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MAILMAN------
03-24-2007, 03:01 PM
I was attempting to set up a semi-historical(map limitation) dogfight map to represent Operation "Cockpit" the joint USS Saratoga & HMS Illustrious task group that attacked the Oil Refineries and Port Facilities at Sabang, Island in Northern Sumatra in April 1944.
HMS Illustrious embarked RN Squadrons 1830, 1833 & 1837 who flew the Corsair II and were escorts to the USS Saratoga's F6F-3 Hellcats and TBM Avengers.
From the deck of the static HMS Illustrious the first spawn point is at the 500 foot mark on the flight deck. I have unchocked and rechocked the wheels so that I am flush on the deck, loaded 50% fuel, trimmed rudder nose right degrees, right wing 6 degrees down, nose 3 degrees up, 120 fuel mixture, cowl flaps closed, cockpit closed, tail wheel locked and various flap settings and raising the landing gear at the end of the flight deck. I have also reduced the fuel to 25% fuel. The results are the same, drop, stall and landing gear catches the water before retracting.
I have taxiied back to 540 feet, tried all of the above setting and could only get airborne with 25% fuel loaded.
Is there a way to change the spawn point on the carrier for the first aircraft to be further aft than the default spawn point?
Is this a useless carrier for launching the Corsairs on a dogfight map?
I have the patience to taxi towards the back, but envision multiple collisions with spawning players.

JG53Frankyboy
03-25-2007, 03:47 AM
using a trick with testbase4 you can set the spwnpoint to the back of the carrier.

look here

[MAIN]
MAP CoralSea/Online_load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[NStationary]
0_Static ships.Ship$HMSIllustriousCV 1 20396.15 29797.79 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
1_Static ships.Ship$HMSIllustriousCV 1 20178.26 29797.64 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
2_Static ships.Ship$HMSIllustriousCV 1 20199.70 29000.89 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
3_Static ships.Ship$RwyTransp 1 19637.87 29002.36 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
8_Static ships.Ship$HMSIllustriousCV 1 20220.60 28427.26 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
4_Static ships.Ship$USSCVGeneric 1 20108.56 18157.28 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
5_Static ships.Ship$USSCVGeneric 1 19997.79 14003.51 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
6_Static ships.Ship$RwyTransp 1 19459.89 13995.88 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
7_Static ships.Ship$USSCasablancaCVE55 1 20052.65 6204.82 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
9_Static ships.Ship$USSCasablancaCVE55 1 20239.93 4926.21 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
10_Static ships.Ship$RwyTransp 1 19697.07 4917.01 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
11_Static ships.Ship$USSEssexCV9 1 32996.14 15984.55 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
12_Static ships.Ship$USSEssexCV9 1 33250.30 15984.88 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
13_Static ships.Ship$RwyTransp 1 32390.29 15982.44 360.00 0.0 0 2 1.0
[Buildings]
[BornPlace]
1 3000 19637 29002
1 3000 20178 29797
1 3000 20220 28427
1 3000 19459 13995
1 3000 20108 18157
1 3000 19697 4917
1 3000 20052 6204
1 1050 32390 15982
[BornPlace0]
F4F-4
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
SeafireMkIII
SeafireFMkIII
[BornPlace1]
F4F-4
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
SeafireMkIII
SeafireFMkIII
[BornPlace2]
F4F-4
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
SeafireMkIII
SeafireFMkIII
[BornPlace3]
F4F-4
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
SeafireMkIII
SeafireFMkIII
[BornPlace4]
F4F-4
CorsairMkII
F6F-3
SeafireMkIII
SeafireFMkIII
[BornPlace5]
F4F-4
FM-2
F6F-3
[BornPlace6]
F4F-4
FM-2
F6F-3
[BornPlace7]
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
[Bridge]
[House]


but anyway, the only realy usefull carrier on dogfihtmaps should be the Saratoga class, its the longes by far.......... the UK carrier is no good choice, true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

stansdds
03-25-2007, 05:45 AM
Static carrier takeoff? No thanks.

This is straight from the F4U-1/-1A/early -1D flight manual.

Takeoff runs at sea level:
0 knots head wind = 680 feet @ 11,700 pounds gross weight. That's about 190 gallons of internal fuel and no external ordnance.

15 knots head wind = 450 feet @ 11,700 pounds gross weight.

I'm thinking that your carrier needs to be moving in order to launch Corsairs.

JG53Frankyboy
03-25-2007, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by stansdds:
Static carrier takeoff? No thanks.

This is straight from the F4U-1/-1A/early -1D flight manual.

Takeoff runs at sea level:
0 knots head wind = 680 feet @ 11,700 pounds gross weight. That's about 190 gallons of internal fuel and no external ordnance.

...........

the flightdeck of the HMS Illustrious was 670ft long. http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ships/ILLUSTRIOUS.html

ForkTailedDevil
03-25-2007, 06:45 AM
Just use an air start.

VW-IceFire
03-25-2007, 07:38 AM
Setup the carriers and then use the TestRunway4 to create airstarts further back. This will force the players to recover on the carrier deck but have the option of starting in the air.

Only the Seafire L.III has any reliable chance of getting off the deck of the Illustrious in a dogfight server.

mandrill7
03-25-2007, 08:43 AM
You can't really take off in a corsair from the Illustrious, unless the ship is moving at a fair rate. Static is a total no go.

You need to have the ship moving and to ginger up the speed manually by going into the properties file, to give yourself a reasonable chance to take off.

And I don't think you could take off 3 squadrons from that deck either. I'm not sure the game would allow it and if so, whether it would allow anywhere close to enough room for you to build up speed.

I've written something like the same mission. (It's an occupational hazard of mission writing. There are only so many great ideas to go around.) I had no difficulty with a Corsair with 100% fuel and no bomb load taking off with a two flight force on deck. But the carrier was certainly not static and I suspect I tweaked the speed up as set out above.

Good luck.

VW-IceFire
03-25-2007, 09:00 AM
You shouldn't need to tweak up the speed for a nominal bomb and fuel load. I've been flying some DGEN campaigns without trouble.

ElAurens
03-25-2007, 09:16 AM
I have run into the same problem making a DF version of "Operation Leader", the Oct., 1943 sortie of USS Ranger from Scapa Flow to attack German shipping on the coast of Norway. A truely "Forgotten Battle".

Even though the Ranger's aircraft (F4F-4s and SBD-3s) were the only aircraft to see action, and they met no Luftwaffe resistance, I wanted to make it fun for a DF server, so added the Illustrious and LW opposition. I initially wanted to use Corsairs off of Illustrious, but found out that they are not possible to use off of a static RN carrier, so sadly switched to Seafires.

Icefire, we are talking about static carriers in DF mode.

VW-IceFire
03-25-2007, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
I have run into the same problem making a DF version of "Operation Leader", the Oct., 1943 sortie of USS Ranger from Scapa Flow to attack German shipping on the coast of Norway. A truely "Forgotten Battle".

Even though the Ranger's aircraft (F4F-4s and SBD-3s) were the only aircraft to see action, and they met no Luftwaffe resistance, I wanted to make it fun for a DF server, so added the Illustrious and LW opposition. I initially wanted to use Corsairs off of Illustrious, but found out that they are not possible to use off of a static RN carrier, so sadly switched to Seafires.

Icefire, we are talking about static carriers in DF mode.
I know...but Mandrill wasn't and he was saying something about tweaking the speed higher which is not necessary in my experience.

Maj.Kaos
03-25-2007, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
"I have run into the same problem making a DF version of "Operation Leader", the Oct., 1943 sortie of USS Ranger from Scapa Flow to attack German shipping on the coast of Norway. A truely "Forgotten Battle".

Even though the Ranger's aircraft (F4F-4s and SBD-3s) were the only aircraft to see action, and they met no Luftwaffe resistance..."



TBF Avengers from Ranger also were involved in Operation Leader. Check out this site...

http://www.airgroup4.com/book/index.htm Table of Contents, Chapter One.

If you finish the project, make a single player mission and upload for my enjoyment!!!

MAILMAN------
03-25-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by stansdds:
Static carrier takeoff? No thanks.

This is straight from the F4U-1/-1A/early -1D flight manual.

Takeoff runs at sea level:
0 knots head wind = 680 feet @ 11,700 pounds gross weight. That's about 190 gallons of internal fuel and no external ordnance.

15 knots head wind = 450 feet @ 11,700 pounds gross weight.

I'm thinking that your carrier needs to be moving in order to launch Corsairs.

This thread is about creating a map for a DOGFIGHT server and is mentioned right in the very first sentence. I have seen all of the documents that you mentioned. In a nutshell I was hoping that someone had a work around for this problem. Frankyboy seems to have provided one. I really would like to use the HMS Illustrious as it was actually a participant in the real "Operation Cockpit" rather than a US Carrier.

Dogfight Servers / Missions are coded so the ships do not move (you can't input waypoints), therefore static carriers are the only choice. Blame the developer for this. So telling me about moving carriers for this topic is a moot point.

I did not bring up Coop Server / Missions or Single Player Missions where you can actually input way points and have the ships moving at 30 Knots for a CV and 19 Knots for a CVE.

MAILMAN------
03-25-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
You can't really take off in a corsair from the Illustrious, unless the ship is moving at a fair rate. Static is a total no go.

You need to have the ship moving and to ginger up the speed manually by going into the properties file, to give yourself a reasonable chance to take off.

And I don't think you could take off 3 squadrons from that deck either. I'm not sure the game would allow it and if so, whether it would allow anywhere close to enough room for you to build up speed.

I've written something like the same mission. (It's an occupational hazard of mission writing. There are only so many great ideas to go around.) I had no difficulty with a Corsair with 100% fuel and no bomb load taking off with a two flight force on deck. But the carrier was certainly not static and I suspect I tweaked the speed up as set out above.

Good luck.
As I said to Stansdds, I created this for a DOGFIGHT SERVER. I have missions created for both single player and cooperative missions where the ships move for "Operation Cockpit" as well as the Palembang raid. I have played on dogfight servers that had the carrier spawn points moved back, but the creator was not around for me to ask how to do it. I will try Frankyboy's work around. I mentioned the three squadrons as a historical reference. I did not infer that I wanted three squadrons to take off from the HMS Illustrious.

MAILMAN------
03-25-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Maj.Kaos:
Originally posted by ElAurens:
"I have run into the same problem making a DF version of "Operation Leader", the Oct., 1943 sortie of USS Ranger from Scapa Flow to attack German shipping on the coast of Norway. A truely "Forgotten Battle".

Even though the Ranger's aircraft (F4F-4s and SBD-3s) were the only aircraft to see action, and they met no Luftwaffe resistance..."



TBF Avengers from Ranger also were involved in Operation Leader. Check out this site...

http://www.airgroup4.com/book/index.htm Table of Contents, Chapter One.

If you finish the project, make a single player mission and upload for my enjoyment!!!

Avengers are not available as player flyable aircraft therefore cannot be selected for use by a player online. AI planes are not available in DOGFIGHT SERVERS because you can't input waypoints for them just like the ships. So the only Avengers you will see in a Dogfight Server would be static Avengers to be used as Eye Candy or targets. Imagine that Not a single player flyable USN Torpedo Plane, Avenger or Devastator not included in the game nor a Japanes Nakajima B5N "Kate" torpedo plane.

FritzGryphon
03-25-2007, 06:36 PM
I tried this with 50% fuel, leading a 4 plane flight from the Illustrious, taking off from the 500 mark.

I managed to take off with full flaps. Very close, but it is possible. Rather than trust myself with the elevator, I used almost full nose-up trim.

Also consider setting poor weather, and making the carrier face north. The little bit of wind would help.

CadMan_99
03-25-2007, 06:57 PM
The trick answer is "cheat" for the carrier being used as a home base takeoff point

Add another carrier nose to tail to the first !!

From my DF server mission with B-25's
With the two [or more] carriers I can make a 100% fuel max bomb load take off after a bit of practice.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/InSPire%20Doolittle/Launch.jpg

When you mange to sink a joined carrier you can get some nice effects.
From the Midway DF map.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/CadMan_99/v4%20Patch/il2fb2005-11-1522-30-24-68.jpg

MAILMAN------
03-25-2007, 08:10 PM
I put Test Runway 4 down and made it the home base. I put HMS Illustrious (entire ship) forward (about halfway between the icon and the two white corner icons) of the Home Base & Test Runway 4 icon in the FMB. The spawn point becomes 670 Ft. mark on flight deck. I can get airborne with a Corsair II with 50% Fuel quite easily. I tried unsuccessfully with 100% fuel a few times. It may be possible to get in the air with this fuel load, but may take a ton of practice, but 50% fuel should be sufficient for the setup I have in mind. I didn't try any ordinance, but my plan is for players to have Corsair II's from HMS Victorious escort the Hellcats and SBD's from USS Saratoga to the target and then C.A.P. Sabang.
I flew a DF Server once that had two Lexington Class Carriers end to end as shown above and thought it a bit absurd ascetically so although it may work it is completely out of the question for my purposes. Test Runway 4 accomplished what I wanted. Thanks Frankyboy.