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View Full Version : Joystick Advice Please!



gamer025
12-27-2009, 05:47 AM
Hey there. I need a new joystick and kind of want the complete setup. I can't afford too much but I'm saving up.

So I'm thinking between:

Thrustmaster T-FLIGHT Hotas X (with pedals eventually)
Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar (same as above)
Logitech G940
CH Products setup.

I would like trim wheels too because I hate not being able to trim my plane; keyboard trimming just doesn't cut it.

If there are other options that are good I will really consider them. I'm not into user-made or modded stuff, I'd rather just buy it.

If anyone uses the Hotas X and it's quality-made please say so.

Thanks everyone.

megalopsuche
12-27-2009, 07:14 AM
It's been said mnany times before: CH is expensive, but it will last for years and years without problems. I've had mine for 12 years.

VMF-214_HaVoK
12-27-2009, 08:38 AM
CH

Sillius_Sodus
12-27-2009, 09:32 AM
The CH throttle doesn't have any rotaries so you would have to map your trim to either a couple of buttons or a hat switch. That said, it is a nice throttle.

gamer025
12-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
The CH throttle doesn't have any rotaries so you would have to map your trim to either a couple of buttons or a hat switch. That said, it is a nice throttle.

Doesn't the joystick on CH have 2 trim wheels for ailerons and elevators? I'd like to be able to trim the rudder as well.

I realize the CH is really good but I'm not willing to doll out almost $400 for them just yet.

WTE_Ibis
12-27-2009, 04:25 PM
CH Products setup

Only way to fly,
if you don't want to ever replace your setup due to faults.
cheers.


.

Sokol__1
12-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Doesn't the joystick on CH have 2 trim wheels for ailerons and elevators? I'd like to be able to trim the rudder as well.

These dial "trim" CH stick not are analog trims, are mechanical device that change the center of pot - this is a legacy from DOS era - not adequate for property trim in today simulators.

HOTAS that have analog trim dial are Saitek X-52/PRO, HOTAS Cougar and G940.

Sokol1

gamer025
12-27-2009, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Sokol__1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Doesn't the joystick on CH have 2 trim wheels for ailerons and elevators? I'd like to be able to trim the rudder as well.

These dial "trim" CH stick not are analog trims, are mechanical device that change the center of pot - this is a legacy from DOS era - not adequate for property trim in today simulators.

HOTAS that have analog trim dial are Saitek X-52/PRO, HOTAS Cougar and G940.

Sokol1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for info.

Ba5tard5word
12-27-2009, 11:32 PM
Which of these is good for Il-2?

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/joysticks.html

Also they're all cheaper on amazon if anyone is interested.

Sokol__1
12-28-2009, 05:01 AM
For IL-2 you can begin with the CH Combatstick (if save ~U$ 30 is important) plus CH PRO (rudder) pedal.
Fighterstick have more 6 buttons (in two HAT's).
Eventually add a PRO throttle.
You get better prices in eBay or online vendors.

Sokol1

Urufu_Shinjiro
12-28-2009, 02:37 PM
I'm still looking hard at the G940, I can't deal with a setup with no rotaries at all, CH is nice stuff, but they desperately need a new product or three.

ibeagle
12-28-2009, 04:19 PM
If money is no object, I highly recommend a Cougar with either Evenstrain or NXT mods, but definitely not a stock one for il2.

gamer025
12-29-2009, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by ibeagle:
If money is no object, I highly recommend a Cougar with either Evenstrain or NXT mods, but definitely not a stock one for il2.

I almost bought a stock one, what is wrong with stock for IL2?

I'm not going with CH products (except for pedals) because I want proper trim controls.

Airmail109
12-29-2009, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by gamer025:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ibeagle:
If money is no object, I highly recommend a Cougar with either Evenstrain or NXT mods, but definitely not a stock one for il2.

I almost bought a stock one, what is wrong with stock for IL2?

I'm not going with CH products (except for pedals) because I want proper trim controls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very noticeable detents at the axis crossovers and an annoying rubber boot.

If you want a cougar you need to have the gimbal mod at the very minimum. Which does make it awesome.

gamer025
12-30-2009, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Very noticeable detents at the axis crossovers and an annoying rubber boot.

What exactly does that mean?

Ba5tard5word
12-30-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't mind trimming with the keyboard, would the trim wheels on these CH sticks work for throttle? I don't really want to spend another $100 on a throttle lever when I am thinking about getting rudder pedals.

Also would it be possible to have a CH stick for maneuvering then another stick also plugged in just for throttle? I like the throttle lever on my Logitech stick, it's simple but it works well, also there are some buttons near the throttle that would be useful. Unless anyone knows of a simple throttle device that wouldn't be very expensive, the ones I've seen are like $70-100.

Tully__
12-30-2009, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by gamer025:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Very noticeable detents at the axis crossovers and an annoying rubber boot.

What exactly does that mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to push hard to get the joystick to leave the centered position, the the force is slightly lower. The same on both x and y axis.

As you move the stick from back to forward or left to right through the centre position you will fill and "clunk" as it passes centre. This was particularly noticable if you had the joystick pulled back and left and need to switch to a right roll. As you passed the centre line there would be a "notch" even though the stick was pulled back from centre.

Additionally, the material from which the stock gimbals and gimbal bearings were cast on the early Cougars (I don't know if it's been fixed) is very poor grade aluminium alloy. When new they feel alright but many users complained that they rapidly developed undesirable free play. IIRC the gimbal mod addresses this by replacing the aluminium/aliminium bearing surface with proper bearings.

The Evenstrain mod replaces the stock two springs per axis (one for deflection in each direction) that caused the "centre detent" feeling with a set of springs attached differently that gives smoothly increasing resistance in any direction and provides the same resistance regardless of which direction from centre you deflect the joystick.


The short version is if you want the very best you can get from a cougar, be prepared to pay about 50% of the purchase price on top for 3rd part mods and upgrades. It's a good stick in stock form, but not as good as the price would suggest in my opinion.

Sokol__1
12-30-2009, 05:15 PM
Ba5tard5word

CH joysticks are all 3 axis - the wheel in the left side are a ANALOG THROTTLE (other two mecanical X,Y trim that only chance the pot' center).

And, you can use CH joystick and Logitech at same time, IL-2 support four different controllers (stick, pedal, throttle, whell, gamepad...). Just reassign axis in Control>HOTAS.

The only (COTS) stand alone throttles of the market are CH PRO Throttle and Saitek PRO Flight Throttle Quadrant.
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/quad.htm

This last you get for under $ 50. Have 3 axis and 6 buttons.

Sokol1

rcgreen70
12-30-2009, 06:50 PM
if i may ask a dumb question.... can i use my 2001-era sidewinder forcefeedback 2 stick in IL-2? i just got a hot new computer with windows 7 64 bit. the stick doesnt want to work in 64 bit apparantly. do i need to buy a new stick? i havent played IL2 before but played Microsoft combat flight sim for years on my XP computer.

Ba5tard5word
12-30-2009, 07:12 PM
Well if I can keep my logitech plugged in and use its throttle and buttons I guess that works, it's a bit ungainly but whatever.

Yet another question about the CH Combatstick, which I am ordering: what do you generally do for firing secondary weapons, like on a plane that has MG's set to weapon 1 and cannons to #2? I don't see an easy way to do it, but then I don't have it here in my hand to decide. The Logitech stick has a button right under the right thumb that works very well for secondary fire.

Maico_249th
12-30-2009, 11:25 PM
A few months ago I wrote this. Now I really love my Logitech

"I have just been notified by Amazon that my Logitech G940 is on its way!!! I will post my findings after about a week of use. I have X-52 + MSFFB2. My first stick in 2000 was a Logitech 30 dollar(cheap)stick. It lasted years and I gave it to a kid still servicible. Next I had a Saitek X-45(by itself) for two years. My current setup is the Saitek X-52 with the Microsoft FFB2. The Saitek throttle is the best. Other than a dead button(on my X-45) I have never had a problem with Saitek in all these years. Oh, I tried the Saitek Cyborg but it was not really good force feedback. I also bought a new CH fighterstick. I tried it for a bit but It was awkard and BIG. Too big for my hands and I wear medium gloves. This is now the dust collector. I allways go back to the Microsoft FFB2. SO , I bought 3 (just in case).

When the G940 comes it will go on my secondary Pit. If this becomes my primary then you will know its a success. On paper the G940 looks and sounds like the best thing since sliced bread. The answer to all simmers dreams. But lets see what happens."


Today, after a long wait it has finnally arrived at my home. Now I have only worked with mine for a couple of hours. I also need the new software that Logitech released.
For a detailed review read this great article by Beach AV8R.
http://www.simhq.com/_technolo...technology_155a.html (http://www.simhq.com/_technology2/technology_155a.html)


Here is my review
Bottom line up front; I built a second "pit". Ok its a desk with some controllers on it. The rig is a Intel 3.0 dual proc, DDR3 x 2Gigs, EVGA 9600 1Gig video and WinXp Pro. I will keep my other pit running and test untill I either adopt the G940 or go back to my X-52 and MSFFB2.

My order came in while I was vacationing in Thailand. I came home and had the box waiting for me. I busted open a box that is deceptively small. It was well packaged with lots of padding . Once you have the components in your hands they are good size. They dont feel like toys. Logitech did a good job of getting it all in this small a box. When it comes time to move I will be happy to have this box.

Pedals:
Pedals are nice but not huge. Mr. Thunder Thighs will have to make them wider. For the rest of us, the pedals will feel good. They have a metal surface that adds to the realism. An adjustment knob adds resistance and retractable carpet anti skid pads. I deployed these on my carpet and the pedals do not move at all. I will give the pedals an initial 8.5 out of 10. The only thing is they could be a bit wider. I will try to program brakes tonight.

Ahh, the Stick.
The stick is not huge like my beautifull CH Fighterstick. I did not like the CH because of its Huge feeling in my hands. The CH has a weird feeling. Changing from X axis to Y axis is not smooth. You feel as thou the CH is on a rails, and not in a good way. The G940 felt good as far as grip was concerned. However button placement felt like my thumb had a long way to go to some of the buttons. With practice and time this may disapear. Again the MSFFB2 buttons feel a little more reachable. You cant have your cake and eat it too. I like having two HATs at my thumb's disposal. The trim wheels and knob are the best addition EVER. They will handle my Elevator, Aileron and Rudder trim. As far as movement with the G940, the feeling was smooth. There was a bit of deadzone in the stick. It felt a bit "loose". So I dont know how this will affect precision. Force Feedback was surprising. First off, it is Very adjustable in the GUI from nearly nothing to really hard. There is a lot to play with here since there are about four individual settings for force feedback. During flight I was given a lot of feedback. Regular flying felt good but different than my MSFFB2. It will take some getting used to. Another feature was Gun Recoil. It is minimized making you feel a bit isolated from the action. I thinks this is in response to complaints about the FFB spoiling the players aim. So it Is a compromise. As a big FFB fan I did not think I would like it. I was WRONG. Two Mig3 kills later, I was liking the minimal feedback from the guns. The stick gets an 8. However the jury is still out, and I will continue to test.

The Throttle.
Welcome is the F-15 style throttle with split left and right. More buttons at your fingertips than ever before. Then there is the base buttons. Oh, how I love the X-52s buttons. However now there are 8 instead of 6 switches. . WOW, with three modes plus a shift button I am ready to take over the galaxy. Ok, I canít overemphasize that you got more buttons than you can possibly program. Two wheels on the throttle will handle prop pitch and flaps.
While it looks great it is not as comfy as the X-52 throttle. Now I know what you might be thinking, "You want comfort, go sit on the couch" However, I have spent a bunch of years with my hands sitting on top of a X-45/X52 throttle and they are very comfortable. This is again, something that I may get used to with time.

I will continue to test this hardware and post my impressions on here. Stay tuned.

DAY ONE
understand that things like this are not bought or created in a day. My first day ends up in frustration as I try to sort out Logitechís GUI. WOW this is bad. I really hope I can figure out how to assign buttons. I have had it!!!!!!! End of day one.

DAY TWO
Ok, I had to walk away last night and have a brew with my friends. Today I am going to try to figure out Logitech's interface. So, does anyone know how to use it? I tried to make a profile but could not get the stick to show the keys I programed. For example, I would program "L" into a button but when I open notepad or the game "L" does not show. In game I get " Button 3 ID1" or something like that. What I would like to see happen is to have all the commands programed like i.e. Weapon 1 would be "K" (for example) Can someone give me the "Idiots Guide" to programing ?

Got home after a long day yesturday. Sat at the pc and took out my excell profile for the stick. I spent a few minutes rearanging things then flew for two hours.
The stick is awesome. The feel is solid and force feedback is good. It is still a little too strong but there is a lot of adjustments to play with. It may take a while to find a setting that suits me. Flying around in a Komet against a bomber stream I found the stick very precise. My aiming got better(I still suck but not as bad) The pedals are excellent. They feel a lot better than my CH set. They are also very precise. In a climbing zoom I put in the tiniest adjustments with the pedals and got steel on target. It was amazing. The Logitech throttle still takes some getting used to after years of my comfy X-52. The rotaries are really handy and much more precise than the ones on the X52. If I had to fault one thing on the Saitek it is the rotaries. I could never get the trim to work with me. That is now changed. The rotaries on the G940 are easy to access and work like a charm. They only thing they lack are detents. This was a hell of an oversight.
From accross the room I can feel the old rig jealously looking at me

The bottom line is that I really like this stick. I will fly with it for the rest of the week then try my X-52/MSFFB2 again. Chances are I will come back to stay with the Logitech.
One last thought. The Saitek X-65F is in the works and word on the street is that it will be available fo

Sokol__1
12-31-2009, 07:02 AM
Yet another question about the CH Combatstick, which I am ordering: what do you generally do for firing secondary weapons, like on a plane that has MG's set to weapon 1 and cannons to #2?

You have many options:

-The big red thumb button in the left side of handle grip for Weapon2.

-The big white button in right side of stick top.

-The red button in left side of stick top (If you had big hands).

-Use pinkie button as Shift, program trigger to +Shift shoot Weapon1+2...

And you have tree mods to map and select.

Look here for profiles:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum...15-Prop-Sim-Profiles (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?15-Prop-Sim-Profiles)

Sokol1

Sokol__1
12-31-2009, 07:19 AM
2x...

Sokol1

Ba5tard5word
12-31-2009, 10:39 AM
Thanks Sokol, I ordered this yesterday along with CH pedals...finally I'll have a proper setup.

I have a $25 Logitech stick with twist rudder, it's ok but I've been frustrated lately with my nose bouncing all over when trying to aim carefully, I'm not sure if it's the stick losing its touch or what, but we'll see. The twist rudder works ok but I don't have a ton of control over it and it starts hurting my wrist after a while when I have to use a lot of rudder.

rcgreen70
12-31-2009, 11:02 AM
i see you use a FFB2 stick. i have one as well and played CFS for years on my 2001 Dell with XP. i just got a new hot Dell with win 7 64 bit and IL-2 but i can't get my FFB2 stick to work. i have the original setup disk but am i missing a griver or something? i don't want a new stick as i like this one. i got everything else to transfer and work except for the stick.... please help!

Chivas
12-31-2009, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by rcgreen70:
i see you use a FFB2 stick. i have one as well and played CFS for years on my 2001 Dell with XP. i just got a new hot Dell with win 7 64 bit and IL-2 but i can't get my FFB2 stick to work. i have the original setup disk but am i missing a griver or something? i don't want a new stick as i like this one. i got everything else to transfer and work except for the stick.... please help!

I couldn't get the MSFF2 software to load either in Windows 7 64bit. But the stick still works in Windows 7, you just can't access the Recorder to setup profiles.

For this reason I bought the Logitech G940. It was a mistake, the MSFF@ is much smoother and therefore more precise. Hopefully Logitech will update the drivers to inprove the situation but I'm not holding my breath. I've gone back to using my MSFF2, Cougar Throttle, Saitek Rudder pedal setup.

rcgreen70
12-31-2009, 11:44 AM
so can you switch win7 to 32 bit and then what, load the game and install the stick in 32 bit? i've read about this but haven't done it before. is it easy? i'm reasonably intelligent but not a tech person or pro gamer. but.... i have pals that work at microsoft up here in washington!

Maico_249th
01-01-2010, 02:17 AM
About weapons 2, Now this stick has a DUAL STAGE TRIGGER. I think CH had done this also. I saw it as a gimmick but as usual, I was Wrong. A dual stage trigger means: Squeeze a little and get only MG's Squeeze completely and you get weapons 1+2. Of course, there are programing options here.
How can I post my profile here? It is on Excel.

Sokol__1
01-01-2010, 08:49 AM
I couldn't get the MSFF2 software to load either in Windows 7 64bit. But the stick still works in Windows 7, you just can't access the Recorder to setup profiles

Go to Control Panel > Game Controllers > select Microsoft Sidewinder.

To make profiles (I prefer program buttons in DirecX mode, under game setup), you can use software's like:

SVmapper (freeware)
JoytoKey(freeware)
Xpadder (payware $9)


Now this stick has a DUAL STAGE TRIGGER.
I think CH had done this also.

No, CH sticks don't have dual stage trigger.

Actually dual stage trigger is featured in
HOTAS COugar
Saitek X-52/PRO
Logitech G-940

For WWII sim's, better is DUAL trigger (like in certain Russian planes), so you can use Mgs only, Cannon only, and Mgs+Cannon. Dual trigger in matte D.I.Y. stick:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8652/gripfinal3.th.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/gripfinal3.jpg/)

"Mechanic's":

http://img24.imageshack.us/i/diver043.jpg/

How this work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWhcFx_gJQM

Sokol1

gpang788
01-03-2010, 02:36 AM
Forget CH or Thrustmaster

The only joysticks you will ever need:

http://www.valiant-studio.eu/t...c/html/en/hangar.php (http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/html/en/hangar.php)

megalopsuche
01-03-2010, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by gpang788:
Forget CH or Thrustmaster

The only joysticks you will ever need:

http://www.valiant-studio.eu/t...c/html/en/hangar.php (http://www.valiant-studio.eu/tarmac/html/en/hangar.php)

Makes CH looks inexpensive.

Bearcat99
01-03-2010, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by rcgreen70:
if i may ask a dumb question.... can i use my 2001-era sidewinder forcefeedback 2 stick in IL-2? i just got a hot new computer with windows 7 64 bit. the stick doesnt want to work in 64 bit apparantly. do i need to buy a new stick? i havent played IL2 before but played Microsoft combat flight sim for years on my XP computer.

You can if you Look in this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3281016436/p/1). Note the last post by Sokol.. I haven't tried the SW he mentions in that last post because what I have been using (TGC)works fine...but Sokol has been in this stick thing for a while.. He was actually the inspiration for the FrankenSaitek X-45 that you see in my setup... so if he recommends it.. and you are looking for something to help with profiling that stick... As long as tghe stick is still working then it should be fine. My MSFFB2 from 2001 is being used by my son.. I use the backup stick that I got and started using in 2003 when FB came out..