipper will be at what you beleive to be your convergence range. Then, set the pipper to that size by changing range. Now select the target aircraft, if you have done your homework and know how to tell ropughly how far an enemy is from you, when you resize the pipper manually by changing range to the proper size (so that the pipper's outline will frame the wings of the target), when you then select the target type, the pipper will be properly sized.

Sounds confusing. Let's look at it the other way around.

You should be able to set the pipper to the correct size to match your convergence range without a target nearby. The, by selecting a target from the list, the pipper will be the correct size for that target. It's not magic, it's just a little time spent setting a convergence range that works for you, and then remembering how big the target was when you did that. Then you change the pipper size to match that.

For example, you are flying a P-51D with the K-14. You see a Bf 109 and are on his six, directly astern. Select fixed mode. You close in. At your convergence range, whatever that may be, you open fire. You see many hits, and he catches fire and crashes.

Now, what you do is recall where his wings were in the fixed sight when you clobbered him. Were the wings just a tocuh shy of tocuhing the edges of your sight? Were they past the edges of the sight so much that the fixed sight's edge was in the middle of the wing? Whatever, doesn't matter, just remember that. Then turn the K-14 to a gyro mode, and manually change the pipper by changing range, so that the pipper mimics the size of the target's wings when you clobbered him. Remember that one tip about setting the pipper first with range.

Notice how I call changing the range "manually" changing the pipper sometimes? Setting the pipper size by changing range can be thought of as manually changing the pipper, while the aircraft selection feature is an automatic function:

set the pipper size for your convergence. I suggest using a Bf109 as the aircraft to learn this on, simply because it's the default setting on the K-14 and it makes things easier.

Once you set that pipper size, selecting another aircraft automatically makes the pipper the right size for that target's wingspan at your convergence range.

Next: "How can I use the K-14 if the target is broadside to me?" Well, the K-14 isn't perfect. It can't calculate high deflection well. That's why you have other modes of operation other than just the pure gyro only feature. But- if the target is not perfectly in front of you it doesn't matter if the wings don't look their full size because of your depth perception. The sight uses wingspan as an easy reference, not as a need to properly function. If you know your range, set the pipper to it, and select the correct aircraft, you will know already if the target is at the proper range, that's all you need. In a medium to low deflection shot, the gyro feature, if trained on the target for a breif moment, should accurately calculate lead for you, and where the pipper dot is on the enemy is where bullets will land if he doesn't manuver.

Do not rely on the K-14 in gyro mode. Many pilots in real life didn't care for it and used the fixed mode only. There is no rule that says you must use it, but a couple say don't use it in some situations. The K-14 is a good tool that produces results when used properly. It cannot do everything and needs to be properly set up to function. These is a certain amount of hype regarding this gunsight, and if used in the correct circumstances, will live up to that, in my experience. But if you have a 90* deflection shot, turn it off and use the fixed mode. Most of the time, I use it in fixed or fixed+gyro.

The Golden Rule of the K-14 in gyro modes is this: match sizes- pipper to wingspan, and at your convergance range.


I'm glad that's over. I need a beer.

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

El Turo
07-28-2004, 03:38 PM
Hey Chuck, you mind if Mad Piglet puts this info up on his website at www.il2flying.com? (http://www.il2flying.com?) He's looking for more content and this would be a fantastic addition, I think.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Chuck_Older
07-28-2004, 03:44 PM
Sure. I think that's even the correct explanation- I had editted some things and it made me contradict myself a few times, but I think I fixed that.

I had a much better and simpler explanation before but I can't find it. I should have saved the post on my hard drive.

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-28-2004, 07:08 PM
a piece a chewing gum sticked to the windshield is more efficient than any Gyroscopic sight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This statement is also true in FB-

For guys that have practiced hundreds of hours of aerial gunnery in the sim, they dont need anymore any help than using a classical gunsight.

my 2 cents http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Maybe you can use gyro and classic all together.

------------------------------
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F16_Filur
07-28-2004, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Use the 'Increase Sight Distance' and 'Decrease Sight Distance' buttons to adjust the sight circle for the target aircraft to fit in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing the readme doesnt say though... you have to have choosen one of the gyromodes to be able to adjust the sight circle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

When you enter the cockpit you can only adjust the different planetypes.

Rab03
07-29-2004, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
a piece a chewing gum sticked to the windshield is more efficient than any Gyroscopic sight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This statement is also true in FB-

For guys that have practiced hundreds of hours of aerial gunnery in the sim, they dont need anymore any help than using a classical gunsight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed - I've found K-14 to complicated, and prefer fixed. With thousands of hours flying, I don't really need it.

Just a note: Chewing gum story originates from Korean war, when Sabre pilots frequently missed targets with their radar sights, till they were considerably improved late in the war.

Also, extra weight of the sight and other nice-to-have gadgets was cause of frustration because Sabres were very inferior in combat to MiG-15s. All sorts of equipment was chucked out with aim of plane getting lighter/more maneuvrable.

[This message was edited by Rab03 on Thu July 29 2004 at 06:55 AM.]

Mad_Piglet
07-29-2004, 09:52 PM
http://www.il2flying.com/images/stories/Banner_Images/il2flying_banner.jpg (http://www.il2flying.com)

Chuck,

El Turo mentioned your post to me and I read your answer, that you don't mind to have it posted on my site: www.il2flying.com (http://www.il2flying.com)

You can find it at: http://www.il2flying.com/content/section/7/36/

If you'd like to change anything or add more articles, you can either contact me at sitesupport@il2flying.com (you can email it online from my site here: http://www.il2flying.com/component/option,com_contact/Itemid,3/).

I have created a username and password for you and if you want you can login and change your text yourself, or post more content. Just let me know via e-mail. If you do not wish to have your material to be posted on my site, please let me know and i'll remove it.

I have also posted Fighting tactics by El Turo at the same place: http://www.il2flying.com/content/section/7/36/

Now if anyone has something useful to say I can post it under section "Knowledge Of Aces".

El Turo and Chuck Older - thank you for your material!