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XyZspineZyX
11-26-2005, 10:33 PM
Hi
Does any of you avid luftwaffe historians know when the 109G6 Late & the AS models commenced active service during WW2. I am looking for the actual month & year of entry into combat service
Thanks in advance

woofiedog
11-27-2005, 01:41 AM
Can't seem to find any exact dates for production.

The limits of the Bf 109 design appeared with the Bf 109G series, which began production in early 1942.

* The "Bf-109G" was direct follow-on to the Bf-109F. The "Gustav", as it came to be known, was fitted with the still more powerful DB-605-series engine, with was effectively a DB-601 with bored-out cylinders, higher compression, and 1,082 kW (1,450 HP) for takeoff. The new engine was heavier and generated higher torque, requiring airframe reinforcement and modifications. Some Gustav variants also featured a pressurized cockpit. Initial deliveries of the Gustav began in early 1942.

By this time, the Bf-109 was clearly past its prime, and the Focke-Wulf 190 would equip Germany's leading fighter squadrons. However, the Reich had lagged in introducing new fighters. There were never enough FW-190s to go around, while development of advanced jet fighters was delayed for technical and bureaucratic reasons until they would be, fortunately for the Allies, too few and too late to make a difference.

Uprating the Bf-109 helped plug the gap for a while, but at a price. While the Bf-109 was maneuverable, it had never been light on the controls, and as it became faster it also became more difficult to fly. Its handling on the ground, never good, only kept getting worse. The Gustav was a handful for experienced pilots and downright dangerous to inexperienced ones.

Ironically, while the Spitfire was upgraded in a similar fashion through the war, the basic Supermarine design proved more adaptable to increased horsepower, armor, firepower, and weight, and later model Spitfires like the Mark IX were more than a match for contemporary Bf-109s. A Luftwaffe pilot would land his Bf-109G at RAF Manston by mistake later in the war and allow comparison of the Messerschmitt against current Allied types, showing it to have few advantages and many disadvantages relative to the Spitfire Mark IX and XIV, as well as the P-51C Mustang. This Gustav was lost in an accident before it could be tested against a Tempest Mark V.

Despite the limitations of the type, as conditions became increasingly desperate, the Bf-109G would roll off the production line in tremendous numbers, with as many as 24,000 produced by Germany and her allies. Over 14,000 of these were built in 1944 alone.

* Work on 12 preproduction "Bf-109G-0s" began in the summer of 1941, with the last of this batch delivered in October. Due to problems with obtaining the new engines, the preproduction Gustavs were fitted with DB-601E engines. They had the same armament fit as the Bf-109F-4, with twin MG-17 7.9 millimeter guns in the cowling plus an MG 151/20 20 millimeter Motorkanone, and had a pressurized cockpit.

The initial production "Bf-109G-1" began to arrive at Luftwaffe units in March 1942. It was identical to the Bf-109G-0, except that it was fitted with the proper DB-605A-1 or DB-605B-1 engine, with two new small cooling intakes in tandem on each side of the nose, just behind the propeller. The four intakes were added because the DB-605 engine tended to overheat or even catch fire while the aircraft was idling on the runway on hot days. GM-1 nitrous oxide boost was standard.

The Bf-109G-1 was built in a number of modifications, one of the most significant being the "Bf-109G-1/Trop" tropicalized fighter. This modification replaced the MG-17 7.9 millimeter guns in the cowling with MG-131 13 millimeter guns with 300 RPG for additional punch, in case the nose-mounted MG-151/20 jammed.

To accommodate the MG-131s, a pair of bulged fairings were fitted to the cowling just ahead of the cockpit, giving the Bf-109G-1/Trop and similar variants the nickname "Beule (bump)". The fairings did nothing to improve the Bf-109's already poor field of vision while on the ground.

* The topic of Gustav modifications is extremely complicated. Messerschmitt had moved to a process of modification through factory conversion kits, or "Umrust-Bausatz", designated by "U" modification codes; and field upgrade kits, or "Rustsaetze", designated by "R" modification codes. These kits had been implemented in late Frederick production, but reached full development with the Bf-109G.

There were many of these kits; sources tend to be contradictory in descriptions of the kits; and it appears that the same modification code might have different meanings when applied to different subvariants. To complicate matters, a single Gustav might have several kits, or be adapted to different kits over time, but its designation might only reflect one of them. Finally, towards the end of Gustav production many of these modification kits were built in as standard. The issue is very confusing, is unlikely to ever be sorted out with any certainty, and is little more than a headache for anyone who doesn't consider it their life's work.

In general outline, kits included Jabo conversions (codes variously given as "R1" and "R2"); long-range fighters, with a centerline rack for a drop tank ("R3"); reconnaissance fighters ("R2", again, and "R4"); and "bomber destroyers". The bomber destroyer fits were particularly interesting and significant, as they were used in numbers to help defend the Reich against Allied bombers.

The first bomber destroyer modification ("R6") involved fit of an MG-151/20 cannon in a gondola under each wing, giving the Bf-109G a total of five guns. This fit affected the aircraft's handling for the worse, increasing its weight, reducing its roll rate, and causing roll instability. Such modifications were at a disadvantage in tangling with Allied fighters. The bomber destroyer modification was referred by pilots as the "Kanonboote (Gunboat)".

This armament fit led to kits that provided an MK-108 30 millimeter cannon under each wing instead of the MG-151/20 cannon ("R5"), or fit of launch tubes for 21 centimeter (8.27 inch) WGr-210 "Dodel (*****)" rockets in place of the underwing cannon ("R21"), for use as a "Polk Zerstoerer (formation breaker)". The big rockets were not very accurate and rarely hit anything, but they were useful for disrupting formations.

There was also a modification kit that exchanged the MG-151/20 Motorkanone for an MK-108 30 millimeter cannon ("U4"), and a similar kit that swapped the MG-151/20 for an MK-103 30 millimeter cannon.

The MK-108 was a short barreled, low-velocity weapon that could fire mine shells. It didn't have much range, but it could be devastating if it scored a hit. Crews called it the "Jackhammer" because of its appearance and the sound of its firing.

The MK-103 was a long barreled weapon and more potent than the MK-108, as it used a full-length round. It could fire tungsten-core armor-piercing rounds for use as an anti-tank weapon or incendiary rounds for air combat. Lack of availability of these heavy cannon meant they were a somewhat unusual weapons fit.

There were specialized kits, such as a radiocompass ("R7"); GM-1 nitrous oxide boost ("U2"); and "MW-50" water-methanol engine boost system ("U3"). Water-methanol boost permitted higher combat power by spraying the water-methanol mixture into the cylinders as a cooling measure. The water actually did the cooling, the methanol was only added as anti-freeze for winter and high-altitude operation.

Another set of modification kits were implemented to provide a tail assembly with a wooden frame ("U2" again) in order to avoid use of increasingly scarce metals, and then a similar wooden tail assembly with a taller rudder ("U4" again).

* The "Bf-109G-2" was produced in parallel with the Bf-109G-1, and differed in lacking the pressure cabin and GM-1 nitrous oxide boost. The Bf-109G-2 was built in substantially larger numbers than the Bf-109G-1, and was produced in a wide range of modifications.



* Although a "Bf-109G-3" variant was produced, the next version of the Gustav to be introduced was actually the "Bf-109G-4", with initial deliveries in October 1942. It was very similar to the Bf-109G-2, the major difference initially being that the FuG-7A radio was replaced with an FuG-16ZY radio with longer range. After initial production, the Bf-109G-4 was also fitted with larger mainwheel tires, to handle the greater weight of the Gustav, and to accommodate the bigger tires a bump was built into each wing. This particular bump may have also led to the Gustav being known as the "Beule".

The Bf-109G-3 followed the Bf-109G-4 into production, and was basically a Bf-109G-1 with an FuG-16ZY radio. Some later production featured the wooden tailplane assembly.

* Again, although a "Bf-109G-5" was built, the "Bf-109G-6" was introduced into service first, and in fact was the major Gustav production variant. The Bf-109G-6 was the first subvariant to feature the twin MG-131 13 millimeter cannon as standard fit, along with the MG-151/20 Motorkanone. It did not have cockpit pressurization. Late Bf-109G-6 production featured items such as a taller rudder and longer tailwheel leg to improve ground handling; radio compass as standard fit; and the new "Galland hood", a bulged canopy to improve visibility.

The Bf-109G-6 was the most heavily produced of the Gustavs, with different subvariants using different versions of the DB-605. It was sometimes fitted as a Jabo but particularly used as a bomber destroyer, with the "gunboat" modifications.

MESSERSCHMITT BF-109G-6:
_____________________ _________________ ___________________

spec metric english
_____________________ _________________ ___________________

wingspan 9.92 meters 32 feet 6 inches
wing area 16.10 sq_meters 173.30 sq_feet
length 9.03 meters 29 feet 7 inches
height 2.5 meters 8 feet 2 inches

empty weight 2,673 kilograms 5,890 pounds
max loaded weight 3,400 kilograms 7,500 pounds

maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT
range with drop tank 1,000 kilometers 620 MI / 540 NMI
_____________________ _________________ ___________________


One of the more interesting Bf-109G-6 modifications was the "Bf-109G-6/N", referred to in some sources as the "Bf-109G-6/U4N", which was fitted as a night-fighter with "FuG-350 Naxos Z" electronics to home in on centimetric radars used by RAF bombers. The night fighter was also fitted with exhaust flame dampers and a radio compass, with the directional loop antenna fitted to the bottom of the aircraft as the Naxos Z antenna was fitted to the top, and was configured as a "gunboat". The radio compass was needed to help the pilot get back to base in the dark. Radar wasn't fitted, as German radars of the time were generally bulky and required a second crewman as a radar operator.
The Bf-109G-5 was identical to the Bf-109G-6 except that it had cockpit pressurization. There was no production "Bf-109G-7". The "Bf-109G-8", introduced in late 1943, was a reconnaissance fighter modification of the Bf-109G-6, with a camera in the rear fuselage, a gun camera in the left wing, and the twin cowling guns deleted.

* Gustav gunboats were one of the mainstays of the Luftwaffe's defense of the Reich against Allied bombers, and many techniques were used to knock down the attackers. Gustavs were even used to drop fragmentation bombs with time-delay fuzes to break up the formations, but this approach was not very successful.

As a night fighter, the Gustav was used in what were referred to as "Wilde Sau (Wild Boar)" tactics, in which day fighters fitted with little or no night-fighting equipment were sent to fly at high altitude over the target area. The target area, far from being blacked-out, would remain lit up, both by city lights and fires resulting from the bombing, to reveal the black silhouettes of RAF bombers below the Wilde Sau fighters.

The Wilde Sau program was the idea of a bomber pilot, Major Hajo Hermann, and many of its warriors were bomber pilots as well. Initial experiments in the tactic were conducted starting in the spring of 1943, but Wilde Sau became the "only game in town" when the RAF starting dropping "window", or strips of aluminum foil designed to jam radar, in July 1943, blinding German air-defense radars and night fighters. Wilde Sau proved effective in killing RAF bombers, but night flying in aircraft poorly equipped for the task proved dangerous, particularly in bad winter weather. Trying to find someplace to put down could be a problem, and in many cases Wilde Sau pilots simply bailed out of perfectly good aircraft when their options ran out.

Only a few of the Bf-109G-6/N night fighters were built, since by the time they began delivery the Wilde Sau groups were being disbanded, both because of combat attrition and the fact that the Germans had been able to overcome RAF electronics countermeasures to an extent. Had the Bf-109G-6/Ns been available earlier, they might have made a difference since they also had a radio compass, allowing them to find their way back to base at night.

* The "Bf-109G-10" was basically an attempt to standardize Gustav production, incorporating gear provided in various modification kits for earlier subvariants as standard, and fitted with a DB-605D engine with MW-50 water-methanol injection that gave it a top speed of 690 KPH (429 MPH) at altitude. Armament consisted of an MG-151/20 20 millimeter Motorkanone and twin MG-131 13.7 millimeter guns in the cowling, and the subvariant was fitted with the FuG-16ZY radio. Later production featured the taller tail, longer tailwheel leg, and Galland hood introduced with late-production Bf-109G-6s.

Bf 109G-1 With DB605A-1 and GM-1
Bf 109G-1/Trop With one 20mm and two 15mm guns
Bf 109G-2 Unpressurised verson of G-1
Bf 109G-2/R1 Fighter-bomber version
Bf 109G-3 With FuG 16Z radio
Bf 109G-4 Unpressurised version of G-3
Bf 109G-5 With enlarged rudder; had DB605D with MW-50
Bf 109G-6 With variations of DB605 and armament packages; commonly one 30mm and two 13mm guns. Many R and U sub-variants.
Bf 109G-6/R6 A common sub-variant - 2 extra underwing 20mm guns
Bf 109G-8 Reconnaissance Fighter
Bf 109G-10 With DB605G and MW-50
Bf 109G-12 Two-seat trainer
Bf 109G-14 With one 20mm and two 15mm guns plus provision for underwing guns or rockets
Bf 109G-16 Ground-attack fighter

Abbuzze
11-27-2005, 04:01 AM
Good read Woofiedog,

but with the usual mistakes from many books. Lets start with the worst.

maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT

This datas are from a G6/R6 a 109 with gunpods!
limiting roll, speed, climb and turn!

Usual speed of a clean 109G6 was 407mph!

And the G10 was not the attempt to standardize the G6 production. This attempt was the G14! In fact the G14 was build before the G10.

Basicly a G14 was nothing more than a later G6 frame with MW50 to increase boost, the erla hood and the tall tail.

The G10 was the attempt to create a plane, using a G6 frame, but with the Kurfürst engine. Bringing a G6 airframe to the performance of a late war fighter.

A few small typos.
G10(also K4) engine was the DB605D
The G5 with the 605D was maybe the prototype of the 605D in 1942, but wasn´t used till 1944.
Standard engine of the G5 was the DB605A

G14 didn´t had 15mm in the cowling, they simply don´t fit in a small planes like the 109.

woofiedog
11-27-2005, 04:10 AM
Abbuzze... Thank's for the corrections... I'm not at home so I don't have my books to cross reference with.

Monson74
11-27-2005, 05:16 AM
To my knowledge the G6/AS-variant only saw service on the Western Front with 600-700 built.

JG52Karaya-X
11-27-2005, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by woofiedog:
The initial production "Bf-109G-1" began to arrive at Luftwaffe units in March 1942 .... GM-1 nitrous oxide boost was standard.

I dont know how often this error is made. GM1 was NEVER ever standard on ANY Bf109. In fact it was extremely rare! The Gustav however had the necessary fuel lines installed as standard (not much of a weight hit) but the GM1 tanks still had to be installed seperately. In the end the same GM1 lines and tanks were used for MW50 on some of the late Bf109G6 before the definite MW50 planes such as the Bf109G14(/AS), G10 and K4 arrived

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-27-2005, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by woofiedog:
Abbuzze... Thank's for the corrections... I'm not at home so I don't have my books to cross reference with.

That's pretty neat off the top of your head, mate. Remind me to put you on my 'phone a friend' list if I ever get on Who wants To Be A Millionaire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

woofiedog
11-27-2005, 06:09 AM
Low_Flyer_MkII... Remember... LoL! I'm Lucky if I can recall what day it is... might have to do with the 11-7 shift for the past 19yr's.
One of the things I picked up here on the Forum... Cut & Paste for the most part. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-27-2005, 06:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kurfurst__
11-27-2005, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by woofiedog:
The initial production "Bf-109G-1" began to arrive at Luftwaffe units in March 1942 .... GM-1 nitrous oxide boost was standard.

I dont know how often this error is made. GM1 was NEVER ever standard on ANY Bf109. In fact it was extremely rare! The Gustav however had the necessary fuel lines installed as standard (not much of a weight hit) but the GM1 tanks still had to be installed seperately. In the end the same GM1 lines and tanks were used for MW50 on some of the late Bf109G6 before the definite MW50 planes such as the Bf109G14(/AS), G10 and K4 arrived </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are mixing some things up, indeed to GM-1 was a standard equipment on the pressurized, high altitude 109g-1 and G-3 models, all had the neccesary items fitted, it was only a matter of actually filling up the tanks with GM-1 or not. the non-pressurized (and apart from that, identical) G-2 and G-4 could also have GM-1, but in their case it was a factorymodification kit.

It was also a different system than what was later used for MW50 instead. The G-1 and G-3 had it as several GM-1 containing high-pressure bottles in the (right iirc) wing, the later G-5 and G-6 (at least the /u2 ones with this factory conversion; U=Umrustsatz) reverted to a single large, 115 liter insulated tank behind the cocpit. Since several of these existed already, when MW50 appeare, it was a very easy job to alter this tank to feed MW50, and not GM-1 into the engine.

Now as for the G-5/AS and G-6/AS. The first tests were made in automn 1943 with the 605AS engine, which was in fact at the time merely a Special ('Sonder') model of the standard DB 605A-1 engine, the main modification being that the old supercharger was replaced by a much larger one from the bigger cousin (44.5 liter) DB 603G.

The 109G-6/AS went into production December 1943, with a few produced in that year, production really going up in the first months, so I'd presume it saw action first at around February-March. The first definitive mention of the similiar - pressurized - G-5/AS is in Heinz Knoke's book, who notes they received brand new aircraft 'with large supercharger and menthanol injection' on the 28th April 1944. But considering it was in production for 5 months already, I doubt this would be the operational entry. IIRC some 686 were produced and a number of G-5/AS as well, some with MW50, some without. They were quickly replaced on the production line in July 1944 by the essentially same G-14/AS, which had the same engine, and MW50 as standard.

"[...]In mid-April Barran joined us, after leaving the hospital.

Brand new fighters have arrived, straight off from the factories. These are now both equipped with (high altitude) supercharged engines and the new MW booster. I had personally participated testing the latter. Thanks to this new invention, in case of emergency, we can now force the engine to 40% higher output for a duration ofseveral minutes.[...]"

- Heinz Knoke : I flew for the Fuhrer.

Entry of 28th April 1944.

More at here :

http://www.kurfurst.bravehost.com/

p1ngu666
11-27-2005, 07:17 AM
isnt the ingame g6/as actully more like a g14/as ?

JG52Karaya-X
11-27-2005, 07:49 AM
Our ingame Bf109G6/AS is quite a mixup of both G6/AS and G14/AS. It has the external 3D model of the real G6/AS (DB605AS, no MW50) but has the performance of the G14/AS (DB605ASM, with MW50).

However the real life G14/AS as well as the G10 would have the bigger, longer wing buldges as seen on the G14 and K4.

Abbuzze
11-27-2005, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
isnt the ingame g6/as actully more like a g14/as ?

At the end the ingame G6AS is nothing but a joke!
Yes it´s more similar to a G14AS because of the MW50, but the max. poweroutput at rated alt don´t fit to any other DB605 than the 1945 ASC engine. But this engine was rated with 2000HP at SL, So it should be the most powerfull 109 in the game, but...

Our G6AS is loosing power abouve 4800m (ASC) but just have the poweroutput of the weaker and earlier ASM engine.


Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Our ingame Bf109G6/AS is quite a mixup of both G6/AS and G14/AS. It has the external 3D model of the real G6/AS (DB605AS, no MW50) but has the performance of the G14/AS (DB605ASM, with MW50).
.
As I pointed out, not real DB605ASM performance!
This engine had a similar rated altitude as the 605D in the G10, but in FB the G6AS is loosing boost 1000m below the G10. While in RL the late ASx engines usually had an even higer rated alt.

Kurfurst__
11-27-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Our ingame Bf109G6/AS is quite a mixup of both G6/AS and G14/AS. It has the external 3D model of the real G6/AS (DB605AS, no MW50) but has the performance of the G14/AS (DB605ASM, with MW50).


Quite a few G-6/AS had MW 50 injection, it wasn't only found on the G-14/AS.

Copperhead310th
11-27-2005, 09:45 AM
Yes and the truth once again is revield that by 1943 the Bf-109 was an infearior aircraft and had long out lived it's production life.

Abbuzze you care to back those numbers up?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif"Usual speed of a clean 109G6 was 407mph!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I find that hard to belive for an outdated fighter such as the 109. i would find far more believible:
maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT
Yep 385 sounds about right.

Kurfurst__
11-27-2005, 10:19 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

luftluuver
11-27-2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Yes and the truth once again is revield that by 1943 the Bf-109 was an infearior aircraft and had long out lived it's production life.

Abbuzze you care to back those numbers up?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif"Usual speed of a clean 109G6 was 407mph!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I find that hard to belive for an outdated fighter such as the 109. i would find far more believible:
maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT
Yep 385 sounds about right.

Germans give max speed at 'Climb&Combat' power, not at 'WEP' power.

Abbuzze
11-27-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Yes and the truth once again is revield that by 1943 the Bf-109 was an infearior aircraft and had long out lived it's production life.

Abbuzze you care to back those numbers up?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif"Usual speed of a clean 109G6 was 407mph!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

I find that hard to belive for an outdated fighter such as the 109. i would find far more believible:
maximum speed 621 KPH 385 MPH / 335 KT
Yep 385 sounds about right.

Why are they much more believable?

Ok here are number of different G6 without clearance of 1.42atü boost, so they are weeker and slower than the late G6 with tall tail, and the aerodynamical improved erla hood.

G6-Tropen 1.3atü (desert airfilter) with gunpods: ~378mph
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109gspeed.jpg
all others around 385-390mph. But this are number for the early 109G´s! Most of the 109G6 were produced in 1944 when 1.42 was cleard.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109gspeed.jpg

Just keep in mind the difference between 1.3 and 1.42 atü 165HP@SL and still 105HP@5.7km
http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605ab.jpg
http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605.htm

Beside, G2 was tested by russians with 665km/h- 413mph, undoubtfull with 1.42atü. Without bulges, but with the aerodynamical worse birdcage canopy.

And luftluuver. Is correct the 385mph fits to 1.3atü, that was climb&combat power. 1.42atü is WEP.

But no doubt, till the advent of the G10 and G14 the 109 was outperformed by many enemy fighters.
And I should write "around" 407mph. Thats correct.

F19Gladiator
11-27-2005, 12:20 PM
Trying to answer the original question from 'dasriech', I compiled the below from different sources with the usual risk of mistakes, by quoting the same mistakes as the authors have quoted.......

Bf109G-6/AS

Not finding any good reference on the G-6/AS history in total, I did a quick desk study this afternoon. I guess some of you have some data and corrections to the below, which would be very welcome.

Trying to frame the time period of operational use.

"Introduced in the beginning of 1944" circulates ...

Skimming some relevant books as per references of G-6/AS in operational use below, it seems like the most probable time frame to meet a G-6/AS in the air is between February to October 1944. Apparently the AS version came to several units in February to June 1944. The very high attrition rate on the West front in the summer probably gave them a short operational life, and as the G14, G10 and even K-4 started reaching units in numbers late summer and autumn under the Jagerprogram, it is likely they were replaced by these new versions. The low manufacturing numbers until production ending in August, also reflect that it was probably not too many of them operational after the carnage of 1944.
Order of Battle for Bodenplatte operation reveal they are practically all replaced in the West by later versions G-14, G-10 and K-4.


High Altitude version

Being a high altitude version I would look into the high altitude protection Staffeln and Gruppen for trace of usage, for example 2./JG 51 and 16./JG 3 in the summer of '44. I/ and III / JG300. However already on 7 August '44 the high altitude Gruppen of JG300 are referred to as using G-10 and G-14 versions, why the G-6/AS might have seen a relatively short operartional life span (2)
Stab JG11 and III/JG4 also flew high altitude protection in September of '44.

References of G/AS in operational use.

JG1
Picture of a G-6/AS of 7./JG1 in the picure caption dated "February 1944, Paderborn"

Stab and III/JG1 listed as flying G-6 and G-5 / G-6 respectively in March 1944. No /AS version mentioned (3)

Alfred Grislawski took command of G-6/AS equipped 8./JG1 in Paderborn. Flew first mission on 9 April 1944. (9)

On 19 April about 20 of III/JG1 BF109s were destroyed or damaged at their Paderborn base in a bombing attack. (Replaced by what version(s)?????) (3)
"21 109's put out of commission" in this attack (9)
Three days later in April about 20 remaining III/JG1 Bf109s were on opearation under coomand of Grislawski, losing 12 a/c against 4th FG Mustangs. (9)


7./JG1 flew G6/AS from Paderborn in May 1944.III/JG1 flew G-6 and G-6/AS on 11 May. Kommodore Walter Oesau flew a G-6/AS. Green 13, when shot down and killed this day(3)

(1./JG1. and 2./JG3. G6/AS skins are presented by Canon at his website with dates given as April and May '44.)

8./JGI flew G6/AS and G-6 from La Fere in July '44 (3) III/JGI had returned to Wunstorf in June after losing many a/c in the bombing raid on June 11, re-equipping on new G-6, including many G-6/AS (3).
On 9 July III/JG1 had fifty pilots and brand new Bf109s, leaving for France. (9)

III/JG1 flew G6/AS from Anklam in "late autumn" '44. (3) In December III/JG1 had G-14 version.

JG2
" On 28 May II/JG2 left Creil for Germany leaving the worn-out Gustavs behind to re-equip with newer sub-variants of the Bf109G-6" (5) (Was G-6/AS included??)

JG3.
May 1944, at Magdeburg, 2/JG3 Wnr 412179, black14, high altitude grey camouflage profile. (4)

JG4

JG11
G-5/AS profile 110064, II/JG11 at Wunstorf April 1944. (4)

JG26

III/Gruppe flew their "old Bf109G-6 'Beulen' " still over Normandy in June 1944. Obviously a statement that they dis not have the /AS version yet.
(I/ and II/ JG26 had Fw190)
In loss lists for July, August and September there are still G-6/U4 and G-6 listed for III/JG26, changing to G-14 later in the year.
End of September III/JG26 replaced the old "Beulen" when they received new G-14 with 1800 hp DB605ASM engines with MW50 equipment. Later a few G-10 arrived. (10)
No mentioning about G-6/AS for JG26 to my findings..

JG 27
II/JG27 was in Fels Am Wagram, Austria in June - July '44, to work up on the about 60 G-6/AS received for forming a unit for high-altitude escorts. II Gruppe arrived 7 June to Austria.
Started operations on 2 July. (8)
JG27 was re-organized in August '44, II Gruppe "continuing to operate it's specialised high-altitude late Gustavs" (no reference to sub-type).As it is further written that by end of August, after two months of battle, II Gruppe had lost 30 pilots killed or reported missing with another 15 wounded, The high attrition rate indicates need of a/c replacements but no indication on number or type received.(8)
I and IV Gruppen flying G-14. III Gruppe said to have already received K-4. (timing a bit unclear here).( First K-4s came to units in mid October according to other sources.) (8)

Production

Prien and Rodeike refers to 686 to have been built, where of only 226 built new at Regensburg in series 165000 May to August 1944, the remaining being converted airframes under repair. A listing of converted a/c per factory is included in the book.
G-14/AS and even K-4 coming to units mid october 1944.(6)

First deliveries to III/JG1, 1./JG5 and II/JG4 in late spring 1944. Shortly after 1./JG3 and II/JG27 are to have received "substantial quantities of the G-6/AS"
Also 1./NJGr.10 are to have received G-6/AS. (6)

For Regensburg Werke there are 325 G-6/AS listed as produced 1944, or rather in the test flight activity, which number equals Regensburg's manufacturing for 1944 in the same listing(7)

Reference litterature used

(1) Ref Bodenplatte, Hikoki.
(2) Ref Jagdwaffe Vol 5, Section 3.
(3) Ref Defenders of the Reich JG1 Vol 3
(4) Ref Osprey Aircraft Of The Aces 29
(5) Ref Osprey Aviation Elite Units 1. JG2
(6) Ref Messerschmitt Bf109 F, G & K Series. Prien and Rodeike
(7) Ref Messerschmitt Bf 109 F €" K. By W. Radinger and W. Otto.
(8) Ref Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', Aviation Elite Units 12. Osprey.
(9) Ref Graf & Grislawski, a Pair of Aces, Bergstrom.
(10) Ref The JG26 War Diary Vol2., D.Caldwell.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

stathem
11-27-2005, 01:42 PM
As has been said, the 'in-game' G6/AS is a real mish-mash - but since it has MW50, it should really not be considered for use before late spring 1944.

As for G6-late - dunno what this plane actually represents. Prior to summer 1943 DB605A engines were limited to 1.30ATA MAP due to pre-ignition causing failures in the fairly weak piston-crowns when run at 1.42ATA. Engines were overhauled and given pistons with increased crown thickness in the field, but it wasn't until Bosch had developed the DW250ET 7/1 spark plug, in summer 1943, that G6s could run at 1.42 ATA as per design. Maybe this is what the G6-late represents.

I would presume any G6 running at 1.42 should thus not considered for use until post July 1943.

IL2-chuter
11-27-2005, 06:17 PM
Continuous developement throughout its life makes defining the game's Late G6 difficult. Not knowing what THE Late G6 is versus A Late G6 is the problem. The G6 was intended to remain in production until early '45 in Hungary incorporating most if not all of the airframe updates (the last G6s were seen with tall tailwheels and, just maybe, double oversize tires) although in reality it ended in December '45. As easily as wings, tails and engines could be changed (on the 109 particularly!) field alterations, factory expediency and airframe recycling can, if you can believe this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif , cause confusion.

As mentioned above the G6AS was mostly based on recycled airframes and appears to have been replaced in the supply chain by the K, G10 and G14AS. Reasonable speculation . . . it's all we have. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


On a side note: MK108 gunpods don't seem to exist anywhere but on a few G6 test aircraft and in IL2. They apparently had a noticeable impact on performance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Xiolablu3
11-27-2005, 10:30 PM
I'm sure that Heinz Knockes book talks about Mk108 gunpods?

He talks of some 109s with rockets (his own included) and some with MK108 gunpods, I think?

Could be wrong tho.


I think they were delivered in the field mod kits (the /R planes) to be used when and if needed. (this is why they 'dont seem to exist' on production aircraft)

IL2-chuter
11-28-2005, 01:12 AM
By "not seem to exist" I mean in photos or on field reports. Jochen Prien couldn't find any photos or other evidence for his and Peter Rodeike's book "Messerschmitt Bf109F,G,&K" so he doesn't think they existed but there are not to favorable test reports. In contrast there are all sorts of photos of 20mm pods in service. And when it comes to 109s . . . "production aircraft" is a vague term also, as so many were re-produced and so aren't completely standard. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I like Heinz's book but permanently (I guess) loaned it out some time ago and have yet to get it back. He mentions attempting to glide back to base in a new G6 with the coolant shot out and having to periodically shut down the engine and feather (yep, feather) the prop to cool the engine between runs. He came up short, getting picked up by a Siebel that was flying around picking up some of the other guys as well.

Xiolablu3
11-28-2005, 02:29 AM
Yes, good book, I only read it recently and have too lent it a friend.

Its ridiculous how the last third of the book seems to be him getting shot down over and over, yet he always escapes bad injury. I think the bad wound he gets at the end of 1944 saves his life.

And when he talks about the odds he was facing day after day, attacking 400+ bomber with fighter escorts and his own squadron having only about 9 or 10 planes (even less as time goes on) **** thats one brave man.

Have you read any similar books you can recommend to me? What are Adolf Gallnads books like? I thought about getting one off ebay 'The first and the Last' it was called. I prefer real life accounts rather than War 'stories' The more techinical info about the planes the better! (within reason)

I was a little annoyed when as a passing comment Heinz knocke says ' A couple of months ago we changed to ME109G's' I thought to myself 'What? Is that it? Tell me which 109G! What engine, is it fast? Tell me more about the plane!' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Guess I am just a Train(Plane?)Spotter!

p1ngu666
11-28-2005, 03:38 AM
i read a book like that where each one of guys kids was mentioned like that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
11-28-2005, 05:02 AM
the in game 109 familie would have been realy improved if the maddox team had made two things:

1. delete the MW50 system from the G6/AS and gave it a better high alt performance , but worser low altitude performance , than the G6Late. would have been a wondefull plane for early 1944 missions - Big Week http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2. gave the G14 the MG151 as standart weapon. the only possibility in the moment to avoid a MK108 overkill in late war coop missions is to use this "funny" G6/AS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ugly_Kid
11-28-2005, 05:30 AM
If you like Knoke's book, I'd also recommend Willi Reschke's book about JG300/301 it's now available in english. There's a real MK108 party going on at times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Skalgrim
11-28-2005, 11:29 AM
150 G6/as has get mw50 from more as 1000, when i right remember from oleg post.

They had use c3 fuel and therefor 2000ps, because db605as develop 2000ps with c3 + mw50

they had red gear, better for the mechanic too differ from other g6/as without c3 fuel

the g6/as engine works mw50 until 7800m, was it not lesser at the db605d?



so the should even outclimb k4 and above 6000m even easy

can remember old patch g6/as was bettert as k4 above 6000m from climb and zoomclimb.


Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
Our ingame Bf109G6/AS is quite a mixup of both G6/AS and G14/AS. It has the external 3D model of the real G6/AS (DB605AS, no MW50) but has the performance of the G14/AS (DB605ASM, with MW50).


Quite a few G-6/AS had MW 50 injection, it wasn't only found on the G-14/AS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Abbuzze
11-28-2005, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
150 G6/as has get mw50 from more as 1000, when i right remember from oleg post.

They had use c3 fuel and therefor 2000ps, because db605as develop 2000ps with c3 + mw50

they had red gear, better for the mechanic too differ from other g6/as without c3 fuel

the g6/as engine works mw50 until 7800m, was it not lesser at the db605d?



so the should even outclimb k4 and above 6000m even easy

can remember old patch g6/as was bettert as k4 above 6000m from climb and zoomclimb.




The problem is, the 7800m for rated alt was without MW50!! And the AS without MW50 may perfom better abouve the rated alt of the K4, because of the missing ~150kg of the MW50 system.

Lets take a look at the DB605AS Performance:
1200 hp at 8000m WEP
1150 hp at 7800m Climb/combat
just a slight difference cause this was the limit of the bigger charger.

Now the 605ASM
1500 hp at 6400m WEP
1150 hp at 7800m Climb/combat

Rated alt decreased with the use of MW50. Abouve the rated altitude MW50 just cooled the eninge,
without increasing power, but also without reducing it compared to a none MW50 equiped engine. Below this altitude the powerboost was big.

Performance of the D-series was more similar, than different.
ASB and DB where nearly identical for example.
http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605.htm

Increasing boost work better the lower you are, high up, I would assume, that all late war DB605AS/D should perform the same way, because the same enginelayout and the same charger so the Boost was limited by the athmosphere.

IL2-chuter
11-29-2005, 02:44 AM
I would agree with Abbuzze. As the ability to overboost decreases with altitude the WEP output will begin to decrease. On an unrelated nit pick of a note: the 3D model has both upper cowl bulges (AS and D engines) equal in size. As everyone no doubt already knows the right side bulge was markedly smaller than the left one . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Now what?

LeOs.K_Walstein
11-29-2005, 07:45 AM
---"[/QUOTE]

That's pretty neat off the top of your head, mate. Remind me to put you on my 'phone a friend' list if I ever get on Who wants To Be A Millionaire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif[/QUOTE]---"

LOL

Tough guys know these things by heart http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Have a nice day,
Wallstein

MC202zipper
11-29-2005, 09:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

.....and poor me that I thought of myself not being exactly the last noob when it cames about technical matters about german fighters...
and then I found THIS...
OMG!!
Gentlemen, this is without doubt the best technical post I have seen on 109G & K since I have...Internet... seriously.

Chapeau! as French says http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
And 10 minutes of copy & paste... ...in double copy in two different folders, just to have it REALLY safe...

I was TRYING to make something like this just for DB605 some weeks ago, cutting & pasting trough many sites... ...I should have known where the good guys hang around, tough! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Thank you all!

S!

MC202zipper

lrrp22
11-29-2005, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Skalgrim:
150 G6/as has get mw50 from more as 1000, when i right remember from oleg post.

They had use c3 fuel and therefor 2000ps, because db605as develop 2000ps with c3 + mw50




Skalgrim,

1.98 ata develops 2000 PS, not C3 + MW50. There is no evidence that the DB605AS was ever cleared for 1.98 ata.

LRRP

Xiolablu3
11-29-2005, 11:58 AM
Interesting read this thread. I learnt much about 109 types I didnt know.

Thankyou all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif