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danjama
07-11-2007, 08:45 AM
I'm wondering does anybody have any good pics of Willi Heilmann's Dora, Yellow 6? If so i would like to see them. Google does not turn any out. I have just read his book and was inspired by his final goodbye to his "favourite Focke". I'm not sure how much truth is in the book but it's a good read nonetheless.

Thanks for replies.

leitmotiv
07-11-2007, 08:50 AM
See Caldwell's JG26 regarding Heilmann:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=JG+26&sts=t&y=0&x=0

Farran1966
07-11-2007, 10:10 AM
I have read the Caldwell book, which is very good; I am also reading "Alert In The West", presently. From what I remember Caldwell only raises issue with how Heilmann finishes his story and the disbanding of his squad.

I guess there are going to be inaccuracies in any text of this nature to a more or lesser degree; Indeed Galland raises this very subject at the beginning of Caldwells book, stating that it contains some errors.

danjama
07-11-2007, 03:30 PM
thanks guys i may try an get hold of that book. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Still, anyone have pics? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

leitmotiv
07-11-2007, 09:52 PM
I have never seen any phots of Heilmann's 190s. There is a Schiffer publication of the Doras of JG54, I believe.

Caldwell fundamentally questions Heilmann's honesty as a narrator noting that his account does not tally with documents, and that Heilmann does not have a good reputation within the German fighter pilots' community.

danjama
07-12-2007, 07:40 AM
Hey Leit, wow that's a shame because he tells the story quite well, but i was skeptical too as some things just seem too overdone and too accurate/detailed. I'll take it at face value i think, read it and that's the end of it. I'll have a look for any books on JG54!

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 11:21 AM
That Heilmann book was one of my favorites for years. Get the paperback JG26 by Caldwell and read his comments. Double check everything!!!! I'll see if I can find that Schiffer JG54 Dora book.

slipBall
07-12-2007, 01:44 PM
There seems to be no known photo's....that is a shame http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif, maybe you can draw some info from this....good that you are back at the zoo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/ScreenHunter_01Jul1215.40.jpg



Camouflage and Markings of the Fw 190 D-9
"Yellow 6" - WNr.500648 - 9./III./KG(J) 27:


An Interpretation


Research by David E. Brown, Experten Inc.
Copyright 2000.

Although no photographs of this aircraft have yet been discovered, this unique profile is based upon mostly factual data. Some of its features are interpretative in nature but are themselves founded on known facts, photographs and such. Given that this is a speculative profile of an existing aircraft, the reasoning and evidence upon which it is based is presented below for the reader's reference.

Luftwaffe strength returns indicate that Fw 109 D-9's were used by III. Gruppe, Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) 27 during the last months of the war. Loss reports reveal that on 1 April 1945 III./KG(J) 27 lost two Fw 190 D-9's in combat, these being:

WNr.500648 - 9./III./KG(J) 27 - "Yellow 6" - Crashed during combat, 01-04-45. Ref: Luftwaffe General Quartermeister Report - GenQuAbt 6.
WNr.500658 - 9./III./KG(J) 27 - "Black 12" - Crashed during combat, 01-04-45. Ref: Luftwaffe General Quartermeister Report - GenQuAbt 6.

Interestingly, based on its Werknummer, 500648, "Yellow 6" immediately followed two Fw 190 D-9s on the production line that photographic evidence confirms were equipped with the large Ta 152-type wooden tail:

WNr.500645 - ?/.I./JG 2 - (Code unknown) - Discovered burnt out in northern Germany. Wooden Ta 152 tail. 08-05-45. Ref: Smith & Creek, Monogram Close Up-10 "Fw 190 D" (1 photo).
WNr.500647 - 7./II./JG 26 - "Brown 4" - Found abandoned at Hustedt. Wooden Ta 152 tail. 08-05-45. Ref: Urbanke "Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora-9" (2 photos).

While the exact number of the small group of Doras fitted with the large wooden tail is unknown, the above facts indicates that it is highly probable "Yellow 6" also was fitted with the same large tail as was its stable mates.

Like other German fighter aircraft, late-production Fw 190 Ds manifest the reality of dispersed production of major aircraft components. The majority of these items were painted to varying degrees prior to delivery prior for final construction at specific assembly sites. There, they would be given a minimum overspray of camouflage paints to provide both a modest level of protection (where and if required) and a softening of the contrasts between the previously painted components. Mimetall (Erfurt) produced aircraft from the mid- to late-production portion of the 500000 Werknummer series well display these features, especially those in the 500550 Â* 500700 range. Aircraft from the late production 211900 (~50 a/c) and 212100 ~70 a/c) Werknummer series also reveal similar attributes.

"Yellow 6's" camouflage and markings were in all probability the same as other late-production 500000-Werknummerseries Doras. The well known colour photograph of the 6./II./JG 6 Dora "Black 12", WNr.500570 indicates that its undersides and fuselage were painted the green-blue variation of 76, fuselage spine and engine cowling in 81 Braunviolett and with an 81 Hellgrün overspray on the forward cowling and rear fuselage insert. The rudder appears to have been painted a light coat of standard 76 Lichtblau over a base coat of 75 Mittlegrau. Wing camouflage was a modified splinter pattern of 81 and the green-blue variation of 76. This camouflage scheme is consistently seen in photographs of other later production 500000-series Doras (with minor variations), selected examples including:

WNr.500613 - 10./III./JG 26 - "Black 10" - Found at Celle, repaired: Ref: C. Hildebrandt, "Broken Eagles 1 - Fw 190D" (4 photos).
WNr.500636 - 1./I./JG 6 - "White 16" - Found abandoned at Bayreuth-Bindlach. Ref: J.V. Crow Collection (1 photo Â* unpublished).
WNr.500638 - 5./II./JG301 - "White 12" - Found at Langensalza. Ref: J.V. Crow Collection (6 photos - unpublished).
WNr.500647 - 7./II./JG 26 - "Brown 4" - Found abandoned at Hustedt. Wooden Ta 152 tail. 08-05-45. Ref: A. Urbanke "Green Hearts: First in Combat with the Dora-9" (2 photos).
WNr.500666 - 7./II./JG 301 - "Yellow 15" - Found at Straubing. Ref: C. Hildebrandt, "Broken Eagles 1 - Fw 190D" (1 photo), and J.V. Crow Collection (1 photo - unpublished).

Little documentary evidence exists on the various Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) units beyond lost listings and strength returns, and personal recollections and documents. All knowledge on these units' markings is inevitably based on fragmentary photographic, pilot flight book and third person narrative data. While the suspected "Reichsverteidigungs Markings Order" for Kampfgeschwader (Jagd) units has not been discovered, evidence presented by S. Radtke in his book "Kampfgeschwader 54" suggests that it must have been issued by Gen. Dietrich Peltz on or about 15 March 1945. In assigning various colour and style bands to the existing KG(J) units it no doubt closely followed the 28 February 1945 order for Jagdgeschwaders issued by Goering, As discussed below, the following are unit and colour associations that are currently known and/or interpreted:

KG(J) 6: black / red
KG(J) 27: green / white?
KG(J) 30: unknown
KG(J) 54: blue / white
KG(J) 55: unknown

Photographic data and third person narrative commentaries confirm that KG(J) 6 and 54 wore black / red and blue / white RV karobands (chequerbands) of two different sizes respectively. While there is not definitive information on this latter point, the fact that small karobands (600 mm wide) are observed exclusively on Me 262s infers that these markings were for use on operational aircraft only. Conversely, the large karobands (900 mm wide) would be applied to training aircraft, which in most cases were propeller-driven aircraft such as Bf 109 G-6/10/14's, Bf 109 K-4's, Fw 190 A-8/9's and Fw 190 D-9's, and occasionally, Me 262's (e.g. WNr.17030? "Yellow 3+I" of 9./KG(J) 54 (Experten Decals 2A), and a variation seen on the Me 262 "Yellow 2+" of 3./KG(J) 54 (T. Poruba Collection - unpublished photos).

Since the bands assigned to KG(J) 6 and 54 are almost certainly confirmed, there remains the identity of the unit that wore the green / white karoband seen in the often published colour photograph of the wrecked Bf 109 G-10/AS "Yellow 3+" (WNr.78????) discovered at Kaufbeuren. The candidate units for this aircraft include KG(J) 27, 30 & 55. Of these, KG(J) 30 can probably be ruled out. Except for a few Bf 109 G-14's in its II. Gruppe, it exclusively used Fw 190 A-7/8's for training associated with the "Mistel" program. KG(J) 30 did not officially disband until 18 April 1945. KG(J) 55 is also unlikely to have worn the green / white band. It operated mostly Bf 109 G-6/14's and Fw 190 A-7/8's for training purposes. However, while dominated by these aircraft types, its use of Bf 109 G-10's cannot be ruled out at this time.

This leaves KG(J) 27 as the possible owner of the green / white karobands. Strength and loss reports from January to April 1945 show that it used Bf 109 G-10's & K-4's (St., I. & II. Gruppen) and Fw 190 A-9 & D-9's (III. Gruppe). It officially disbanded on 9 April 1945. The Kaufbeuren Bf 109 "Yellow 2" fits very well within this data as from its engine, fuselage and tail features it is identified as a G-10/AS. Significantly, is also a I. Gruppe aircraft. While it appears a limited number of propeller-driven aircraft from the various KG(J) units wore their assigned Karobands, photos, those that did appear to be from units that were well along in their bomber-to-fighter pilot conversion training: KG(J) 6, 27 and 54. It is very probable that given bomber units'well known adherence to markings orders and directives on the proper display of unit and tactical markings, at least some of KG(J) 27's aircraft would have worn the unit's RV Karoband. Thus, by process of elimination and deductive reasoning it appears possible that the unit's Reichverteidigungband was a green / white karoband.

On the subject aircraft "Yellow 6", it is suggested that it could have worn the large 900mm wide green and white KG(J) 27 karoband representative of a training aircraft. While the style and size of the "6" is unknown, it could very well have been the same style of the Bf 109 G-10/AS "Yellow 2" from the unit's I. Gruppe. It is probable that KG(J) 27 maintenance staff would have applied a III. Gruppe bar to the aircraft to complete its prescribed markings.

In summary, "Yellow 6's" Werknummer, Verbandekennzeichen, camouflage and markings schemes and ultimate fate are all known facts. Its Werknummer indicates that it was the next aircraft on the production line after at least 2-3 previous aircraft that can be proven through photographs to have had the wooden Ta-152 type tail. Its camouflage and markings colours and schemes can confidently be inferred through photographs of related aircraft in the late-500000 Werknummer-series. As an active training unit, circumstantial evidence would suggest it was likely at least some of KG(J) 27's aircraft wore the assigned (presumably) green / white RV karobands. And finally, intelligent assumptions can be made on the style of the yellow "6" and the likelihood that the aircraft had a III. Gruppe bar.

Therefore, the balance of probabilities, based on deductive reasoning of the various facts, observations and interpretations indicates that the above profile may be considered a reasonable representation of "Yellow 6's" original appearance.

danjama
07-12-2007, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
good that you are back at the zoo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Thanks slipball, and bloody nice job with the research, that is much more detail than i was expecting, and a great looking profile to match! The read is very interesting! From the look they have come up with, i can see why Yellow 6 was Heilmann's love, shes a beautiful bird.

This thread will be saved, fantastic block of info mate, thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Oh and i find it very strange that there are no photos at all around http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 07:59 PM
http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0887406904

http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/

danjama
07-13-2007, 10:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm in England though, but i will find them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

slipBall
07-13-2007, 04:57 PM
i can see why Yellow 6 was Heilmann's love, shes a beautiful bird.



A very good looking aircraft indeed! Maybe over the winter I will read his writing's, unless of course, SOW is released first http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Zorin1984
07-13-2007, 05:47 PM
FBS made a Black 6 Dora, its sitting in my skins folder.

Plus some profiles and photographs:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/D9.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/d92.jpg

http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/Black12.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/gal23_016.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/gal23_020.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/gal23_022.jpg

http://modelscale.free.fr/profils/Fw190D_RJR/img2.jpg

http://modelscale.free.fr/profils/Fw190D_RJR/img3.jpg

danjama
07-14-2007, 01:07 PM
Thanks Zorin, Dortenmann is another favourite of mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif