View Full Version : Ace trivia time

02-07-2005, 11:21 PM
Who was the last real life Ace in all the world Dave?

(5 kills or more)

02-07-2005, 11:27 PM
Wheres Dave?

02-08-2005, 12:18 AM
Mohammed M. Alam, Syed Saad Hatmi or Steve Ritchie. Just quessing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Dave's not here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

02-08-2005, 01:14 AM
Which country, what war and what year?

02-08-2005, 01:55 AM
RBJ or SirRobin http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Seriously though...
country: Israel
war: the on in Bekaa valley?
year: 1980-something

Just guessing here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

02-08-2005, 05:10 AM
Would have to be a Middle-East type situation. Falklands is too early, and so are the Balkans. I'm guessing it's an Israeli pilot as well. Not at all sure of who it is though.

02-08-2005, 05:50 AM
Reports of what happened next vary. It is generally accepted that in the course of the first attack against the Bekaa an 9 June 1982, the IAF destroyed 17 of the 19 Syrian SAM batteries and their radar sites, as well as 29 Syrian Air Force (SAF) fighters, without loss.15 The following day, the IAF destroyed the remaining two missile batteries. The SAF once more challenged the Israelis and lost approximately 35 more aircraft, again without downing an Israeli aircraft. By the end of July, Syria had lost at least 87 aircraft, while Israeli losses amounted to a few helicopters, one RF-4E, and an A-4 Skyhawk downed by a PLO SA-7.16

Naturally, Arab claims differed from Western and Israeli accounts. The Syrian news agency SANA claimed that 19 Israeli and 14 Syrian planes had been downed on 9 June. The next day, the Syrians maintained that six Israeli and seven Syrian aircraft had been destroyed, while no mention was made on either day of any damage to their SAMS.17 The Soviets went even further in extolling the SAF's combat virtues: the military newspaper Red Star announced triumphantly that "sixty-seven Israeli aircraft, including modern US-made F-15 and F-16 fighters, were downed" in the fighting.18 Further Soviet reports included an account in Red Star about a meeting with a Syrian airman who eagerly recounted an engagement in which he shot down an Israeli F-15: "The victory had not been easy; the enemy had been subtle."19

These claims met with great skepticism, even within Soviet ranks. After the Bekaa Valley debacle, for example, a story circulated around the Soviet military about how the Syrian Air Force maintained a departure control but no approach control.20 Even the Syrians themselves privately admitted defeat. After the Bekaa turkey shoot, Gen Mustafa Tlas, the defense minister, told President Hafez Assad and other government leaders that "the Syrian Air Force was outclassed, the ground-to-air missiles useless, and that without air cover, the army could not fight on."21 Indeed, it seems a bit odd that the Soviets would celebrate a great Syrian victory by sending the first deputy commander of the Soviet air defense forces to find out what went wrong. It seems even stranger that they would conclude that a new SAM system of SA-8s, SA-9s, and long-range SA-5s was necessary, manned by some 1,000 to 1,500 Soviet "advisers."22

02-08-2005, 05:51 AM
Aside from the land battles, most of the war is fought between Argentine aircraft and the British ships and carrier-borne Harriers. Argentine losses are heavy, but so is the Royal Navy's, and only the hit on "Glamorgan" by a land-based Exocet at the end of the war is not due to aircraft. Just before the San Carlos landings, this is a useful point to summarise the main Argentine aircraft involved and the losses they sustain, as well as inflict.
Right - FAA Skyhawk


1st Attack Sqdn (1 Esc) 6 Aermacchi MB-339A's to Falklands, 2 lost and 3 captured Minor damage to "Argonaut" by cannon (21st May)
2nd Fighter and Attack Sqdn (2 Esc) Super Etendard flying from Rio Grande with no losses Destroyer "SHEFFIELD" (4th May) and
Support ship "ATLANTIC CONVEYOR" (25th May) hit by Exocet and both sunk

3rd Fighter and Attack Sqdn (3 Esc) Skyhawk A-4Q's flying from Rio Grande, 3 lost Frigate "ARDENT" sunk by bombs (21st May)
4th Attack Sqdn (4 Esc) 4 Mentor T-34C's to Falklands, all lost -


1st Air Transport Group (Grupo 1) Hercules (1 lost), Boeing 707's. Also photo-reconnaissance Learjets (1 lost) -

2nd Light Bomber Group (Grupo 2) Canberras flying from Trelew and Rio Gallegos, 2 lost -

3rd Attack Group
(Grupo 3) 24 Pucaras to Falklands, 13 lost and 11 captured, plus one mainland-based aircraft lost Only British aircraft casualty directly due to Argentine aircraft is Royal Marine Scout [b28] shot down by a Grupo 3 Pucara on the 28th May
4th Fighter Bomber Group (Grupo 4) Skyhawk A-4C's flying from San Julian and Rio Grande, 9 lost Believed to have damaged LSL's "Sir Bedivere", "Sir Galahad" and "Sir Lancelot" with UXB's (all 24th May)
5th Fighter Bomber Group (Grupo 5) Skyhawk A-4B's from Rio Gallegos, 10 lost Destroyer "Glasgow" damaged by UXB (12th May)
Frigate "Argonaut" damaged by UXB (21st May)

Frigate "ANTELOPE" sunk by bomb (23rd May)

Destroyer "COVENTRY" sunk by bombs and frigate "Broadsword" damaged by UXB (both 25th May)

LSL's "SIR GALAHAD" (later scuttled) and "Sir Tristram" damaged; "Fearless" LCU F4 sunk by bombs (all 8th June)

6th Fighter Bomber Group (Grupo 6) Daggers from Rio Grande and San Julian, 11 lost Destroyer "Glamorgan", frigates "Alacrity" and "Arrow", minor damage by cannon fire and near misses (all 1st May)
Destroyer "Antrim" damaged by UXB, frigate "Ardent" damaged by bomb, frigates "Brilliant" and "Broadsword" minor damage by cannon fire (all 21st May)

Frigate "Plymouth" damaged by UXB and cannon (8th June)

7th Group, Helicopter Sqdn including Bell 212's and Chinook. Two Bells to Falklands, both lost -

8th Fighter Group
(Grupo 8) Mirage IIIE's from Comodoro Rivadavia and Rio Callegos, 2 lost

02-08-2005, 05:53 AM
As the war approaches a speedy end this is a convenient place to summarise the British successes against Argentine sea and air forces. None of the "scores" are official, some no doubt are open to argument, and of course only give a limited indication of the contribution made by each of the main front-line units.
All squadron pilots receiving gallantry awards are also listed.

Right - Sea Harriers, the nearest from No 801 NAS (Courtesy - MOD, Navy)


HMS Conqueror Cruiser "GENERAL BELGRANO" sunk
HMS Alacrity Fleet transport "ISLA DE LOS ESTADOS" sunk
HMS Brilliant and HMS Yarmouth Coaster "Monsunen" driven aground


HMS Hermes, No.800 Sea Harriers Trawler "NARWAL" sunk
Fleet transport "Bahia Buen Suceso" damaged
Transport "Rio Carcarana" damaged
Patrol ship "Rio Iguaza" beached
HMS Antelope, No.815 Lynx Transport "RIO CARCARANA" destroyed
HMS Antrim No.737 Wessex
HMS Brilliant No.815 Lynx
HMS Endurance and
Plymouth No.829 Wasps Submarine "Santa Fe" disabled
HMS Coventry and
Glasgow, No.815 Lynx Patrol vessel "Alferez Sobral" damaged



HMS Hermes, No.800 Sea Harriers:

Lt Cmdr A D Auld (DSC) RN 2 Daggers [a50, a51]
Lt Cmdr G W J Batt (post DSC) RN -
Lt Cmdr M S Blissett (MID) RN Skyhawk [a36]
Lt Cmdr R V Frederiksen (MID) RN Dagger [a38]
Lt M Hale RN Dagger [a49]
Flt Lt J Leeming RAF Skyhawk [a43]
Flt Lt D H S Morgan (DSC) RAF 2 Skyhawks [a67, a68]
Lt C R W Morrell (MID) RN 1‚Ĺ Skyhawks [a42, a44]
Flt Lt R Penfold RAF Dagger [a7]
Lt D A Smith (MID) RN Dagger [a52], Skyhawk [a69]
Lt Cmdr N W Thomas (DSC) RN Skyhawk [a37]
3 Pucaras [a2,a3,a4], 1‚Ĺ Pumas [a45, a47], Agusta 109A [a46]

HMS Invincible, No.801 Sea Harriers:

Flt Lt P C Barton RAF Mirage [a5]
Lt W A Curtis (post MID) RN Canberra [a8]
Lt S R Thomas (DSC) RN Mirage [a6], 2 Daggers [a39,a40]
Cmdr N D Ward (DSC) AFC RN Pucara [a35], Dagger [a41], Hercules [a65]
‚Ĺ Puma [a47]


HMS Ardent ‚Ĺ Skyhawk [a44]
HMS Brilliant 3 Skyhawks [a16, a17, a18]
HMS Broadsword probably Dagger [a34]
HMS Coventry Puma [a15], 2 Skyhawks [a54,a56]
HMS Exeter 2 Skyhawks [a63,a64], Learjet [a66], Canberra [a70]
HMS Fearless or Intrepid Skyhawk [a57]
Naval bombardment Skyvan [a12]
Royal Marines Puma [a1], Aermacchi [a59]

.... by BRITISH ARMY and RAF

San Carlos Water defences 3 Skyhawks [a48, a53, a55]
T Bty, 12 Air Defence Regt RA Dagger [a61]
2 Para Pucara [a60]
D Sqdn SAS 7 Pucaras [a20-a25, a33], 4 Mentors [a26-a29], Skyvan [a30]
1(F) Sqdn RAF Harrier GR.3's Chinook [a31], Puma [a32]
Sqdn Ldr J J Pook (DFC) RAF -
Wing Cdr P T Squire (DFC) AFC RAF -

02-08-2005, 05:56 AM

By Shelby G. Spires

It was a bitter sweet time for the United States Air Force's only Vietnam ace after he blew his first MiG out of the sky on May 10, 1972.
It was on that day then-Capt. Steve Ritchie, USAF, not only scored his first MiG-21 kill but lost his good friend and squadron mate Maj. Bob Lodge to enemy fire.
"We were going to meet a flight of MiG-21s head on, and we did meet MiGs head on back then," now retired U.S. Air Force Reserve Brig.Gen. Ritchie said. "We knew the MiGs would be orbiting in a confirmed area, and we were going after them."
For several days intelligence and mission planners of the 432nd Tactical Fighter/Recon naissance Wing has been gathering data on the aircraft type, location and flight patterns of the Russian made aircraft, Ritchie said. They were looking to protect the bombers on the kickoff to the original Linebacker assault. May 10, 1972 was one of the more important days of the war. It was the most intense day of air combat during the Vietnam conflict, many feel.
Ritchie and his air combat crew brethren were tired of taking it from the MiG drivers. It was Air Force's turn to give it back to the North Vietnamese.
That day, in Oyster flight, Ritchie was flying in the number three slot of a four aircraft flight. Their job was to draw the orbiting MiGs away from another flight of F-4s that were to drop laser guided bombs on a Hanoi target.
The mission was part of the Linebacker campaign -- which was a series of intensive bombing sorties on North Vietnam designed to bring them to the Paris peace table.
"We were orbiting at about 300 feet, about 30 miles west of 'Bullseye' or Hanoi," Ritchie said. "Then we picked up the MiGs orbiting northwest of Hanoi."
The plan was to monitor the MiGs until the pilots of the Russian aircraft moved to attack the incoming strike force, Ritchie said.
"Bob Lodge was leading the flight in Oyster One, and I was the deputy flight leader in the number three position," Ritchie said "The plan called for lead and two to fire at the MiGs head on at a range of about seven miles."
The F-4s went head on with the MiG-21s and as planned Lodge and his wingman fired off their radar controlled AiM-7 Sparrow missiles. The pilots got their warbling tones, and after pressing the triggers the Sparrows dropped from the underside Phantom missile wells. Locking onto the radar beam, the missiles accelerated to terminal speed and sought their targets -- a pair of MiG-21s.
Homing in on the enemy aircraft, the Sparrows did their jobs that day -- a rare thing during the Vietnam War because the radar missiles had a reputation for being unreliable. The MiGs were blown out of the sky when the missiles explosions tore into the thin metal fuselage of the aircraft.
Two others were left. Ritchie said the flight went after the remaining MiGs.
"We turned as hard as we could to get behind the MiGs," he said. "At that point I managed to get a lock on one of the remaining planes and I fired off two missiles."
Ritchie said the missiles were fired at the minimum limit of their radar parameters. The second Sparrow exploded under the third MiG. The expanding steel of the the blast fragmented -- doing its job and thrashing the MiG full of holes. Smoking, venting fuel and on fire, the MiG began a death spiral to the ground below. The pilot managed to eject.
Meanwhile, Lodge and his backseater Roger Locher, were intent on knocking out a fourth MiG, Ritchie said. "We saw a flight of MiG-19s coming in from behind readying for an attack on Oyster One," Ritchie said. "We screamed over the radio for them to break off the attack, but as happens even with the best pilots they had what we call `target fixation' on that last MiG."
The incoming MiGs pounced on Lodge and Locher. The attacking pilots pressed the triggers activating the MiG-19s powerful cannons, and covered the American Phantom with 37mm cannon fire. A tough machine the Phantom, but the blasts were too much for it. The rounds pummeled the twin engine fighter; the beating was incredible, and the machine was flipped over. Lodge and Locher were stuck in a death trap. Ritchie said he saw the American fighter plummeting out of the sky upside down and on fire.
Ritchie said the last MiG-21 along with the MiG-19s chased the rest of the Oyster flight out. Locher managed to eject, but Lodge was battling the aircraft, and rode it in.
"With over 400 missions, they were considered the best aircrew in Southeast Asia by some," he said. "It just goes to show you what can happen even with the most experienced crews."
The story doesn't end with Ritchie. Locher managed to eject. The canopy was bubbling from the heat of the aircraft fire. He called Lodge on the intercom and told him he was leaving the aircraft. Ejecting, Locher managed to get out of the aircraft safely, intact. Important back then because the Phantom ejection seat -- the Martin-Baker -- had a nasty habit of tearing off legs and arms snagged during the ejection process.
Locher hit the ground running -- literally. The weapons system operator came down in a bowl like basin. He fell back on his escape and evasion training, and what is one of the most magnificent stories of the war, Locher managed to evade capture by the North Vietnamese. After 23 days in the jungles of North Vietnam, Roger Locher was rescued. "That was a great day when we snatched him from the jungle, but it was still a bitter sweet time because of the loss of (Lodge)," Ritchie said.
Ritchie went on to blow four more MiG-21s out of the communist held skies of North Vietnam -- making him the only Air Force ace pilot to come out of the Vietnam war.
"I am the only ace pilot to shoot down five MiG-21s, and the day after I shot down the last one, there was an order waiting for me. It instructed me not to fly any more. They (DoD officials) felt like, since I was the only MiG-21 ace, that if I were to be shot down it would be a great propaganda victory."
Almost three decades later, the environment has changed in the United States Air Force.
"The planes we have today," Ritchie said after a ride in an F-16, "are a quantum leap over what we had when I flew in Vietnam."
The training today's fighter pilots also rank with the craft they fly -- the best, Ritchie said. It was not always that way. When Ritchie was coming through pilot training conventional "wisdom" of the time dictated that there was not need for air combat maneuvering. No need to practice the 50 years of lessons learned since men and machines took to the skies to wage war over the Flanders Field in France. Aircraft designers of the time thought the mighty missile would do everything that was needed.
Men paid for those lessons with their blood and freedom.
Ritchie remembered the times with a tinge of bitterness to his voice. "Until I was over Hanoi, I never saw a dissimilar aircraft," Ritchie said. "We just didn't train that way 30 years ago."
One of the reasons training was hampered back then, Ritchie said, was because Air Force officials felt like danger involved in that type of aerial maneuver training would cause in-flight accidents.
"But that just isn't so," Ritchie said. "We train our pilots with aggressor squadrons and dissimilar aircraft and our pilots are better trained and the accident rate is lower now than it was then."
In a letter to Air Force officials, after he returned from Vietnam, Ritchie and other combat pilots recommended several changes to the way the Air Force trains pilots. One of those recommendations, he said, was the use of aggressor squadrons.
"Soon after that, the Air Force began flying the `Red Flag' missions out at Nellis (Air Force Base, in Nevada)," he said.
Ritchie said the lessons learned from Vietnam lead to the stunning victories in the Persian Gulf War.
"You bet it did," he said. "We basically did everything wrong in Vietnam and did everything right in the Gulf," he said. "We were sent to Vietnam and told to fight, but we were not allowed to win. That is immoral."

02-08-2005, 06:04 AM


Nguyen Van Coc /9/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Pham Thanh Ngan /8/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Hong Nhi /8/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt 1.
Mai Van Cuong /8/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Van Bay /7/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Dang Ngoc Ngu /7/ (6) 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt 2.
Vu Ngoc Dinh /6/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Tiem Sam /6/ 927th "Lam Son" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Nhat Chieu /6/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Ngoc Do /6/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt 3.
Nguyen Doc Soat /6/ 927th "Lam Son" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Dang Kinh /6/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Ba Dich /6/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Luu Huy Chao /6/ (8) 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt 4.
Le Thanh Dao (Le Thanh Do) /6/ 927th "Lam Son" Fighter Rgt 5.
Le Hai /6/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Vo Van Man /5/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Phan Van Tuc /5/ 921st & 923rd Fighter Rgt
Pham Ngoc Loan /5/ 921st "Sao Dao" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen Van Nghia /5/ 927th "Lam Son" Fighter Rgt
Nguyen The Hon /5/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Ngo Duc Hai /5/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Kyong Hai /5/
Hoang Van Ky /5/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt
Guen Doc /5/ 927th "Lam Son" Fighter Rgt 6.
Cao Thanh Tinh /5/ 923rd "Yen The" Fighter Rgt

02-08-2005, 06:40 AM
Post WW2 Ace's.
Last revised: 28 December 1999

Nicolai V. Sutyagin 22 Korea USSR
Yevgeny G. Pepelyaev 19(23?) Korea USSR
Alexandr P. Smortzkow 15 Korea USSR
L. K. Schukin 15 Korea USSR
D. P. Oskin 14(11?) Korea USSR
M. S. Ponomaryov 14(11?) Korea USSR
S. M. Kramarenko 13 Korea USSR
Sutzkow 12 Korea USSR
N. K. Sheberotov 12 Korea USSR
S. A. Bakhayev 11 Korea USSR
N. G. Dokashenko 11 Korea USSR
G. U. Ohay 17(6 WW2) Korea USSR
Pomaz 11 Korea USSR
D. A. Samoylov 10 Korea USSR
M. S. Milaushkin 10 Korea USSR
G. I. Pulov 10(8?) Korea USSR
Mikhail I. Mihin 9 Korea USSR
S. P. Subbotin 9 Korea USSR
H. V. Zabelin 9 Korea USSR
G. I. Ges 8(9?) Korea USSR
S. A. Fedorets 7(8?) Korea USSR
N. N. Babonin 7 Korea USSR
I. M. Zaplavnev 7 Korea USSR
L. M. Ivanov 7 Korea USSR
A. S. Boitsov 6 Korea USSR
B. V. Bokatz 6 Korea USSR
V. M. Hvostontsev 6 Korea USSR
Nikolai Ivanov 6 Korea USSR
A. P. Nikolayev 6 Korea USSR
P. F. Nikulin 6 Korea USSR
F. A. Shebanov 6 Korea USSR
S. F. Vesshnyakov 6 Korea USSR
N. M. Zameskin 6 Korea USSR
B. S. Abakumov 5 Korea USSR
A. T. Bashman 5 Korea USSR
V. I. Belousov 5 Korea USSR
G. N. Berelidze 5 Korea USSR
G. I. Bogdanov 5 Korea USSR
N. I. Gerasimenko 5 Korea USSR
S. D. Danilov 5 Korea USSR
G. F. Dmitryuk 5 Korea USSR
Anatoli M. Karelin 5 Korea USSR
N. L. Korniyenko 5 Korea USSR
A. M. Kochegarov 5 Korea USSR
V. L. Lepikov 5 Korea USSR
S. I. Naumenko 5 Korea USSR
B. A. Obraztsov 5 Korea USSR
Olenitsa 5 Korea USSR
Prudnikov 5 Korea USSR
B. N. Siskov 5 Korea USSR
N. K. Shelamanov 5 Korea USSR
N. I. Shkodin 5(3?) Korea USSR

Joseph McConnell 16 Korea USA
James Jabara 16.5(1.5 WWII) Korea USA
Manuel J. Fernandez 14.5 Korea USA
George Davis Jr. 21(7 WWII) Korea USA
Royal N. Baker 16.5(3.5 WWII) Korea USA
Fredrick Blesse 10 Korea USA
Harold E. Fischer 10 Korea USA
Vermont Garrison 17.33(7.33 WWII) Korea USA
James Johnson 10(1 WWII) Korea USA
Lonnie R. Moore 10 Korea USA
Ralph S. Parr Jr. 10 Korea USA
Cecil G. Foster 9 Korea USA
James F. Low 9 Korea USA
James P. Hagerstrom 14.5(6 WWII) Korea USA
Robinson Risner 8 Korea USA
George I. Ruddell 8 Korea USA
Clifford D. Jolley 7 Korea USA
Francis Gabreski 34.5(28 WWII) Korea USA
Donald E. Adams 6.5 Korea USA
Geroge L. Jones 6.5 Korea USA
Winton W. Marshall 6.5 Korea USA
John F. Bolt Jr. 12(6 WWII) Korea USA
James H. Kasler 6 Korea USA
Edwin L. Heller 9(3.5 WWII) Korea USA
William T. Whisner 21(15.5 WWII) Korea USA
Robert P. Baldwin 5 Korea USA
Richard S. Becker 5 Korea USA
Stephen L. Bettinger 5 Korea USA
John F. Bolt 12(5 WWII) Korea USA
Guy P. Bordelon 5 Korea USA
Clyde A. Curtin 5 Korea USA
Ralph D. Gibson 5 Korea USA
Iven C. Kinchloe 5(10?) Korea USA
Robert T. Latshaw 5 Korea USA
Robert H. Moore 5 Korea USA
Dolphin D. Overton III 5 Korea USA
William H. Wescott 5 Korea USA
Guy Bordelon 5 Korea USA
Harrison R. Thyng 10(5 WWII) Korea USA
Philip E. Colman 9(5 WWII) Korea USA
Walker M. Mahurin 23.5(20 WWII) Korea USA
Van E. Chandler 8(5 WWII) Korea USA
John C. Meyer 26(24 WWII) Korea USA
John W. Andre 5(4 WWII) Korea USA
John W. Mitchell 11(7 WWII) Korea USA
Glenn T. Eagleston 2(18.5 WWII) Korea USA
Lowell K. Brueland 12.5(10.5 WWII) Korea USA
Philip Cunliffe De Long 11.17(9.17 WWII) Korea USA
William J. Hovde 10.5(9.5 WWII) Korea USA
John J. Hockery 7(6 WWII) Korea USA
Robert Wade 8(7.5 WWII) Korea USA
Benjamin H. Emmert Jr. 6(5 WWII) Korea USA
William E. Lamb 6(5 WWII) Korea USA
James W. Little 6(5 WWII) Korea USA
Herman W. Visscher 6(5 WWII) Korea USA
Dewey F. Durnford 6.83(6.33 WWII) Korea USA

John MacKay 12.2(11.2 WWII) Korea Canada
J. Lindsay 9(7 WWII) Korea Canada

Chszao Bao-tun 9 Korea China
Van Hai 9 Korea China
Lee Khan 8 Korea China
Lu Min 8 Korea China
Fan Vanchszou 8 Korea China
Sun Shanku 6 Korea China

Kam Den Dek 8 Korea North Korea
Kim Di San 6 Korea North Korea

Nguyen Toon (?) 13 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Van Coc 9 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Mai Van Cuong 8 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Hong Nhi 8 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Phan Thanh Ngan 8 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Van Bay 7 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Dan Ngoc Ngu 7 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Luu Huy Chao 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Vu Ngoc Dinh 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Le Hai 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Ngoc Do 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Nhat Chieu 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Le Thanh Dao 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Dang Kinh 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Ngueyn Doc Soat 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Van Nghia 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguyen Tiem Sam 6 Vietnam PR Vietnam

Randy Cunningham 5 Vietnam USA
Steve Ritchie 5 Vietnam USA
Robin Olds 17(12 WWII) Vietnam USA

Giora Aven (Epstein) 17 Middle East Israel
Yiftah Spector 15 Middle East Israel
Amir Nahumi 15 Middle East Israel
Asher Snir 13.5 Middle East Israel
Abraham Shalmon 13.5 Middle East Israel
John F. McElroy 13.5(10.5 WWII)Middle East Israel(Canada)
Ya'akov Richter 11.5 Middle East Israel
Israel Baharav 11 Middle East Israel
Dror Harish 11 Middle East Israel
Oded Marom 11 Middle East Israel
Shlomo Levi 10 Middle East Israel
Yehuda Koren 9 Middle East Israel
Eitan Carmi 9 Middle East Israel
Shlomo Egozi 8 Middle East Israel
Ilan Gonen 8 Middle East Israel
Uri Gill 7.5 Middle East Israel
Menachem Enian 7.5 Middle East Israel
"Y"(Name Witheld) 7 Middle East Israel(USA)
Yirmiahu Kadar 7 Middle East Israel
Amos Amir 7 Middle East Israel
Ran Ronen (******) 7 Middle East Israel
Rudy Augarten 6(2 WWII) Middle East Israel(USA)
Moshe Hertz 6.5 Middle East Israel
Ehud Hankin 6+ Middle East Israel
Yoram Agmon 6 Middle East Israel
Uri Even-Nir 6 Middle East Israel
Aviem Sela 5+ Middle East Israel
Herzl Bodinger 5+ Middle East Israel
Ezra "Babban" Dotan 5 Middle East Israel
Ben-Ami Peri 5 Middle East Israel
Itamar Noiner 5 Middle East Israel
Eitan Peled 5 Middle East Israel
Ariel Cohen 5 Middle East Israel
Giora Rom 5 Middle East Israel

?? 6 Middle East Egypt
Ali Wajai? 5 Middle East Egypt
?? 5 Middle East Egypt
?? 5 Middle East Egypt
?? 5 Middle East Egypt

Majid Zugbi 6 Middle East Syria
Jur Abid Adib 5 Middle East Syria
Majdat Halabi 5 Middle East Syria

Mohammad M. Alam 9 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan
Syed Saad Hatmi 5 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan

02-08-2005, 07:43 AM
Lt. Randy Cunningham scored his last three victories on 10 May 1972, Capt. Steve Ritchie scored his first on the same day. Stephen Coonts writes another account of that sortie in the book 'War in the Air'. It's called "The Last Ace". The last American Ace....Woolfie, you also list Mohammad M. Alam 9 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan and Syed Saad Hatmi 5 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan. What are the dates, I didn't find them?

02-08-2005, 01:02 PM

The middle of the year 1965 was unquestionably the peak point of the Pakistan Air Force's 40-year history. It brought into focus the fundamental character of this relentless air force when faced, for the first time, with a full scale confrontation with its number one enemy, the Indian Air Force.

Mohammad Mahmood Alam, who was born in 1935 in the state of Bihar, Western Bengal, is so far the top scorer fighter pilot of PAF. In the war of 1965, he shot down 9 Indian planes (5 in one sortie) and damaged another 2. On 6th September, 1965, during an aerial combat over enemy territory, Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam in an F-86 Sabre Jet, shot down two enemy Hunter aircraft and damaged three others. For the exceptional flying skill and valor displayed by Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat [The Star of Courage]. On 7th September, 1965, Squadron Leader Alam is said to have destroyed five more enemy Hunter aircrafts in less than a minute , which remains a record till today. Overall he had nine kills and two damages to his credit

02-08-2005, 01:09 PM
Syed Saad Hatmi 1965

The armies of the two countries were about equal in numbers, but India enjoyed an overwhelming advantage in the air, having 476 fighters and 60 bombers at the start of the war, against 104 fighters and 26 bombers of the PAF. From the outset, the Pakistani pilots knew that only their intensive training would enable them to successfully defend their airspace. At the time hostilities commenced, No. 33 Wing at Sargodha could field a total of 30 Sabres, of which 22 supplemented their six .50-caliber machine guns with wing-mounted AIM-9 Sidewinder heat-seeking air-to-air missiles. For Squadron Leader Alam, the war began in earnest at 5:30 a.m. on September 2, when he led seven Sabres against Indian troop concentrations reported to be at Jaurian. The Pakistanis saw nothing at first, then Ala, noticed Indian troops hidden in an orchard. He and his pilots strafed the enemy with gunfire and rockets, hitting five tanks and damaging a personnel carrier. Two days later, Alam was flying a low-level reconnaissance mission near the Indian airfield at Jammu when he came under groundfire and his cockpit canopy was shattered. Temporarily blinded by debris, Alam nevertheless maintained control of his F-86 and completed his mission. Spotting Indian artillery positions, he carried out two firing passes before his overheated guns jammed.

Alam led a section of three Sabres in a low-level raid on the Indian airbase at Adampur at dusk on September 6. As they neared their target, a quartet of Hawker Hunters suddnely crossed their Sabres' path at the slightly higher altitude of 500feet. Alam later described the encounter: "I remember thinking what very pretty aircraft werebrand-new Hunters were as I ordered my section to punch tanks. The Hunters also jettisoned their drop tanks, and we turned into each other for combat. The fight didn't last long. I got my sights on the No. 4 Hunter, and after a brief burst, he flicked and went into the ground in a great ball of flame, although I am not certain whether I hit him or not. We were now evenly matched, numerically, although I never fought at such low altitudes again, nor often at such low speeds."

As the twisting dogfight continued, Alam downed another Hunter. At that point, however, the Sabres were low on fuel, and Alam ordered them to disengage. He later learned that, unknown to him at the time, the PAF command had aborted the Adampur strike. As their wingmen made their way back to base, Alam ran into two more Hunters.

"I turned into them and took a shot at the last man at long range," said Alam. "He turned into me, then took off his bank. I think I registered hits - I only saw smoke coming out, but no flames. As a wise man, I thought I should not turn back after him as I was low on fuel. So I crossed the border and climbed up to contact our CGI [ground control intercept] and check my position. I was not sure what had happened to the rest of my flight, and I was relieved to hear that they were all in the vicinity of Sargodha, where I came back and landed. This was the first time we had encountered the Hunters, and any misgivings we had in our minds were resolved that day. In maneuverability, the Sabre was undoubtedly better then the Hunter."

Squadron Leader Alauddin "Butch" Ahmed and Flt. Lt. Syed Saad Akhtar Hatmi, who had accompanied Alam, claimed a Hunter as damaged. Postwar examinations of IAF records mention that Squadron Leader Ajit Kumar Rawley of No. 7 Squadron was killed when his Hunter flew into ground, but the record is vague as to whether or not that was during combat. Other Indian aircraft might have been damaged, but there are no specific records. Discrepancies between claims made in good faith and actual enemy losses date to World War I and apply to all war air combatants. The high-speed encounters of the jet age certainly put more strain on human perception, increasing the likelihood of such discrepancies.

The following day, Alam and some his comrades were of No. 11 sat strapped in the cockpits of their Sabres, waiting to scramble, when seven French-built Dassault Mystere IV-A fighter-bombers of No.1 Squadron, IAF, suddenly came towards them out of the rising sun at tree-top level. As the Pakistani airmen looked up in disbelief, the Mysteres pulled up to about 1,000feet and sprayed the tarmac with rockets - but they only hit the empty areas. They then fired at the same areas with their twin 30mm cannons and disappeared to the southwest, after one of their Mysteres, flown by Squadron Leader A. B. Devayya, was hit by 20mm cannon fire from a Lockheed F-104A Starfighter of No. 9 Squadron, PAF. Devayya was killed, but the victorious Pakistani pilot, Flt. Lt. Amjad Hussein Khan was forced to eject when his F-104 was struck by the debris from his victim's exploding aircraft. The attack had left the vulnerable airfield unharmed.

After the Mysteres departed, Alam and his wingman, Flying Officer Mohammed Masood Akhtar, took off. Within five minutes, they were directed by ground control to intercept another incoming Indian raid. They had only flown eastwards for 10 to 15 miles when they were ordered to return, as still more Indian fighters had appeared over Sargodha.

"As we vectored back towards Sargodha," Alam recounted in a postwar interview, "Akhtar called, 'contact - four Hunters,' and I saw the IAF aircraft diving to attack our airfield. So I jettisoned my [drop tanks] to dive through our own ack-ack after them. In the meantime, I saw two more Hunters about 1,000feet to my rear, so I forgot the four in front and pulled up to go after the pair behind. The Hunters broke off their attempted attack on Sargodha, and the pair turned on me. I was flying much faster then they were at this stage - I must have been doing about 500 knots - so I pulled up to avoid overshooting them and then reversed to close in as they flew back towards India."

"I took the last man and dived behind him," Alam's report continued, "getting very low in the process. The Hunter can outrun the Sabre - it's only about 50 knots faster, but has much better acceleration, so it can pull away very rapidly. Since I was diving, I was going still faster, and as he was out of gun range, I fired the first of my two Sidewinder air-to-air missiles at him. In this case we were too low and I saw the missile hit the ground short of its target. This area east of Sargodha, however, has lots of high tension wires, some of them as high as 100-150 feet, and when I saw the two Hunters pull up to avoid one of these cables, I fired the second Sidewinder. The missile streaked in front of me, but I didn't see it strike. The next thing I remember was that I was overshooting one of the Hunters and when I looked behind, the cockpit canopy was missing and there was no pilot in the aircraft. He had obviously pulled up and ejected and then I saw him coming down by parachute."

Alam's alleged victim, Squadron Leader Onkar Nath Kacker, was the commander of No. 27 Squadron, IAF, based at Halwara. After being returned to India, he claimed that he had flown 150 kilometers east of Sargodha when his engine stopped due to a boaster pump failure. It is possible that anything from mechanical failure to fragment's from Alam's exploding Sidewinder might have been responsible for the loss of Kacker's plane, but certainly Alam's perception of his going down near Sargodha was erroneous.

At that point, Alam lost sight of the remaining five Hunters, but he had plenty of fuel left and was prepared to fly as far as 60 miles in an attempt to catch up with them. Alam and his wingman had just flown over the Chenab river when Akhtar called out, "Contact - Hunters 1 o'clock." Alam immediately spotted them - ans as he described it: "five Hunters in absolutely immaculate battle formation. They were flying at about 100-200 feet, at around 480 knots and when I was in gunfire range, they saw me. They all broke in one direction, climbing and turning steeply to the left, which put them in loose line astern. This of course was their big mistake‚‚ā¨¬¶."

What happened next occurred very quickly. "We were all turning very tightly - in access of 5g or just about on the limits of the Sabre's very accurate A-4 radar ranging gunsight," Alam reported " And I think before we had completed more than about 270 degrees of the turn, at about 12 degrees per second, all four Hunters had been shot down. In each case, I got the piper of my sight around the canopy of the Hunter for virtually a full deflection shot. Almost all of our shooting throughout the war was at very high angles off - seldom less then 30 degrees. Unlike some of the Korean combat films I had seen, nobody in our war was shot down flying straight or level."
Alam knew that downing four enemy aircraft in less then one minute was a feat that took some explaining. "I developed a technique of firing very short bursts - around half a second or less," he said. "The first burst was almost a sighter, but with a fairly large bullet pattern from six machine guns, it almost invariably punctured the fuel tanks so that they streamed kerosene. During the battle of September 7, as we went around into a turn, I could just see, in light of the rising sun, the plumes of fuel gushing from the tanks after my hits. Another half-second burst was then sufficient to set fire to the fuel, and, as the Hunter became a ball of fire, I would quickly shift my aim forward to the next aircraft. The Sabre carried about 1,800 rounds of ammunition for its six 0.5 inch guns, which can therefore fire about 15 seconds. In air combat, this is lifetime. Every fourth or fifth round is an armor-piercing bullet, and the rest are HEI - high explosive incendiary.

"My fifth victim of this sortie started spewing smoke and then rolled on to his back at about 1,000 feet. I thought he was going to do a barrel role, which at low altitude is a very dangerous maneuver for the pursuer if the man in front knows what he is doing. I went almost on my back and then realized I might not be able to stay with him, so I took off bank and pushed the nose down. The next time I fired was at very close range - about 600 feet or so - and his aircraft virtually blew in front of me.

"Hunter pilots won't believe it," remarked Alam. "I have flown the Hunters myself in England, and they are very maneuverable aircraft , but I think the F-86 is better. Actually the Sabre has a fantastic turning performance. Although the normal stalling speed with flap is about 92 knots or less in a descending scissors maneuver, between 100 and 120 knots is quite normal speed range to rack the Sabre around in combat‚‚ā¨¬¶.

"In a turn the Hunter slows down more quickly then the F-86 for the same application of g. for one thing, it has a much higher aspect ratio - in other words, the lower the speed, the higher the induced drag. This means the Hunter losses speed faster then the Sabre in a turn because of its higher drag rise, which the extra thrust can not counter. So in the turn I steadily closed up on the Hunters, which quickly decelerated from about 450 knots to around 240 knots, and would have had to pull about 7g to get away from me. As it was they just slid back into my sight, one by one."

Later, the Pakistanis found the wreckage of two of Alam's victims a few miles from the Sangla Hill railroad station, along with the bodies of their pilots - identified as a Hindu and a Sikh but otherwise too badly burnt for individual identification. The IAF later reported the loss of Squadron Leader S. B. Bhagwat and Flying Officer J. S. Brar of No. 7 Squadron. Alam's two other claims were evidently more examples of overclaiming in the heat of combat. His remaining antagonists, Wing Commander Toric Zacharaiah (the commander of the No.7 Squadron) and Flt. Lts. Ajit S. Lamba and Manmoham S. Sinha, returned to their base safely. Lamba and Sinha later went on to become air marshals of the IAF.

Alam's third and last air-to-air clash with the IAF occurred on September 16, when he and Flying Officer Mohammed I. Shaukat entered enemy airspace and were detected by the Indians flying 10 miles from the airfields of Halwara and Adampur. Two Hunters scrambled to intercept them. Alam reported the situation to the GCI at Sakesar and was asked if he wanted to engage the Indians, since his wingman had no more than 80 hours flying time in the Sabre and 19 combat missions in his logbook. "Now we are here," Alam replied. "We've got to fight."

"They were flying very fast," Alam reported afterwards. "We were doing about Mach .8 but they must have been diving at around Mach .95 or more. They couldn't stay in our turn, so they zoomed up in a yo-yo maneuver. When I reversed back they both pulled through from there, and we dived behind them until at about 13-14,000 feet they separated in a vertical break."

Alam went after the climbing Hunter and engaged it at about 20,000 feet. His frst burst of gunfire missed, but second scored a hit. "At the third burst he became a ball of flame," Alam said, "so I turned back and looked for my wingman‚‚ā¨¬¶. Then suddenly I lost all radio contact with him, although I could see him in the distance and I saw the Hunter break away from him."

"The Hunter saw me," Alam continued, "and although he was close to his base, he didn't accept combat. He turned away from me and accelerated rapidly in a dive, although I followed as closely as possible behind him. I knew we were approaching close to the airfield of Halwara and suspected a trap, but then he did a loose sort of a roll to clear his tail, so he had obviously lost me. I had a good 5-6,000 feet below him, at about Mach .94 - .95, and when I felt that he was slowing down, I fired a Sidewinder at him. There was something wrong with the missile, however, as it turned through 90 degrees soon after its release."

"I continued diving after him, however, and then released my second Sidewinder, which scored a hit on his right wing root. As it began to smoke, I saw that we were crossing the Halwara Canal and as I was well inside Indian territory and getting a bit short of fuel, I immediately half-rolled and dived down to tree top level. When I hit the River Ravi, which marks the border between India and Pakistan, I climbed up to conserve fuel, feeling very miserable at having lost my No.2."

Although Alam had not seen the second Hunter crash, the PAF credited him with both planes, for his eight and ninth victories of the war. As in the earlier cases, one of the Alam's victim survived to give his own description of the fight. When the PAF's F-86s were reported, Flying Officer Prakash S. Pingale and F. Dara Bunsha of No. 7 Squadron scrambled up from Halwara. Pingale reported that he got behind the first Sabre, which turned south, then spotted the second "at about 4 o'clock at a range of about 1,000 yardsand about to fire on us." He then told Bunsha to "go for Sabre No. 1," while he engaged the other.

"Sabre No.2 attempted to shake me off by pulling up into the sun," Pingale said. "He also jettisoned his external loads and pulled up steeply as a last ditch maneuver to make me overshoot him, perhaps by the use of leading edge slats‚‚ā¨¬¶. I was able to open fire at about 350-400 yards. The aircraft literally exploded in front of me."

At that point, Pingale saw saw Bunsha engaging in scissors maneuver with Alam's F-86. He radioed a warning to Bunsha that the Sabre held the advantage in such a fight. But Bunsha was going down in flames by the time he intervened. "Seeing me coming towards him Sabre No.1 left my No. 2 and turned towards me," Pingale continued. "As we crossed head-on, he opened fire on me‚‚ā¨¬¶. As I reversed to engage Sabre No. 1 in 1 vs. 1 combat, to my utter dismay I found that instead of fighting with me he had half-rolled and was speedily trying to get away in a vertical dive. I attempted to close in but lost contact with Sabre No. 1 because I blacked out due to excessive g (around 8-10 as recorded by my g-meter)." As he returned to Halwara, Pingale could not recall seeing his Pakistani opponent ever fire a missile at him, but he later admitted that his preceptions were somewhat impaired by the pain of a slight back injury he had sustained after being hit by ground fire and bailing out a few days earlier, aggravated by the effects of his high-g turn. Pingale was rewarded the Vir Chakra for his valor in September 16 dogfight and is currently the inspector general of the IAF.

Just before his Sabre exploded in flames, Shaukat ejected at 12,000 feet over the eastern Punjabi village of Taran Taran. He was shot by civilians, who mistook him for a paratrooper, before reaching the ground and being taken prisoner. He was then taken to a hospital, where an Indian surgeon removed a .303 caliber bullet and some shotgun pellets from his body.

After being released in a prisoner exchange in February 1966, Shaukat rejoined the No. 11 Squadron. Inspite of his misfortune on September 16, 1965, he recently stated: " I still consider‚‚ā¨¬¶M.M. Alam as an example of professional leader and a great human being. It was through his untiring effort that I became an operational fighter pilot in the F-86F well ahead of my many course mates and took part in the 1965 war. We should appreciate that Alam took with him an inexperienced pilot like me with only 80 hours on the F-86F as his only wingman and flew deep into the Indian territory and invited the IAF to fight in their sky. He was a source of inspiration and encouragement for many professional pilots in the PAF."

Shaukat later served in the Turkish air force as part of the Exchange Posting Program between the air arms of the North Atlantic Treaty and its allies. He was a flight lieutenant and had accumulated 1,200 hours flight time in the F-86 by the time East Pakistan became the independent state of Bangladesh in December 1971. At that point, however, Shaukat who had been born and raised in the eastern Bengali district of Bogra, chose to become a citizen of the new nation and joined the Bangladesh Air Force as a flight commander in its only fighter squadron. He subsequently took the Junior Commander's Course in India and studied at the RAF Staff College in Britain. Mohammad Shaukat-ul Islam applied his leadership training as commander of a squadron of Mikoyan-Gruevich Mig-21s, a wing and an air base. He flew 13 different types of aircraft before retiring with the rank of group captain in 1982. After that he served nine years as managing director of Biman (Bangladesh Airlines) and as chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority of Bangladesh.

02-08-2005, 01:11 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I also found these stat's...


name victories war country
================================================== =========================
Randy Cunningham 5 Vietnam United States
Richard Ritchie 5 Vietnam United States
Robin Olds 4(16) Vietnam United States
Charles DeBellvue 6* Vietnam United States
William Driscoll 5* Vietnam United States
Jeffery Feinstein 5* Vietnam United States

Toon (Tomb?) 17?(13?) Vietnam PR Vietnam
Nguygen Van Bay 7 Vietnam PR Vietnam

Middle East Wars

name victories war country
================================================== =========================
Giora E? 17 Middle East Israel
Asher Snir 13 Middle East Israel
*(withheld by request) 7 Middle East Israel (USA)
Giora Rom 5 Middle East Israel
Ron Ronen 4? Middle East Israel

Mohammad M. Alam 9 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan
Syed Saad Hatmi 5 Indo-Pakistani Pakistan

02-08-2005, 01:17 PM
Might be from IRAN / IRAQ war? Who knows?


Rayyan, M. 6 kills 1 FRS IrAF +1 Damaged


Zandi, Jalal 9 kills IrIAF TFB8, 82TFS/TFB6
Hoda, A. 6 kills IrIAF 91TFS/TFB3

02-08-2005, 01:37 PM
Zyzbot... since very little has come out on print... facts about one of the biggest Clashes of Arms since WW2 are hard to find.
Most is only the View of the War printed by either side that is fulled with Propaganda.

Iran-Iraq War 1980-1990

Rayyan, M. 6 1 FRS IrAF +1 D
Sabah, Ali 4 IrAF
Goben, Omar 2 23 FS IrAF +1 D
Salem, Ahmad 2 17 FS IrAF
al-Dinmaruf, Tariq 1 IrAF

Iran-Iraq War 1980-1990

Zandi, Jalal 9 IrIAF TFB8, 82TFS/TFB6
Hoda, A. 6 IrIAF 91TFS/TFB3
Afshar 4 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8,TFB7,82TFS/TFB6,73TFS/TFB1
Sedghi 4 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Sharifi-Raad, Yadollah 4 IrIAF TFB2
Javadpour 2 IrIAF TFB2
Ala'i (WO) 3 +1D IrIAA
A., H. 3 +1D IrIAF TFB6,81TFS/TFB8
Khosrodad, M. 3 IrIAF TFB8
Qiyassi 3 IrIAF 82TFS/TFB6
Shafi 3 +1D IrIAA
Bayani, Siavash 2 IrIAF TFB1
Esmaeli 2 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Hashemzadeh (WSO) 2 IrIAF TFB1
Jowshan 2 IrIAF TFB1
K., H. F. 2 IrIAA
K., N. 2 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Malek 2 IrIAF
Rhanavard 2 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Rostami, Shahram 2 IrIAF TFB8
T., H. 2 IrIAA
Abbasi 1 IrIAF FTFB3
Adibi 1 IrIAF TFB6
Afkhami 1 +1D IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Agha 1 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Akhbari 1 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Amiraslani 1 IrIAF 82TFS/TFB6
Ata'ie 1 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Azimi 1 +1U IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
A., A. 1 IrIAF 62TFS/TFB6
A., C. 1 IrIAA
A., M. R. 1 IrIAA
A., P. 1 IrIAF TFB7
Bozorgi, H. 1 IrIAF TFB4
Dehghan 1 IrIAF 82TFS/TFB8
Ebrahimi 1 IrIAF TFB.2
Hassibi 1 IrIAF 11TFS/TFB6
Hazin 1 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Mahloudji 1 IrIAF 31TFS/TFB4
Mofidi 1 IrIAF 31TFS/TFB4
Rassi 1 IrIAF TFB6
Salarie 1 IrIAF TFB3
Sarlack 1 IrIAF TFB3
Sehati, Esma'il 1 IrIAA
Sahra'I, S. (WO) 1 IrIAA
Solarie 1 IrIAF 31TFW/TFB4
Yassini 1 IrIAF TFB6
Zaghi 1 IrIAF 81TFS/TFB8
Zarif-Khadem, K. 1 IrIAF TFB2
Fatahi 0 +1D IrIAF TFB3
D : Damaged
U : Unconfirmed
WO : Weapons Officer
WSO : Weapon System Officer

02-08-2005, 01:46 PM
If they ever ban copy 'n' paste posts what will you do?

02-08-2005, 02:16 PM
I wouldn't have beleived it if I hadn't seen it with me own glassies

02-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Quote... commie1
posted Tue February 08 2005 12:46
If they ever ban copy 'n' paste posts what will you do?


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">TYPE IT! But what happens to your Signature?</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

02-09-2005, 08:31 PM
Well Dave's what is the verdict? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

02-09-2005, 08:55 PM
Thanks woolfiedog.
name victories war country
================================================== =========================
Randy Cunningham 5 Vietnam United States
Richard Ritchie 5 Vietnam United States
Robin Olds 4(16) Vietnam United States
Charles DeBellvue 6* Vietnam United States
William Driscoll 5* Vietnam United States
Jeffery Feinstein 5* Vietnam United States

the last three names were the back-seaters, right? I know Willie Driscoll was Randy's.

02-09-2005, 09:03 PM
This topic deserves a Fonzie

02-09-2005, 09:08 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

02-09-2005, 10:42 PM
Capt. Charles de Bellevue

The F-4 Phantom's sofisicated electronics suite practically dictated the use of a second crew member, the "Wizzo" or Weapons System Officer, who was not a pilot. During Vietnam, this created a problem in tallying dogfight victories. In WWI, the pilot and the gunner were given credit for kills scored by two-seat aircraft. After the war, this policy was changed and both the pilot and gunner were credited with only a portion of the kill.. During Vietnam, the policy was changed yet again. Air Force Chief of Staff General John J. Ryan declared that both the GIB (Guy In the Back) and the pilot would recieve full credit for each kill. When the F-4 entered combat duty in Vietnam the possibility that the "Wizzo" (Weapons System Officer), not a pilot, might become the leading ace became a reality when Capt. Charles de Bellevue, who was particularly talented as a Weapons System Officer, scored six kills. At the same time, Capt. Steve Ritchie was the leading Air Force ace pilot with 5 kills. De Bellevue was in the back on four of Ritchie's kills.

The result of this controversy was an adamant request by pilots that future fighters be single-seaters. In the F-15 and F-16 the work of the WSO is done by computers but, the F-14 is still a two-seat fighter.

USAF F-4E kills
Since my site is only about F-4E's I have listed F-4E kills only.

Date Kill Weapon Squadron Wing Crew & position

05/23/72 MiG-19 AIM-7 35 TFS 366 TFW LTC Lyle L. Beckers/AC
CPT John F. Huwe/P
05/23/72 MiG-21 GUN 35 TFS 366 TFW CPT Jmes M. Beatty JR./AC
1LT James M. Sumner/P
05/31/72 MiG-21 AIM-9 13 TFS 432 TRW CPT Bruce G. Leonard JR /AC
CPT Jeffery S. Feinstein /P
06/02/72 MiG-19 GUN 58 TFS 432 TRW MAJ Philip W. Handley/AC
1LT John J. Smallwood/P
06/21/72 MiG-21 AIM-9 469 TFS 388 TFW LTC Von R. Christiansen/AC
MAJ Kaye M. Harden/P
07/08/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 4 TFS 366 TFW CPT Richard F. Hardy/AC
CPT Paul T. Lewinski/P
07/08/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 555 TFS 432 TRW CPT Richard S. Ritchie /AC
CPT Charles B DeBellevue /P
07/08/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 555 TFS 432 TRW CPT Richard S. Ritchie /AC
CPT Charles B DeBellevue /P
07/29/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 4 TFS 366 TFW LTC Gene E. Taft/AC
CPT Satnley M. Imaye/P
08/01/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 58 TFS 432 TRW CPT Lawrence G. Richard/AC
LTCDR Michael J. Ettel/P
08/15/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 336 TFS 8 TFW CPT Fred W. Sheffler/AC
CPT Mark A. Massen/P
08/19/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 4 TFS 366 TFW CPT Sammy C. White/AC
1LT Frank J. Bettine/P
09/02/72 MiG-19 AIM-7 34 TFS
388 TFW MAJ Jon I. Lucas /AC
1LT Douglas G. Malloy /P
09/12/72 MiG-21 A9/gun 35 TFS 388 TFW LTC Lyle L. Beckers /AC
1LT Thomas M. Griffin /P
09/12/72 MiG-21 GUN 35 TFS 388 TFW MAJ Richard L. Retterbush /AC
1LT Daniel L. Autrey /P
09/12/72 MiG-21 AIM-9 555 TFS 432 TRW CPT Calvin B. Tibbett /AC
1LT William S. Hargrove /P
10/05/72 MiG-21 AIM-7 34 TFS 388 TFW CPT Richard E. Coe /AC
1LT Omri K. Webb /P
10/06/72 MiG-19 Ground 34 TFS 388 TFW MAJ Gordon L. Clouser /AC
1LT Cecil H. Brunson /P
10/06/72 MiG-19 Ground 34 TFS 388 TFW CPT Charles D. Barton /AC
1LT George D. Watson /P
10/08/72 MiG-21 GUN 35 TFS 432 TRW MAJ Gary L. Retterbush /AC
CPT Robert H. Jasperson /P
10/15/72 MiG-21 AIM-9 34 TFS 432 TRW MAJ Robert L. Holtz /AC
1LT William C. Diehl /P
10/15/72 MiG-21 GUN 307 TFS 432 TRW CPT Gary M. Rubus /AC
CPT James L. Henderickson /P

EAVES STEPHEN D CPT 555 TFS 1 72/05/10 WSO MIG 21 F 4D AIM-7
ESKEW WILLIAM E CPT 354 TFS 1 67/04/19 P MIG 17 F 105D 20 MM
EVANS ROBERT E 1LT 555 TFS 1 66/04/23 P MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
FEIGHNY JAMES P JR 1LT 435 TFS 1 68/02/14 P MIG 17 F 4D AIM-7
FRYE WAYNE T LTC 555 TFS 1 72/05/12 AC MIG 19 F 4D AIM-7
GAST PHILIP C LTC 354 TFS 1 67/05/13 P MIG 17 F 105D 20 MM
GEORGE S W 1LT 555 TFS 1 66/04/23 P MIG 17 F 4C AIM-7
GILMORE PAUL J MAJ 480 TFS 1 66/04/26 AC MIG 21 F 4C AIM-9
GLYNN LAWRENCE J JR 1LT 433 TFS 1 67/01/02 AC MIG 21 F 4C AIM-7
GOSSARD HALBERT E 1LT 555 TFS 1 66/04/29 P MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
GRAHAM JAMES L MAJ 333 TFS 0.5 67/12/19 EWO MIG 17 F 105F 20 MM
GRIFFIN THOMAS M 1LT 35 TFS 1 72/09/12 WSO MIG 21 F 4E AIM-9/20 MM
GULLICK FRANCIS M CPT 555 TFS 1 67/06/05 P MIG 17 F 4D AIM-7
HAEFFNER FRED A LTC 433 TFS 1 67/05/13 AC MIG 17 F 4C AIM-7
HANDLEY PHILIP W MAJ 58 TFS 1 72/06/02 AC MIG 19 F 4E 20 MM
HARDEN KAYE M MAJ 469 TFS 1 72/06/21 WSO MIG 21 F 4E AIM-9
HARDGRAVE GERALD D 1LT 555 TFS 1 66/04/30 P MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
HARGROVE JAMES A JR MAJ 480 TFS 1 67/05/14 AC MIG 17 F 4C 20 MM
HARGROVE WILLIAM S 1LT 555 TFS 1 72/09/09 WSO MIG 21 F 4D 20 MM
HIGGINS HARRY E MAJ 357 TFS 1 67/04/28 P MIG 17 F 105D 20 MM
HILL ROBERT G CPT 13 TFS 1 68/02/05 AC MIG 21 F 4D AIM-4
HIRSCH THOMAS M MAJ 555 TFS 1 67/01/06 AC MIG 21 F 4C AIM-7
HODGDON LEIGH A 1LT 555 TFS 1 72/03/01 WSO MIG 21 F 4D AIM-7
HOLTZ ROBERT L MAJ 34 TFS 1 72/10/15 AC MIG 21 F 4E AIM-9
HOWERTON REX D MAJ 555 TFS 1 69/02/14 AC MIG 17 F 4D 20 MM
HOWMAN PAUL D CPT 4 TFS 1 73/01/08 AC MIG 21 F 4D AIM-7
HUNEKE BRUCE V 1LT 13 TFS 1 68/02/05 P MIG 21 F 4D AIM-4
HUNT JACK W MAJ 354 TFS 1 67/04/19 P MIG 17 F 105D 20 MM
HUSKEY RICHARD L CPT 433 TFS 1 68/01/03 P MIG 17 F 4D 20 MM
HUWE JOHN F CPT 35 TFS 1 72/05/23 WSO MIG 19 F 4E AIM-7
JAMESON JERRY W 1LT 555 TFS 1 66/09/16 AC MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
JANCA ROBERT D MAJ 389 TFS 1 67/05/20 AC MIG 21 F 4C AIM-9
JOHNSON HAROLD E CPT 357 TFS 1 67/04/19 EWO MIG 17 F 105F 20 MM
JONES KEITH W JR CPT 13 TFS 1 72/05/08 WSO MIG 19 F 4D AIM-7
KIRK WILLIAM L MAJ 433 TFS 1 67/05/13 AC MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
KIRK WILLIAM L MAJ 433 TFS 1 67/10/24 AC MIG 21 F 4D 20 MM
KJER FRED D CPT 389 TFS 1 67/04/23 P MIG 21 F 4C AIM-7
KLAUSE KLAUS J 1LT 480 TFS 1 66/11/05 P MIG 21 F 4C AIM-9
KRIEPS RICHARD N 1LT 480 TFS 1 66/07/14 P MIG 21 F 4C AIM-9
KRINGELIS IMANTES 1LT 390 TFS 1 66/05/12 P MIG 17 F 4C AIM-9
KUSTER RALPH L JR MAJ 13 TFS 1 67/06/03 P MIG 17 F 105D 20 MM