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FearlessSpeach
01-03-2011, 03:53 AM
A topic of much discussion, which from the old threads I've read often turns to flames. In general the arguments boil down to : don't fix what ain't broke, L2P, I can run if I wanna cus I bought the game, carry a gun, and the ever present "the game already punishes runners."

A simply solution which, for those of us who fully believe runners ruin every session they enter allows a reprieve, and which has absolutely no impact on those who like things the way they are.

A game mode, exactly the same as advanced wanted. Only difference: If a kill is not preformed in incognito, it scores 0 points. If you believe you can run and still get incog kills and be super awesome, go for it. Silent kills score 0, discrete kills score 0, and obviously chase kills score 0. Most likely, a chase trigger should just auto end as an escape to save everyone time.
I chose wanted because, well, it probably would result in offensive scores of very little in manhunt since people are getting so good at creating no-kill stun zones. Alliance should probably work as well, but it really seems that wanted would be where this would shine the most.

From a coding stand point, this is probably the simplest of the solutions, "fixes," what ever that's been offered. The only real concern is if the player base is large enough to support a new mode at all. Best part is, people who don't want anything to change: don't play this mode! Yay, flowers, sunshine, happiness.

Thoughts? Would you play it? Should we just skip the formalities and flame each other over runner opinions?

Oh, and the name should obviously be "Advanceder Wanted"

SimDuff
01-03-2011, 04:28 AM
I agree on a mode that only uses stealth; maybe it could have more NPCs and use the smaller maps more often?

tallinn1960
01-03-2011, 05:39 AM
Funny, just yesterday night I had almost the same idea: to create game modes where running is discouraged more then it is in the existing modes today by any means. The game has been really nasty to me yesterday evening: Sessions did not start with being in 6/6, 7/7 or 8/8 on a´regular basis, and those sessions, that did start, were runner parties in San Donato or Florence. It is such a sad picture to see all other players up there running around. I still cannot understand how one would even get killed up there for more then 100 points, but I see this happen. To add to the annoying experience poison did not like to connect to players at all, even those that were bumping into me while running. Just imagine anything that could not work as expected in ACB MP and I assure you, it happened to me last night. Me and the game, we both failed in every possible way you can think of.

In that mood, while being offered yet another session on San Donato (that map was haunting me tonight), I thought about a game mode where runners have a harder life. Suggestions have been made here how to obtain this:

1. Make discreet lock like silent. I.e. if you lose silent status you won't gain it back. Like the permanent loss of incognito.

2. Make a stamina function that limits the time a player may run or fast run without having to recover.

3. Put guards on the roofs that impose a danger to people being there.

4. Alter the speed in which the incognito meter decreases and recovers.

...

These additional game modes would satisfy the need of anyone: runners and roof campers may have their life as they wish, people who tend to be annoyed by having to hunt down runners or being air assassinated by them may have their life as they wish.

Demotros3
01-03-2011, 07:51 AM
What if instead of straight 0 points, you get a streak of of multiple 100 point kills and "style"(pick your own word for that, I'm just waking up) points are lost, so if you make 2 100 point kills in a row, the 3rd won't score you any points?

Then those... people... can do their running, and the rest of us don't miss out on discrete kills when we go up against someone who is just good at being defensive.

I don't run, but from time to time I go up against someone who spots me right as I get up on top of them, if they rabbit I'd still like a couple points for a good effort.

obliviondoll
01-03-2011, 08:26 AM
I suggested (rather a long time ago now, but in several of these threads) something similar.

Worth bring back here.

Stealth hardcore mode:

Kill = 0 points

Aerial Kill = 0 points

Incognito = 400 points

Silent = 250 points

Acrobatic = 0 points.

No other changes to current bonus structure.

Incognito kills would earn the same amount of points they normally do. Silent would earn 50 points less, discrete would earn 100 points less.

Acrobatic, aerial, and chase kills would all be worthless.

I don't think it's necessary to do this, but I know a lot of players would appreciate it.

Some would think it unfair that stealth players are being given their own mode, but the game's free-running elements (a major part of the single player game as well) are being neglected.

I came up with a simple fix - a new mode for runners.

Kill = 300 points

No other bonuses. ONLY score for killing your target - meaning the highest kill count will ALWAYS win. I say 300 so that the scores are relatively in line with what a runner would get in a regular match.

Demotros3
01-03-2011, 08:31 AM
What I'd really like to see is guards patrolling the rooftops. Given a countdown warning before they start shooting at you. Very few things would make me happier than seeing a roofrunner fall to the ground with an arrow sticking out of his butt. (Though I imagine a bullet would probably be more effective...)

Rainie
01-03-2011, 08:51 AM
@OP If the only way to score points in a match was to get incog kills, what's to stop the target from running once they see you? Also, if you have 3 pursuers coming at you at the same time wouldn't you just run if you knew they'd lose their chance to score if they ran just a little?

@stamina meter idea: though this would work for dealing with people that run everywhere, it would negjtively impact escapes as well. If you have 2-3 people you're running from and have nothing to stop them you're pretty much going to die once that meter runs out

FearlessSpeach
01-03-2011, 01:25 PM
@ Oblivion
A) thanks for helping me with my connection in the sticky thread
B) Sorry I missed your suggestion, I've been trying to read as much as the old posts as I can to "catch up" but 31 pages is a lot.
C) Why should Aerial and Acro be worthless? I have at least once gotten an Incog, focus, arial acro on Siena by dropping from a tent. Not sure it was supposed to give me both, but still it was incog. Also, the existence of the death from above focused ledge drop challenge seems to suggest that UBI thought it would be possible to get sneaky kills this way. Its wroth noting that of all the kill bonuses, arial is probably the one I have the least of. Approximately 25-30, so I'm not exactly a huge paragon of the value of it, just saying. (My inexperience shows, only level 46 still).
D) Your death match idea is fun sounding, though I am sure many anti runners would argue that runners already have their own game modes: i.e. all the current ones. There has also been support for death match in other posts, though the "Converge on the middle and kill chain" concern does come up.

@ Rainie: Your videos and extensive time played are enough to convince me that you know much more than I do, but, I have encountered many times with three pursuers, and I've found that running often gives a way a great kill to one of them. Seems without fail, run long enough from two and you'll pick the wrong corner and the third will close line you from a hiding spot. Not to mention, leader running means no more points for leader. As to the pursuers, just kill a npc. Often, especially on the DLC map due to it being 60% roofs, if I see my target has three I'll just pick off a npc and hope for a better target.
Or, L2P and don't get seen, duh. I mean gosh, what kinda nubby cake can't go completely undetected 130% of the time. (/sarcasm)

@Demotros
Perhaps I didn't stress the "er" in Advanceder enough. If they spot ya, last minute or a hundred steps out, in this mode you are probably boned. Though I have seen players bait their targets by making it obvious they are the pursuer, and then cutting them off around a corner or at a choke point as the target tries to flee. Personally, I'm not yet that talented though.
I'm very reluctant to the idea of hostile guards. A) It punishes players that do manage to get into a good arial position without being spotted. B) Practicality; the MP Coding just currently isn't set up for aggressive NPCs, and the current AI in SP seems to have issues (as can be seen if chasing the bourgia carrier or ally thieves) with more than one target. The easiest way to get what you want is to ask for very little, and at least to me, it seems less work for UBI to disable point allotment than introduce entirely new elements. This also applies to the stamina meeter suggestion. Though perhaps disabling it during chase (as has been suggested in posts dedicated to it) would answer Rainie's concern.

Rainie
01-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Yes, disabling the stamina meter once a chase triggered would make it fine for me. If my three pursuers are coming for me and I can see them and one of them uses TV then I know at least 1 of them knows where I am. I'm not gonna stand there like a sitting duck, I'll probably try to stun 2 of them but I want to be able to run and not get killed because of a stamina meter when I know I can outrun a pursuer

Quitetingly
01-03-2011, 01:49 PM
runners are easy to spot. will usually come to you eventually to kill your persuer (which you can't tell me you haven't said at least once "thank god that crazy clown rushed to kill the guy 4 feet away from me" ) and how often has anyone playing for high points ever been beat out by a runner? I for one don't recall ever losing to a runner. I love them, get in front of them and watch them fall off a roof when the poison kicks in, its just a matter of tailoring your style to neutralise them. Runners are no different then FPS bunny hoppers, sure they are annoying, but it only helps you play better. And of everything Ubi has to work on right now I somehow doubt they will be catoring to those of you that don't like how someone else plays. Take the runners right to run away from them and they stop playing. Thats not good for buisness.

FearlessSpeach
01-03-2011, 01:57 PM
Quiet:

I'm still new, so not a god, but have seen a few "talented" runners. On the smaller maps have seen some get 18-20 kills, which even at 150-400 each add up, especially since they often get streak bonuses. Though it is great to see the end score with second place having 3 times the kills of first - even if I'm not that first place.
As to business, I had that in mind with this idea. It is simple to implement, and due to the fact that the rounds probably won't have very high scores it won't be played by many people trying to level, or new players (most runners). Its a niche mode, play it if you want with 0 impact on any other mode.

Like it or not, some runners are good. They can clear 6k every time, which is a solid score, and with that many kills, the odds of the patient players finding several solid kills go down - simply fewer bodies to hit.

stitchlessdeath
01-03-2011, 01:57 PM
Getting no points for discreet or silent would result in runners being everywhere, hell I know when a persuer is on me, and I think I can't stop them I try to get them to chase me, so I might be able to pull off the chase escape... with these new rules, there'd be no reason not to run from your persuer, cause as long as I keep moving you won't get points cause you have to chase me...

So, someone could get a few great kills in, and then run for the rest of the match, because anyone who catches up to the runner gets nothing, unless of course the runner isn't smart...

Maybe, just maybe the stamina idea will work, but I'm sure people would get frustrated with that too, getting away from one persuer only to be chased by another and not have enough stamina to survive, or enough to chase down your target...

Leave runners alone, let them play that style if they want, use it to your advantage... heck some challenges (I point this out yet again, its like people don't read) require you to run, or for your target to run, even both... so just play the game and deal with the minor issues all of us do... its not changing anytime soon, so get used to it...

Really runners aren't half as annoying as the people that complain about the game, and you guys highly out number the runners... you just can't be happy with what you have, can you? Either play the game as it is, or go make a better one... can't make a better one? My point exactly... if you can, then why are you here, go make us that perfect game that has no flaws, see you in a few 100 years...

Everything has its flaws, be happy with what you have as is, it could be worse...

FearlessSpeach
01-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Leave runners alone, let them play that style if they want, use it to your advantage... heck some challenges (I point this out yet again, its like people don't read) require you to run, or for your target to run, even both... so just play the game and deal with the minor issues all of us do... its not changing anytime soon, so get used to it...

Really runners aren't half as annoying as the people that complain about the game, and you guys highly out number the runners... you just can't be happy with what you have, can you? Either play the game as it is, or go make a better one... can't make a better one? My point exactly... if you can, then why are you here, go make us that perfect game that has no flaws, see you in a few 100 years...

Everything has its flaws, be happy with what you have as is, it could be worse...

That's just it, this mode *IS* leaving them alone. From the get go, I stressed two points: ease of implementation, and *no changes to other modes what so ever.* - in other words, I like things exactly the way they are, just think this could offer variety which would extend the life of the game. Once too many people lose interest, none of us will get to play.

Also, to pointing out about challenges... there is another discussion going on right now about this, which I have posted in, supporting and agreeing with you 100%. My idea is simply to help remove this issue which keeps coming up. And this is for game design. There probably isn't a way to make a change to every mode to keep this from coming up ever again, so instead, as a gesture to the vocal (perhaps minority) members of the community, provide a simple mode change. I love the game, never said I didn't. I honestly don't think UBI did anything wrong with the way MP is balanced and think they did a great job. The game is young, it only has 3 modes, we all know as it matures more will be added. I just saw a simple solution for an often discussed concern. I also support oblivion's idea to cater to runners - more happy for everyone gets rid of the over all complaint value.