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View Full Version : Oleg - One last plea for gunner/limp pilot issue



DEY_Scull_AUS
09-10-2005, 08:10 PM
We all know how it happens, you man the gunner position, you get killed, the pilot goes limp. Please can this be rectified? Why should a gunner being killed count as the pilot becoming a zombie?

Also, it might be my imagination, but pk's in the He-111 seem to happen a lot more these days than they used to. I have given up flying it, coz everytime I do my pilot ends up dead or limp. It often only takes one pass for a P51 or 47 to take out the pilot/gunner - maybe the 50cals have been tweaked for better cockpit penetration or something?

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-10-2005, 08:10 PM
We all know how it happens, you man the gunner position, you get killed, the pilot goes limp. Please can this be rectified? Why should a gunner being killed count as the pilot becoming a zombie?

Also, it might be my imagination, but pk's in the He-111 seem to happen a lot more these days than they used to. I have given up flying it, coz everytime I do my pilot ends up dead or limp. It often only takes one pass for a P51 or 47 to take out the pilot/gunner - maybe the 50cals have been tweaked for better cockpit penetration or something?

Gibbage1
09-10-2005, 09:31 PM
If your having problems with limp pilots, this may not be the forum for you...

Danschnell
09-11-2005, 04:44 AM
HAHA. Maybe he should've used the word dead instead of limp. But seriously, I know what Scull means. I have posted about this before because it is a serious issue. The is no documentary evidence whatsoever from WW2 to suggest that when a gunner was killed that it meant the pilot automatically had to die too.
I resent that my enemies are given the double advantage of killing my gunner and pilot when they kill me in the gunner position.
Some may say 'if you don't want to die, don't go to the gunner position.' But this argument is very weak. When you go to the gunner position YOU ARE STILL THE PILOT so if Oleg expects you to pilot the plane why expect you to be happy with being dead when the cockpit is completely undamaged? Also, why expect people not to go to the gunner position when the AI GUNNERS ARE USELESS? If Oleg had meant for us not to use the gunner positions, he would have at least programmed them to shoot at enemy aircraft at appropriate times.
The whole thing seems seriously wrong. Basically, on online dogfights, when a gunner position dies, the human player should still not be dead.

PBNA-Boosher
09-11-2005, 06:09 AM
Dude, the He-111 has a greenhouse canopy and cockpit! It seems somewhat logical that if a P-51 or whatever goes headon and blasts into the canopy, your pilot will be wounded. It's just logic.

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-11-2005, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
If your having problems with limp pilots, this may not be the forum for you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFL! - left myself open for that one hehe.

Boosher, I agree totally that head-on attacks are likely to cause cockpit damage/pilot death. But I'm talking about attacks from the rear. When you look over your shoulder in the he111 pilot position, you can see a big metal plate wall backing the cockpit, yet it's very common for attacks from the rear to kill the pilot. It happens much more easily than it does when flying the B25. I just think the percentage chance of pilot pk in the heinkell needs to be reduced slightly. I'm sure pk's weren't so common in earlier versions of FB, something has changed.

Danshnell has hit the nail on the head - the enemy gets a double advantage - killing a gunner also kills the pilot - it doesn't make sense. Using the gunner positions is one of the great features of this sim, but it is seriously marred by this issue. A lot of people have posted about it. Personally, I would give up all the features of the new patch just to get this one thing fixed.

LEBillfish
09-11-2005, 09:04 AM
I'm assuming you are talking about flying "online" when in a "Cooperative mission" or similar and jumping from seat to seat getting killed while gunning....As "offline" this does not happen and in DF missions there are no AI.

Personally, I'd vote not to change it.

Now, if you asked that in a coop if you jump seats and get killed, "AI" takes over (meaning also as a pilot like offline)...That I would buy. However, I always viewed playing as a personal thing, as though "what was I as a virtual "individual" able to accomplish". Making it so I have say 7 chances/resets dependant on the plane I have kills that concept.

What I'd really rather see more is the ability to pick a gunner seat and let AI do all the flying. Naturally then you'd be locked in that seat the whole flight.

SeaFireLIV
09-11-2005, 11:32 AM
Yes. I go on with LEBillfish on this. FB has always been about being the `one pilot` or `gunner`. And it does seem to be a bit of a cheat if in COOP multiplayer you could jump in a bomber and just jump from station to station every time you got killed, essentially getting multiple lives where everyone else has only one per flight.

I can see why it`s done this way.

Danschnell
09-11-2005, 02:13 PM
No. I disagree with the multiple lives prevention.

All that stopping gunner death from also being pilot death will do is to restore the aircraft back to its original, historical number of crew lives.

Under current rules, the plane has LESS crew lives than in real life. The pilot always dies at the same time as the gunner, giving the enemy a double advantage.

However, if the pilot didn't die, then the player could keep the plane flying even after the gunner died, as would of course happen in real life, and without giving an unfair advantage to the enemy.

I know some people will say 'but that means the player will be able to chance having two lives when the rest of us only get one.' BUT... are the rest of you BEING TWO PEOPLE AT ONCE? No. You are sitting in your cockpits while we bomber pilots are forced into being our own gunners and pilots too! And the PLANE ITSELF is not getting any more lives than it otherwise would do anyway.

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-12-2005, 05:22 AM
LEBillfish and Seafire, I disagree strongly with your arguments. I would like it so that if I'm pk'd in a gunner position, my screen would go black, the gunner would be rendered useless, but I would still be able to change back to the pilot position. If the pilot was killed while I was in the gunner position, I wouldn't be able to change back to the cockpit at all. You guy's are saying that that equates to 'multiple chances'. It's not multiple chances - the gunner has been rendered useless, just the same as it would have been he was an AI gunner. You guys want two deaths for the price of one.
Killing a gunner shouldn't zombify the pilot, it's just not realistic. Whether the gunner is human or AI shouldn't make any difference.

And I'm not saying that because I'm a bomber buff, I almost always fly fighters. I don't think I deserve an enemy bomber kill just because I've killed one of his gunners, whether it's human or AI.
I'll say it again - if I kill the pilot (human or AI), the plane should lose it's piloting controls.
If I kill a gunner (human or AI), the gunner should be rendered useless.
Killing one shouldn't affect the other.

LEBillfish
09-12-2005, 08:45 AM
DEY_Scull_AUS;

That is not what I said....That led up to:

"Now, if you asked that in a coop if you jump seats and get killed, "AI" takes over (meaning also as a pilot like offline)...That I would buy......................
What I'd really rather see more is the ability to pick a gunner seat and let AI do all the flying. Naturally then you'd be locked in that seat the whole flight."

OR

Even the ability to move around as now EXCEPT when you leave the pilots seat an AI pilot takes over....Get Killed Gunning?.....Now an entirely AI plane.

What you are asking for is the ability say in a He111 to get killed and then move to one of the other 7 positions over and over till none are left.............I'm saying 1 life, AI having taken over the pilot and upon your death fixed there.........and to be clear, on an all AI plane killing a gunner does NOT kill the pilot.

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-12-2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What you are asking for is the ability say in a He111 to get killed and then move to one of the other 7 positions over and over till none are left </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I'm not, because if the pilot gets killed, whether its human or AI, the plane is destined to eventually crash anyway, just like any other single seat aircraft. If the pilot is AI, then the attacking bandit would get the 'enemy aircraft destroyed' credit when the human hit refly. If the pilot is human, then yes, it should be a pk, as it is now. Even this is still slightly unfair, because in RL when a bomber pilot was killed, one of the other crew members would often take over the controls to bring it home, at least over friendly lines where they bailed out.

Kuna15
09-12-2005, 03:56 PM
Simple and historical IMHO: lock the player seat position and that's it. Now that would also ment that player must man pilot position in airquake servers, but that's small price if you ask me.

Alternatives are that player has multiple lives, or that plane crashes because of dead gunner (player).

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Locking player seat positions takes away some enjoyment of flying multiple crew aircraft. At the very least, I would say that if a human gunner is pk'd, then the pilot role should be taken over by AI, which would try to RTB. That would be more realistic than the current 2 deaths for the price of 1 situation. Then for the attacker to get the kill stat, he would have to bring down the AI piloted bomber.

quiet_man
09-13-2005, 04:28 PM
I see no issue giving the bomber guys as many lives as the plane had crew. Put in a small delay for changing seat and disable AI gunners one after the other or wathever.

Realistic? How big are online bomber formations and how many planes have a full player crew???

Why do you want to kick a player out of the game and leave the plane to the ai??? Why do you fly online?

yes it would be an "unrealistic advantage" for bomber players, but why not? At the moment figthers have an much bigger unrealistic advantage.

quiet_man

KG26_Alpha
09-13-2005, 05:01 PM
I'm hoping BoB will have the Pilot setup so we can move around each position in the bombers till all the crew are dead.

Hopefully the "massed" bomber formations will give the bomber pilots some survivability instead of the fighter - bomber ratio we have now which usually leads to a quick death unless you have good escorts and a tight formation.

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-13-2005, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by quiet_man:
Put in a small delay for changing seat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great idea quiet_man http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 12:28 AM
@DEY_Scull_AUS as it is now in PF AI isn't allowed in DM rooms. And probably wont be allowed in the future.

COOPs are different story.

I am just hooping that in BoB things will be done differently as far as bombers (multi crew) aircrafts are concerned.

Then most fair solution is, when player gets killed, he must hit refly *but* the airplane keeps on flying if it isn't sufferend fatal damage, maned by AI.
That scenario should be possible then in COOP and DM.
Also would be nice if we can somehow have some kind of 'switch' so we can choose whether we can be able to change seat positions after death or not. Whatever player prefer.

SeaFireLIV
09-14-2005, 03:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
I'm hoping BoB will have the Pilot setup so we can move around each position in the bombers till all the crew are dead.

Hopefully the "massed" bomber formations will give the bomber pilots some survivability instead of the fighter - bomber ratio we have now which usually leads to a quick death unless you have good escorts and a tight formation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er... this is how it`s MEANT to be. You go out alone as a bomber with no escourt - die.

You go out with a few other bombers in close formation - maybe live.

You go out as a bomber with a few other bombers in close formation with fighter escourt - you LIVE!

Just like real life. Sounds like you`re asking to be MR. Survivor in lone bomber against fighters. Silly and wholly unreal.

And even if you had a delay between gunner seats, someone will pipe up that they don`t like that either.

Get some escorts or and fly in formation with someone else. Let the AI gunner shoot and hope for the best, as a real pilot would do in real life.

DEY_Scull_AUS
09-14-2005, 04:52 AM
@Seafire
Using bomber formations and escort certainly increase the chance of survival (except maybe the poor guy at the rear who always seems to cop it). But bombers in FB seem to be the holy grail, many guys will ignore the escort and go straight for the bombers. They usually don't last very long, but often long enough to put serveral dozen rounds into a bomber. In other words, all bomber pilots get attacked at some stage, whether they fly in formation or alone, with escort or without. Bombers are big, highly visible action magnets. What we're talking about here is how the game should handle a pk when it does happen, not how to avoid being attacked in the first place.
You say rely on the AI gunners and hope for the best. This is exactly what I do when i fly bombers now. But it's a shame when manning the gunners can be so much fun. It's also frustrating hearing them waste lots of ammo spraying at some far off bandit they've got no chance of hitting.
It will be interesting to see how it's all handled with BOB. You guys are probably right when you say it's too late for any major change to be implemented into FB. And I like Kuna's idea of having a switch for 'Gunner afterlife'.

KG26_Alpha
09-14-2005, 06:16 AM
Exactly the point Dey_Skull_Aus

Errrrrrr Seafire..........
Incase you have never flown a bomber "He111 especially" when a human is pilot the AI gunners are useless firing in all directions, they need to be manned to be effective.

One other point for BoB would be to deactivate AI gunners so they dont fire at all giving away your position when trying to be evasive.

S!

Kuna15
09-14-2005, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KG26_Alpha:
One other point for BoB would be to deactivate AI gunners so they dont fire at all giving away your position when trying to be evasive.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. In fact the best defence during night missions was fighters unability to spot bomber formation.
I myself sometimes get night intercept mission. And must say if those Heinkels don't turn their nav lights on and gunners don't fire when we are near I would have hard time to track them down.

Most effective thing online that player can do in bomber when flying night mission is to turn off AI on every gun, so they don't give away bomber position.

quiet_man
09-14-2005, 12:12 PM
a good point about fighter in IL2 attacking without care for themself. A lot of bomber RL defensive power is to keep fighter at distance.

I think an option to join on any free position for bomber and fighter wouldn't hurt at all.

quiet_man