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View Full Version : MG 151 15MM (inspired by fifty cal. thread)



Grand_Armee
09-24-2007, 12:41 AM
Okay, I've a question: Is there any explosive effect of the ammunition fired by this gun?

I honestly don't know, but have never seen any burst as I've flown through campaigns in IL2, FB, or 46.

BTW...I'll be the first to tell you my aim sucks.

Friendly_flyer
09-24-2007, 12:51 AM
I think (think min you, I don't know) that the 15mm fires a solid copper jacked slug, like the M2 does.

Waldo.Pepper
09-24-2007, 01:04 AM
The world is complex.

http://www.zshare.net/download/38192777ba8c4a/

Grand_Armee
09-24-2007, 01:08 AM
Dammit Waldo, this isn't just about finding information it's about relationship building!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Manu-6S
09-24-2007, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I think (think min you, I don't know) that the 15mm fires a solid copper jacked slug, like the M2 does.

I agree.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 02:28 AM
The effect of the 15mm in the game seems exactly the same as a single 50cal to me. It even sounds the same.

Its a bit more effective becasue of its centre mounting you are generally always hitting at convergeance.

Schwarz.13
09-24-2007, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I think (think min you, I don't know) that the 15mm fires a solid copper jacked slug, like the M2 does.

I disagree (but that doesn't mean i'm right). I was always under the impression that what defined a 'cannon' (with regards to modern weapons) was the explosive ammunition. i found this:

"The Germans were not satisfied with the MG-FFM, which had been adopted as an interim measure pending the development of a purpose-designed cannon. This duly emerged as the Mauser MG 151, which gradually took over from 1941. Initially, the Mauser had been designed to use a high-velocity 15 mm cartridge, but it saw relatively little service in this form. Wartime experience led to the cartridge case being modified to accept the 20 mm shells from the MG-FFM, surrendering muzzle velocity and penetration in the interests of far greater destructive effect. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">The 15 mm version was available with HE shells</span>, but they were considered too small. The resulting MG 151/20 was intermediate in size, weight and muzzle velocity between the MG-FFM and the Hispano, but was faster-firing at 12 rps. It was a superb design which the Americans tried to copy, producing some 300 guns in .60 inch (15.2 mm) calibre, designated T17, but they never adopted it."

from here (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm)

and this:

"This places a certain lower limit on the calibre of the gun. HEI projectiles were available in HMG (heavy machine gun: 12.7-15mm) and even RCMG (rifle calibre: 7.5-8mm) but these little bullets could contain only small quantities of chemicals. It was generally concluded that the smallest shell-firing calibre really worth bothering with was the 20mm cannon. <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">This was demonstrated by the Luftwaffe, which much preferred the 20mm version of the MG 151 to the 15mm, despite the higher velocity (and therefore hit probability and armour penetration) of the smaller calibre, and the fact the HE and incendiary versions of the 15mm were available.</span> The Soviet Air Force similarly showed an increasing preference for the 20mm ShVAK over the lighter and faster-firing 12.7mm Berezin."

from the same site here (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ideal.htm)

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-24-2007, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The effect of the 15mm in the game seems exactly the same as a single 50cal to me. It even sounds the same.

Its a bit more effective becasue of its centre mounting you are generally always hitting at convergeance.

Has a better tracer too.

JG53Frankyboy
09-24-2007, 03:04 AM
i doubt that anything changed in the gamecode of these two weapons since Maddox gave us this info:

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

VW-IceFire
09-24-2007, 11:02 AM
So half of the MG151/15's belting is HE and half is AP. Interesting...but the HE should have a relatively weak effect if this size of bullet wasn't effective for explosives right? The .50 is even stranger in the belting...APIT is fine and we know AP was mixed in with API rounds but what is that HE doing there. I remember from another thread that HE rounds were purely experimental in the .50cal. It may have something to do with balancing something out in the engine...still...I'd be curious what would happen if that HE were removed and a API round was added.

Xiolablu3
09-24-2007, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The effect of the 15mm in the game seems exactly the same as a single 50cal to me. It even sounds the same.

Its a bit more effective becasue of its centre mounting you are generally always hitting at convergeance.

Has a better tracer too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes for sure.

I wish the .50 had better tracer and better 'speckles' when the target is hit, like the .303's.

Its on my wish list for SOW series.

VMF-214_Pappy
09-24-2007, 03:39 PM
Yes .50cal i think is effecitive its just hard to see where they are going and if they are hitting unless a full deflection shot.

JG53Frankyboy
09-25-2007, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
So half of the MG151/15's belting is HE and half is AP. Interesting...but the HE should have a relatively weak effect if this size of bullet wasn't effective for explosives right? The .50 is even stranger in the belting...APIT is fine and we know AP was mixed in with API rounds but what is that HE doing there. I remember from another thread that HE rounds were purely experimental in the .50cal. It may have something to do with balancing something out in the engine...still...I'd be curious what would happen if that HE were removed and a API round was added.

im actually beliving that anything exploding (HE, MG shells) is more effectiv with the given Damage Modell calculation than any AP....... perhhaps API would be different.

but thats a pure guess, no prove http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cajun76
09-25-2007, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I think (think min you, I don't know) that the 15mm fires a solid copper jacked slug, like the M2 does.

I disagree (but that doesn't mean i'm right). I was always under the impression that what defined a 'cannon' (with regards to modern weapons) was the explosive ammunition. <snip> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what happens to the "cannon" when AP rounds are fired? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif IIRC, cannon is an indication of caliber, not ammo. For air mounted weapons anyway, the distinction seems to be 20mm. As you pointed out, 15mm had some HE rounds, as did 12.7mm and even .303, IIRC.

Waldo.Pepper
09-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Cannon is an indication of nothing. It is an arbitrary term.

Cajun76
09-25-2007, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Cannon is an indication of nothing. It is an arbitrary term.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Everything is arbitrary. It's all made up, even the names for dogs and cats. But as far as I know, 20mm is considered the beginning of cannon for aircraft. It's a reference point.

Waldo.Pepper
09-25-2007, 12:49 PM
Everything is arbitrary.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Well if you're gonna get all philosophical on my arse ... what I suppose I should have said was that the milimeter selection 12 - 20, whatever - was an arbitrary selection.

Xiolablu3
09-25-2007, 01:32 PM
I am sure I recall the USA looking at .60 calibre as a aircraft gun, while they were having trouble with their Hispano.

VW-IceFire
09-25-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
So half of the MG151/15's belting is HE and half is AP. Interesting...but the HE should have a relatively weak effect if this size of bullet wasn't effective for explosives right? The .50 is even stranger in the belting...APIT is fine and we know AP was mixed in with API rounds but what is that HE doing there. I remember from another thread that HE rounds were purely experimental in the .50cal. It may have something to do with balancing something out in the engine...still...I'd be curious what would happen if that HE were removed and a API round was added.

im actually beliving that anything exploding (HE, MG shells) is more effectiv with the given Damage Modell calculation than any AP....... perhhaps API would be different.

but thats a pure guess, no prove http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats a fair guess to make given what we've seen from other weapons in the past so I cannot disagree with you there.