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BillSwagger
08-03-2009, 02:16 AM
whats this.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/p47_20mm_crop.jpg



a P-47 with 20mm gunpods....?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/p47_34_20mm.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Freiwillige
08-03-2009, 03:51 AM
Looks to be a Hispano 20MM alright. Odd I wonder why no streamlined cover?

Gammelpreusse
08-03-2009, 04:24 AM
heh. Imagine a 47 with 8 of these babies in the wings instead of the 50cals. I'd not fly anything else again for the rest of my life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

AllorNothing117
08-03-2009, 07:17 AM
They look like they're attached wierdly... very un aerodynamic.

K_Freddie
08-03-2009, 07:56 AM
Funny thing that... maybe something to do with crop dusting considering the pic name.

Bit late on those trks you posted on the locked topic - yeah, you pulled a little too hard on the stick in both account. The high alt one was gradual as your speed dropped.
The online 'snap' is from a quick pull on the stick - This happens as well on a FW... I use this a lot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
08-03-2009, 08:06 AM
I wonder if they could also be jettisoned when used up, in the event the plane needed more manueverability.
That was probably an option anyway.

There might have been covers for them that were left off for this photo graph, but i don't see how they could be more aerodynamic than they already are.
Probably some field mod so its not the optimum kit either.
Just interesting to know, and they probably used them on tanks.

JtD
08-03-2009, 08:37 AM
I figure they got tired of dropping bombs and wanted to try something new. What's missing on the photo are the two GI's that were strapped to the guns before they were dropped on the enemy.

Interesting find!

Choctaw111
08-03-2009, 09:17 AM
Wow. Where did you find that?
Was it only a prototype? I have never seen this before. Very interesting.

BillSwagger
08-03-2009, 11:21 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/p47_34_1_20mm.jpg

This fighter flew with 20mm cannons and was part of the 8th Airforce, 78th fighter group, dated Oct 1944.

I don't have the source for these, as they aren't my photos, i found them in a search through photobucket.

SILVERFISH1992
08-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Didnt think the P-47 could get any more powerful. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Hurri-Khan
08-03-2009, 12:36 PM
Came across 3pics of the same bird last nite while searching for something else. Luckily I remembered the site..

http://www.ww2incolor.com/us-air-force/?g2_page=13


>>>-H-K--->

general_kalle
08-03-2009, 04:48 PM
somehow i think 8 hispanos would be a tad too heavy... 4 of them is probably enough anyway.
maybe 6 or 4 and 2 machine guns.

BRASSTURTLE
08-03-2009, 09:38 PM
Per Roger Freemans,s Thunderbolt, this was the 78th FG.

Pilot thought it would, "tear the wings off if fired."

For some reason, it came to me that this was an Oldsmobile 20mm cannon. Don't know why.

ImpStarDuece
08-03-2009, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by BRASSTURTLE:
For some reason, it came to me that this was an Oldsmobile 20mm cannon. Don't know why.

Oldsmobile manufactured HS 404 (Hispano Mk II) under license in the US, along with International Harvester and Bendix

Choctaw111
08-03-2009, 11:59 PM
Is that only a 60 round drum?
Was a larger capacity drum for the Hispano ever made?
I would have thought for an installation like this, more ammo would have been carried.
Is 60 rounds enough to justify all of that extra weight and drag?

megalopsuche
08-04-2009, 12:08 AM
I've seen this picture discussed before on other forums, and from what I learned it was not used in combat. There may have been vibration problems or other issues, can't remember what exactly.

If you can't kill something with 8 .50s lord help ya.

Fork-N-spoon
08-04-2009, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/p47_34_1_20mm.jpg

This fighter flew with 20mm cannons and was part of the 8th Airforce, 78th fighter group, dated Oct 1944.

I don't have the source for these, as they aren't my photos, i found them in a search through photobucket.

I cannot see the aircraft in the photo. Since I'm going to assume that it's sitting stationary on the ground, the aircraft in the photograph must be early American stealth technology. And to think that some will tell you that the Horten brothers and quite possible Jack Northrop were on the scene first...

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
I've seen this picture discussed before on other forums, and from what I learned it was not used in combat. There may have been vibration problems or other issues, can't remember what exactly.

If you can't kill something with 8 .50s lord help ya.


the problem with forum discussions is they are based largely on speculation. I would like to see sources on these photographs and its intended use, and if it did see combat.

I'm sure the calipers that normally hold drop tanks or bombs, would be sturdy enough to hold the 20mm steady while it fired, but maybe they could.

Friendly_flyer
08-04-2009, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Oldsmobile manufactured HS 404 (Hispano Mk II) under license in the US, along with International Harvester and Bendix

Wasn't that the ill-fated M2 with the stoppage problem that did not get resolved until electrical firing appeared after the war?

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
somehow i think 8 hispanos would be a tad too heavy... 4 of them is probably enough anyway.
maybe 6 or 4 and 2 machine guns.

I've read that pound for pound, the 20mm and 50 cal are about the same weight.
The weight advantage is gained when using the 20mm, because its guns are more effective.
With 4 guns you've just reduced about 320lbs in gun weight.

If i were already use to packing the weight of 8 guns, then i would choose to continue carrying 8 20mm.

20mm ammo is nearly twice as heavy per round (including the casings, and fillers), however it might not be necessary to carry as much ammo if the rounds are more effective.
From a mass perspective, you probably couldn't fit the same amount of 20mm rounds in the wing anyhow, so you'd probably end up with the same amount of weight with the max ammo load out, give or take a few pounds.

Its an awesome thought of 8 20mm.

Kocur_
08-04-2009, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
a P-47 with 20mm gunpods....?


Yup, one of US planes field-mods including 20 mm M2 cannon. I saw somewhere a pic of B-17 with 20 mm M2 in one of stations.


Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Is that only a 60 round drum?
Was a larger capacity drum for the Hispano ever made?

Yes it was, in... Switzerland http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif In late WW2 or right after, the Swiss had 150 round double-drum magazine ("Doppeltrommelmagazin" most probably along lines of MG 15 magazines), which they used in C-36xx planes for the engine cannon.
But the largest Allies magazine for Hispano was 60 rounds. Belt feed came along soon enough not to pursue larger magazines.
In that particular installation belt would be too much, as belt feeder required somewhat more sophisticated installation (where it was stationary, while the cannon recoiled back providing energy) plus there would be problem with storing worthwhile length belt.


Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I've read that pound for pound, the 20mm and 50 cal are about the same weight.
The weight advantage is gained when using the 20mm, because its guns are more effective.

.50 M2 and 20mm M2 were nowhere near being equal in weight! The former weighted 29 kg (plus hydraulic charger, a pound or two), while the latter weight with all peripherals necessary for belt feeding was 61 kg. Add the cartridges more than twice as heavy.
And still the cannon was more weight-effective! No brainer, since on the bussiness end a Hispano was worth 3 to 4,86 (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm) fifty-cals.

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 06:39 AM
i was just looking at the weight of the guns.
The guns them selves including the barrels:
50 cal 38.1kg
20mm 42kg.
I'm not sure about the rest of the hardware.

Kocur_
08-04-2009, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
The guns them selves including the barrels:
50 cal 38.1kg

Umm, that would be land-used M2HB. Aerial version of .50 M2 was considerably lighter.



20mm 42kg.


That might be 'bare' Hispano Mk V or perhaps 20 mm M3.
Anyway, usuable wing-mounted .50 M2 weighted 29 kg, and 20 mm M2 61 kg.

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 02:51 PM
i tried looking for the ANM2 but the only mention of lighter weight was in mention of an interchangeable barrel, that also lightened the gun to 60 some pounds.

id be curious to know what the actual weight was if you have it.

Kocur_
08-04-2009, 03:54 PM
The lightest of US Hispanos was US Navy's Mk 12, weighting 88 lbs/40 kg, but it was 1950s already.