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Codger1949
06-10-2006, 07:11 AM
I know nothing about these WW2 fighters to begin with. But it seems that when I get into a spin, which is frequently, it takes forever to recover. I turn and I turn and I turn. I go into a dive, reduce the power and give opposite rudder. Keep spinning. I then give it full power, hoping to get some airflow over the surfaces and finally, if I don't run out of altitude, I straighten out and fly right. I could pull out of a spin in a C-150 or Cherokee in two turns, not in these monsters. What gives? Is it the weight of these birds? The eng. alone probably weighs more than a 150. And invariably just as soon as I get my sights on some guy BOOM I go into a snap roll or a spin, lose my SA and get blasted.

VW-IceFire
06-10-2006, 08:42 AM
Thing is that a Cherokee or a Cesna is generally designed to recover quickly from a spin. The nose heavy design with wings high on the fuselage lends it to spin recovery in a very short period of time.

WWII fighters weren't designed for easy spin recovery. They were designed for high performance so there are some tradeoffs.

I would suggest learning how to fly the planes without entering a spin. Spins are a bad thing in air combat because you loose advantage extremely quickly. Some planes like the P-39 are prone to spins because of the positioning of the weight in the plane. Others like the Spitfire, Yak, and 109 tend to recover more quickly.

You do have the right technique. Power down, flaps up, counter rudder, neutral ailerons and elevators, on occasion lowering the landing gear can help. Honestly, I haven't had to break out of a spin in ages. I did spin a Do-335 once but I had no time for recovery as I spun it at 500m and it went straight into the water but thats about it in the last several months. So its possible to fly without spinning.

Codger1949
06-10-2006, 09:03 AM
Thans for the info. Believe me, when I'm up against another pilot I don't try to spin. I just get a little absorbed and forget to keep tabs on the airspeed. It seems that close to 100k. you're getting dangerously close to stall in these warbirds. Just going to have to gain experience. Another question. If I'm trying to claw for altitude and I'm bleeding off my airspeed will dropping flaps help to maintain some climb at the lower airspeeds?

FritzGryphon
06-10-2006, 09:08 AM
Low speeds and flaps will degrade your climb performance, so if you want to climb rapidly, using your best-climb speed is still your best bet.

But if for some reason you must go nose high at low speed, flaps might help you momentarily avoid stalling. I almost always use them at the top of a loop, for example, or any other time under 150kmh.

VW-IceFire
06-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Codger1949:
Thans for the info. Believe me, when I'm up against another pilot I don't try to spin. I just get a little absorbed and forget to keep tabs on the airspeed. It seems that close to 100k. you're getting dangerously close to stall in these warbirds. Just going to have to gain experience. Another question. If I'm trying to claw for altitude and I'm bleeding off my airspeed will dropping flaps help to maintain some climb at the lower airspeeds?
Nope...flaps just cause drag. They are handy for low speeds like on takeoff and landing because you're more interested in having a little extra lift. But the drag increases significantly at speed so you want to keep them tucked away for climbs and most turns.

When going for altitude, always focus on your speed rather than your angle. Try and get a feel for what speeds the plane your flying climbs best at and keep it around that speed range. Lots of people assume that because the flaps give extra lift that they help with the climb but this is a false assumption.

Back to the original subject...remember that even in combat a very smooth and precise serious of manuevers is far more useful to you than snap manuevers that may exceed the envelope of the plane your flying. Smoother and more precise manuevers give you more speed/energy and less chance of spinning or stalling. Mind you...knowing where the plane does stall can be useful. Spitfires and FW190s for instance can excecute some magnificent snap stalls which can force an overshoot if done at the right moment. Save that for when you're feeling confident.

Codger1949
06-10-2006, 11:59 AM
Thanks Gentlemen. You've answered some questions that have been nagging at me. Flying these incredible machines is entirely different than anything I've experienced. I've never, in my entire flying experience, been inverted or in some of the other unbelievable flight attitudes that I've found myself in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

horseback
06-10-2006, 12:25 PM
It seems that close to 100k. you're getting dangerously close to stall in these warbirds. 100kmh is only about 62mph. I strongly recommend either mastering conversion from Imperial units to metric and vice versa, or enabling the Toggle Speedbar command so that you can cycle the speedbar readout to something you can relate to.

I rarely let my airspeed get below 200kmh, outside of the landing circuit.

Now, about that stalling at critical moments. You may have an unconscious tendency to twitch your joystick when you're lining up your shot. I used to have the habit of snapping my head up in triumph when I pulled the trigger-no big deal if you're using a hatswitch to look around, but with TrackIR...I'd lose the target almost every time.

It took me a couple of weeks to teach myself to hold my head still. In your case, adding a bit of filtering to your joystick X-Y axes might help.

cheers

horseback

Jumoschlong
06-10-2006, 02:01 PM
I don't have any problem with spinning, and I fly fully realistic settings.

Maybe instead of spending all your time at near-stall speed in sissy-as$# turn-fights, until you figure out what the hayl you are doing, you should just make high speed zoom passes, then you will not have any problems spinning.

Also read some history books, lots of pilots who screwed around doing something stupid lost their lives or their planes in unrecoverable spins during WWII combat and training. So there is nothing wrong with the sim really, it is YOU.

Someday if you get as good as I am, you will be able to do anything at any alt and any speed in the sim, just like all the guys who are shooting you to pieces right now and watching you crash while pursuing them...

The other danger during spinning, is having her hit you in the mouth with her foot, whatchout for the love of god!

Jumo*******

nte70
06-10-2006, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Jumo*******:
I don't have any problem with spinning, and I fly fully realistic settings.

Maybe instead of spending all your time at near-stall speed in sissy-as$# turn-fights, until you figure out what the hayl you are doing, you should just make high speed zoom passes, then you will not have any problems spinning.

Also read some history books, lots of pilots who screwed around doing something stupid lost their lives or their planes in unrecoverable spins during WWII combat and training. So there is nothing wrong with the sim really, it is YOU.

Someday if you get as good as I am, you will be able to do anything at any alt and any speed in the sim, just like all the guys who are shooting you to pieces right now and watching you crash while pursuing them...

The other danger during spinning, is having her hit you in the mouth with her foot, whatchout for the love of god!

Jumo*******
i dont remember him saying the sim was the prob,he asked for advice.he was given advise,said ty,and probably went to try it out.
your the only d*** h*** here with foot in mouth diesease.nobody wants to be as good as you think you are,we all strive to do our best,not our worst like you show off so well.
like to apoligize to the moderators,but i hate know all wanna bees that run down everybody for making the same mistakes that they probably still make.

tagTaken2
06-10-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by nte70:
i dont remember him saying the sim was the prob,he asked for advice.he was given advise,said ty,and probably went to try it out.
your the only d*** h*** here with foot in mouth diesease.nobody wants to be as good as you think you are,we all strive to do our best,not our worst like you show off so well.
like to apoligize to the moderators,but i hate know all wanna bees that run down everybody for making the same mistakes that they probably still make.

There's relatively few juveniles on this forum- bar several jingoistic idiots- so rants like this are generally pisstakes.

I'm so damned good I spin to lose height.

NB, don't be shy to use flaps anytime during combat.

Akronnick
06-10-2006, 10:30 PM
With practice, you can learn to recognize the signs of an aproaching stall/spin in time to avoid them. Remember that a spin is just a stall on one wing, and stalls are caused by to high an angle of attack, not to low an airspeed. Some planes (cough, P-51, cough) can enter a spin at any airspeed. Usually, not alwalys, I can tell when I'm about to spin because one wing will start to drop. When that happens, push FULL nose down and opposite rudder IMIEDIATLY, and you may be able to avoid the spin.

IL2-chuter
06-11-2006, 02:03 AM
WWII fighters weren't designed for easy spin recovery. They were designed for high performance so there are some tradeoffs.


And yet there were a number of fighters that were extraordinarily easy in the stall prevention/early recovery realm (P-47, Hurricane and Me109, for instance). There is only one flight model in this game and it simply has some variables tweaked for different aircraft. The stall (and *always* accompanying spin) entry is about the goofiest feeling thing I've ever felt in a "plane" . . . it feels like the CG has suddenly shifted back about five feet and this, it seems, makes it very difficult to correct (not to mention feeling just plain weird) as well as it being almost impossible to stall both wings at once. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I'm not knocking the extraordinary accomplishment of this desktop sim but to throw "reality" at this guy as if the game is without error seems a bit much. I had trouble improving my game until I threw out (as best I could) my pilot training and experience and just tried to play the game. Fortunately, I never revert to the game mode when actually flying. It is what it is and does what it does very well.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Oh . . . just my opinion . . . don't take it too seriously. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif