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Graf1119
01-08-2007, 07:05 AM
Needing mucho advice on the historic paint of the first Ki-27s encountered by the Russians.

"All Ki-27s in the discussed period were entirely finished in a pale light gray color with a faint greenish tint (to our pilots, at a distance it was sometimes taken for white)."

Here are my early efforts. The first two pics of the light tan variety.

http://www.box.net/public/static/7itraqile6.jpg

http://www.box.net/public/static/392eokncci.jpg

And the next two of the pale grey/green look.

http://www.box.net/public/static/uuscdusxej.jpg

http://www.box.net/public/static/0i781p57ex.jpg

Which do you believe to be the historic look?

Also...anyone have a shot of all IJAAF unit insignias or symbols? Looking for a good representation of the 64th Sentai's stylized eagle they wore on their Ki-27s.

Thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4094/grafssasig4pc.jpg
"Against twenty Russians trying to shoot you down or even twenty Spitfires,
it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards forty Fortresses and all
your past sins flash before your eyes."
-"Fips" Phillips, 200+ Experten

LEBillfish
01-08-2007, 08:14 AM
Graf, I'll see what I can find but if you ask here http://www.j-aircraft.com/ I would bet they would know right off to such exactness it will scare you.....

As a "guess" till I look into it. I would guess what the color actually was is nothing more then bare metal with a clear varnish/lacquer over the upper surfaces. If control surfaces were cloth over ribbing which even later planes were, then their again guessing as I have heard various answers, yet either a grey-green or a silver "dope".

The supposed "tan" or goldish color this again might fall under the classic "Golden A5M" debate wherein no expert on finishes, I would guess it simply another form of clear lacquer.

In any case, if the aluminum was not "prepped" and simply painted over or lacquerd, those finishes would come off rather quickly once in the field or shift their colors due to UV light affecting them. Paints were nothing compared to todays standards, and short exposure in sun or the elements would take their toll quickly.

As to the "white", a bare metal (even with clear coat) aluminum plane will look that way at a distance. Once oxidizing, actually turning white though would be doubtful.

What I would suggest off the cuff would actually be a combination of the two...The golden color on top for a darkening lacquer, yet the other underneeth for bare metal....But that's guessing without checking as I quite simply "DON'T KNOW" yet....

Ask on J aircraft, i'll look into it over the next couple days.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

LEBillfish
01-08-2007, 01:19 PM
Photo's of actual 64th Ki-27, pictures found at Rods Warbirds http://www.warbirdpix.com/

Getting you better versions of these pics and more if you can give me a bit...

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/ArmyB&W/Ki27nate.jpg

(actually 84th Dokuritsu Chutai attached to 64th hence the red eagle)
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/ArmyJB&W/Ki-27-2s.jpg

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/ArmyJB&W2/Ki-27-23.jpg

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/ArmyJB&W3/Ki-27-33.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

Graf1119
01-08-2007, 01:36 PM
Thanks Kelly. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So tough to know for sure. In this images here the Ki-27 looks white as snow.

I'm gonna toy abit more and see if I can come up with a good solution.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4094/grafssasig4pc.jpg
"Against twenty Russians trying to shoot you down or even twenty Spitfires,
it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards forty Fortresses and all
your past sins flash before your eyes."
-"Fips" Phillips, 200+ Experten

LEBillfish
01-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Getting you better pictures, hang on..<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

LEBillfish
01-08-2007, 03:25 PM
BEWARE...SOme are 84th Dokuritsu Chutai attached to the 64th....Kato's personal emblem was the one used for all in the unit whaen used.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64nate.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/64-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/61-1.jpg

Graf1119
01-08-2007, 04:00 PM
WOW. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks a million! Seriously. This will definitely help a ton.

You're THE source for JAAF info. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4094/grafssasig4pc.jpg
"Against twenty Russians trying to shoot you down or even twenty Spitfires,
it can be exciting, even fun. But curve in towards forty Fortresses and all
your past sins flash before your eyes."
-"Fips" Phillips, 200+ Experten

Waldo.Pepper
01-08-2007, 10:37 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/nate/59th.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/nate/10th.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

LEBillfish
01-08-2007, 10:38 PM
The expert on the subject Jim Lansdale has chimed in, here would be your best answer IMLTHO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=2635.0


then check here to find the FS color......

http://www.colorserver.net/<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>

VF51_Flatspin
01-08-2007, 11:04 PM
Check this and/or other scale modeller sites. Many of these modellers are detail nuts and will often cite their sources if asked.

http://hsfeatures.com/features04/ki27rs_1.htm<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.carolina.rr.com/squad/AG-51/Flatspin.gif
=Flatspin= VT-51 CO (http://www.airgroup51.com)
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F.I.S.C. (http://www.gofisc.com)

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Feathered_IV
01-09-2007, 12:21 AM
As I understand it, the white fuselage stripe is a theatre mark for China (got this from kagero's book on the KI-27). The thing is, when did they start using it?

I'm also wondering what colour primer was used. If it was anything like the tenacious red stuf used on A6M's and other IJN aircraft. Might come in handy to know when weathering skins.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

***********************************************

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/Feathered-sigpic.jpg

"Intelligent, normally observant and answered all questions freely. He was arrogant and proud to be a pilot. Fellow prisoners in hospital consider him mentally unstable."

KIMURA
01-09-2007, 04:32 AM
http://www.kitlink.com/Products/images/Hasegawa/ha09433.JPG

http://www.kitlink.com/Products/images/Hasegawa/ha09568.JPG

http://www.kitlink.com/Products/images/Hasegawa/HSG09724.JPG

http://www.kitlink.com/Products/images/Hasegawa/ha00684.JPG

http://www.kitlink.com/Products/images/Icm/ICM72201.JPG <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/Ki1.jpg

KIMURA
01-09-2007, 04:36 AM
Ki-27 model gallery (http://images.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=http://www.j-aircraft.com/gallery/army/ki-27_gallery/ki-27-caz_dalton_01l.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.j-aircraft.com/gallery/army/ki-27_gallery.htm&h=210&w=400&sz=10&hl=de&start=4&tbnid=Ye99oLzylzY0qM:&tbnh=65&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhasegawa%2BKi-27%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/Ki1.jpg

Feathered_IV
01-09-2007, 06:25 AM
One really interesting thing about the Ki-27, notice how the oleo leg pushes up through the uppersurface of the wing when its on the ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/ArmyJB&W2/Ki-27-22.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

***********************************************

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/Feathered-sigpic.jpg

"Intelligent, normally observant and answered all questions freely. He was arrogant and proud to be a pilot. Fellow prisoners in hospital consider him mentally unstable."

XyZspineZyX
01-09-2007, 11:37 AM
Visual indication of "weight on wheels" perhaps?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f239/Skunk24/sig2.jpg
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LEBillfish
01-11-2007, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
As I understand it, the white fuselage stripe is a theatre mark for China (got this from kagero's book on the KI-27). The thing is, when did they start using it?......

Have posted bits of this before, yet here will in it's entirety a quote from "Emblems of the Rising Sun, Imperial Japanese Army Air Force Unit Markings, by Peter Scott, ISBN# 1-902109-55-4":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Kaytoo/IL2/striping1.jpg <div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK">"Does this make my Hien look big?"
"I love my Ha-40's"
"She loves teh Swallow"
"Don't call me cho-cho san"
</span>