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Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 04:30 PM
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.

Here is why. To me, it takes very little skill to dive down, get your shots off, and then run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row. It takes a LOT of skill to fight "in the furball" and survive. Thats how I fly. I find the biggest mass of swirling aluminum, and join in the fray! I typically can get 4 kills and fly my happy butt home.

Sure there is a place for it like VEF, but not in a dogfight server. Or in squad matches. But not on a server like Slammin.

The reason I bring this up was becuse last night, I was on slammin. I have been BUSTING my a$$ off for the last two months working on aircraft of various types and my new job. I have a 2 hour comute that has been slowly killing my brain cells and my time. I have not had any time to play. Last night I decided to play a little for my birthday. So I jump on slammin and started having a good time. Till a squad started pulling some cheap BS. 3 members of this squad picked P-51's and flew 5000M over the enemy base. They would all decend on whoever just took off and introduce a bunch of 1/2 inch holes into the poor targets shiny aluminum skin, and fly away.

Its nearly impossible to counter this. I voiced my complaint, and got a "take off from another airbase". I did. They came after me. It took them a good 15 minutes of constant pouncing 3 on 1 to finally take my P-39 down. I was hoping to run them out of ammo. But this got me so extreamly worked up!!! I could not take it! I have delt with this kind before (caugh, caugh, AFJ, caugh) and I have found that TYPICALLY, people who B&Z are NOT good pilots. Take them 1 on 1 level, and they will flop and flail, or run away. Later on I came back to slammin and found the SAME squad who B&Z'ed me and everyone on my team relentlessly, and they did not have the advantage. I promply dispatched all 3.

Now for people who say "it was a proper tactic in WWII", I have this to say. YA! IT WAS! You know why? Because they did not want to die!!! They feared a pro-longed enguagement and prefered to cut-n-run after 1 pass and survive. Are you telling me that your scared to die in an ONLINE game? Im sure that if WWII pilots had a "respawn" option, then they would not be scared to "mix-it-up" a little. But we, pilots of IL2 in dogfight servers should not fear death. Why RUN from a good fight if your not scared of loosing? Or is it the fear of beeing a looser?

I had one B&Z pilot run from my P-39 in a 109 and I asked "why run". His reply was "your in a better aircraft". Well #1, thats not true, and #2, its the pilot, not the aircraft that makes it better. Aristo or Crash will show you any day the 109 is more the capable of "mixing-it-up" with P-39's and LA's in a big harry furball. So I landed my P-39 and took off in a 190. The 109 pilot STILL RAN!!! I asked "Why run now? The 109 is a MUCH better dogfighter then the 190?" and I got no reply. This only proved my therie. B&Z'ers have no skill. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What do you think? Im guessing this will start a few flames, but it will be interestng to see the kinda reply's.

Just dont make it "personal" or this thread will be locked.

Gib

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 04:30 PM
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.

Here is why. To me, it takes very little skill to dive down, get your shots off, and then run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row. It takes a LOT of skill to fight "in the furball" and survive. Thats how I fly. I find the biggest mass of swirling aluminum, and join in the fray! I typically can get 4 kills and fly my happy butt home.

Sure there is a place for it like VEF, but not in a dogfight server. Or in squad matches. But not on a server like Slammin.

The reason I bring this up was becuse last night, I was on slammin. I have been BUSTING my a$$ off for the last two months working on aircraft of various types and my new job. I have a 2 hour comute that has been slowly killing my brain cells and my time. I have not had any time to play. Last night I decided to play a little for my birthday. So I jump on slammin and started having a good time. Till a squad started pulling some cheap BS. 3 members of this squad picked P-51's and flew 5000M over the enemy base. They would all decend on whoever just took off and introduce a bunch of 1/2 inch holes into the poor targets shiny aluminum skin, and fly away.

Its nearly impossible to counter this. I voiced my complaint, and got a "take off from another airbase". I did. They came after me. It took them a good 15 minutes of constant pouncing 3 on 1 to finally take my P-39 down. I was hoping to run them out of ammo. But this got me so extreamly worked up!!! I could not take it! I have delt with this kind before (caugh, caugh, AFJ, caugh) and I have found that TYPICALLY, people who B&Z are NOT good pilots. Take them 1 on 1 level, and they will flop and flail, or run away. Later on I came back to slammin and found the SAME squad who B&Z'ed me and everyone on my team relentlessly, and they did not have the advantage. I promply dispatched all 3.

Now for people who say "it was a proper tactic in WWII", I have this to say. YA! IT WAS! You know why? Because they did not want to die!!! They feared a pro-longed enguagement and prefered to cut-n-run after 1 pass and survive. Are you telling me that your scared to die in an ONLINE game? Im sure that if WWII pilots had a "respawn" option, then they would not be scared to "mix-it-up" a little. But we, pilots of IL2 in dogfight servers should not fear death. Why RUN from a good fight if your not scared of loosing? Or is it the fear of beeing a looser?

I had one B&Z pilot run from my P-39 in a 109 and I asked "why run". His reply was "your in a better aircraft". Well #1, thats not true, and #2, its the pilot, not the aircraft that makes it better. Aristo or Crash will show you any day the 109 is more the capable of "mixing-it-up" with P-39's and LA's in a big harry furball. So I landed my P-39 and took off in a 190. The 109 pilot STILL RAN!!! I asked "Why run now? The 109 is a MUCH better dogfighter then the 190?" and I got no reply. This only proved my therie. B&Z'ers have no skill. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What do you think? Im guessing this will start a few flames, but it will be interestng to see the kinda reply's.

Just dont make it "personal" or this thread will be locked.

Gib

BfHeFwMe
02-18-2004, 04:39 PM
Three on one, are you sure B&Z was really the problem, or was it really teamwork. A team of three even marginal pilots working together is going to be tough regardless of fight style.

crazyivan1970
02-18-2004, 04:39 PM
I guess you one of those guys Gibb... Allow me to disapoint you, B&Z requires just much skill as T&B. if not more... and you know it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Now for people who say "it was a proper tactic in WWII", I have this to say. YA! IT WAS! You know why? Because they did not want to die!!! They feared a pro-longed enguagement and prefered to cut-n-run after 1 pass and survive. Are you telling me that your scared to die in an ONLINE game? Im sure that if WWII pilots had a "respawn" option, then they would not be scared to "mix-it-up" a little. But we, pilots of IL2 in dogfight servers should not fear death. Why RUN from a good fight if your not scared of loosing? Or is it the fear of beeing a looser? "

I don`t want to die even with virtual death, i hate dying. There is a big difference between RUN and EXTEND too. Turnfighting Yaks and La`s in german AC is just plain silly IMO, just as having all planes available on both sides, but that just my opinion... So there! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

p1ngu666
02-18-2004, 04:42 PM
bnz is pretty much one sided fun. some guys/planes 2km seporation to turn, 190 for example
but, if its a 109, u can sometimes trick them into diving too far and fast, and watch em lawndart into a hill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
i feel u should play for fun, and with honour http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
its not realistic, and im damn well happy its not.
and btw i love a good furball too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
and the taking a stupid/crap aircraft and getting kills http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

BpGemini
02-18-2004, 04:42 PM
The most ignoramus thing I hear online is when some B&Zer thinks the fight is already won just because he has an altitude advantage. Any B&Zer is more than welcome to nose down into my 37mm as many times as he or she wants to.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

JG26Red
02-18-2004, 04:46 PM
I tend to DF more than BZ, and thats even when iam in 190s... i tend to get alt, come up on battle dive down on somebody and then stay down and turn and turn etc... i normally can do good if i have some friends around or the others dont have alt, but like you GIB, that grows old, i hate climbing all the way up, dive down shot and up and down, up and down... although it may be the proper tactic.. its boring, and i dont want to be bored in a DF room lol... even if i do end up getting shot down by other dudes in better turners... the only planes i wont try to follow in turns are LA7s and Yak3s... found out they can just get behind me in like 2-3 turns lol...there was this one time i was fighting somebody in a 51, we ended up doing 5 turns at about 259kpm.. rather funny, got dizzy and stopped.. lol.. oh well at least i make a good target

crazyivan1970
02-18-2004, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BpGemini:
The most ignoramus thing I hear online is when some B&Zer thinks the fight is already won just because he has an altitude advantage. Any B&Zer is more than welcome to nose down into my 37mm as many times as he or she wants to.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i WANT TO, i WANT TO... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.

Here is why. To me, it takes very little skill to dive down, get your shots off, and then run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row. It takes a LOT of skill to fight "in the furball" and survive. Thats how I fly. I find the biggest mass of swirling aluminum, and join in the fray! I typically can get 4 kills and fly my happy butt home.

Sure there is a place for it like VEF, but not in a dogfight server. Or in squad matches. But not on a server like Slammin.

The reason I bring this up was becuse last night, I was on slammin. I have been BUSTING my a$$ off for the last two months working on aircraft of various types and my new job. I have a 2 hour comute that has been slowly killing my brain cells and my time. I have not had any time to play. Last night I decided to play a little for my birthday. So I jump on slammin and started having a good time. Till a squad started pulling some cheap BS. 3 members of this squad picked P-51's and flew 5000M over the enemy base. They would all decend on whoever just took off and introduce a bunch of 1/2 inch holes into the poor targets shiny aluminum skin, and fly away.

Its nearly impossible to counter this. I voiced my complaint, and got a "take off from another airbase". I did. They came after me. It took them a good 15 minutes of constant pouncing 3 on 1 to finally take my P-39 down. I was hoping to run them out of ammo. But this got me so extreamly worked up!!! I could not take it! I have delt with this kind before (caugh, caugh, AFJ, caugh) and I have found that TYPICALLY, people who B&Z are NOT good pilots. Take them 1 on 1 level, and they will flop and flail, or run away. Later on I came back to slammin and found the SAME squad who B&Z'ed me and everyone on my team relentlessly, and they did not have the advantage. I promply dispatched all 3.

Now for people who say "it was a proper tactic in WWII", I have this to say. YA! IT WAS! You know why? Because they did not want to die!!! They feared a pro-longed enguagement and prefered to cut-n-run after 1 pass and survive. Are you telling me that your scared to die in an ONLINE game? Im sure that if WWII pilots had a "respawn" option, then they would not be scared to "mix-it-up" a little. But we, pilots of IL2 in dogfight servers should not fear death. Why RUN from a good fight if your not scared of loosing? Or is it the fear of beeing a looser?

I had one B&Z pilot run from my P-39 in a 109 and I asked "why run". His reply was "your in a better aircraft". Well #1, thats not true, and #2, its the pilot, not the aircraft that makes it better. Aristo or Crash will show you any day the 109 is more the capable of "mixing-it-up" with P-39's and LA's in a big harry furball. So I landed my P-39 and took off in a 190. The 109 pilot STILL RAN!!! I asked "Why run now? The 109 is a MUCH better dogfighter then the 190?" and I got no reply. This only proved my therie. B&Z'ers have no skill. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What do you think? Im guessing this will start a few flames, but it will be interestng to see the kinda reply's.

Just dont make it "personal" or this thread will be locked.

Gib<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dont get mad.. Get even! Sorry Gib, love you like a circle.. But on this one your just plane wrong! BnZ is a valid tatic.. Just because you dont have the time for it does not make it invalid! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

SKULLS_LZ
02-18-2004, 04:48 PM
Sorry but I thought FB is a WWII aircombat sim? What they did in 1942 I do on VFC*Host in 2004. Somestimes it aint pretty, I've gotten my wing shot off 200m from the runway but it happened in RL so why shouldn't it happen to me in FB?

You went to the wrong server Gib. You should have gone to BaldieJr's server where everyone flys the I-153.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.jwilliamsmusic.it/belushi.jpg
Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.

Hunter82
02-18-2004, 04:50 PM
I guess real life tactics have no place in air quake http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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xenomage2000
02-18-2004, 04:50 PM
I think you answered your own question..
when it comes down to your own life at stake or the defense of your idealogies your going to do what you have to and be damned with everything else... Remember, "All is fair in love and war..."

BpGemini
02-18-2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BpGemini:
The most ignoramus thing I hear online is when some B&Zer thinks the fight is already won just because he has an altitude advantage. Any B&Zer is more than welcome to nose down into my 37mm as many times as he or she wants to.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i WANT TO, i WANT TO... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bring it hoser!!! http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/Na_Na_Na_Na.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-18-2004, 04:52 PM
on slammin with open pit and doing some base camping up high and than B&Z in lets say a B&Z plane (doh) thats why they r there for but yes its lame to do all night long

now do it different turn the pit ON take a
FW190(D9) 109 etc and than B&Z hard?
nah thats so easy man u will hit anything while going 600+
tsss tsss B&Z in that way takes so much more skill than fightin in a furball and if someone
says the oppesite he knows nothing about fighter tactics

and if ur in a 109G6 and up ore a FW190 what the hell are u doing in a furnball anyway?

http://www.warhawks.tk/
http://www.digital-d.nl/fotos/sunburstsig.jpg

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 04:54 PM
Well for 1, I dont turn-n-burn. I fight. I twist, turn, Split-S, and do every combat manuver in the book and NOT run like a little girl when things turn south. I also employ teamwork, but I dont huver over people taking pot shots. The 3 P-51's would not let anyone climb to give them a fair fight, and I personally dont want to waist 10-20 minutes of my time taking off from a distant base and climbinb just to fight these few ****** alone. I did try that, as soon as they saw what I was doing, they all came after me. And they are the ones who suggested me take off from another base!!

I dont know about you, but I play this game to have fun. I join Slammin's server to have fun. I dont consider flying AWAY from fights and climbing for 30 mins to be fun at all. Its boring!

Also, what part of diving down on people, and running away involves skill? I have watched these people fight. I have even tried it myself. Its boring, and you dont get many kills. I have watched "professional's" B&Z and MAYBE net 2-3 kills in 15 mins. I get 4-5 kills in 3 minutes in fair fights. Plus when I B&Z, I feel so dirty. Like I need to clean the slime off.

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sun February 22 2004 at 12:06 AM.]

xenomage2000
02-18-2004, 04:54 PM
To add to that.. some people think thing should be more 'fair' because its a game (the same reason whay everone whines about the 'fairness of the flight models..). Yet this game is supposed to 'simulate' real-life circumstances so in the end its all relative to how you percieve circumstances...

crazyivan1970
02-18-2004, 04:57 PM
Oh i see what happened Gib. But that`s not your fault, or anyone elses .. Slammin dude, remember i told you that having 1 base per side is a bad idea? See what you`v done now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 04:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well for 1, I dont turn-n-burn. I fight. I twist, turn, Split-S, and do every combat manuver in the book and NOT run like a little girl when things turn south. I also employ teamwork, but I dont huver over people taking pot shots. The 3 P-51's would not let anyone climb to give them a fair fight, and I personally dont want to waist 10-20 minutes of my time taking off from a distant base and climbinb just to fight these few ****** alone. I did try that, as soon as they saw what I was doing, they all came after me. And they are the ones who suggested me take off from another base!!

I dont know about you, but I play this game to have fun. I join Slammin's server to have fun. I dont consider flying AWAY from fights and climbing for 30 mins to be fun at all. Its boring!

Also, what part of diving down on people, and running away involves skill? I have watched these people fight. I have even tried it myself. Its boring, and you dont get many kills. I have watched "professional's" B&Z and MAYBE net 2-3 kills in 15 mins. I get 4-5 kills in 3 minutes in fair fights. Plus when I B&Z, I feel so dirty. Like I need to clean the slime off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The fact that you even refer to it as running means you dont understand BnZ.. It is a skill like anything else..

To make an analogy..

BnZ is like boxing..

TnB is like wrestling..

Both valid, both require skill..

A wrestler calling a boxer chicken because he wont get in close and hug him only shows how ignorant the wrestler is of boxing

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sun February 22 2004 at 12:07 AM.]

p1ngu666
02-18-2004, 05:00 PM
play for fun, and with honour.

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 05:00 PM
When did anyone fly P-51's against P-39's in WWII, and I dont remember any pilot story's that ended with "then I hit the refly button and it was all alright". Like I said. I can see people fearing for there like in VEF, but not in online dogfight server like slammin. Its all about the furball. Any anyone who says the 109 cant turn fight needs lessons from Aristo.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yet this game is supposed to 'simulate' real-life circumstances so in the end its all relative to how you percieve circumstances...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

crazyivan1970
02-18-2004, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
When did anyone fly P-51's against P-39's in WWII, and I dont remember any pilot story's that ended with "then I hit the refly button and it was all alright". Like I said. I can see people fearing for there like in VEF, but not in online dogfight server like slammin. Its all about the furball. Any anyone who says the 109 cant turn fight needs lessons from Aristo.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I ownz Aristo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 05:03 PM
When was the last time Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield ran away from the ring, only to come back when his apponent was in the middle of the post-fight interview and hit him in the back of the head and claim victory?

Running is NOT a skill. Dont fool yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASH_SMART:

To make an analogy..

BnZ is like boxing..

TnB is like wrestling..

Both valid, both require skill..

A wrestler calling a boxer chicken because he wont get in close and hug him only shows how ignorant the wrestler is of boxing

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFJ_Locust
02-18-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO....... where you going to fly that p38 lightnin on the deck? Come on Gib...

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
When was the last time Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield ran away from the ring, only to come back when his apponent was in the middle of the post-fight interview and hit him in the back of the head and claim victory?

Running is NOT a skill. Dont fool yourself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im sorry youd dont understnad it.. Hopefully some day you will.. But in the mean time feel free to take your P47D up to 100ft and engage a I16

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

Pentallion
02-18-2004, 05:06 PM
This seems a bit silly. If you assert that it takes more skill to TnB than to BnZ then what's your gripe?
do you lack the skill to fight a BnZer?
THAT is where the skill lies. To be able to gain a BnZ advantage and exploit it when possible AND to be able to still compete when the other person has the BnZ advantage.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-18-2004, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
When did anyone fly P-51's against P-39's in WWII, and I dont remember any pilot story's that ended with "then I hit the refly button and it was all alright". Like I said. I can see people fearing for there like in VEF, but not in online dogfight server like slammin. Its all about the furball. Any anyone who says the 109 cant turn fight needs lessons from Aristo.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yet this game is supposed to 'simulate' real-life circumstances so in the end its all relative to how you percieve circumstances...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


sure a 109 can turn but not as good as a la7/zero you name it,it can turn within a la7 for a short time when with a higher E but in a sustained turn it will loose from most vvs A/C
except the G2 can hold his own

so B&N is the valid/ best tactic for a 109/190

and no i dont need any lesson in flying a 109
i already had one from Crash

http://www.warhawks.tk/
http://www.digital-d.nl/fotos/sunburstsig.jpg

Hunter82
02-18-2004, 05:07 PM
I think Gibs a little liquored up and pissed off cause he got BnZ on his B-Day. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunter82:
I think Gibs a little liquored up and pissed off cause he got BnZ on his B-Day. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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==============================<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This actually sounds more like the day after with the hang over! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Zen--
02-18-2004, 05:10 PM
Gib, I think the point you are trying to make is that some people use BnZ as a shield and go for the easy victory. I'm not talking about AFJ, I don't particularly care what other squads do, that is their bu8iness. They can fly how they like.

But if I'm right on the point you getting at, then I'd have to agree with you in a general sense. That mentality of trying to get over on someone else is altogether different than what a 'professional' BnZer is all about, at least in my eyes. That get over mentality seeks the best plane to fly, the easiest chance for victory, tends to vulch for points, hops planes from patch to patch and generally tries to exploit loop holes in the game to win. Got no time for people like that actually, they come and go with the wind.

But it's simply ABSURB to think there is anything smart about a luft plane trying to TnB against VVS fighters. You talk like that and you make yourself sound like an idiot, with all due respect. When people have b*tched at me for flying a FW to it's strengths and not to theirs, it amazes me. Why on earth would I ever choose to fight in your arena instead of mine?

I seperate pilots into 4 groups:

Lamers
New Pilots
BnZ/Energy fighters
TnB

Lamers I've mentioned, enough said.
New pilots are new pilots, can't fault them for flying easy planes or looking for the easy kill, confidence is important to success in the game and if they can build it early, then so much the better for them. With time they come to appreciate the subtleys of the game hopefully and move on to a favorite ride and end up as either BnZ or TnB fliers.

BnZ/Energy fighters are generally not a dumb bunch of guys. You think a FW190 can outclimb every VVS TnB type in the game? Think again. Make a mistake and he's breaks your E advantage, the BnZ pilot has a fun set of choices to make pretty quick.

TnB pilots prefer the man vs man action and the rush of the furball, nothing wrong with that. It does take skill and I have respect for it. Hard to say if most of these guys are really all that good, they aren't lamers but shucks, most of them fly the LA7 or Yak3, which I think can be considered the best planes in the game under most circumstances you see in a DF server which totally favors TnB dogfighting.

I respect the skill involved with that crowd, but you get plenty of cocky b*stards that think they are gods gift to the DF world...and look what they fly: Best planes in the game. (yawn) Show me a professional Yak pilot who really knows his plane, I'll happily show him my respects, same as to another 190 jock, P47 jock etc. You learn the ins and outs of your plane, you get my respect for sure.


Just because a man won't die the way you want him to, doesn't mean he's weak. In fact as a general statement, wouldn't that imply he's smarter than you? After all, he's not letting you chew him up in an arena he's handicapped in now is he? I sure as hell am not going to dive in a furball at 50 meters in my A5 and try to out skill the next guy...my display of skill comes from being where you can't be and flying in a manner you can't reach, simple as that.

I can TnB ok, not an expert but it doesn't have much appeal to me. What you call skill I call simplistic, not a lot of planning involved in my opinion. As I said, nothing wrong with it, I just don't get much out of it myself. What galls me is when someone thinks I have no skill because I don't take my non turning crate down into their world...I mean c'mon, how stupid does that sound? Why on earth would you EVER take a FW down into a swirling mass of TnB fighters...that guy is either really brave or really really stupid. (though I must confess, I do it all time lol, silly me)


Don't get mad at the lamers and say something that makes you look just as foolish Gib. We can't get rid of lamers, they exist in every game including this one. It pisses me off to no end to get shot down by Yaks but you know what? At my experience level in the FW it's either my fault or the guy was straight up better than me at my own game. Hard pill to swallow, but you got to take your lumps when you get them I suppose.


I am in agreement with you on lamers though, if thats what you're talking about. Orbiting a base waiting for the easy kill is not my idea of fun and they'd p*ss me off too under the same circumstances, but when I meet a professional BnZer or professional TnB guy, I know the fight is going to be a good one even if my ego gets bruised in the process. Out here on the forums I try to be pretty laid back because thats how I am, but in cockpit well, I just don't have any friends. No room in there with that ego http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Hope you take my post in a constructive light, just offering some counter points and my thoughts on the subject.

&lt;S!&gt;

(and disregard my post completely if it angers you to where you might not feel like working on a project)

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Recon_609IAP
02-18-2004, 05:11 PM
Most people play this game as an arcade game without much attempt to live, just to kill as many people as they can.

Then there are others who try to treat it like a sim - play to live, take pride in living.

TnB gets you the quick thrill - which is fitting for much of the Crimson Skies servers I see in HL nowdays.

S!
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ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
TnB pilots prefer the man vs man action<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which fits my analogy to wrestling.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Hunter82
02-18-2004, 05:18 PM
Personally I prefer wing tactics and ensuring my wingman and myself make it home alive. This is effective in many ways TnB and BnZ. I don't like hitting refly except after I land. I prefer to try and fly a crippled plane back to base and land rather than bail out like 85% of the players online. Tactics depend on the AC flown and it's strengths....sure you can easily fly a 109 in a DF and perform rather well.... I prefer the team tactic mentality though and generally only get involved in turning battles down low as a support device or if I know my wing is close by and not engaged

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JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
02-18-2004, 05:19 PM
HI Gibbage.

First of all,
I prefer energy Tactics, if nessesairy (don't know correct spelling) i use BnZ i use it vs. every plane if i want or feel that i will have no chance in turnfight. (eg. 190 vs La7...)
I will boom a P51, i will boom a 190, and i will boom a P38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (or whatever).


OK now i try explain u my flight-tactics(situation: same altitude, nearly equal speed)
================
First pass.
Trying to get some speed (slight dive), after pass (if enemy is turning into me) i will zoom. (i do this alsow in level-flight)
&gt; the opponent lost energy in the turn he made (mostly a verry hard one) and will bleed energy if he is trying to follow me.
So this is the situation: i'm climbing we are about equal in speed but i'm higher, he is trying to reach my alt to get into a good position for his kill &gt; everytime he's doing this less energy / speed than me.
So mostly i will go straight into a loop (no hard turns verry smooth).
================
2: The 2nd Pass.
I'm still over him: A: he used his brain he did not follow me into the loop than look at point 3.
If he forgot to check his energy status and followed me into the loop, than he is A: hanging on his prop when im finished or in the middle of the loop.
B: just stalled or had to abort because of low speed and is now cruising at low speed or lost contact with me.
So what do you think i am doing now ?
Right go down and get into possition for a first burst.
This can happen:
A: i hit him &gt; smoking, loosing fuel or something
B: i missed &gt; no visual damage.
If A i will enter a short energy fight (mixture between close combat and plain TnB) and send him down.
If B i will Zoom away and watch out what he's doing: he can do A: (use brain and get some speed and distance &gt; distance eats energy (for the incoming attacker)
but he can alsow do B: (try to follow me again)
if B happens than point 2 will start again.
For A look at point 3.
=====================
3: The final situation, we are about equal in terms of energy but do to the higher position i may get behind him.
So what next. Right i'm at his 6 entering an energyfight (TnB with energy tactics)

In one case there will be an instand problem for me. the attacker as a better energy state than me. What will i do?
Simple, let him do a hard turn.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW: this tactic is for flying in an D9, i usually don't BnZ with 109ns there rudder response at high speed is just too bad.

-----
so gibbage, can u please tell me why i am a bad pilot ?

BTW: U'm at home (on hollidays) for this week (till friday) if u have time for a dogfight on equal conditions just mail me:
theblacksheepshome@web.de

Cossack13
02-18-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
3 members of this squad picked P-51's and flew 5000M over the enemy base. They would all decend on whoever just took off and introduce a bunch of 1/2 inch holes into the poor targets shiny aluminum skin, and fly away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vulching at its worst! And the main reason that I stay away from Dogfight servers.

Was it really a tactic in combat? Sure.

Did combat really take place in a DF server kind of setting? Uh, no.

Now if someone does this in a coop, I think it is different than camping over the other base and going for the cheap kills.

And it sucks when you need to unwind and the game just tenses you up!

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ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack13:
Vulching at its worst! And the main reason that I stay away from Dogfight servers.

Was it really a tactic in combat? Sure.

Did combat really take place in a DF server kind of setting? Uh, no.

Now if someone does this in a coop, I think it is different than camping over the other base and going for the cheap kills.

And it sucks when you need to unwind and the game just tenses you up!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If Gib's orginal statement was *just* about vultching.. then he would have a valid argument on some DF servers.. not all.. some!!

But it is clear he just tossed that in and his real goal is to discredit the BnZ tatics..

In that you can vultch an airfiled in a TnB style or BnZ style!

ASH at S-MART
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Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 05:22 PM
With proper teamwork and tactics, the P-38 will be a great dogfighter. I doubt it will be a good B&Z because of its compresability problems http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Unless you throw down your air-brake your going to be a crater. When you do that, you loose energy. Now you lost your energy and the P-38 will NOT out-climb anything in 1944. So there goes your B&Z theries. My plan is to mud-move in it, and fight my way back instead of running in a P-47. My dogfighting ride-of-choice will be the P-63. Then I will be able to chase down anything with 1800HP and 608KPH on-the-deck.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:

LMAO....... where you going to fly that p38 lightnin on the deck? Come on Gib...

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

XyZspineZyX
02-18-2004, 05:26 PM
Gibbage, all you're doing is gaming the game.

Fact is, if your butt was REALLY on the line, you'd B&Z too (provided you had the right plane for it). It's safer, it's more controlled and it yields results if you do it right.

Also, it takes a lot of discipline to, as you say, "run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row". Most furballers can't do it, they have to have action NOW, even if that action is getting well and truly ventilated because they did something stupid.

B&Z is simply a more intelligent way. There's a guy who got 352 kills and survived the war that did it with these tactics. If you can produce a pilot with a better record than that (on *this* planet) I'll listen to what he has to say about tactics. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 05:29 PM
Its not about vulching, but B&Z tactics. At least people have a chance defendign against T&B vulchers because it wont take long to get to combat speed and there level. But having 3 people in an orginized squad huvering over your base at 5000M and jumping on people is just honorless and gutless. Plus people who run from fair fights are gutless. Plus what I call "astronaughts" who always stay at a VERY high altitude are gutless. These people are just scared of duing in a virtual game. It boggles the mind!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack13:

Vulching at its worst! And the main reason that I stay away from Dogfight servers.

Was it really a tactic in combat? Sure.

Did combat really take place in a DF server kind of setting? Uh, no.

Now if someone does this in a coop, I think it is different than camping over the other base and going for the cheap kills.

And it sucks when you need to unwind and the game just tenses you up!

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/White13.gif
What ever you do, do
NOT buy an Alienware!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
It boggles the mind! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of that much we are sure! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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JG27_Dacripler
02-18-2004, 05:34 PM
Nope.
It's a valid tactic and many are working just as hard as a turn-fighter to set up their target and get away in an effective one pass engagement.
Z&B is certainly an art and many who choose this style of gameplay learn their indivdual tactics and work to eliminate the need to get in a furball. They enjoy the game like you, but play it different.
As an excuse? I highly doubt it. It is their choice of what they do best. I do see a trend although, the players are getting better and better and are more well-rounded than before.. I see many people who have adapted to this game and are becoming much more situational than the past year. Many are flying a variety of aircraft and are learning the skills of low, mid and high altitude game play.
If that particular individual has a perogative to fly higher that is their preference. You choice is to either deal with it or leave. Harsh as it sounds if the game does not suit you find a different room. I too get frustrated by Z & B tactics if I am in the mess down below. But it doesn't mean the guy who knocks me down several times is a invalid excuse for a pilot. He out witted me into flying into his hands.. I lost the fight when I decided to play his "game".
I know SOME Z&B guys are horrible turn-fighters but have Marine Corps Sniper School precision marksmanship. They understand their weaknesses but developed their strenghts in other areas. I know SOME turnfighter guys are lousy shooters but they fly an aircraft like a Blue Angels Airshow pilot.

Air_Mail
02-18-2004, 05:35 PM
gibbage everyone that replied to this thread is dissagreeing with your coment. BaZ is a real tactic that works in this GAME. how long are you going to argue about this fruitless matter before you realize as long as you are physicly able to BaZ in the game people will do it. you are calling others dumb for doing it but who is really the dumb one here? the person that is shooting enemy planes and winning or the one getting shot and cursing everyone for not flying like you want them to fly. i wish i could command people to pull striaght up and stall when i dive on them.

one of the most rewarding things to do in this game is to start out below someone and work your way up through thier attacks and eventually shoot thier plane from the sky. on the other hand it takes a lot of intuition to get into a furball without someone sneeking up on you. but you have to know when to stop turning and when to start climbing because this is an airplane game. airplanes fly high. you want to turn on the ground then buy twisted metal.

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Recon_609IAP
02-18-2004, 05:37 PM
amen Stiglr - I'll drink to that

S!
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Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 05:40 PM
Lol. Playing a game safer? Then whats the point of a game? Are you scared to die in a video game? Also, B&Z does NOT net me more kills. Like I siad, I would need to spend 10X as long B&Z'ing to net me the same kills. Plus, I dont fly the game for KILLS, I fly it for fun!!! Running from fights and spending 1/2 hour climbing is not my idea of having fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Gibbage, all you're doing is gaming the game.

Fact is, if your butt was REALLY on the line, you'd B&Z too (provided you had the right plane for it). It's safer, it's more controlled and it yields results if you do it right.

Also, it takes a lot of discipline to, as you say, "run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row". Most furballers can't do it, they have to have action NOW, even if that action is getting well and truly ventilated because they did something stupid.

B&Z is simply a more intelligent way. There's a guy who got 352 kills and survived the war that did it with these tactics. If you can produce a pilot with a better record than that (on *this* planet) I'll listen to what he has to say about tactics. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

noshens
02-18-2004, 05:42 PM
I agree with Gibbage. If a guy has extra 15-20 min to climb to 5-7k altitude that doesn't nessesary mean he has any skill. And not giving anyone a chance to climb to that altitude to face him, doesn't mean he has any skill either. Anyway all that is very tiresome and the only solution I found is playing with my friends that agree on some terms of behaviour before the game starts.

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
spending 1/2 hour climbing is not my idea of having fun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So.. driving home for 1 1/2 hours is not our idea of fun! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But seriosly Gib.. your all wet on this! If you want to pit a P47 againts a I153 in a turn fight.. be my guest! If that is what is fun to you.. But you have to understand.. Not everyone here enjoys what you enjoy! Some like to invest the time and tatics.. and that is fun to them.. others like your self need that constant input and action like a pin ball machine with all the lights blinking and stuff.. And that is fine too! I and many other just dont like that kind of Air Quake of game

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XyZspineZyX
02-18-2004, 05:45 PM
Ah, the "gamer" arguments.... well, that explains your viewpoint.

The fact is, it's a simulation. The real pilots, almost to a man, TRIED not to die while they dealt death to the enemy. So, a simulation fan will realize that the goal of flying is to get your mission accomplished and LIVE to TELL about it. If you play the sim in an intellectually honest way, instead of with a mouthful of beer and pretzels, and a what-the-heck attitude (itself an easier cover for lacking skill than admitting you could learn and get better) you'd already realize that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Korolov
02-18-2004, 05:46 PM
I think the issue here is what kind of plane you have.

Trying to turn fight with a P-47 against anything is a prelude to death, and the same goes for many other planes. You can pull it off, but for the risks involved it usually isn't worth it.

You can throw a aircraft into every manuver in the book, but you have to assume that the aircraft behind you can do every manuver better than yours, and that the pilot is every bit better than you are.

In most dogfight servers with the relaxed settings that you enjoy, you'll find that everybody will use every bag of tricks they can get their hands on; nature of the beast, I'm sorry to say.

What I recommend you do is either join COOPs or host your own with a few players. That way you can have the settings you want without the same mess and fuss from dogfight servers.

One last note, Gib - you're a great member of this community, and have contributed tons more than many other people could ever hope to, but sometimes you need to chill out. Going out and posting a thread like this just ruins your reputation, even if that is not your intention.

Most of all - learn how to deal with BnZers. It's possible. Trust me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Lixma
02-18-2004, 05:47 PM
BnZ is hard. Very. It takes a lot of patience and flying/shooting ability to be successful. When you get 'boomed' you despise the tactic and blame everything on the planet rather than your lack of s.a. and/or bad luck at being otherwise engaged. It's not my preferred method of flying but i totally respect those who do it as they will probably get home in one piece.

BP_Zip
02-18-2004, 05:47 PM
Try flying a LW plane on a server where all the Reds are flying Yak3s and La7s.

You'd have to be one heck of a BnZ flyer to do any good. You can't do much against an La7 because it has double advantage: it can out-turn you and outclimb your LW plane. Energy tactics don't work against it. A well-flown Yak3 or La7 is almost unbeatable.

I was on one of these servers, and Red was racking up kill after kill. When a Red shot me down as I was retracting my landing gear on takeoff, I quit in disgust.

Only lamers fly only the best planes, then shoot you down while you are trying to take off. That's worse than vulching, IMO.

I guess my point is that it isn't just BnZ flyers that can be lamers.

Zip

XyZspineZyX
02-18-2004, 05:48 PM
Yay1 wrote (probably channeling SpecialEd on "Crankyankers" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If a guy has extra 15-20 min to climb to 5-7k altitude that doesn't nessesary mean he has any skill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you've never gotten 'all the way' to 5,000 and learned that it doesn't take 15 minutes to get there in most planes....

and additionally, it takes even less skill to stay down at 1,000 and get bounced again and again like a rube, even while knowing someone else is smarter than you and getting alt before he goes looking for trouble.

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Ah, the "gamer" arguments.... well, that explains your viewpoint.

The fact is, it's a simulation. The real pilots, almost to a man, TRIED not to die while they dealt death to the enemy. So, a simulation fan will realize that the goal of flying is to get your mission accomplished and LIVE to TELL about it. If you play the sim in an intellectually honest way, instead of with a mouthful of beer and pretzels, and a what-the-heck attitude (itself an easier cover for lacking skill than admitting you could learn and get better) you'd already realize that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Stiglr.. When your right your right! And on this one you are so right! I am honestly beside myself that someone of Gib's caliber.. Who clearly loves the sim as much as he clearly does would have such a noob take on it.. If I didnt know it was Gib I wouls sware this was a post from a guy who just bought the sim last week and the week before was in an Unreal or Quake tournment.

ASH at S-MART
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XyZspineZyX
02-18-2004, 05:49 PM
Go easy on Gib; I think he's just baiting a hook with this one....

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Go easy on Gib; I think he's just baiting a hook with this one....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>God I hope so! Maybe someone hacked into his computer at his new job? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ASH at S-MART
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nickdanger3
02-18-2004, 05:51 PM
Gibbage, the beauty of Slammin's server is the AI planes. If people won't let you take off, just spawn a B-17 and let your friendly automatic gunners clear up some airspace - BUWAHAHAHAHAHA !

As for me, I find the majority of the BnZer's online to be the superior pilots - they understand their planes and e-management better than, um, well to be honest.... me.

I'll keep jumping in those LA-7's while I get better and better to give me a snowball's chance. Soon though, the day'll come when I'll "move up" and have to learn a plane that requires some more finesse.

Recon_609IAP
02-18-2004, 05:53 PM
Maybe he should take this energy and make us a bomber.

Course - what fun would a bomber be in this fighter jock game?

S!
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Henkie_
02-18-2004, 05:54 PM
Same like BnZ is easy flying, to defend against BnZ is not so difficult. Because BnZ needs surprise to work. So if there is no surprise, it don't work so good.

BnZ work good against rookies that point the nose up and up and up and up to the BnZ-er until the rookies speed is -15. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Then he is an easy target for the BnZ-ers wingy that can blow that rookie away. And they can go look for the next rookie. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

cu http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EAF274_Henkie

Hunter82
02-18-2004, 05:55 PM
baiting....dude he's casted and hooked and threw back half of em cause they didn't meet the size limit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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ZG77_Nagual
02-18-2004, 05:55 PM
I was on the other night against this chap in a k4. He gained a huge amount of alt then would attack at very high speeds and break off so as not to lose speed or alt which is okay but - he was like five minutes between passes and no real threat because he really couldn't hit you unless you were standing still. The danger was getting bored. If you went to a lower alt he would simply stay away for fear of someone getting above him. Now I personally fight alot in the vertical - but I get a kick out of keeping it right on the edge - so it is not boring for me - or for whoever I'm flying against. I try to use all the strengths of my plane in a balanced way - so in a p39 I might turn more - particularly against a single opponent - but I will generally break off and go vertical when I feel I'm losing to much e and let the other guy bleed energy in his turn. In the dora it's more of a bnz fight - but not purely - the dora turns great and with anything fast and you can grab alot of snap-shots without losing too much e. However - climbing a couple thousand meters above your opponents - constantly - and totally avoiding any sort of skilled flying is just silly. Our lives are not on the line here - this is a game.

In short, I mix tactics - I know I can turn fight - timing a mixed fight perfectly is more interesting - but boring everyone to death by staying safe developes neither skill nor fun.

pilots who fly dogmatic and sloppy bnz do seem to be copping out - what's the fun in five minutes between high speed passes? In the fight above I finally just returned to my base and landed - I mean why bother?

Recon_609IAP
02-18-2004, 05:56 PM
"Who clearly loves the sim as much as he clearly does would have such a noob take on it.. "

keyword you use: sim

you in the minority here bud. I agree with you, but you will get outnumbered http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I remember first learning to land. IL2 was my first flying sim. Wow, I was horrible - but what I would give to have those memories back!

Coming in steady, reading my gauges, adjusting for the landing, etc.. I would hit hard, or come in too slow and drop a wing - it was a thrill really.

I enjoyed and still enjoy the sim parts of IL2, and really don't care too much about the gaming parts.

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem
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jeroen-79
02-18-2004, 06:09 PM
Tactics are never invalid when they result in victory.

People who choose the "hard" TnB and complain that those who choose the "easy" BnZ play "unfair" are just unwilling to accept that they are not skilled enough in TnB to defeat BnZ.

Learn, don't complain.

Now, what about those cowards with 30 mm cannons?
Don't .303 MGs require much more skill than explosive shells?

Not to mention those flying in pairs.
It's not fair.

ucanfly
02-18-2004, 06:10 PM
Of course BNZ is a valid tactic. BUt I feel your pain , Gib when it comes to "vulching" BNZrs. I can't remember the server, but every freeking time I took off and still low on E I would be descended on by a pair (or three) of BNZrs in my P_47 who were orbiting high above the airfield. They were from a squad that shall remian nameless, but sound strangely familiar. GReat fun for them. That's why I started playing more servers without enemy icons. But the invisidots still drive me nuts at times.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASH_SMART:
So.. driving home for 1 1/2 hours is not our idea of fun! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But seriosly Gib.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. This is the most stupid thing I ever heard. I drive that long because #1, its a new job, #2, it pays VERY well, and #3, I will be moving soon to solv the problem. I NEVER said it was "fun" and in fact I said it was killing my brain cells! So I guess you missed that part.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
your all wet on this! If you want to pit a P47 againts a I153 in a turn fight.. be my guest! If that is what is fun to you.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. I was on my squad server a wile back. I took up a Brewster for fun. I shot down two P-47's (flown by Aristo) and a 109 G and a Zero. THAT was fun. Taking a P.11 C up in a 1944-45 server is FUN. Chasing down a Luftrunner is not. And you cant brake off from him because you know he will turn back and come after you again, but this time with an advantage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But you have to understand.. Not everyone here enjoys what you enjoy! Some like to invest the time and tatics.. and that is fun to them.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. They have fun in there own way. Some people have fun cheating in FPS games like CS using aim-bots and wall hacks. My POINT is that takes NO SKILL WHAT SO EVER. Same with B&Z. It takes NO skill, and its NO fun to fight against. I think you missed the hole point of my post

[/QUOTE]others like your self need that constant input and action like a pin ball machine with all the lights blinking and stuff.. And that is fine too! I and many other just dont like that kind of Air Quake of game

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg [/QUOTE]

I consider a dogfight a test of man and machine. A test of skill and inteligance and knolege. You need to know what you and your aircraft is capable of, and know your enemy. NONE of that stuff matters when you dive down, hose an un-suspecting enemy, and run like a scared gerble when you fail. The B&Z'ers would not even give me a fighting chance with a 3 on 1 numerical superiority!!! Thats not only skill-less, but honorless. Like I said, AGAIN, VEF and COOP is COMPLEATLY differant to Dogfight missions like Slammin.

Slammin_
02-18-2004, 06:14 PM
When I get some free time I'll remedy some of the situation by adding additional bases to the maps. I normally only have one base per team and this is by design. I too am sometimes pressed for time and would like to kill as many of you as possible in 30 minutes or less http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and the single base per team makes for some very quick action! There is no hunting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I do ask that pilots fly with honor but from what Gib is describing, three punks were basically base camping, exploiting map design, exploiting other players by using B&Z with a plane well designed for it, disregarding honor, and had I been around, they would be banned.

I don't really mind early T&B engagements after taking off and look forward to them, regardless of what I'm flying, but anyone with any sense of honor or fair play, (remember, we are playing here) would not do what those guys were doing - VULCHING!

And yes, I drive my FW into the mix on a regular basis. Realistic? No. Fun? Hell Yeah! but I hate to hit refly before taking at least 2 or 3 with me!

Again, I make no claims to offer a realistic WWII server environment. My objective is to offer the ultimate killing ground where even a blind man can get a kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'll re-do all the maps this weekend, but I will say this:

B&Z requires no skill! lol j/k

It just requires less skill than T&B http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Slam

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 06:14 PM
How can you "learn" when you CANT gain the advantage or even fair footing in the situation I described?

P.S. Its a lot harder to godfight then it is to run away from a fight. Thats simple fact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:
Tactics are never invalid when they result in victory.

People who choose the "hard" TnB and complain that those who choose the "easy" BnZ play "unfair" are just unwilling to accept that they are not skilled enough in TnB to defeat BnZ.

Learn, don't complain.

Now, what about those cowards with 30 mm cannons?
Don't .303 MGs require much more skill than explosive shells?

Not to mention those flying in pairs.
It's not fair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aztek_Eagle
02-18-2004, 06:15 PM
zoom and boom, it is valid, i dont realy expect some one to dog fight me when i am in a i15s, knowing when to dogfight and when to zoom and boom, is aswell a skill, knowing ur chances against enemy plane, is skill aswell, so if u just can get the germans because u cant keep up wiht them, tray to fly higher than them, and dont go blindly to an enemy when he has alt advantage

jeroen-79
02-18-2004, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ucanfly:
Of course BNZ is a valid tactic. BUt I feel your pain , Gib when it comes to "vulching" BNZrs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nothing wrong with vulching either.

If your team can't be bothered by putting up some fighter cover to protect teammates taking off then the other side is free to strafe the airfield at will.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 06:21 PM
Good to hear from you! I wish you were online I would of had you come in. Oddly they were base camping the only map with multiple bases. ITs just they were so high it did not matter what base you took off from. They were on you if you even though of climbinb! I also dont mind having a few buzzereds by my airbase. ITs a bit of a challange and typically it wont last for long since typically a LOT of people spawn in and they cant kill them all. Besides its fun when you can kill a few buzzereds just after takeoff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its great taunting material!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
When I get some free time I'll remedy some of the situation by adding additional bases to the maps. I normally only have one base per team and this is by design. I too am sometimes pressed for time and would like to kill as many of you as possible in 30 minutes or less http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and the single base per team makes for some very quick action! There is no hunting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I do ask that pilots fly with honor but from what Gib is describing, three punks were basically base camping, exploiting map design, exploiting other players by using B&Z with a plane well designed for it, disregarding honor, and had I been around, they would be banned.

I don't really mind early T&B engagements after taking off and look forward to them, regardless of what I'm flying, but anyone with any sense of honor or fair play, (remember, we are playing here) would not do what those guys were doing - VULCHING!

And yes, I drive my FW into the mix on a regular basis. Realistic? No. Fun? Hell Yeah! but I hate to hit refly before taking at least 2 or 3 with me!

Again, I make no claims to offer a realistic WWII server environment. My objective is to offer the ultimate killing ground where even a blind man can get a kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'll re-do all the maps this weekend, but I will say this:

B&Z requires no skill! lol j/k

It just requires less skill than T&B http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Slam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BaldieJr
02-18-2004, 06:22 PM
BnZ is only for people who use the low-res. cheat.

Real Aces loop.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Steaky_361st
02-18-2004, 06:25 PM
As a B&Z Junkie in my Jug and Pony...I have to comment that B&Z actually does require skill. I mean its not easy lining up yur guns on low level planes shredding around in circles when yur diving on them @ 800 kph...plus figuring when is the lowest altitude possible to pull out of the dive. It requires planning and precision.

Needless to say, I have read many tales of World War II pilots (Helmut Lipferts Diary and "Missions Remembered")...and in basically all of these stories there are comments on how altitude and speed were everything when it came to Dogfighting, and these pilots always sought this advantage.


-----------------------------------------------
Steaks
Cpt 375thFS
"And you thought the meat last night was tough..."

jeroen-79
02-18-2004, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
How can you "learn" when you CANT gain the advantage or even fair footing in the situation I described?

P.S. Its a lot harder to godfight then it is to run away from a fight. Thats simple fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Study the enemy's tactics.
What elements makes them so succesful?
And how can you counter these elements?

Keep looking around so you won't be surprised.
Get wingmen.
Make yourself a hard target so the enemy's passes have no effect.
Jink.
Reduce the period in which the enemy can fire.
Force the enemy to turn.
Break into the enemy when he is close.
Get good at snapshots.
Have more patience than your opponent.
After a few unseccesfull passes they may be lured into a turning fight.
Don't chase the enemy.
Don't get lured into a climbing contest.
Fight the enemy on your terms, not his.
Fly the 262. :P

EPP-Gibbs
02-18-2004, 06:26 PM
It's perfectly valid to B&Z. Each to their own. The thing to do, if you don't want to be bounced, is to develop a good anti-B&Z defense.

The first thing to say is that against a squad of B&Z'ers....you're more or less dead anyway, but 1v1 you can do something about it.

First..see him coming. Grab some speed in a shallow dive, turn gently in his direction to give him a difficult angle and a steeper dive. As he comes in pull up towards him and just as he's coming in range pull a barrel roll to evade his burst and try to roll out in the direction, (in terms of the horizontal, or compass heading), that he's travelling. He will have dived past and now be below. If you get it right he'll present you with a shot at his 6 as he pulls into his zoom climb.

It takes a bit of practice to get right. Timing and SA are of the essence, but when you do get it right....it feels so good to bang a few rounds in knowing that he's thinking "WTF!!! How did that happen!!"

It's a move used a lot in a much much older WW2 fighter sim called Air Attack

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

ucanfly
02-18-2004, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ucanfly:
Of course BNZ is a valid tactic. BUt I feel your pain , Gib when it comes to "vulching" BNZrs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nothing wrong with vulching either.

If your team can't be bothered by putting up some fighter cover to protect teammates taking off then the other side is free to strafe the airfield at will.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



THis is a fun scenario:

DEad tired after work and dinner and long commute (not as long as Gib's though). Fire up HL and fly off in a new P-47 D. Get engine started , - Boom! OK get on chat before I takeoff, any body give me cover. No response. OK get out and back in then select plane in another spot then - Boom. OK I will not taxi this time just gun it. JUst manage to take off - adjust mirrors then I see a couple above me . Got to turn around . Survive one pass , but lose my E at low alt and get shot down. Repeat.

That's my recipe for a headache.

Sure these are valid real world tactics. But this is a game and squads who pad their score artificially by continuously attacking an adversary while still on takeoff run is not good "gamesmanship" although it is "warmanship". I can tell the difference of character in gamers by things such as these, and so can others.

Hey I didn't complain when I was online. I simply said salute and eventually went to another server.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 06:26 PM
Hay Slammin? Do you consider me RAMMING an enemy aircraft that is taking off or taxing to be Vulching? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have been known to do that when I get fustrated with someone. No shots fired, just plow into them.

Maple_Tiger
02-18-2004, 06:30 PM
Gibbage man what the?

I mainly fly the P-47 and P-51. Do you realy think i am going to even consider turnfighing?

Yes i BnZ.... when i have altitude advantage. When i dont have altitude advantage i extend pick up lots of speed and pull a quick Melumun and come back.

You cant turn fight in a P-47 and win lol. Shure the P-51 can turn, but it still cant turn fight against alot of aircaft. Usualy when you enegage in a turn fight in P-51 your dead or soon will be.

Do you realy expect people to turn fight in planes decined for engery fighting?

Yes it takes skill to BnZ or even energy fight. You have do everything just about perfect or your dead.


Here is a test for ya,

Take a P-47D27 and go into Slammins server and try to even just get one kill. Have fun trying. Most kills i have had in the D27 so far in one flight is 5 and yes i made it back to base and no not all kills where made by just BnZ, some i had to use energy tactics just to survive.

I have flown the P-39 quit a bit when i first bought the game. Then i got board of turning and burning. D27 is way way way harder to lurn then the P-39. Only other plane that is just as hard to lurn or master for me is the FW190.

1st Lut. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Steaky_361st
02-18-2004, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
I do ask that pilots fly with honor but from what Gib is describing, three punks were basically base camping, exploiting map design, exploiting other players by using B&Z with a plane well designed for it, disregarding honor, and had I been around, they would be banned.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no!!!!! They were using a plane in its most fitting role...B&Z....AHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Its just sounds like yur sayin its a dishonorable crime to use this tactic....

Anyway...Gibbage never told us how long the pilots waited on attacking taking off a/c's, just that they would attack the enemy planes "sometime after departure"....hmmmmm

At 5000m overhead even in a P51 i find it difficult getting down to below 1500m without having to pull out of the dive with risks of collapsing due to speed.... This makes me think that either these initial figures were faulty (in which case i should shut up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ), or that the pilots allowed substantial time for the taking off A/C to gain a fair amount of altitude before engaging.

This post was not meant as a flame, and i hope no one takes it in that way....Im just sayin...

Oh and didnt Churchill say "The great defense against the air menace is to attack the enemy's aircraft as near as possible to their point of departure"? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know taht could be considered vulching...but i just wanted to throw that in http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-----------------------------------------------
Steaks
Cpt 375thFS
"And you thought the meat last night was tough..."

Slammin_
02-18-2004, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Hay Slammin? Do you consider me RAMMING an enemy aircraft that is taking off or taxing to be Vulching? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have been known to do that when I get fustrated with someone. No shots fired, just plow into them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Haha! Well, I hate to admit it, but I have actually encouraged ramming B-17's because they piss me off so much sometimes. I don't think I'd call kamekazi vulching since it is a one shot deal, and probably almost as big a stress reliever as the A9 cannons :-)

lbhskier37
02-18-2004, 06:40 PM
The few times I fly in a open cockpit server and things like campers happen, I will hop in a JU87D with a buddy and fly around low waiting for them. These kinda guys usually like to get really close before they fire, prime targets for gunners, the P51s are especially easy to kill an engine.

As for BnZ in general, patience and planning are as skill just as much as yanking on your joystick as hard as you can.

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"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be." Adolf Galland

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
02-18-2004, 06:41 PM
190s rules the skys !

i remember a guy called "loki" or "leki" (not shure) flying an A5 in the time of the good old IL-2 Sturmovik on the Greatergreen. He was an real ace i noticed what power is in this bird and lerned to fly it.

After the Patch 1.11 (FB), the one the 190 lerned to walk i feel myself in heaven everytime i fly this bird....

wow i'm a bit Off-Topic...who cares... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

@Fight-Tactics

I think it realy depends on the plane you are flying and the planeset on the server, if you are on a 44 FullReal server with Antons,Doras,G10,G14, Mustangs and Targets then you can dogfight in close combat style (quite a lot of fun) but try to Turnfight in an A9 an LA7 or P39, the only way to handle them is flying with a lot more brain than the opponent is using (or at least trying to do so) if you do this than you will see that BnZ or Energytactics are the only way to handle certain plains.

Pilots who wait over an airfield and wait for starting planes shouldn't play this game.
If those guys get bored than i say go and attack some ground targets, and get your A** shortend by upcoming F8ts from JaBo-HH!

[This message was edited by ToP_BlackSheep on Wed February 18 2004 at 05:58 PM.]

BM357_Raven
02-18-2004, 06:42 PM
My troop is trying to raise money to save the Anaconda from extinction.

$10/ea. please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://theimaginaryworld.com/lin49.jpg

_____________________________
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Slammin_
02-18-2004, 06:43 PM
I think a lot of you have either misunderstood Gibs original complaint, or are reading more into it than is there. The way I read it is a simple case of vulching. The fact that the vulchers were using P-51's and B&Z tactics, take the art of vulching to a whole new low.

C_FA
02-18-2004, 06:50 PM
The most effective weapon I`ve found against base campers is to have one player stay behind then at the right moment respawn with a Pe-8 and 5000 lbs.
of (I`m going to get some today!) !NUKE CITY!
end of the campers!!!


!

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
02-18-2004, 06:54 PM
hmm well ok for Vulching:

just take about 4 M16 AA-Tanks and 4 standard 25mm AA-Guns around the airfield.

just this way "-" &gt; 25mm, "=" &gt; M16 "|" &gt; Taxiway "||" Runway..

_........=
..........
..|.||.|.......= &lt;
=.|.||.|........ &lt; Respawn Point
..|.||.|......._ &lt;
..|.||.|..
-.|.||.|.=
..|.||.|...._
..........
...._.....

or something like this, believe me if there is enough AA-Fire they won't Vulch, and if they do they will get beatn:

bahh in this window (for writing) the "Airfield" i "painted" is not that ugly.....

FI-Aflak
02-18-2004, 07:08 PM
gib, I love your wok and you raise valid points. What you are protesting, however, is called vulching.

I fly a mix of both, though I really enjoy piloting the P-47 thunderbolt. You can't furball in that aircraft. I zoom, I boom, and I zoom.

It is the only way to survive in a jug. I know what its like from the furball side of things (My squadmate likes to set up P-40E, B-239, P-11c and TB-3 servers. Quite fun!) and believe me, turnfighting requires more snap decisions, more reflexes, but given the nature of the aircraft you fly you aren't dead the moment the other guy gets an E-advantage. Energy tactics require much more strategy, tactics, whatnot, but the actual attack is pretty routine, a straight, fast past with some aiming in there. Its getting in position to make that pass that is difficult.


I understand where your gripe comes from, but those stangs were not boom-zooming, they were vulching you in all but name.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 07:10 PM
They dont fall for that anymore. Besides, your team-mates tend to get pissed at that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_FA:
The most effective weapon I`ve found against base campers is to have one player stay behind then at the right moment respawn with a Pe-8 and 5000 lbs.
of (I`m going to get some today!) !NUKE CITY!
end of the campers!!!


!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BfHeFwMe
02-18-2004, 07:12 PM
Am I missing something here? How is it they shot you all up if they never come down from 5000. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 07:15 PM
No. The vulching was an example of B&Z tactics. I hate people who B&Z on DF servers in general. Because they wont play on a level playing field and run like girls when in a fair fight. They are a waist of my time and generally annoy the HE11 outa me. Thats what this post is about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FI-Aflak:
gib, I love your wok and you raise valid points. What you are protesting, however, is called vulching.

I fly a mix of both, though I really enjoy piloting the P-47 thunderbolt. You can't furball in that aircraft. I zoom, I boom, and I zoom.

It is the only way to survive in a jug. I know what its like from the furball side of things (My squadmate likes to set up P-40E, B-239, P-11c and TB-3 servers. Quite fun!) and believe me, turnfighting requires more snap decisions, more reflexes, but given the nature of the aircraft you fly you aren't dead the moment the other guy gets an E-advantage. Energy tactics require much more strategy, tactics, whatnot, but the actual attack is pretty routine, a straight, fast past with some aiming in there. Its getting in position to make that pass that is difficult.


I understand where your gripe comes from, but those stangs were not boom-zooming, they were vulching you in all but name.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jeroen-79
02-18-2004, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToP_BlackSheep:
hmm well ok for Vulching:

just take about 4 M16 AA-Tanks and 4 standard 25mm AA-Guns around the airfield.
...
or something like this, believe me if there is enough AA-Fire they won't Vulch, and if they do they will get beatn:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is a wonderful and historically accurate solution.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Am I missing something here? How is it they shot you all up if they never come down from 5000. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Long convergence?

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 07:48 PM
I have shot people at 3000+ meters with the P-39's 37MM. Im guessings with a higher ROF and greater dispursion that a bunch of 50's could in therie hit something at 5000M given the proper conditions. But I dont think IL2's net code tracks bulletes for more then 1500M but they do track cannon round till they land somewere.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToP_BlackSheep:
hmm well ok for Vulching:

just take about 4 M16 AA-Tanks and 4 standard 25mm AA-Guns around the airfield.
...
or something like this, believe me if there is enough AA-Fire they won't Vulch, and if they do they will get beatn:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is a wonderful and historically accurate solution.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Am I missing something here? How is it they shot you all up if they never come down from 5000. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Long convergence?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BM357_Raven
02-18-2004, 07:52 PM
The guy who has the highest k/d ratio, is the guy who impresses me the most..And I can say, wow that guy has a lot of kills that's good too.

All these cats got it right:

CrazyIvan
Zen
Recon
LZ
Ash
Pentallian
and a few others...

Where's Georgeo's site? The 'thinking' and 'bloodlust' pilots really hits it.. The difference is that the majority of the people that are disagreeing with Gib are, in my mind, more like warrior poet-types in this game (ok, ok a little over the top raven--again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif).

But these boyz play the science and the art together to become masters of their trade. They dont just join up in a circle jerk frenzy.. They think and maneuver, and look, and wait..And prey upon weak minded blood lust individuals.. When they finally run up against a pilot as cunning as they are, the scrap is on and the gloves come off... These guys are, imo, some of the best pilots on the net.

Which pilot is the most skilled gib? It's not the BnZ or the T&B... The most skilled and well rounded pilot is the pilot who can perform both and can manage both. He knows when to employ one tactic over the other.. This is the master pilot... The one with street smarts and a .454 cassul for back up in case things get ugly.

S~

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RedDeth
02-18-2004, 07:55 PM
first off what got you the most mad gibbage was taking off and immediately getting jumped. thats a variation of vulching and takes no skill. its cheesy and most good squads dont do it. we wont put up with it in our servers.

now as for b and z. if your getting hit on take off its not really b and z because they can only get back up to 2500 meters. easy meat for any LA7s or yaks that you have as wingmen.

b and z pilots at least the good ones need to know full c.e.m. procedures if they fly 109s which is much more difficult than jumping in a yak and spinning on the deck and firing. it takes skill to b and z and not get killed.

t and b you just yank the stick as hard as you can in multiple directions and if your good you learn the patented fish flop manuever which looks like a leaf falling from a tree.

a great pilot will always use b and z. in his LA7 or yak or 109 etc and turn only when he needs to. but turn well when he does.
i dont complain about turny burny planes down low. i dont mind them.

you are missing the main point of b and z gibbage. the b and z planes all meet up at 6 to 8 k high and t and b each other up there then the survivors go b and z any low planes. most servers with great pilots have all the pilots meet at 7 k and fight up there every plane they have. with the oddball low fight.

b and z pilots require much more skill because we t and b at 7 to 8 k high where planes stall out MUCH easier. so your whole theory of it being tuff and good to turn low is hogwash. b and z ers are the best t and b ers . we do it up high. same thing as you down low.
any plane i fly i b and z with it. if im in an I16 rata i take that sucker up to 5000 meters and b and z in straight shots and if someone gets up to me i turn with em then.

your rant hopefully is against vulchers. otherwise it doesnt make any sense at all.

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Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 08:01 PM
I will contenue this in about two hours. I need to drive home. UGH!!!

J30Vader
02-18-2004, 08:04 PM
Just where is a BnZ plane to do it then?
And define fair? You need a server where everyone flies the same plane.

Tell ya what. You take a P-51. I will take a Ki-84 or a Zero. After the merge, we start turning. We stay at 200 meters.

You can't run away using your superior speed. That, according to you, would be girlish. So you have to turn fight. After you are killed ten or twenty times, tell me how much fun that was.

You whine because people won't play the way you want to. A waste of your time? Your problem, no one elses.

The squad in which I used to fly in is like you. "Whaaa, the Ponys and T-Bolts et al won't turn fight me in my Yak-3 La-7."

After showing them what a P-47 or 190 can do, some of them have had a change of heart.

A waste of your time? It is waste of time to fly the way you want. At least for a BnZer.

I play the game for my enjoyment. Not anyone elses. If I am ever fortunate enough to see you on a server, I will boom you, then zoom away.

Learn to counter the tactic instead. Or you could go to a server I once saw on ubi that booted people for BnZing.

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 08:06 PM
LOL! This is funny. Your squad never lets anyone get to your level! If someone IS at your level, you fly away and a climb! Every time I find an AFJ, he is 5000M above me with two others diving down on people. I remember getting a bunch of my own squad mates in to defend against this base camping and the AFJ's would not let us get up to an even altitude to "T&B" as you say people do at 7-8000M. YOU NEVER allow a fight to turn into a T&B because when we DID get even altitude, your squad RAN! THATS what I hate!!!! Thats the key point to this hole thread. B&Z'ers run! Its not about tactics, but fear of loosing a virtual life. I will explain a bit more when I am home and have more time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

b and z pilots require much more skill because we t and b at 7 to 8 k high where planes stall out MUCH easier. so your whole theory of it being tuff and good to turn low is hogwash. b and z ers are the best t and b ers . we do it up high. same thing as you down low.
any plane i fly i b and z with it. if im in an I16 rata i take that sucker up to 5000 meters and b and z in straight shots and if someone gets up to me i turn with em then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

StellarRat
02-18-2004, 08:08 PM
B and Z is way easier on most servers than it should be. Try turning off icons and see what happens. It's really hard to B and Z someone without making a positive ID first unless you know for sure where all your teammates are and that won't happen on a big server like Slammin because there isn't much teamwork.

RedDeth
02-18-2004, 08:15 PM
so your saying me mantis mastiff evol etc will keep you low then if you get up to us we run like little girls? from you? ah. yes i see now.

someone hid your blue pills today methinks....hehe

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BM357_Raven
02-18-2004, 08:20 PM
I gotta word for the vulchers...I'll defend them, whoever they were..

Now Chuck Yeager downed a 262 that was going in for a landing.. Dont be calling any disrespect to my man Chuck now.. He brought the war one plane closer to an end. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif And it was a kill, I dont care how you look at it...

Ok, now:

A few weeks ago, we were in one of troll's scripted missions and it left the LW with one base, but gave them the Me262.

(This required some strategizing which is something that you Gib are probably a little dulled by. That's ok. Not everyone is into strategy just like some guys eventually get bored of doing the same ole scrapping over and over and over...)

But in a scripted server there is a route(s) to victory. Sometimes you must do things that are not particularly conventional to the map or within the context of any conflict, for that matter, that will achieve you a victory; total war.

A scripted server, is a little like a war. Smaller battles link together to paint an entire picture.. It's a thinking man's game.

In a single mission, the objective should be to win the map.. I think.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif, least that seems like what we are trying to do.. So with that objective in mind, I was concerned in winning the war (last map of the series) by tilting the odds in our favor even more... The Art of War maybe..

Ok, so, I make it to their base and the AAA's roaring all over my sorry tail.. I manage to dislodge half of their AAA or better before I get taken down by FLAK. Whammmo! (Is my strategy out yet?)

It takes me several attempts to get over to their base again because several 262's have made it to the sky by now and one or two keep BnZ-ing me before I can get there. This boy is getting jumped!

Finally, I am halfway there, and I got these invisiplanes all over me (roaring past me, forcing a pucker inside a pucker) and I'm break turning and gettin' freaky and trying to throw 'em off like the mean ole mattadore i am,

And now I am doing pretty well on the final run in my P-51 (that rhymed) against their base. Guess what I am trying to do? That's right, I am trying to dislodge more AAA and strafe the field to keep the other 262's off the Allies backs... No wingman anywhere, sux, but I'm on comms trying to vector people to the base to help me...but they're getting dropped by some other 262 they can't quite make out... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are already two in the sky, and they are diving on me trying to pick me off as I am vulching the guys on the ground.. The scene is really hot and I know the 262 who is trying to kill me is really on the edge, cause he knows I'm a vulcher now, and I am brutalizing their numbers...Man do I deserve a beating at this point...and I know it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif..

And the guy on the ground is telling me I must have a short pencil for being such a vulcher..And I'm yelling back that he needs to just throttle up those engines a little faster, cause it'll waste less of my time...

...and thinking to myself how this would really get on my nerves if I were at that base right now, but I am playing to win... Finally, I get wiped out by the 262 jock ... and whoom..crash...The story went something like that, anyhow.

So this is a case where I am playing the vulcher. But let's think about the strategy being used. What if three or four more 262's get off the ground? That's right the ____ hits the fan..

So, the way troll had the mission set up, it only made sense to HIT THE BASE and keep 'em pinned down to win the map.. And I played it like a game of chess..witha little slam dunk at the end http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif/..

In the meantime, the LW was playing the game the best they could. Using BnZ on me, and just totally out-classing me wherever they could. When they saw what I was doing they moved in to defend their base and help their mates--as they should have; STRATEGY.

Oh, and the initial preventative measure was the AAA. If you dont have AAA at your base then what is there to keep you protected? If you dont fly as a team, then who is gonna protect cover you?

Every game has a strategy. Football, baseball, soccer, chess, rummy, tick-tac-toe. The more advanced the game, the deeper the strategizing involved an the more of a thinking-man's game it becomes.

Even in tic-tac-toe, you try to fool your opponent into making a wrong move. Even though we all know the game, we still play it the same way. But how boring is that? Eventually, you learn the game and it's always the same and no one wins... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And it *is* Bull to vulch the way I was doing in the straight sense of the activity, but if you if you think about it in the context of the win, then it is totally logical.

Stop to read the Art of War, or how about Karl Von Clausewitz's Principles of War... anyone know who he was? He was the man! Here check this out: Clausewitz (http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/PrincWar/Princwr1.htm)a little light reading, hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

The art of war is in part about using what you have and what is provided you in the arena to outwit and outfight your opponent.

So that's the dynamic that is at play in the higher levels of FB.. This game allows you to use your mind.. And that's what makes it so deep. Use your mind.. Take it to a deeper level.

Now if you were to say to me there is no honor in vulching you know what I would say? "I agree; none--zilcho!"

Now put me in a WWI era DF, and I would want to role play that era a bit more and practice a kind of chivalry.. Even though I think that it was kinda ridiculous..I still get it on some level..

But, when I exercise honor is when the server puts a game up that says "No Vulching." Then I honor the rules and dont vulch. When the server says "No BnZ" I must honor the server's rules or leave the game.

Course, I wouldn't hang around in a server very long that says "No BnZ" any more than I would hang out in one that says "No TnB." That would just be ridiculous.

Play the game to win. If they are beating you, then figure out how to counter it. Or otherwise host your own game that say "TnB Only." And any honorable person would obide or stay out.. I know I would http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif..

A lot of these guys are coming from a different area than you Gib.. I just dont think the clarity is there for ya in terms of what prompts this kind of mindset. You dont understand the motivation for this style or class of pilot, so you dont understand they beauty of it.

These guys are strategists or thinkers or people who are trying to achieve a kind of perfection in aerial combat..

AND, Most of them CAN TnB just as well as the next guy. They may not have the plane for it or they might not enjoy the consistency a total TnB-er might enjoy to be 'practiced' enough, but they got it in 'em..trust me they do..

First you have to meet them at their own game. Then you must outwit them to fall into your style of battle. If you say "BORING!" Then you simply a different bread of pilot. Not better or worse,--just your outlook on FB is totally different because you probably see the game as a race for kills.. What's that game at amusement parks where you have to bash the little monkeys on the heads as they pop up? That's how some of these guys view the constant repetition of turn-turn-turn. Now if you are in a turning plane, let's say like a P-40... Then you are dumb to try to outrun a 109.. Instead, just like the manual reads, you want to try to slow the 109 down and get it to commit to a turning fight where you can work on reeling it in..

A lot of them head for the scripted servers or for co-ops, or for scenerio's that exercise the mind as much as their cunning.

Oh and btw.. If you wanna scrap it out with me in a TnB... I would be glad to do so. Pick the plane. I dont really care. I fly anything from a He-111 to a P-47 to a 109 to a yak3 against ya. Hell I'll even fly a P-39 if you wanna challenge a BnZ-er to a TnB, I'd be happy to send a little education your way. I wont even practice.. You pick the plane, and come get me.. Oh yeah, one thing.. you mind flying FR?

-Raven

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Steaky_361st
02-18-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
The fact that the vulchers were using P-51's and B&Z tactics, take the art of vulching to a whole new low.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How does the plane and tactics "take the art of vulching to a whole new low...?"

Once again...no flame intended...just wondering....

-----------------------------------------------
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ZG77_Nagual
02-18-2004, 08:27 PM
that's how afj has allways flown Gib - same as in janes - they flew the p47 - which outclimbed and out endured every other plane in the simm - and bnz'd you. To win against them you just got into another p47 and forced them to turn. Since there is no mission to bring them down they can just loiter up there and make everyone miserable. I learned alot from those guys - as a group they were weak at dogfighting - though several of them were outstanding in all dimensions. I fly a mixed fight - though I favor the energy fight - I'm not as dogmatic about it as they generally were - and maybe still are. The high alt modeling in this simm is a little weak and I'm not all that fond of 109s but high alt dogfighting can be fun. Planes are better matched in this one that janes. Lately I've been on about the dora - which is a great bnzer - but I like to see what it can do turning too - had a great time with a yak3 the other night - when it's 1v1 I take lots of risks. Ta152 will be the ultimate high alt fighter in this game. It's fun a couple of times to fight against dogmatic bnzers - basically you set your convergence way out there and nip away at em if you don't have the patience to go off in some corner and climb. But afterwhile it's not that much fun - it's not a huge skill game really when you keep that much space between you and the opponent. The low guy dodges and tries for a shot, the high guy keeps his energy and makes passes. It's mostly about endurance. It can be a nice break, and a good way to rack up kills on a busy server if that's what your into, but really It only get's interesting when you cut it a little closer.

You just have to be prepared to spend half and hour climbing. AAA is the solution to vulchers.

JG7_Rall
02-18-2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>B and Z is way easier on most servers than it should be. Try turning off icons and see what happens. It's really hard to B and Z someone without making a positive ID first unless you know for sure where all your teammates are and that won't happen on a big server like Slammin because there isn't much teamwork.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and because of icons, its "way easier" to avoid a BnZ. Works both ways buddy.

Oh yeah, getting back to the original post.

First off Gib, I would like to say I love your work and what I'm gonna say isn't intended to insult you.

People who generally TnB are the ones who always change aircraft from patch to patch, because "this planes rollrate" or "this planes turning radius" got fixed. They really don't know how to use an aircrafts strenths if those strengths don't lie in the turning department. I, for example, fly the P47 and the FW 190 Dora almost exclusevly. Now, according to what you say, in order for me to have fun and "have skill" I need to learn to TnB with these fighters...WTF!!?! I mean c'mon Gib, it takes A LOT more skill learning to use your planes strengths, and I'm sorry if your view of extending/climbing after a boom n zoom is cowardly but it isn't. It's simply using what your plane is good at. There's a difference between flying what is good, and flying what you love. When you do the latter of the two, you need to know what your plane is good at and what it can't do, just like you need to know what you can and can't do in real life. It doesn't mean that I lack skill just because I'm smart and don't dogfight at treetop level.

Regards,

Hutch

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JG27_Aristo
02-18-2004, 08:44 PM
I ownz Aristo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

V!
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WUAF_Badsight
02-18-2004, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
b and z pilots require much more skill because we t and b at 7 to 8 k high where planes stall out MUCH easier. so your whole theory of it being tuff and good to turn low is hogwash. b and z ers are the best t and b ers . we do it up high. same thing as you down low. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


what a load of crap

up at high alt you dont get knife fighting like you do down low

high alt turning fights are NOWHERE near as difficult or dangerous as LOW ALT turn fights

the people who suck at turn fighting go high where its less dangerous & less easy to get jumped

high alt flying is for the chickens

BnZ is not hard

TnB is skillfull ............... whats is so skillfull about jumping a person then running away ?

the ONLY thing thats skillfull about BnZ is in the deflection shooting

oh wait ......... the TnB fighters do deflection shooting as well

RedDeth
02-18-2004, 09:11 PM
hey we can all get in yaks and turn fight on the deck. we have no problem with that. weve done it this round in fightersweeps. but can you fly high in a 109 without dying ten out of ten times? we can do both. most pilots that complain about b and z cant fly up high at all. planes get too wallowy and sloshy up high and too DIFFICULT to turn for the deck fighters.
we prove ourselves in competition tournaments down low and up high. this thread is full of trash talking. lets see the statistics to back it all up.
im not afraid of flying a yak on the deck.

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Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:14 PM
Just an observation. Every time I found an AFJ online, he is up high, and runs from a fair fight. I have yet to fight one on even ground.

I remember one time you and a few others were base camping in P-47's on an air-start server! How low is that? I spawn in, and 3 of you were diving down on me!!! I got a few JG27 friends on the server and chased you guys away from our spawn point and then you guys started crying about US base camping when all we did was fallow you back to your base.

Also, this from a squad who takes pride in there ability to run from a fight!!! Even one on one! In your thread to Crash you were saying "Nobody can catch me! I run all the time, and you were the only one who could catch me! You must be cheating". Ya. That says a LOT about your flying skills. Nuff said.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
so your saying me mantis mastiff evol etc will keep you low then if you get up to us we run like little girls? from you? ah. yes i see now.

someone hid your blue pills today methinks....hehe

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WUAF_Badsight
02-18-2004, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well for 1, I dont turn-n-burn. I fight. I twist, turn, Split-S, and do every combat manuver in the book and NOT run like a little girl when things turn south. I also employ teamwork, but I dont huver over people taking pot shots. The 3 P-51's would not let anyone climb to give them a fair fight, and I personally dont want to waist 10-20 minutes of my time taking off from a distant base and climbinb just to fight these few ****** alone. I did try that, as soon as they saw what I was doing, they all came after me. And they are the ones who suggested me take off from another base!!

I dont know about you, but I play this game to have fun. I join Slammin's server to have fun. I dont consider flying AWAY from fights and climbing for 30 mins to be fun at all. Its boring! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


well using BnZ with wingmen is a VERY effective tactic

i play for combat so i dont mind AT ALL if im shot at or if im shot down

as for being bounced ....... DEAL WITH IT

it happens & will never stop

if you only expect to kill & not get dominated back at some time or another then your playing the wrong game

for a bunch of guys to effectivly dominate a certian altitude requires discipline ..... it is its own form of DogFighting

thats right ... ITS A FORM OF DOGFIGHTING

when you are in a better turning plane than the opposition OF COURSE you want the bandits to turn with you

fighting against planes that are ; .........

1) FASTER

2) HIGHER

3) USING E BETTER

4) MAINTAING DISTANCE FROM YOU

is ALL a part of FB

finally ....... IF YOU DONT WANT TO GET SHOT AT , OR SHOTDOWN , THEN PLAY :

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004

RedDeth
02-18-2004, 09:15 PM
hey this is cool gibbage. sounds like a good squad scrimmage brewing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif im up for it! Salute!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-18-2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pentallion:

do you lack the skill to fight a BnZer?
THAT is where the skill lies. To be able to gain a BnZ advantage and exploit it when possible AND to be able to still compete when the other person has the BnZ advantage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is true

biggs222
02-18-2004, 09:19 PM
id like to say thank you gib for starting one of the funniest threads ive read in a long time...

you come in all in a huff (surprise surprise)and start complaining about a DF server. which is funny just within itself.

then u complain about the way someone is flying their plane. because u kept getting downed.

then you tell us that this tactic shouldnt be used in DF servers and that theres no skill involed etc, LOL!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif lol and then u tell u what is and isnt "fun" when flying... it just keeps getting better and better.

i thought getting older ment getting more mature...gib for once u actually proved me wrong on something http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

u should have asked for a box of kleenex for ur birthday! lol

DangerForward
02-18-2004, 09:22 PM
So wait, Gibbage models what looks to be one of the best vulching planes in the game...the P38....

Irony, karma?

Now AFJ throw him a bone next time you see him online, he did a lot of work for us... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DangerForward

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:22 PM
To be honest, I posted this thread for PURE entertainment reasons. I wanted to see how hot people got defending there girly ways of fighting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Its so far been a lot of fun!! 6 pages in a short time must be a reccord of some sort. I think the only way to sturr up more huff is to post a topic like "the 109 was out-dated in 1939" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Lol. Im glad you could enjoy it.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by biggs222:
id like to say thank you gib for starting one of the funniest threads ive read in a long time...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:27 PM
Just an FYI for everyone. I dont care how you fly in Coop, full real, or VEF. Im just saying its cheap and skilless to come to a DOGFIGHT server and not DOGFIGHT.

B&Z is just lame when you are on a cockpit-off with external and icons server. Its that simple. Its skilless and honorless and its just not fun to fight people that run away like a 14 year old boy fleeing NEverland Ranch.

Thats all I am saying. When your on a server like Slammin, BE A MAN!!! Fight with honor, and you will get my respect. Go to Greater Green for your B&Z pleasure were it actually takes skill to pull it off.

Gib

RedDeth
02-18-2004, 09:28 PM
regardless of gibbages views on b and z. he sure does do great work at making planes for fb and for that im grateful!

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

biggs222
02-18-2004, 09:33 PM
lol sounds like ur not really joking to me, I still catching a hint of bitterness http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

oh and just for the record im here purely as an observer, and i have fun flying both ways. I am a spit fan after all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
next time u want to pretend like u dont care leave that part out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I wanted to see how hot people got defending there girly ways of fighting
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh this is great too.."Fight with honor, and you will get my respect."

yeah cause we fly FB souley to gain UR respect.
ur too much gib http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:35 PM
People who make guns are not evil. People who use guns to kill people in cold blood are.

Just because you make a weapon that CAN be used in such a way does not make you obligated to use it in that way. I like mud-moving. I take loaded P-47's up all the time on Slammin's server! But I dont bomb player aircraft. Only the parked aircraft!!! Also places like Greater Green have valid targets like tanks and vehicles you can use the P-38 on.

I dont know about you, but there is more then 1 thing to use bombs and rockets on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DangerForward:
So wait, Gibbage models what looks to be one of the best vulching planes in the game...the P38....

Irony, karma?

Now AFJ throw him a bone next time you see him online, he did a lot of work for us... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DangerForward<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:36 PM
Got any more corrections for my rivit pattern or did I miss a panel line? Maybe I mis-placed a bolt in the undercarrage wheel well? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by biggs222:
lol sounds like ur not really joking to me, I still catching a hint of bitterness http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

oh and just for the record im here purely as an observer, and i have _fun_ flying both ways. I am a spit fan after all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
next time u want to pretend like u dont care leave that part out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I wanted to see how hot people got defending there girly ways of fighting
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

biggs222
02-18-2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Got any more corrections for my rivit pattern or did I miss a panel line? Maybe I mis-placed a bolt in the undercarrage wheel well? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no actaully Captain Flushgarden did a very nice job of making ur mkIX look respectable.

but since U brought it up, u are missing the upper identification light behind the Aerial mast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MC_Cudden
02-18-2004, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well for 1, I dont turn-n-burn. I fight. I twist, turn, Split-S, and do every combat manuver in the book and NOT run like a little girl when things turn south. I also employ teamwork, but I dont huver over people taking pot shots. The 3 P-51's would not let anyone climb to give them a fair fight, and I personally dont want to waist 10-20 minutes of my time taking off from a distant base and climbinb just to fight these few ****** alone. I did try that, as soon as they saw what I was doing, they all came after me. And they are the ones who suggested me take off from another base!!

I dont know about you, but I play this game to have fun. I join Slammin's server to have fun. I dont consider flying AWAY from fights and climbing for 30 mins to be fun at all. Its boring!

Also, what part of diving down on people, and running away involves skill? I have watched these people fight. I have even tried it myself. Its boring, and you dont get many kills. I have watched "professional's" B&Z and MAYBE net 2-3 kills in 15 mins. I get 4-5 kills in 3 minutes in fair fights. Plus when I B&Z, I feel so dirty. Like I need to clean the slime off. I also feel like I instantly grew a vergina when I run from a fair fight and that I should be selling cookies door-2-door in a dress instead of fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B&z is the smarter tactic. Good B6zoomers can make about 10 kills and more without or seldom die.

And the plane is importend. Shall i fight t&b in a 109g,k,190d,a or p47 against a yak or La7 or other russian plane in 100m high ?? I think not if i am smart.

That makes maybe fun, but is absolutly nonsens and wrong tactic.

And voilla, a new b&zoomer is born .-)

B&z is not easyer then t&b, but its saver. B&zoomer like to go home after their kills and
dont like to die after they shoot down a plane.

A T&burner will received maybe more kills. But he will die very often.

And that exactly is the point.

The KILL Ratio and not only the kill is importend for b&zoomers

Because a kill is nothing worth if you die after your kill.

That is the reason, why people and me fly b&z tactic.
Because the b&zoomers try to fight with the proper and best ww2 tactic.

T&b was the ww1 tactic but it was seldom in ww2.

Its maybe true that t&b makes more fun for you.
Its ok, then fly your t&b and we b&zoomers have more fun with our tactic.

And if only 50% of all players fly and fight like they had only one life, then our game would be much more realistic.


But most people have no sence to survive, they go not home with damage planes and fighting with big black smoke behind their planes.
They take no altuide and flying in 100m high to enemy base to fight.

They T&b with the wrong plane in 500m high against russian planes ecp.ecp

The most fights in this game are in an altuide from 100-1000m. Thats absolutly nonsens.
That is the ww1 high for fights but not for ww2.

Not the game is unrealistic, no, the way the most people fight makes the game unrealistic and arcadish.

[This message was edited by MC_Cudden on Wed February 18 2004 at 09:08 PM.]

Gibbage1
02-18-2004, 09:51 PM
Lol. Cant fix it. Not enough polygons. Not many aircraft even have lights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Since I cant model it, that would be a texture thing. FlushGardens department http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by biggs222:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Got any more corrections for my rivit pattern or did I miss a panel line? Maybe I mis-placed a bolt in the undercarrage wheel well? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no actaully Captain Flushgarden did a very nice job of making ur mkIX look respectable.

but since U brought it up, u are missing the upper identification light behind the Aerial mast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

biggs222
02-18-2004, 09:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Lol. Cant fix it. Not enough polygons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh well, its a minor mistake to say the least.

since i got ur attention just wonder what u did about the 50cal port thing? im anxious to see what it finally looks like. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
My POINT is that takes NO SKILL WHAT SO EVER. Same with B&Z. It takes NO skill, and its NO fun to fight against. I think you missed the hole point of my post<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>On the contrary! I am one of the few that picked up on your point.. Even though you tried to hide it and or tie it in with vultching and or team work. Therefore my original statement stands.. You are ignorant of BnZ tactics, in that is the only way you could make such a foolish NO SKILL statement! Stick to WWF Wrestling! Boxing does not suit you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-18-2004, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:

well using BnZ with wingmen is a VERY effective tactic

i play for combat so i dont mind AT ALL if im shot at or if im shot down

as for being bounced ....... DEAL WITH IT

it happens & will never stop

if you only expect to kill & not get dominated back at some time or another then your playing the wrong game

for a bunch of guys to effectivly dominate a certian altitude requires discipline ..... it is its own form of DogFighting

thats right ... ITS A FORM OF DOGFIGHTING

when you are in a better turning plane than the opposition OF COURSE you want the bandits to turn with you

fighting against planes that are ; .........

1) FASTER

2) HIGHER

3) USING E BETTER

4) MAINTAING DISTANCE FROM YOU

is ALL a part of FB

finally ....... IF YOU DONT WANT TO GET SHOT AT , OR SHOTDOWN , THEN PLAY :

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



yes Badsight ...... i agree : )

Korolov
02-18-2004, 10:42 PM
I think what Gibbage REALLY needs to do is quit flying on cockpit off servers.

Mate, you're going to be extremely disappointed TnBing with the P-38. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

RicknZ
02-18-2004, 10:50 PM
Hi everyone my name is Belrick

I cannot fly very well since i dont have much time nerd out in front of a box in a darkened room so i amolst exclusively BnZ.
This gets me more kills than deaths so in the end im happy.

If your not, tuff.

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sun February 22 2004 at 01:07 AM.]

ASH at S-MART
02-18-2004, 11:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Just an FYI for everyone. I dont care how you fly in Coop, full real, or VEF. Im just saying its cheap and skilless to come to a DOGFIGHT server and not DOGFIGHT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, good, glad to here you dont care, because it is clear that the folks in the know dont care even if you did! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But.. sense you brought it up.. What is it about a P47 and ZERO that changes when your in a DF arena vs. a COOP? Does the P47 turn better in a DF than a COOP? Does a ZERO turn worse in a DF than a COOP? Thus negating the need to consider the aircraft strong and weak ponits? That is to say, does the FM change so it is safe for me to TnB with a ZERO in my P47 in a DF server?

I think the answer is no! Therefore the tatics should and shall remain the same in both... Unless you dont care about getting shot down.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
B&Z is just lame when you are on a cockpit-off with external and icons server. Its that simple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah changing the rules as we go huh? Dosnt really mater.. All tatics are *lame* in a server with cockpits-off and externals and icons servers IMHO! Therefore singling out BnZ is meaningless!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Its skilless and honorless and its just not fun to fight people that run away like a 14 year old boy fleeing NEverland Ranch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And some consider Quake like flying where you fight till your shot down to be silly... Just because you had a bad day and want to get in a quickie.. Dont blame people that apply real world tatics that take time and skill for not letting you shoot them down

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Thats all I am saying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And given another day or so you will say some more.. and even later more.. hopfully if you hang in there you will realise how wrong you are about your ORGINAL BASIC POINT about BnZ not requiring skill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
When your on a server like Slammin, BE A MAN!!! Fight with honor, and you will get my respect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>BE A MAN! LOL! Ah.. everyone is so brave when the bullets are not real! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Go to Greater Green for your B&Z pleasure were it actually takes skill to pull it off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There you go.. starting to come around, that is a good sign!! I knew you could do it.. but your not there yet.. Ill ask again.. What is it about a P47 that changes when your in "slammin's" server and "greatergreens"? Does the P47 become a better TnB thus enabling me to ignor the realistic limtations of the aircraft? I think the answer is STILL NO! Therefore, you are sugesting I should take a P47 into a TnB fight with a ZERO on the DF servers to... How did you put it? to BE A MAN AND EARN YOUR RESECT? Thanks but no thanks! And thank god you dont have some power over all the DF servers.. Because if you did there would only be one aircraft allowed.. the I153 and everyone would be taking off at the same base and shooting everything that moved... Sounds like a FFA Quake arena.. Which is not to imply there is anything wrong with that!! Just that some of us dont care for it! Some, like you do.. So, enjoy!

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

[This message was edited by ASH_SMART on Wed February 18 2004 at 10:18 PM.]

Pentallion
02-18-2004, 11:43 PM
This is a strange, strange thread!

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

RedDeth
02-18-2004, 11:45 PM
ww2 pilots have stated the p38 could outturn zeroes. the late model p38s. which were getting one of. the p38 should be able to t and b just as good as a yak if in the hands of an ace pilot.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-19-2004, 12:01 AM
well yes &no

its initial roll is terrible

its 180 turn time isnt that great either

the P-38 with full flaps down has an excellent sustained turn

so if all you do is turn in one direction long enough the P-38 will slowly catch your Zero & beat it in a long turn

Maple_Tiger
02-19-2004, 12:14 AM
Hey Gibbage1,

is the P-47 a turn and burn plane?

do you turn and burn in it?


So if your in a Zero and im in a P-47 then to ern your respect i have to turn fight with you?

Im confused.

1st Lut. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Cajun76
02-19-2004, 12:27 AM
I think the point is being missed, very badly. I've flown both ways, as a La-5FN/La-7 jock and a P-47 driver. It gets so old saying either TnB sucks and has no skills, and BnZ has no skills. Rediculous.

The factor is when, on a server like Slammins, a plane with 3km alt on you dives down on your newly flying P-47, misses, and climbs back up to 3km, over, and over, and over. What skill is he using? It's a freaking P-47. Are they afraid it's going to outclimb them? Or whip around and get on thier 6 after a pass?

The same goes for guys who pull the stick back to their gut at all times, always at blackout and stall speed.

Energy fighting is neither BnZ or TnB, but a combination of both, keeping your ride in it's best performance envelope. Some here just want to 'lol' and dismiss this, you're contributing nothing. You don't need 5 km of alt to be successful. You don't need a I-153 to be successful.

I've dealt with guys like Gib is mentioning, it sucks. Yet it takes skills to BnZ. But air vulching from an untouchable postion is weak, especially in groups. I've also seen the reverse, a roiling, twisting cloud of Yak 3's on comms. Bad juju, and not nessecarily skillful. You'd also be suprised how many BnZers become TnBers when behind a P-47.

So, to conclude. Both tactics have their place. A combination is even better. Somebody who is airvulching newly flying planes with no speed from 5000m on a server like Slammin's are clearly making up for a lack of something. So is the Yak who only makes horizontal turns. Neither knows how to use their ride to best advantage. Learn your ride, learn about energy. Altitude is not the 'be all, end all', neither is being able to turn in a flat circle. Use your altitude for speed, and yoyo with that circle, and you'll find they are both skillfull tactics that can be used equally effectively.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Realfire_02.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

MatuDa_
02-19-2004, 12:42 AM
When I fly online I will not give the opponent any edge on purpose so if I am higher than him and in a less maneuverable plane I never give up my alt advantage. That would be just plain stupid. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

If you love tnb and hate bnz, get CRIMSON SKIES. Very good game, excellent multiplayer fun and nothing to do with bnz. Leave simmers alone.

Arms1
02-19-2004, 03:34 AM
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.



valid tactic on any server unless the host's rules state "no booming and no zooming" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Rajvosa
02-19-2004, 03:49 AM
And then we start all over...

http://stu.wccnet.org/~ecrnovrs/inp150/finalp/sarajevo1/images/sarajevo.jpg

Arms1
02-19-2004, 03:51 AM
Korolov


posted 18-02-04 21:42
I think what Gibbage REALLY needs to do is quit flying on cockpit off servers.

Mate, you're going to be extremely disappointed TnBing with the P-38.



i agree, why waste all that beautiful cockpit work

Slush69
02-19-2004, 03:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
OK. Here is the question of a life-time. Is B&Z a valid tactic IN THIS GAME online, or an excuse for lack of skill? My openion is the latter.

Here is why. To me, it takes very little skill to dive down, get your shots off, and then run away like a girl scout selling cookies on skid-row. It takes a LOT of skill to fight "in the furball" and survive. Thats how I fly. I find the biggest mass of swirling aluminum, and join in the fray! I typically can get 4 kills and fly my happy butt home.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is by far the dumbest thread of the day. Of course B&Z is a "valid" tactic. If you can't hack it then learn to fly. Don't be a crybaby just because everyone doesn't just do as you want and let you shoot them down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

J30Vader
02-19-2004, 06:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:

Thats all I am saying. When your on a server like Slammin, BE A MAN!!! Fight with honor, and you will get my respect.

Gib<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BE A MAN!!! Stop whining and you get my respect.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-19-2004, 06:19 AM
Hi,

What a load of cobblers...another attempt to demean non-allied a/c.

Any tactic that utilises the aircraft to best effect is the one to use, regardless of anything else.

Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

Bull-Dog.
02-19-2004, 06:53 AM
I get killed more often that i Kill. I have no problem with this, as long as I can learn from the experience. I feel that each time I enter a fight i am gaining experience, which will one day make me a better pilot. But what can I learn from a cannon shot i never saw comming? what can i learn from watching someone disappear into the distance, if im still alive? NOT MUCH.
Ive tried using this tactic with success (As Gib says its not hard) but it gave me no satisfaction just points.

I also have been chased away from servers by constantly being chased and eventualy killed by a squad of 2,3 0r 4. Once is fair game, but it never stops at that.
How does anyone get past the cannon fodder stage in this game without resorting to hit and run, or joining a squad (gang).
I think that squads should fight against squads and stay away from DF servers.

for somone as experienced as Gib to make such comments there must be something wrong.

Still trying http://mysite.freeserve.com/bull_dog/images/1-picture1.jpg?0.9261296277898643 Still dying

Aaron_GT
02-19-2004, 07:17 AM
BnZ is a valid dogfighting tactic, Gibbage.
Dogfighting doesn't necessarily mean TnB.
It takes a lot of patience and situation
awareness (more than I have at least) to
set up BnZ passes against a maneouvering
target. You have to constantly monitor the
target, the situation, conserve your energy
to gain altitude again, etc., plus you need
good gunnery to cope with the brief time on
target.

You could say that not TnBing is a sign of
cowardice, but in real life people tried to
avoid getting killed, so trying to avoid
getting shot down online in the sim seems
valid enough too.

For my part I find that my gunnery and last
minute maneouver skills aren't up to getting
a good firing solution on anything smaller
than a bomber when making high speed passes,
except for the occasional time I get lucky.
So much as I try to BnZ initially, I always
seem to get frustrated and end up in a TnB,
then get low and slow and get shot down. I
get quite a sense of achievement when I do get
the BnZ correct, though.

Online BnZ is problematic for planes that
don't have one-pass cannon kill capability.
In real life an aircraft fairly well damaged
by a brace of .50s would be fairly likely to
break off the attack, but online people will
carry on going until the plane blows up. That's
a hard thing to fix in the simulation without
giving people electric shocks every time they
get shot down or something.

Franzen
02-19-2004, 08:17 AM
I think the B&Z tactic is valid and difficult to master, at least for me. There's a d@mn engine blocking my view. But I don't think it's cool for 3 vulchers to hover over your field and kill you constantly. It's happened to me many times and it really ruins my day when I can't play. It's not very sportsman like. It is just a game. I will zoom players while they are taking off but never shoot until I know they at least have a fighting chance.

Fritz Franzen

ZG77_Nagual
02-19-2004, 08:35 AM
It's balancing tactics and fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I like both - but all technique is just tools in the kit - what works depends on the total situation. I find people who dogmatically and unskillfully stick with a tactic that keeps them safe - in a game - a bit aggravating - but it's no big deal. I do prefer the more strategic fight overall however.

AND - just to be clear - AFJ owed their victories in Janes to tactics - in part - and to exploiting the scoring system. They would jump in to the tourney right at the end, fly about 11 missions, often against known easy opponents - have no losses and beat people who'd flown say 65 missions with two losses - this is because the scoring system favored zero losses over missions flown by a huge margin. Afterthe last round the scoring system was changed - had it been implemented at that time guess who would have come in first http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway - this is what bred resentment. In the last couple competitions I never lost a fight if I was in a p47 - but you cannot make the argument that exploiting the scoring system equals skill at flying. Which is not to slam afj in this realm - alot of them were quite good, and they had good quality control and organization across the board. Some of my best dogfights were with Rhinox and some of the other guys back in the day.

On the P38 - it would ride the stall better than just about any plane - and roll VERY quickly if you chopped throttle on the roll side - we'll need dual throttles for that trick. I doubt it would outturn a zero much below 250knots - above that quite probably.

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Thu February 19 2004 at 07:44 AM.]

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Thu February 19 2004 at 07:53 AM.]

jurinko
02-19-2004, 08:52 AM
well, I read that Erich Hartmann attacked just unaware planes and if they knew about him, he preferred to fly away rather then to start turning or exposing himself to any excessive danger. Gig, you´re saying he had no skill?

Btw, your experience with &gt;lamers&lt; in P-51s, that was no BnZ but pure vulching. BnZ means that you are flying in 5,000m and suddenly - darkness.. obviously somebody was not too lazy and climbed to 6,500m http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and please, don´t complain if Fw190 pilots rather extend/dive away instead to turn with let´s say P39.. the superior speed used for runaway is just the same proper tactics as if I-153 under attack starts turning..

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

ZG77_Nagual
02-19-2004, 08:57 AM
Some of the German aces had a strange attitude toward getting kills. They seemed to regard themselves more like sportsman - and they were given wide freedom to focus purely on getting kills - almost exempted from the slarger strategic situation in order to cultivate celebrity status. Against opponents limited by mission to focusing on getting other jobs done they had a decided tactical advantage. - Not allways but I think it accounts for alot.

AFJ_Skyghost
02-19-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Nagual:
AND - just to be clear - AFJ owed their victories in Janes to tactics - in part - and to exploiting the scoring system. They would jump in to the tourney right at the end, fly about 11 missions, often against known easy opponents - have no losses and beat people who'd flown say 65 missions with two losses - this is because the scoring system favored zero losses over missions flown by a huge margin. Afterthe last round the scoring system was changed - had it been implemented at that time guess who would have come in first http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway - this is what bred resentment. In the last couple competitions I never lost a fight if I was in a p47 - but you cannot make the argument that exploiting the scoring system equals skill at flying. Which is not to slam afj in this realm - alot of them were quite good, and they had good quality control and organization across the board. Some of my best dogfights were with Rhinox and some of the other guys back in the day.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Nagual, good friend, glad to see you at least here on Ubiforuns, unfortunally I never see you on HL, I would love some nasty dogfights with you, remembering good old days http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
maybe when I get my Spit back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

About the AFJ record in Janes AOW, I m affraid you're a bit wrong old chap.
As far as I remember that exploit of the scoring system was used by some whom I won t mention here, but not the AFJ.
As far as I remember the AFJ pilots alwya had problems to find who to fight with, getting in 90% of the match invitasions the most diferent kind of refuses.
Please check our web page at http://fighterjocks.net/stats/statsmain.htm
where you can check all the results of the AOW the AFJ fought.

Also go to www.alloutwar.com/il2fs (http://www.alloutwar.com/il2fs)

Check the competition stats of the present round, the first of this competition we join.
We have a winning percentage of 80% of the matches we fought. And we are also the squad with more matches fought of all the involved squadrons. Our problems is to find who to fight with, we never refuse a match when we are invited for.

Salute my Friend ( and that is with capital F ) and I hope to see you soon on the HL skies

ZG77_Nagual
02-19-2004, 10:26 AM
Granted - I was a bit of a noob in aow - only participating in two - but I'm an eyewitness http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Though it was only a couple of pilots who did this - I saw it happen - consistently and allways in the last week.

I ran into the - 'don't want to fight thing' - and also the - 'fight with me I want you to beat afj' thing - the whole thing got kinda weird there towards the end. Frankly I came in on the bad blood a little late to know what it was really all about - so I respectfully bow out on the issue. Truth be told if personal impressions are strictly adhered to - I really saw no problem.

I don't know why I launched on the subject in the first place - this is a completely different time - and a very different simm - much more complex. On the plus I'll say I never found an AFJ pilot less graceful in defeat than in victory. It was interesting - AFJ was more or less the bnz squad, and 663 was known as great turnfighters - some great adrenalin rushes with those guys.

I will say this - cockpit off is WAY easier than cockpit on - even with externals enabled. I flew this way the other night and was simply amazed - I felt like my guns were radar guided. It is just a much, much better gunsight.
Wow! I see aow has been sort of resurrected. Cool. I'll give some thought to the cockpit off thing - I dunno though - my dora just wouldn't be the same without it's difficult gunsight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif S! Sky

PS- I'm getting a P63!!

Cdn.401GATOR
02-19-2004, 10:32 AM
Gibbage Im getting tired of people complaining about the B&Z as not a valid tactic..

So you got your *** handed to you in the Slammin server.. I think we all been there before..

Those guys in the P-51 were flying textbook tactics.. For all the accusations you make about the supposed cowardice of bnzers you are exhibiting such hypocrisy in your "sore loserdness" whining..


I think the quote about "An Aerial Unreal Tournament" is fitting here. You don't seem to want to play a flight sim with all the tactics and strategies that go with it.


If you can't fly against whatever the enemy can field then leave the server, or get some patience, or get some teammates..

As lame as the bnzers supposedly are you don't see them here in this space *****ing about losing their energy and getting turned and burned by an A\C with better turn rate..

ZG77_Nagual
02-19-2004, 10:46 AM
It eats bandwidth for sure - but I sure like having some aaa http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

02-19-2004, 11:39 AM
I don`t see why it is unfair to fly high, pick a peasant below, smithe him mightily with the MK 108, and then climb back where the angels live, out of the sorrow of the underworld.

After all, I am God, am I not ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AFJ_Skyghost
02-19-2004, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm getting a P63!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are you miserable !"#$%&/ and you bloody !"#$%&/( but I have my connections too, yes sir I have.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I have already made some arrangements to get in your cockpit a certain monkey that will make you life miserable, heheheheh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif ( old ZG77 stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'LL GET MY REVEANGE http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Salute mate

JV44Rall
02-19-2004, 01:19 PM
Fehler's right.

I want my AEP. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Gibbage1
02-19-2004, 01:27 PM
One of the new features I modeled into the P-63 is a door lock! HA!!! Ya cant get in and monkey around without the keys! Of course you can always key the doors up and slash the tires.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Skyghost:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm getting a P63!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are you miserable !"#$%&/ and you bloody !"#$%&/( but I have my connections too, yes sir I have.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I have already made some arrangements to get in your cockpit a certain monkey that will make you life miserable, heheheheh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif ( old ZG77 stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'LL GET MY REVEANGE http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Salute mate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LilHorse
02-19-2004, 03:13 PM
Here, for the sake of argument: Gibbage is a better pilot than LilHorse. He has "tootally mahd skillz, dyude!"

There. Happy? Guess what? I don't care. I'd be more that happy to admit that someone is a better stick than me and never give them the opportunity to demostrate it. If I could bounce your a$$ every single time I'd do it. Afraid to die a virtual death? No. But as others have said I don't like it. I think you're afraid for your little TnB ego that you don't get to shoot down a whole bunch of planes in your UFO.

BnZ takes planning, discipline and though you don't like to admit it, skill. In short, you actually have to think to BnZ. Whereas you could train a monkey to yank and bank in this game (provided you give him a Yak-3 or La-5FN/ 7). And for those of us who like to employ this VERY VALID tactic (BnZ), we DO think it's fun. Too bad your short attention span doesn't allow you the opportunity to enjoy it as well.

And just what do you expect someone in a 109, 190, P-47, or P51 to do? Do the toilet swirly dance with you on the deck? PFFFTTT! "Oh, yah, dyude! I tootally shot down a dyude in a P-51 who was like crazy enough to turn with me in my 'Yahk Tray'. My skillz are soooo MAHD!" PFFFFTTT! again.

ASH at S-MART
02-19-2004, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Do the toilet swirly dance with you on the deck? PFFFTTT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ROTFL!

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

ucanfly
02-19-2004, 03:27 PM
Not liking BnZ is unamerican. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though we all know that the Allies owned the Japanese in WWII mainly because of BnZ with faster A/C as opposed to superior turning A/C. IN fact the primary tactic that made the P-38 successful in the pacific was BnZ. Hit and run tactics were especially successful. I remember a quote fom a P-38 pilot that stated when against an Ki-43 it was just about impossible to shoot him down once he sees you.

ZG77_Nagual
02-19-2004, 03:45 PM
Well Sky, I like it better when you're on my side - but if you insist on the Spit I shall have no choice but to fly an a4 or a5 - simply because the mighty P-63 will leave you foundering like a lemming in a rainbarrel while a doze at the controls, and I cannot abide the shape of 109s. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&lt;ps - we haven't seen the monkey since Rover mistook him for a box of crayons and mailed him to Farclas - though we have received several parcels of familiar looking droppings from somewhere East of Kashmir&gt;

purzel08
02-19-2004, 03:54 PM
What tactics would you suggest instead of BnZ when flying against russian planes in a LW plane ? Turning with the Las ? Ridiculous...I think BnZ and/or good team work is the only tactic to fight russian planes. By the way I think the most interesting dogfights online are between the 109/190 and the p51/p47 because they do not result in that stupid and boring "only low alt turning".

Greetings...

XyZspineZyX
02-19-2004, 04:18 PM
Basically, both methods are good in certain situations, and with certain planes. There is no one-size-fits-all-right-or-wrong judgment on either.

You do what produces the results and gets you home without lead in your arse.

The smart pilot realizes this.

I am "Mr. Boom and Zoom" if I'm in a 109. Put me in a Zero, though, and I'll juke, and break and loop and roll, and be certain to make you dizzy before you die.

In short, I use the strengths of the plane I'm in at the time.

Werre_Fsck
02-19-2004, 04:47 PM
Gibbage was drunk.

Probably got pwned one too many times in his shiny yaketi yak.

The Air-Quake servers are nothing, unless they offer the same planes for both sides.

Two fields, Yak3 and La7(overmodelled) against anything else means weighted dices. If you enjoy the La-7, icons, and Air-Quake, then of course properly conducted B&Z will get on your nerves. Suddenly you won't win just by yanking on the stick and randomly spraying bullets.

For these instant-gratification-zero-tactics-people there are games like COD, UT XMP etc, but I never suspected Gibbage to be one of them. In my books he was one of the good guys.

Must have been drunk, and now is too much in shame to admit it.

XyZspineZyX
02-19-2004, 04:53 PM
Fsck wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>unless they offer the same planes for both sides<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as silly and pointless, only for different reasons.

Same type planes didn't fight each other. (Yah, I'm sure there were some oddball incidents somewhere, but don't bother bringing it up; it's just the same "convenient logic" that says the Bi-1 is a "representative" East Front plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

Exploiting or dealing with the differences between contemporary planes is part of the subject. Air combat is not a 17th century duel with pistols at dawn, where everything is supposed to be equal.

Steaky_361st
02-19-2004, 05:59 PM
Ok all you B&Z whiners go get in a P47 or P51 and get in a low and slow furball with skilled pilots in Yaks and LAs...and then come back and tell me what happens http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know its a virtual world, but why die if you dont have to...its like i always do my best to protect my fellow Marines in Halo...not that Im permanently attached to them and i know that the world wont end if they die, but its nice to have them around...so why let them get killed (weak analogy i know... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

-----------------------------------------------
Steaks
Cpt 375th FS
"And you thought the meat last night was tough..."

RedDeth
02-19-2004, 07:51 PM
hi NAGUAL. there was never any bad blood with ZG77 and afj. i loved ZG77INJUN. funniest online pilot i ever met along with CLOWNKING 26AC.
p.s. afj flew aows in jugs but all of us flew spits too. we all practiced every day in spits against 663 in janes. me , nemesis, knothead, viper, regor, evol, skytoast, and more that i cant recall all flew spits along with the jugs. we were just so well coordinated in the jugs and those planes never get shot down that we got a rep as the jug squad. but we always b and z ed in spits too. in fm5 the spit could outclimb the jug. but not in fm4.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-19-2004, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:


well using BnZ with wingmen is a VERY effective tactic

i play for combat so i dont mind AT ALL if im shot at or if im shot down

as for being bounced ....... DEAL WITH IT

it happens & will never stop

if you only expect to kill & not get dominated back at some time or another then your playing the wrong game

for a bunch of guys to effectivly dominate a certian altitude requires discipline ..... it is its own form of DogFighting

thats right ... ITS A FORM OF DOGFIGHTING

when you are in a better turning plane than the opposition OF COURSE you want the bandits to turn with you

fighting against planes that are ; .........

1) FASTER

2) HIGHER

3) USING E BETTER

4) MAINTAING DISTANCE FROM YOU

is ALL a part of FB

finally ....... IF YOU DONT WANT TO GET SHOT AT , OR SHOTDOWN , THEN PLAY :

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES BADSIGHT ..............I AGREE

Slammin_
02-19-2004, 10:31 PM
brown noser!

Cajun76
02-19-2004, 11:11 PM
WUAF_Badsight, you shold know better than to listen to Badsight, it'll lead to no good. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Realfire_02.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

02-20-2004, 12:02 AM
I go for "invalid excuse".

Most people who think they're BnZing, don't know what a BnZ is. That goes as well with the other bunch of people who think "not BnZing" automatically means "TnB"ing.

pinche_bolillo
02-20-2004, 02:17 AM
what ever it takes to get the other guy and not let him get you is a great tactic. If I have to run over to the other guys house and unplug his computer to beat him then its a valid tactic!

carguy_
02-20-2004, 02:22 AM
Well,it`s true that someone 3000m above you will have a big advantage.Especially when that someone B&Zoomes you.But a n00b flying B&Z planes in which he seaks an easy kill will quickly give away the altitude and energy advantage.That is where this n00b tells himself - "man,B&Z planes are totally owned and totally helpless!Oleg you a$$hole,what did you do with B&Z fighters??!" - and then he changes to VVS which has a majority of T&B machines.

A classic n00b will use B&Z and pretty quickly resign from even trying to spot what is wrong with his tactics.So he picks a La7 and when he sees a B&Z plane behind he just yanks and pulls on the stick.Beauuutiful elipse is made and the n00b selfesteem is being dramaticly raised.

The way I see it,B&Z planes are disadvantaged in this game from the very start.In order to do some kills and return to base in one piece you need to discipline yourself every second.Otherwise you hand your a$$ to T&B buddies on a silver plate.
If one never did bother to take some effort to learn B&Z then he will never know what B&Z is.

I guess that`s how it is with you,Gibbage.Fly how you want but b!tching about anyone`s else`s flying just isn`t right.


Hey,hey,HEY!Whay are you turning!?That`s not fair!

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

AFJ_Skyghost
02-20-2004, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
...me , nemesis, knothead, viper, regor, evol, skytoast, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reddress, Reddress.... Whay you keep calling me Skytoast??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
I didn't want to do this but I will have to show to the world why we, inside the AFJ, call you Reddress....

Everybody, please go to http://members.accesstoledo.com/mastiff/AFJ/members/reddethmain.htm

There you will find Red on his way to his dayly work.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Cdn.401GATOR
02-20-2004, 03:52 PM
No wonder they call him Red Death.

Looks to kill that one has..

Definitely a two bagger..

GATOR OUT!

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 04:59 PM
Sorry Gibbage (and I respect your contributions to the community) but Slammin's server is not a DF server. It is specifically set up for bomber heads who want to fly heavies.

Now to have Wonder Woman fighter dweebs camping high in P51's or 190's or late war 109's is pathetic. It is not a true testiment to B n Z but to easy options designed to allow for non flyable bombers being used by fighter jocks.

Lock them into a cockpit and take away externals and they are useless. B n Z in this instance takes some real skill especially when a good pilot will incorporate verticle fight manouvers to complete the boom and then still have energy to zoom and come around for more.

Also for those who want to turn and burn with VVS late war jobs, try a late G6 109 and learn to use trim. You can mess it pretty well with La's and Yak3's if you know how to utilise the G6 but don't get trapped into a T n B fight for too long cause you ain't going to survive but for the initial few turns you can compete very well with em. Just remember to keep it close and use the vertical where possible, keep your radiators closed but don't abuse the engine unless you want to break the fight and extend verticle or you'll have no engine time left for your escape.

Me109 G6late/AS is a very capable aircraft and although dissed by many is capable of holding it's own.

Now Gib, if you want to be a real man, take a Il2-T up against some ships with 190's pounding your *** there and back. Will give you sweaty palms but remember, keep on the deck or they'll splice you open (-;

BTW could you encourage Oleg to get an Il10 into the mix. I want some uber ground pounder to fly and to be able to give my attackers a real shock.

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
No. The vulching was an example of B&Z tactics. I hate people who B&Z on DF servers in general. Because they wont play on a level playing field and run like girls when in a fair fight. They are a waist of my time and generally annoy the HE11 outa me. Thats what this post is about.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only one thing I can think to say here Gib PRI MADONNA! Get off your hobby horse, you talk about a challenge and then winge when you can't rise to it. Base being vulched, get over it and use a weapon that'll deal with the vulchers even if it means using "Noob" planes like to La7. Why not try taking to them in a 109K, you'll get to their height in no time flat and then pop em with that lovely 30mm. Being such a great pilot as you are, I'm sure you can evade a few zoom passes whilst climbing to take on your attackers.

Oh and BTW, please read over what you write, spelling and grammar seem really poor and it makes for hard reading.

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sun February 22 2004 at 01:36 AM.]

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 06:17 PM
Brother Raven has spoken to the congregation. Amen brother. Especially the end part (-;


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
I gotta word for the vulchers...I'll defend them, whoever they were..

Now Chuck Yeager downed a 262 that was going in for a landing.. Dont be calling any disrespect to my man Chuck now.. He brought the war one plane closer to an end. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif And it was a kill, I dont care how you look at it...

Ok, now:

A few weeks ago, we were in one of troll's scripted missions and it left the LW with one base, but gave them the Me262.

(This required some strategizing which is something that you Gib are probably a little dulled by. That's ok. Not everyone is into strategy just like some guys eventually get bored of doing the same ole scrapping over and over and over...)

But in a scripted server there is a route(s) to victory. Sometimes you must do things that are not particularly conventional to the map or within the context of any conflict, for that matter, that will achieve you a victory; total war.

A scripted server, is a little like a war. Smaller battles link together to paint an entire picture.. It's a thinking man's game.

In a single mission, the objective should be to win the map.. I think.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif, least that seems like what we are trying to do.. So with that objective in mind, I was concerned in winning the war (last map of the series) by tilting the odds in our favor even more... The Art of War maybe..

Ok, so, I make it to their base and the AAA's roaring all over my sorry tail.. I manage to dislodge half of their AAA or better before I get taken down by FLAK. Whammmo! (Is my strategy out yet?)

It takes me several attempts to get over to their base again because several 262's have made it to the sky by now and one or two keep BnZ-ing me before I can get there. This boy is getting jumped!

Finally, I am halfway there, and I got these invisiplanes all over me (roaring past me, forcing a pucker inside a pucker) and I'm break turning and gettin' freaky and trying to throw 'em off like the mean ole mattadore i am,

And now I am doing pretty well on the final run in my P-51 (that rhymed) against their base. Guess what I am trying to do? That's right, I am trying to dislodge more AAA and strafe the field to keep the other 262's off the Allies backs... No wingman anywhere, sux, but I'm on comms trying to vector people to the base to help me...but they're getting dropped by some other 262 they can't quite make out... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

There are already two in the sky, and they are diving on me trying to pick me off as I am vulching the guys on the ground.. The scene is really hot and I know the 262 who is trying to kill me is really on the edge, cause he knows I'm a vulcher now, and I am brutalizing their numbers...Man do I deserve a beating at this point...and I know it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif..

And the guy on the ground is telling me I must have a short pencil for being such a vulcher..And I'm yelling back that he needs to just throttle up those engines a little faster, cause it'll waste less of my time...

...and thinking to myself how this would really get on my nerves if I were at that base right now, but I am playing to win... Finally, I get wiped out by the 262 jock ... and whoom..crash...The story went something like that, anyhow.

So this is a case where I am playing the vulcher. But let's think about the strategy being used. What if three or four more 262's get off the ground? That's right the ____ hits the fan..

So, the way troll had the mission set up, it only made sense to HIT THE BASE and keep 'em pinned down to win the map.. And I played it like a game of chess..witha little slam dunk at the end http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif/..

In the meantime, the LW was playing the game the best they could. Using BnZ on me, and just totally out-classing me wherever they could. When they saw what I was doing they moved in to defend their base and help their mates--as they should have; STRATEGY.

Oh, and the initial preventative measure was the AAA. If you dont have AAA at your base then what is there to keep you protected? If you dont fly as a team, then who is gonna protect cover you?

Every game has a strategy. Football, baseball, soccer, chess, rummy, tick-tac-toe. The more advanced the game, the deeper the strategizing involved an the more of a thinking-man's game it becomes.

Even in tic-tac-toe, you try to fool your opponent into making a wrong move. Even though we all know the game, we still play it the same way. But how boring is that? Eventually, you learn the game and it's always the same and no one wins... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And it *is* Bull to vulch the way I was doing in the straight sense of the activity, but if you if you think about it in the context of the win, then it is totally logical.

Stop to read the Art of War, or how about Karl Von Clausewitz's Principles of War... anyone know who he was? He was the man! Here check this out: http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/PrincWar/Princwr1.htma little light reading, hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

The art of war is in part about using what you have and what is provided you in the arena to outwit and outfight your opponent.

So that's the dynamic that is at play in the higher levels of FB.. This game allows you to use your mind.. And that's what makes it so deep. Use your mind.. Take it to a deeper level.

Now if you were to say to me there is no honor in vulching you know what I would say? "I agree; none--zilcho!"

Now put me in a WWI era DF, and I would want to role play that era a bit more and practice a kind of chivalry.. Even though I think that it was kinda ridiculous..I still get it on some level..

But, when I exercise honor is when the server puts a game up that says "No Vulching." Then I honor the rules and dont vulch. When the server says "No BnZ" I must honor the server's rules or leave the game.

Course, I wouldn't hang around in a server very long that says "No BnZ" any more than I would hang out in one that says "No TnB." That would just be ridiculous.

Play the game to win. If they are beating you, then figure out how to counter it. Or otherwise host your own game that say "TnB Only." And any honorable person would obide or stay out.. I know I would http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif..

A lot of these guys are coming from a different area than you Gib.. I just dont think the clarity is there for ya in terms of what prompts this kind of mindset. You dont understand the motivation for this style or class of pilot, so you dont understand they beauty of it.

These guys are strategists or thinkers or people who are trying to achieve a kind of perfection in aerial combat..

AND, Most of them CAN TnB just as well as the next guy. They may not have the plane for it or they might not enjoy the consistency a total TnB-er might enjoy to be 'practiced' enough, but they got it in 'em..trust me they do..

First you have to meet them at their own game. Then you must outwit them to fall into your style of battle. If you say "BORING!" Then you simply a different bread of pilot. Not better or worse,--just your outlook on FB is totally different because you probably see the game as a race for kills.. What's that game at amusement parks where you have to bash the little monkeys on the heads as they pop up? That's how some of these guys view the constant repetition of turn-turn-turn. Now if you are in a turning plane, let's say like a P-40... Then you are dumb to try to outrun a 109.. Instead, just like the manual reads, you want to try to slow the 109 down and get it to commit to a turning fight where you can work on reeling it in..

A lot of them head for the scripted servers or for co-ops, or for scenerio's that exercise the mind as much as their cunning.

Oh and btw.. If you wanna scrap it out with me in a TnB... I would be glad to do so. Pick the plane. I dont really care. I fly anything from a He-111 to a P-47 to a 109 to a yak3 against ya. Hell I'll even fly a P-39 if you wanna challenge a BnZ-er to a TnB, I'd be happy to send a little education your way. I wont even practice.. You pick the plane, and come get me.. Oh yeah, one thing.. you mind flying FR?

-Raven
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage1
02-20-2004, 06:26 PM
Lol. You sure? Are you POSITIVE about that? I would ask Slammin before you speak for him. I have been playing his server for MONTHS and the addition of bombers was just recent due to people wanting them in. They were not originally in there. So to say Slammin made his server for buffs, and he originally did not have buffs? Can you see my point? Its a DF server with bomber options. Not a bomber server ith DF options. Greater Green is more of a mud-moover server then Slammin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77Hawk_9:
Sorry Gibbage (and I respect your contributions to the community) but Slammin's server is not a DF server. It is specifically set up for bomber heads who want to fly heavies..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:

BnZ is not hard

TnB is skillfull ............... whats is so skillfull about jumping a person then running away ?

the ONLY thing thats skillfull about BnZ is in the deflection shooting

oh wait ......... the TnB fighters do deflection shooting as well<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah much harder to get deflection in a turn fighter doing 250kph to 350kph pullin lead with 5 to 20kph speed difference than coming in at 650kph to 800kph in a slight curved rapid descent with anyware over 300kph speed differrential. Badsight, you must be a real hot shooter cause for me there is no way in hell zoom deflections are easier especially if the target is rapidly changing direction. Couple that with the 190's crappy sight and you have a real challenge. Requires as much if not more skill than pulling lead in a turn fight and walking your tracers onto your victim.

wayno7777
02-20-2004, 06:40 PM
Wow! Interesting. I wonder what Marseille or Galland would have to say about B&Z?

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann


http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-Hartmann3a.jpg

ajafoofoo
02-20-2004, 06:41 PM
I kind of agree with Gibbage.

BnZ is ok, but teaming up with 3 and climbing higher than everyone on the server in p51s is bordering on cowardly behaviour.

The p51 is one of the ultimate BnZ planes, high speed turn ability, and that nasty control surface/engine/pilot killing 50 cal spray.

It is so ridiculously easy to kill planes with the p51. These guys could have employed some of the p51's advantages like high speed turn and cover each other with team tactics. Instead they climb together for 5 min to make sure they don't have to fight anyone on equal grounds.

Sounds they don't have the skill or teamwork to actually mix it up on a level playing field so they resort to the rarely fail advantage that altitude gives you.

If you only ever engage people when you have an altitude advantage, that doesn't always mean you have great piloting skills. It only shows you like to spend the first 5 min of your flight climbing to get above everyone else. Nothing more.

I used to be a hardcore BnZ'er flying 109's, but after awhile found it boring. I now do a little of both. One flight I might BnZ. The next I'll join a furball (and get shot down some times).

I always have more fun and action dogfighting than I do climbing and diving,

IV_JG51_Prien
02-20-2004, 06:52 PM
I agree with Raven, that the situation dictates the tactics used in a fight.

In his example, if they had just let the 262's get off the ground at will, things would have gone bad in short notice.

I'm one of those pilots that flies to live. When I'm up in my 109 (especially if I'm alone) I fight on MY terms, and when I want to. Things don't always go my way however as I'm still a novice pilot. I'll wait for that perfect strike even if it means I only get 1 kill an hour.

TooCooL34
02-20-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I used to be a hardcore BnZ'er flying 109's, but after awhile found it boring. I now do a little of both. One flight I might BnZ. The next I'll join a furball (and get shot down some times).

I always have more fun and action dogfighting than I do climbing and diving,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They also do furball.
You just saw them at their BnZ day. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
There's no strict line between TnB and BnZ.



=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squad, South Korea

--Quick Spec--
WinXP Pro, AthlonXP 3200+, 1024DDR, FX5900XT 128MB, two SW pr2, TIR2

DONB3397
02-20-2004, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:
Wow! Interesting. I wonder what Marseille or Galland would have to say about B&Z?

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Galland would have said: "Whatever works." He watched Nowotny die when a P-51 B&Zd his crippled jet on final. And Marseille was, according to a book I read recently, a very good B&Z'r...because he could hit high angle deflection shots better than anyone else. Helmut Lipfert (203 kills) used B&Z every chance he had because of his belief that speed was the most critical element in combat. Kittel, when he began flying the 190, developed a kind of B&Z tactic for killing low flying IL-2s. He dove beneath them and fired up at their unprotected oil coolers...then, instead of zooming up, he would break and dive away just above the ground. When he began flying the Dora, he used a similar tactic against bombers.

I don't remember that Kittel (267 kills) or Lipfert were considered less than courageous. But then, that was RL, and this is FB.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCbCZNABQ3y1LZQo

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Lol. You sure? Are you POSITIVE about that? I would ask Slammin before you speak for him. I have been playing his server for MONTHS and the addition of bombers was just recent due to people wanting them in. They were not originally in there. So to say Slammin made his server for buffs, and he originally did not have buffs? Can you see my point? Its a DF server with bomber options. Not a bomber server ith DF options. Greater Green is more of a mud-moover server then Slammin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Difference between allowing conditions for B17's and PE's than mud moving Il2's and Stuka's but hey, if Slammin's was a server just for DF then I will stay away from it cause for DF I want more real conditions. The only realson I like to fly Slammin's is I hope to meet up with B17's and Slam'em (-;

Love flying a gunboat 109/190 (30mm wingpods with 400 or 500m convergence) and setting onto a group of B17's. Some people winge about gunners but I love it. Nothing more fun than peeling lazily down and popping off their wing whils side slipping the return gunner fire. Something about bombers, I can shoot them with more ease than fighters even though I'm being hosed by a number of ai gunners.

If the B17/B25/Pe2 and the like had cockpits and were flyable then I would stay away from the servers with Slammin's settings like no tomorrow cause there, in my eyes, would be no exscuse for external views and no cockpit. I also have a preference for limited icons but would prefere only same side close with callsign only, no distance or plane type but hey, that's me. You play how you like but please stop the b1tching

JG77Hawk_9
02-20-2004, 07:17 PM
ps must read over my postings cause I'm quite embarressed with the typo's I just wrote. )-:

And now over to you Stan..... Stan, you there buddy??? Oh, darn it, cut! Cut!

LuftLuver
02-20-2004, 07:37 PM
Here's another opinion on BnZ (http://veepers01.budlight.com/service/RetrieveCard?id=9D949526-6370-11D8-99FD-E3635E514682).

Don't flame up, it's all in fun and I BnZ when in the Jug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

CaptEasychord
02-22-2004, 12:12 AM
Vulching BnZ tactics suck and are at the heart of Luftwhining. They want their planes to have "absolute superiority" in climb because it makes them invulnerable. If u have the fastest climbing plane in the game you can leech kill after kill on a dogfight server with little risk to yourself, but its mainly a function of horsepower over skills. Of course the greater the hp advantage the more "correct" the FM is http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif such is the logic of the BnZ vulture. And it IS vulching if your picking off enemies whom are fighting/being distracted by your more couragous, dogfighting teammates.

Now, someone who chooses to BnZ with a slower climbing plane can do so with honor and a clear conscious. At least then it takes some measure of skill and places the pilot in some amount of risk. For ex; BnZing with a Lagg or A-5.

Actually the original poster was falling right into the BnZ vulchers trap; by picking a slighly inferior plane and trying to fight them on their terms. In fact thats the worst possible solution, because its MUCH easier to shoot down a slightly inferior aircraft than one that is completely obsolete (ie., in a G-2 attacking a P-40 vs. a U-2) Screw them. Pick the I-153 and stay on the deck. Make them come to YOU out of boredom and not the other way around. Eventually, someone will weaken/get bored and take the challenge. If they fly 100% vertical you fly 100% horizontal. Change the rules of the game.

S77th-brooks
02-22-2004, 01:26 AM
real men fly the P.11

Tully__
02-22-2004, 02:12 AM
If B&Z requires no skill, how come I suck at it so much?

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Salut
Tully

F19_Orheim
02-22-2004, 02:21 AM
I agree that to successfully B&Z definately needs a good pilot, but more important is your gunnery.

I myself prefer not to use B&Z too often, simply becaue I find it boring. After spending the last couple of days on Baldie's server "Fighting Jerks" in Chaikas and B-239's, I have found the joy of a "real" dogfighting; intense, sweaty, headtwisting and ooooo so much more fun.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I truly admire a good B&Z'er, when I am shot down in a 1/10th of a second, from someone I didn't hear nor see - I am in awe.

But as I said, you won't see me B6Z much, simply because I find it not as rewarding...

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

Tully__
02-22-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pinche_bolillo:
what ever it takes to get the other guy and not let him get you is a great tactic. If I have to run over to the other guys house and unplug his computer to beat him then its a valid tactic!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouln't that be cheating if it wasn't programmed into the game?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Salut
Tully

resev
02-22-2004, 02:45 AM
Well, i haven't in me to read trough the 10 pages of this thread, but i think i should make an addendum from me.

First of all, B&Z is a perfectly valid tactic, alltough i don't resort to it myself.

However, what i have read, is that the B&Zers were vulching an airbase incessantly, and that, i look down upon veementely.

Lots and lots.............and LOTS of people complained about the flak AI gunners beeing too accurate in the beguining, and now that they have been castrated, B&Zers take on cue and abuse it, thus not making it realistic at all.

B&Z is a perfectly valid tactic when used for straight forward combat, but used like that, by vulching the enemys base incessantly and non-stop, then its a poor skilled pilot's way out, by exploiting the castrated AI, and thus, not beeing realistic at all.

Ask any pilot, even todays jet pilots (if the airstrip hadn't been destroyed yet), if they would stay around for an hour, allways vulching on the same airfield, without beeing in very real danger of the AA gunner dropping them down like flies.


When used in open air combat, then kudos for B&Zers, as they are acting as they should, but if vulching the same airfield spot non-stop, then shame on you, wich i have little other words to say.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

Tully__
02-22-2004, 02:50 AM
Energy fighting (B&Z is a subset of energy fighting) is a perfectly valid tactic, though I don't necessarily like it being applied to me. Shutting down a base in a public server where that is not one of the mission goals posted in the bried is probably bad sportmanship. I don't agree with Gib, but can see that his opinion is valid from his point of view.

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Salut
Tully

WUAF_Badsight
02-22-2004, 03:13 AM
ok Tully .............. QUIT IT with the Corsair sig

its . . .

its . . .

its , depressing that its not in FB yet : ( ( ( ( (

rbstr44
02-22-2004, 05:04 AM
Wow. 10-pages...now, that's a debate that has traction! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hunter82:
I think Gibs a little liquored up and pissed off cause he got BnZ on his B-Day. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
QUOTE]

LMAO BEEN THERE DONE THAT

Gib where u gona fly that p38 ?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I have delt with this kind before (caugh, caugh, AFJ, caugh) and I have found that TYPICALLY, people who B&Z are NOT good pilots. Take them 1 on 1 level, and they will flop and flail, or run away.

Just dont make it "personal" or this thread will be locked. Gib<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gib you say dont make it personal yet you mention my squadron name. that sounds personal to me........

Ill fight you any time, in any AC, in arcade or FR dosent matter. (for fun)

This idea that B&Z pilots have no skill is Bull*Cheeze to say the least, Id appreciate if you leave my squadron name out of your rantings

I treat you with respect & expect the same, the time we were hawking your base in that winter map , It was air start & the bases were right on top of eachother, so dont be brodcasting Bullcheeze Gib

If I came here & posted everytime some scumbag yak3/la7/ / / / /........ was hawking my base Id never get to fly!!! cuz they come in droves..

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

[This message was edited by AFJ_Locust on Sun February 22 2004 at 03:37 PM.]

ajafoofoo
02-22-2004, 04:33 PM
AFJ and huge egos.....nothing new.

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gibbage1:
With proper teamwork and tactics, the P-38 will be a great dogfighter. I doubt it will be a good B&Z because of its compresability problems http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Unless you throw down your air-brake your going to be a crater. When you do that, you loose energy. Now you lost your energy and the P-38 will NOT out-climb anything in 1944. So there goes your B&Z theries. My plan is to mud-move in it, and fight my way back instead of running in a P-47. My dogfighting ride-of-choice will be the P-63. Then I will be able to chase down anything with 1800HP and 608KPH on-the-deck. [QUOTE]

Sure it will be a great mudmover I love bombing bases in fighters, But t&b in a p38 sounds like suicide to me LOL....

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I dont fly the game for KILLS, I fly it for fun!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gib killing is fun & you know it...
dying is not fun, thats why you came here & made this crazy post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Go easy on Gib; I think he's just baiting a hook with this one....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I hate people who B&Z on DF servers in general. Because they wont play on a level playing field. They are a waist of my time and generally annoy the HE11 outa me. Thats what this post is about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats what I thought http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Just an observation. Every time I found an AFJ online, he is up high, and runs from a fair fight. I have yet to fight one on even ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You want a fair fight ?

Bring it too Fighter Sweeps-2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

BS_MoAce
02-22-2004, 05:10 PM
You all know the thing about this is...We've not Heard from the three 51 pilots to hear thier side....
What were there names agian Gib??

Jetbuff
02-22-2004, 05:18 PM
WOW! I can't believe this ridiculous thread is still going on! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

To everyone who wants 109's, 190's and P-47's to TnB instead of BnZ, I say trade aircraft and we'd be more than happy to. We'll see how you turn and (literally) burn when we're the ones in the yaks!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I remember one time you and a few others were base camping in P-47's on an air-start server! How low is that? I spawn in, and 3 of you were diving down on me!!! I got a few JG27 friends on the server and chased you guys away from our spawn point and then you guys started crying about US base camping when all we did was fallow you back to your base. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was there Gibage & it was Only Mantis & Myself

Not 3 of us

It was air start & the bases were 10 feet away from eachother... what else were we supposed to do ?

Besides that we werent hunting you, you just happened to be there, 10 min later there was 6 jg27 hunting Mantis & myself & yes u sent 5 or 6 guys hunting us, we had spawned & flew North into the sun for a LONG time totaly away from any base or fight action, we were still flying away & slowly climbing our p47's when your pack of maddogs came from our six, so we kept runing but in p47's we werent getting far...

We said nothing untill the 4th or 5th time that this process was repeted, so you like a fair fight huh ?

lmao go smoke a dub man & chill on AFJ for a while...

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

maverick7614
02-22-2004, 05:58 PM
Ummm.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif what the hell is B&Z http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://aa.1asphost.com/Niklamort/06022004/Hard-day-over-berlin.JPG

BM357_Raven
02-22-2004, 06:04 PM
so did you guys come up with a solution, yet? Are BnZ's just a bunch a girlscouts, or are they skilled...?

I'll tell you this. When someone is kicking me across the sky like a tin can, I dont wonder if they are milking a loophole in the game. Instead, I wonder what they got that I dont. What are they doing that I need to be doing?

If a BnZ is knocking me around and I cant beat 'em, then I join 'em. So now I do both daddeo... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 06:07 PM
Well said !!!

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Eagle_361st
02-22-2004, 06:44 PM
Well Gib I have to start by saying that I have a very high regard for what you have done for the community and that I respect your opinion to a degree. But I must say I am very disappointed in the fact that you can lump so many together and disrepect and bash them about because you were VULCHED plain an simple. There is no honor in doing this in a game, real war is different, but it takes absolutely no skill to hover a base and pick off the poor slobs tryin to take off.

Having said that though BnZ or energy fighting has absolutely nothing to do with vulching. BnZ fighting taking a greater deal of patience and concetration as well as skill. Does it require more skill than TnB in ways yes, but in the same regard a TnB requires quick reflexes and quick thinking. What it is, is two totally different ways of fighting. One is very closed in like a very small box, the other is much broader with many more pssiblities. Just because I am an enegy fighter or BnZer what have you does not mean that I can't fight low and slow either. I prefer to fly fast, shoot fast and find the next target and do it again, this affords me the most possibility of returning to base. While I don't care about dying, I do take pride in being successful which I think everyone does. Going around in endless circles does not appeal to me, but setting up a bounce and continuing to bounce a target, especially a better a/c than mine. Because I know if I make one mistake he has me period, that only makes me fly that much mor effectively. But that doesn't mean that I am afraid to d/f in any a/c that I am flying(Which is maily the P-47), because trust me I will if the situation calls for it. But don't knock me or the others who fly smarter and fly their a/c as they were intended. And won't give up their advantage just to "Earn someone elses respect", especially considering if the tables are turned the other pilot won't do it.

~S!
Eagle
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J30Vader
02-22-2004, 06:53 PM
IIRC, the 38 and 47 both had the compressability problem. See "Thunderbolt" by Bob Johnson.

The 38 will be a great BnZ craft. Just like the 47.

DONB3397
02-22-2004, 10:43 PM
This thread has amazing legs. Hard to explain why a legitimate fighter tactic takes so much heat.

It doesn't seem so complicated that some planes aren't great in a turning DF. The P-47 has real firepower and dives like a stone. It wouldn't make much sense to hang around in low-level DF. Spitfires, on the other hand, were great turning fighters in reality, and I suspect there won't be many "B&Z" spit pilots when it arrives. The 109 K-4 also has big firepower and it was designed to rip through the bombers and leave pieces in the air...not to DF with them, or their escort.

I'll DF when I'm flying a La-5/7, or Yak-3, or even P-39. But probably not in my trusty ol' P-47D22. Thanks anyway.

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Tully__
02-23-2004, 02:07 AM
If this thread is to continue having legs, let's have a little less of the "AFJ did this" and "Gib did that" please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Same goes for the "he said....she said" routine. By all means talk the topic, but keep the people side to some nice inviting DF server http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Salut
Tully

fluke39
02-23-2004, 03:27 AM
how can a thread hope to stay "on topic" or avoid "personal attacks" when the author tells people not to make it personal and then makes a personal attack on the AFJ himself? - all in the first post?

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WOLFMondo
02-23-2004, 04:26 AM
I think using the P47 for anything other then B&Z is not good. You can't compete with other planes in a turning dogfight with that plane. However personally I don't vulch and I don't like vulching (I want to dogfight, not cut people down before they've got there wheels up) but I like to B&Z in the P47. Its fun.

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WWTaco
02-23-2004, 06:13 AM
Well Might as well chime in,

It's funny how things come around full circle. Little reminders of back when flash through every now and then in forums. The endless debates and most of which stem back to the dawn of online simming.

I remember this debate long ago in Red Baron. Back when Dr-1 fliers were crying that Spad drives are no skill hacks, gaming the game.

Fact of the matter is, you gotta do what your plane does best, not all, frankly few are turn fighting planes and almost any plane can b&z or shold i say energy fight. If you're not energy fighting then your not invloved in ACM.

Even the good turn and burners know all about energy fighting they do it every day. Why everyone has this fantasy that all dogfights should be on the horizontal is beyond me, maybe they have watched too many Hollywood movies depicting the endless sprial dogfight.
Fact of the matter is that went out with the camels and Dr-1's.

The spad, Se5a,snipe,pflaz D-12, DR-7, etc brought an end to the turning fight.

I find it much more difficult to b&z than turn fight. you have to be spot on for the half a sec when your target is in view and range and place a good burst in the right spot, somewhat like finding a certain neddle in a stack of needles. Don't get me wrong it takes skill to be a good turn fighter also, just you are "on target" for more of the time.

Anyone can take a yak 3'44 or a la-7 and t&b but jump in a 190 and try it and see how long it takes you to become an energy fighter..

Frankly if i had the same thing happen to me Gib, i would have taken off low, got out of range climbed on up above them and returned the favor or at least died trying.....

S!

Taco

JG5_UnKle
02-23-2004, 07:50 AM
What Taco said http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously though, it really depends on the fight. As a 109/190 pilot you have to rely on what little advantages you have.

Speed & Firepower primarily.

Taking these advantages into account leads a pilot to the following logical conclusions:

1. Seek and maintain an 'energy' advantage - Potential energy (Altitude) or Kinetic (Airspeed)
2. Utilise your higher firepower in a concentrated burst.
3. Maintain airspeed to deny the enemy a gun solution.

All these things lead you (quite naturally) to use BnZ as a subset of energy fighting on your attack run - ASSUMING you are flying a higher wing-loading, faster and more powerful (firepower wise) aircraft - like the 190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I was flying a Bf-109 G2 vs a Mustang then I would drag him below 5000M and turn fight his *** http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It all depends on the situation.

Saying that TnB is for "Real men" and BnZ is just for cowards and sissies is just a bit silly IMHO. Sitting over a base and Vulching is not BnZ - it's straffing ground targets. Like shooting up aircraft who are landing and taking off - not a great display of skill IMHO http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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NorrisMcWhirter
02-23-2004, 09:57 AM
Hi,

It's sad that BnZ has been closely associated with vulching in this thread, possibly to attempt to discredit it. Of course it is annoying if someone vulches but that can happen irrespective of BnZ'ing.

The majority of BnZ'rs use it as a legitimate combat tactic, because it utilises their aircraft's qualities to best effect, well "out in the field" & away from bases. We all know it's very effective, too, otherwise there would be no whining about it.

If people are vulching bases (unless it is acceptable for that server), then I suggest you find another server/get the admin to sort them out.

Cheers,
Norris


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AFJ_Locust
02-23-2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fluke39:
how can a thread hope to stay "on topic" or avoid "personal attacks" when the author tells people not to make it personal and then makes a personal attack on the AFJ himself? - all in the first post? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question

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ASH at S-MART
02-23-2004, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eagle_361st:
What it is, is two totally different ways of fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That much is true! To make an analogy

BnZ = Boxing

TnB = Wrestling

Where

Boxing is stand back sizing up your opponent and looking for the opportunity to take a jab at him..

Wrestling is up close and personal where one is trying to pin the other...

Problem is..

What we typical see online as far as TnB goes looks more like some W.W.F. game show than traditional gecko wrestling!

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faustnik
02-23-2004, 03:25 PM
I think PITA is cracking down on the gecko wrestling.

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Zen--
02-23-2004, 03:26 PM
lol

It's Greco or Greko, not gecko http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(and PITA is a bread, PETA is the organizatin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

WWMaxGunz
02-23-2004, 05:36 PM
WWI -- EIII's vs DH-2's and the TnB plane (DH-2) more often won. N-11's vs Alb D2's and if the Alb flew it right then the Nieup was hard pressed if not the loser right out. Alb D3 hit and the Nieups were toast even the N-17, as I found in RB2 when I was flying N-11's and N-17's before switching to the 2 gun Albs and becoming Max G.
Yeah there were many power reversals in that war as far as who had the better plane what season. The Sop Tripe, the DrI, the Spads and Pfalzes, the Camels and Snipes and the mighty Fokker DVII that came too late. I think more were better suited to speed and use of the vertical than flat turning. Even when I look at Max Immelmans and Boelkes tactics with the Eindekkers, I'm not looking at flat turns.

Gib, like the man said, ya got Vulched. Don't much matter how you were hit, you were extra vulnerable and the miserable miscreants used you for easy target practice instead of letting you get at least co-alt for a fair chance. What they did was LOW not only for lack of honor and a sort of cowardice (vulching and 2 on 1!) but also for activities that discourage people to play online. if they got hounded later then it's only right, the punishment suits the crime.
But please Gib, don't tar tactics over that! Planes have to be flown to their RELATIVE strengths (yes the same plane may work TnB with one enemy and yet require BnZ with another that turns better) or the fight is a sham only exceeded by what happened to you.


Neal

JG14_Josf
02-23-2004, 05:45 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gibbage1
02-23-2004, 05:48 PM
I left this thread somewere on page 8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Lol. Any contenuation is NOT by my hands. People just love a good flame-ridden thread hay?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
If this thread is to continue having legs, let's have a little less of the "AFJ did this" and "Gib did that" please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Same goes for the "he said....she said" routine. By all means talk the topic, but keep the people side to some nice inviting DF server http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Salut
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ASH at S-MART
02-23-2004, 06:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I left this thread somewere on page 8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Lol.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is that because page 9 is where you relised you were wrong?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Any contenuation is NOT by my hands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
People just love a good flame-ridden thread hay?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ignorace is bliss! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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AFJ_Locust
02-23-2004, 10:29 PM
Hey Gib I made you some wallpaper mon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Use it in good health.

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Gibbage1
02-23-2004, 11:48 PM
I have a new sig. "Ream men dont run"

WUAF_Toad
02-24-2004, 12:21 AM
Hey,can I have a new sig too, how about "Real men don't whine"?

Bamatt
02-24-2004, 02:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I guess you one of those guys Gibb... Allow me to disapoint you, B&Z requires just much skill as T&B. if not more... and you know it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Now for people who say "it was a proper tactic in WWII", I have this to say. YA! IT WAS! You know why? Because they did not want to die!!! They feared a pro-longed enguagement and prefered to cut-n-run after 1 pass and survive. Are you telling me that your scared to die in an ONLINE game? Im sure that if WWII pilots had a "respawn" option, then they would not be scared to "mix-it-up" a little. But we, pilots of IL2 in dogfight servers should not fear death. Why RUN from a good fight if your not scared of loosing? Or is it the fear of beeing a looser? "

I don`t want to die even with virtual death, i hate dying. There is a big difference between RUN and EXTEND too. Turnfighting Yaks and La`s in german AC is just plain silly IMO, just as having all planes available on both sides, but that just my opinion... So there! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed all around. I get so friggin aggravated when I find a server with the settinfs I like, only to find out that all planes are at both bases. BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arm_slinger
02-24-2004, 03:15 AM
LOL!!! good luck in trying to turn etc in a 190 against things that can turn, all that thing can do is go up and down pretty quick

BnZ is a legit tactic, what would be the point in trying to turn etc in a plane that cant do it to well....

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Korolov
02-24-2004, 05:38 AM
"Real men don't run"?

Ok, how about if I run away, then come back. Does that make me a real man or does it make me a lamer n00b who can't fly?

Come to think of it, I'd rather be a roleplayer than a real man. You can be a real man, I'll be a roleplayer who, above all else, TRIES HIS BEST NOT TO DIE!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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kweassa
02-24-2004, 05:42 AM
BnZ is an overhyped tactic.

Nobody kills anything by "BnZ" alone, and a tactic which cannot kill the enemy is practically useless.

Go fight someone more or less as much skilled as you are, and the odds are he knows how to counter BnZ passes.

I'm pretty much only an average pilot, but try that up-down-up-down boring slashing shi* and basically I can avoid that with my eyes closed. Heaven knows the better pilots even go as far as to eagerly wait for someone to use such a lame tactic - it's so easy to take advantage of!

In order to really down an enemy, at somepoint during the fight, you must commit, even for a shortwhile. You may have to relocate yourself or zoom out at some point, but still, if you want to down something, you must commit.

BnZ without aggressive intent to bring actual demise to your opponent, is an empty, hollow purpose.

People who play the straight-line jousting game until they run out of E and have to run away, is really a pathetic excuse for a "BnZ". Man, they've got the most important advantage called "altitude" and "speed", and all they can manage is a 'stalemate'!

That's pitiful.

......


Okay, the uncynical version:

Basically, the straight-line boom-attack-zoom sequence known as "BnZ" has a serious flaw as a combat tactic. The effectiveness of such pure BnZ is enormously limited to the classic bounce, where the enemy is totally unaware of your approach.

If someone knows somebody's coming, it is very easy for him to avoid. The chances are. he'll very easily avoid the attack.

The problem is this; BnZ is like a telegraphed punch. It's far too easy for someone to prepare for it and counter it - with each attack pass, if the defending pilot is a smart one, he'll take steps to neutralize the parity in E status.

And what happens then? Some four, five passes, and the attacking plane finds that the advantage is now neutralized.

Since he started off as the higher plane, he'll probably be able to escape. But as said above, he had the most meaningful advantage on his side, and yet failed to down an enemy - that's really something to be ashamed of.

Why did he fail?

That is because, relying on the up-down-up-down classic BnZ pass method, most usually means that the attacker is overly passive.

In short, the hunter, is scared of his prey.

....

No matter how one puts it, basically he is scared.

When I see someone doing that, I know for a fact that he is scared. I know for a fact, that if I pull a few evasives, he'll run off somewhere else having blown away all of his initial advantage.

And the funny thing is, the attacker knows that, too. Why else would he resort to such a manneristic method of attack?

...

That's like entering a boxing ring and refusing to punch someone, for the reason that the opponent might come with a counter hook.

Ofcourse, it's always hard to draw a line between "being scared" and "being careful". But as long as one decides to engage the enemy, he has committed himself to a fight which he should turn out victorious. If he refuses to take risks, then he refuses to win. BnZ is like that. He'll never lose when flying by that method. But also, he'll never win.

...

Not relying on BnZ, as said before, does not automatically mean "TnB". That sort of thinking is a bad side effect which comes from automatically categorizing combat methods into "TnB" and "BnZ".

It's a useful way of explaining different characteristics of energy management, but it does tend to give the wrong impressions.

The alternative is actually pretty clear. Altitude and speed advantage, must be aggressively utilized if you want to kill something. "BnZ", unfortunately, doesn't qualify as "aggressive".

If I have to turn a 190 or a P-47 to get a kill, hell yeah, I'll do it. If I have to enter a extended turn fight in such planes, I'll do it too.

The point is this: nobody restricted or forbade that some maneuvers should not be used in certain planes.

If you need to use turning and chasing, all you have to do is use it in the correct method. Thinking that "hmm a P-47 is a BnZ plane, so I'm not gonna turn in it" or "a 190 is a bad turner, so I'll be careful never to chase a more agile plane in a turn", simply limits your options.

It could be a useful tip for the novice, but it's a handcuff for the pilots who are learning quickly. It turns them into "half-lings", who are extremely confident with alt advantage, but incredibly skill-less when forced out of such situation.

The guys I'm really scared of, are those who will bravely come after my Bf109 and willingly enter a tough fight. The odds are, those guys are either total newbies, or guys who really know how to use their advantages aggressively.

The rest of the in-betweens, who dance all day up down up down, are really nobody's concern during combat.

The only instance when they become a threat, is when you are running away and hordes of them come after you. They force you to turn and maneuver, which results in other maneuverable planes catching up with you and finishing you up.

Zen--
02-24-2004, 07:33 AM
You raise some interesting points kweassa, thats a well reasoned argument you put forth.

I do in general agree, you can tell a lot about someone's mentality by their fighting style. Slightly OT but the legendary Alexander the Great used to do full frontal attacks where his enemies were strongest because in most cases he correctly reasoned that is where they felt most insecure. Despite them having all the advantages, he would attack them anyway because they had telegraphed their dependency on their defenses. They truly did not have the will to fight in that location and typically were defeated. Interesting that you mention something similar with BnZ...thats a subtle observation indeed.

Attacking a good pilot, BnZ is difficult to succeed with unless there is more than one attacker doing it...teamwork pays off well in that case making the defender have to work very very hard to survive. BnZ is further complicated by flying with cockpit on, many planes either do not have an effective dive speed to make use of it, have limited firepower not very suitable for instant killing damage or have restricted forward view which makes the defenders job easier. Surprise is the key element and if you don't have it, BnZ can sometimes be an exercise in futility.

I'd say that pure BnZ tactics are rather like an artillery barrage...the attacker is immune to counterattack but the probability of success is rather low. Constant attacks may defeat the opponent through sheer attrition, but at some point you will need to get in closer and stay close to finish the job. TnB makes me think more of hand to hand combat...effective but risky and it leaves you exposed while grappling with your target, kind of like sending in the infantry. Success is there, but casualties are often high.

E fighting is the 3rd style (but most often never mentioned) and if flown correctly I think yields the best results and gives the attacker the most options. With it you seem to get the most out of your energy...you can BnZ and turn with your opponent and have a wider number of circumstances to score hits. Since you generally remain faster than the enemy, you are typically in a good position if attacked by surprise, at least you have some reserves of speed and aren't following a pretty routine turning circle. E fighters tend to fight in the vertical as well, the constant up and down gives you a better opportunity to check the airspace around you for other hostiles as you work your magic on the target. And you can switch back and forth between TnB and BnZ as the situation permits, it's very flexible indeed.

The main visual difference between E fighting and BnZ is the seperation from the target plane but what's going on undernieth is what counts in this case. With BnZ one usually has a lofty height advantage but this long dive, while safe, does telegraph your intentions. After the pass the BnZer goes back high, which gives the target some breathing room...and a chance to break the E advantage little by little. If not flown well the attacker can indeed find himself losing his advantage.

TnB is very short ranged combat and requires great SA as well as flap and engine management, but the concentration required can often can prevent you from keeping track of the overall picture, and here comes the BnZ guy or another TnB wingman. During TnB, there is little room for error, the pressure is on from the moment the sabers clash and a lot of interesting things are going on. For what it's worth, while fun and exciting, I consider it a reckless style of fighting and my personal outlook on life shies away from high stakes gambling...once in a while sure, but I approach even this game with the long term in mind. Never throw away what you already have...be patient and look to the longer goal, not what is right in front of you.

Sure we have virtual lives and getting killed doesn't really matter but I look at kill/loss ratios for my personal success. If I get 10 people and get shot down once thats something to me. If I get 30 people and get shot down 29, thats not so hot...what have I really done in that case? Likewise if I get outmanuevered by a better pilot and live, thats a victory to me because at least I was decent enough to get out of trouble, still not happy about getting bested, but I managed something anyway.


E fighting is the in between, the range is closer than BnZ, but not as close as TnB (perhaps for brief moments but not in a protracted fight, at least in the later stages). That closeness puts pressure on the bandit because while you are working for an E advantage if he makes a mistake you can convert that into a short TnB engagement and hopefully score a kill. Another important part of E fighting is that it is inherently safer than TnB in the one on one, unless you are at the disadvantage to start with, but thats where the fun is at...getting out of the hole http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Your comments on risk taking are interesting and so are the ones about being put in handcuffs. This is exact reason I hop into furballs in the Dora even though it supposedly can't turn. It's the same reason that I feel rigidly sticking to one style is a dead end...staying in a box can make you really good in that arena against people who are like that also, but when things change or you are confronted by someone with a different style, you may not have the same level of success.



Interesting post, I enjoyed reading it.

&lt;S!&gt;

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

BaldieJr
02-24-2004, 08:09 AM
How to BnZ in I-153??!?! Please explain this thing to me!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Korolov
02-24-2004, 08:18 AM
Don't dive any faster than 500kmh and hope your opponent only has about 200kmh in speed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Cajun76
02-24-2004, 08:24 AM
Wow, I wish I were as eloquent as Kweassa or Zen. To me, ya'll have hit the nail on the head. Excellent posts and observations, imho.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

Cajun76
02-24-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
How to BnZ in I-153??!?! Please explain this thing to me!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've BnZ I-153's in a I-16 before. All it takes is using speed (not nessacarily an altitude advantage) against a slower opponent.

Maybe you could BnZ a Stuka... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

JG5_UnKle
02-24-2004, 11:19 AM
Well BnZ works for me - and my squad. As several have said above it relies on teamwork, something you don't see in DF rooms.

With a rough kill ratio of (Too lame to quote figures - but very nice) I guess we must be doing something right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WRT to BnZ defence, I rarely see pilots who counter BnZ well - if at all. In a Wonderwoman server with externals sure; you can hit F6 and have instant all round SA, but not at higher difficulty levels.

A break turn to avoid a BnZ attack causes the defender to bleed energy, this is what the BnZ aggressor wants http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now if you are then dumb enough to try and follow the BnZ attacker to squeeze off a shot, my wingman coming down after me will shred you in a lovely setup - known as the classic "Drag N Bag".

So I don't think it is that easily countered if you fly as a Rotte/Schwarme. Ideally you kill one aircraft on the first pass without him even knowing you were there. With a wingman about 5 seconds behind you he can clear your six and kill anything that climbs up.

1vs1 BnZ is still very effective - you just have to stay smart and sharp, it's a bit more than just diving and climbing back up again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

kweassa
02-24-2004, 12:10 PM
That's a bit different situation Unkle.

If I read Gibbage's tone of post correctly, I'm pretty much sure he was assuming a near 1vs1 fight.

Basically, tactics as a team, and tactics as an individual differs greatly - and usually in the former case, the level of organization and mutual communication are the true factors of a successful outcome - rather than a certain tactic by itself, being more or less meaningful or not.

In short, I've never seen your squad in action, but basically if you are achieving good results as a team with BnZ tactics, then it's highly probable you guys would probably yield the same results when all of you enter a more close range fight. I've seen what the unorganized bunch of people can become when they try "BnZ" as a group. It's really ugly.

It doesn't necessarly take a F6 key to figure out where the enemy is, if you are keen on situational awareness.

Interestingly, your assertion that counter moves against BnZ passes are results of "Wonderwoman servers", ironically, serves to justify my claim - basically, what you are saying is BnZ is highly successful when the targetted plane does not know that he is under attack - in that sense, the success of BnZ tactics you are talking about, is a "bounce" situation; where the targetted plane is unaware of the impending attack.

Especially when coupled with multiple engagement tactics as a group, it serves to prove my point - when a group of people as an organized squad begins a BnZ attack, it is actually a series of bounces where the organized attacker targets a single enemy and dissipates his concentration. Basically, a group of planes using BnZ passes can create a unaware bounce situation at will.

The organized, multiple attackers, have another advantage in that case - they can dictate the number of planes attacking a target.

If four planes with alt advantage meet four enemies, it doesn't necessarily have to be four groups of 1vs1 fights. Leave one plane top guard, and use three planes to pick a single enemy and shoot him down first - and repeat it four times, and the lower enemies are pretty much helpless against that sort of attack, unless they themselves are more highly organized than the attackers.

Thus, the situational advantages a BnZ tactic provides, as a group, is sort of irrelevant in this discussion; in my opinion that is.

Simply put, it's a different story altogether!

...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A break turn to avoid a BnZ attack causes the defender to bleed energy, this is what the BnZ aggressor wants http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The turning plane loses energy, yes.

But don't forget that the plane that has to forcibly nose his plane upwards at high speeds, climb, reposition himself, telegraph his move, and then come back down again, is also exposed to tremendous amount of energy loss himself.

One must not forget, that the only reason he is able to repeat such attacks, is because he came with a large alt advantage in the first place - it is not because "BnZ" is comprised of energy-efficient series of maneuvers.

A lot of forces work on the side of the defender too.

A BnZ pass against a maneuvering enemy, usually yields very low hit percentages. The closure rate to the target plane is high, dive angle is abrupt, and the G-effect becomes a burden - the chances are, if the targetted defender is aware of the attack, he doesn't necessarily have to break hard to avoid an attack.

For an example of BnZ counters;

The principle of defensive maneuvers against BnZ passes, is described in the famous "Boelke's Dicta", #6;

" If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it"

As I have mentioned, a classic up-down BnZ pass, is a telegraphed maneuver. An attacker seeking this method of attack, against an enemy who is aware that someone up high is trying to attack you, always has to position himself to his comfort - which takes time.

And during that time, the defender makes his move.

When the attacker begins to dive, as Boelke's Dicta mentions, one must turn into the direction of the diving enemy, instead of trying to flee from it.

This forces the attacker into an even higher closure rate, with a steeper angle of dive(since, you are turning into his attack). The attacker has to attempt a front quarter shot at very high speeds and angle, with large amount of deflection required with typically a negative-G stick push.

Such state is severely penalizing in terms of energy and maneuvering for the attacker - the defender does not necessarily have to use all his energy to break turn hard and squirm around like a worm.

All he needs to do, is spend a certain portion of his energy to a certain portion of time during the attack pass. Only an inexperienced pilot would start a long break turn with an enemy behind his back diving onto him.

Of course, when the defender turns into the attacker's dive, he is momentarily low in E.

But the attacker cannot use this situational advantage - it's a BnZ pass, remember? He has to spend his time going back up high. In the mean while, the defender, having avoided the pass, accelerates a bit, and prepares to turn into the attacker again, when he dives again.

Repeat this about four~five times, and the chances are, the attacker is forced to either commit himself into a more 'conventional' method of close range fighting, or run away.

Neutralizing the attacker's E advantage, is not very hard in classic BnZs. It is a passive, linear tactic.

If it's not linear, and diverges into various methods of countermeasures to nullify the defender's evasives, then it can't be called a pure "BnZ" anymore. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif From that point on, it evolves into "Energy fighting".

Cajun76
02-24-2004, 12:27 PM
kweassa, shhhhhh! You're going to make it very difficult for me to shoot down "superior" aircraft in my P-47 if you keep giving out this kind of knowledge. Good post, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

J30Vader
02-24-2004, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
lol

It's Greco or Greko, not gecko http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I switched to Geico and saved a bunch of money on my car insurance.

Zen--
02-24-2004, 01:48 PM
Now that is some tight shat kweassa, very nicely done again. &lt;S!&gt;


Your comments on relative energy loss during the break make a good point...it doesn't have to burn a lot of E for the break to be successful, often even a simple negative knife manuever will foil the BnZ fighter's aim just enough for him to zoom through his firing window. After that the engaged fighter can continue climbing at an efficient rate while generally circling under the BnZ fighter. You are correct when you say that it is possible to counter the E advantage of the BnZ fighter and eventually gain parity or even advantage yourself. It's not without risk, but in a sim where the object is to shoot down planes, a certain amount of risk is inevitable...no defense is perfect 100% of the time, all the defender is trying to do is reduce the odds against him, not ensure survival.



UnKle, you are right about the effectiveness of team tactics with BnZ. Multiple attackers tend to keep the enemy occupied allowing a greater squad/section defense, allowing multiple passes to take advantage of the engaged fighters defensive movements and to generally keep him a low E state. There is no easy way for the engaged fighter to get out of that particular jam, but then I guess being bounced by multiples is never a good thing, nor an easy one. Guys like you who work together can really make life heck for people (something which I warmly salute btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) and if you can do it in FR, you have my respect and then some.

BnZ in WWV is much easier because of the greater range of deflection shots possible by the attacker and the fact that he can keep eyes on the bandit at all times (which gives tends to narrow the defenders window for evasive action), whereas in FR just keeping sight of the target during the BnZ cycle can be problematic and why it is really only effective against an unsuspecting enemy.... or with team tactics.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

AFJ_Locust
02-24-2004, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Toad:
Hey,can I have a new sig too, how about "Real men don't whine"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

JG5_UnKle
02-25-2004, 04:36 PM
Nice post kweassa S!

Yes, I guess bringing in team tactics is a bit of an apples/oranges argument http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think BnZ is a nice opening strategy especially with a flight of four working as two co-dependant pairs. You can really work down a group this way.

However, the energy-bleed aspect of FB for some aircraft (or rather - lack of it) also adds to the ineffectiveness of BnZ, when only a small margin (in terms of initial alt advantage) is offered at the merge.

So with a good initial advantage and team tactics it is very valid anf hard to beat. But then again, having a team is hard to beat anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BTW: I'm glad this thread turned into a more interesting discussion, and not a complete flame-fest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-25-2004, 07:55 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/ART.jpg

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
02-25-2004, 07:59 PM
Just so people know I realy do like Gibage (if he cares or not) mainly i like him alot because he modled my favorite ac P38 lightnin

BUT...
I like even more to give him heck muhahahaha

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

WWMaxGunz
02-25-2004, 08:41 PM
Yah, dat Erich Hartmann guy, he was all into BnZ and look how he never got anywhere, right?

For some people BnZ means what others call Energy Fighting and for others it menas hit and run. hartmann did not stick around. Over 350 confirmed victories... he was just lucky I guess! Him and many other high scoring aces, all just using a loser tactic. Whole squads, just losers with great reputations. Life's just not fair.


Neal

Hartmann001
02-25-2004, 08:52 PM
hehe

Hi Neal,
Great reply. Engery fighting (BnZ) is the best way to fight bar none. The hit and run tactics are great and all sides used them. The Americans fighting the Japanese early in the war in IndoChine (ie Flying Tigers) were using the old P40 and contrary to what Oleg has in the game the fighter was horible! The American would get alt and fly thru them and fire the whole way and run. They didn't dogfight that hit and ran and look at their record!

The same was true for aqlmost every fighter in the American inventory. They all blew at turn fights and climbs so they dove, fired, ran and would circle back around and do it again.

So if it was so bad then way was everyone doing it?

II_JG1Hartmann
02-25-2004, 08:57 PM
Agreed!

I use that all the time as my name sake says....

JG27_BLACKHART
02-25-2004, 09:01 PM
B&Z is a valid Tactic and a valid excuse in some cases. I fly both to keep things in prospective. I believe you exert more energy and skill in T&B but B&Z requires skill as well.

Energy and Altitude always has the advantage over all and is a basic fact. Yes people hide behind it but it is a need to try and stay alive. The difference between extension and running is major. Most people run when out smarted or out numbered or extend to gain distance for safety or lure you away from the flock. Even wildered animals have this very instinct to seperate the weak from the strong and seperate them from the rest for an easy kill.

When I fly high I try very hard to be a gentlemen and aim for the highest plane. If there aren't any then I'm sorry I will nail the closest plane to me. I do not attack planes that just put the gears up but landing planes that have not touched the ground are fair game to me.

I don't believe in lingering over a base and destroy planes just taking off. I fight as fair as I can unless a certain pilot is being dirty arse then I fight dirty or just leave the game. There is always one in a crowd that makes it totaly unbarable for others. as far as 3 on 1 with you having a disadvantage in your case I would take it as an honor to have had that privilage. It means that you were aparently the better pilot for 3 to take you on for 15 minutes.

When I find myself in that predicument I fly as low as I can building as much energy as I can and lure them as far away from the base as possable giving other pilots a chance to gain altitude over them. Hell I know I will probably die any way right? Fly smarter not harder. Hit refly and do my thing. They have to eventually land if they wasted ammo and fuel to chase me. Then it's there turn.

Everyone has there ways of flying but the advantage between pilots is the winner in most cases.

To answer your question Gib Yes B&Z takes less effort and is a dominating tactic esspecially in wolf packs but a smart T&B pilot can turn it around and use there advantage against them.

Don't give up Gib because of two or three.
It's not worth the fun you do have flying.

BH

http://home.earthlink.net/~eaglz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bh.jpg

Zacast51
02-26-2004, 11:39 PM
Ok I only read the first page of this thread but I'm gonna jump in here and give my opinion on a few things anyhow.

There are five planes in WW2 that I honestly can say that I really love, and those are the 109F-4, P-51D, F4U-Corsair, P-47, and FW-190A series. These are all planes which are not considered the best turners in the arena.

I love these planes because they all have one thing in common - Each is designed to go diving into battle. They are not built for Turn and burn. They are built for attacking your enemy using vertical attacks when fast, not slow.

By attacking your enemy in a furball using lots of hard turns, you are not using the plane as it was designed to be used and you are increasing your chances of dieing. I don't want to die in an online server, I want to shoot people down.

Thus I use what tactics my planes are most effective at - Booming and Zooming and Energy fighting. I hit them, climb up, dive down and hit em again, and of course I use Yo yos and other tactics so I don't remain PURE Boom and Zoom.

This is fun for me. I don't like slow speed turn fights. I don't find circle jerking on the deck to be enjoyable to me. I like high speed snap shot shooting and zoom climbing just outside of guns range of my enemy as they stall trying to zoom climb into guns range of me.

I am not saying that hovering above an enemy AF is good for the game or fun, because its not. I AM saying that hovering over the target area attempting to BnZ your enemy and surprise him well after they take off is legitmate and fun for me.

So with that being said, I will continue to use energy fighting tactics because thats what I find to become enjoyable in game.

And ya know what? Learning to do real ENERGY FIGHTING (pure Boom and zoom mixed with riding the edge of stall above the other guy just outside of guns range) is one of the single most difficult to master and skilled things to do in this game.

&lt;S&gt;

Aztek_Eagle
02-26-2004, 11:53 PM
BZ The only thing that annoyes me sometimes is when talking about zb u follow one of those zoom boommers, i was atacked by a fw190, and i said ok, i am gona follow this guy, i can climb better on my mig3u, and here i go, we got to more than seven7k, and there i am still on him just to annoy him, afther around five minutes or more flying out of the map i notice this guy had left the computer and leave the plane still flying just for me to still following him, and when he camos back, he just bails out and respawn, i am like wtf, Yes Zoom and Boom is valid, but atleast have some dignity

VK_Dim
02-27-2004, 03:24 AM
Well Gibbage, seems to me that you got OWNED.
Stop whinin and play the ******* game.
Cheers

karost
02-27-2004, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Korolov:


"Real men don't run"?

Ok, how about if I run away, then come back. Does that make me a real man or does it make me a lamer n00b who can't fly?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL ....you are a smart guy



BnZ or Hit and run is classic kill they use head not emotion to make kill and come back to base with save life this tactic for a smart guy.

let see the history in the true of view point , WWI and WWII how many pilot die by get kill for this tactic ...?


I like to play VEF2 or Blazing Magnums 357th to simulate real combat situation and enjoy for "how to kill and surviev" .


if I met some guy BnZ me that time I have to think and find the way to anti-BnZ which not easy , and if I get kill by BnZ ....well , I accept of get kill, the guy just take advatage for situation that support him and if I were him I will do the same thing.



I can see 3 kind of people who host DF server

1. fun only ( same like cs but we have a wing ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
2. semi-fun and real like ( great green server )
3. full real or full switch like ( Blazing Magnums 357th ) that is my favor host http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and soon will have a new host setup like
4. gentleman setup ( Bnz , vulch go away ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Gibbage1 if you host no.4 setup or join no.4 host that will have no problem,
you will meet alot of gentelman out there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


S!

SUPERAEREO
02-27-2004, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG27_BLACKHART:

When I fly high I try very hard to be a gentlemen and aim for the highest plane. If there aren't any then I'm sorry I will nail the closest plane to me. I do not attack planes that just put the gears up but landing planes that have not touched the ground are fair game to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post.

Just one observation: attacking the highest plane is also the smart thing to do: if you attack any lower down, his buddies high up will be on your six in no time at all.

And attacking landing planes can be OK, but I avoid it because it really p*sses people off when they lose their points that way, and often people I spared returned the favour later in the game...

S!