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View Full Version : Even more Invisible planes ! Completely disappear at 500 meters !



Tipo_Man
09-26-2005, 04:57 AM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/inv21.gif
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/inv11.gif

And 4.02 visibility...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/inv3.gif

Oleg, do you plan to start selling spare eyes?
Because with this sim I will soon need them...

Well,
I'm completely reluctant to play online anymore, since I'm simply unable to see/follow other planes. The problem is I really like real servers, with mature players, well defined planesets, and real setting of course, but they seem to have no or very limited icons.
Sometimes I find myself following a plane at 500-1000m range, then it simply disappears for several seconds and that's it. I think most of you know how annoying it is to fly 30min to to place yourself behind a buddy and have him disappear.
Are you experiencing the same?
Can you give me some glues how to remedy this. I've tweaked a lot my graphics settings but nothing has changed.I hear some guys tune their driver settings, some play at very low resolution just in order to be able to see these d.a.m.n invisible dots. I even have a cloth besides my monitor to clean it each 5 minutes but this still does not help....
Generaly I think dots/planes (IN)visibilty is the biggest issue that has to be addressed in the game.
I spent all my day infront of a computer. I usually play after work for an hour and instead of relief the game bring only pain to my eyes.

here are the full pics:
http://tipoman.maddsites.com/pic/inv1.gif
http://tipoman.maddsites.com/pic/inv2.gif

At least can someone pompt me a full real server only with icons at 5km for example..
Thanks.

Kuna15
09-26-2005, 05:27 AM
You are correct.

However, if winter maps are in question, I have no major problems in spotting enemies; for example if they are on deck and I 3k above them.

Situation changes with summer map dramatically http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I'm on tail of enemy aircraft at ~700m and he sees me; we are on about 1500m alt; he performs split-S and when he position himself below me he immediatelly 'blend' with forrest landscape and I can not see him anymore.
That however, doesn't always work out that way, but certainly there are difficulties at spotting planes on summer maps.

There were some tips like 800Ӕ600 resolution, and setting object lightning etc. on low values, but that really isn't so enjoyable anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

About 'tweaks' there was one which allows user to see only planes iirc, without ground scenery, and that was big cheat. The only problem was to not run into ground. Also there is some 'tweak' that allows user to see only wireframe of the cockpit and thus be able to see like in wonderwoman view.

However, I have never tried out any of these simply - I didn't know how and I never really bothered with it. That kind of stuff are for kids - I don't have a problem with being killed online. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kocur_
09-26-2005, 07:34 AM
I hate that too. Seems it happenes when enemy plane changes from form of dot into form of an object with texture. If its generally green painted, then being very few pixels yet, disappears among green pixels of forest/grass background. VERY bad if you are one with alt advantage, which is supposed to a very good thing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
Another thing, yet directly connected with above, is lack of modelling glares.

Jaws2002
09-26-2005, 08:26 AM
Try to play a little bit with the object detail in your graphic settings. If detail is set to low the planes disappear at close range.I noticed that with full detail I can spot planes from 3-4000m and I don't loose sight of them.
There are some servers that set the "dot range" some way that makes the planes disappear at really close range too.

WWMaxGunz
09-26-2005, 09:22 AM
I will see them fine until that certain range where they go invisible against ground
while I watch. Same plane, same ground, already LOD more than dot. Presto-change-o!
The view limits have been the first big pain for me since day one and this is part.
Very good if combat is all about riding behind another in endless flat circles... so
many of us have asked for some fix for years and then a few people say no, that is
how it is. Sorry but the hard part is FINDING the other plane, not it dissapears
while you are watching in clear sky.
It really screws BnZ even with icons, you can't see if the wings tilt, if the target
is beginning to jink. And that is just perfect if you don't fly BnZ. Perhaps it is
a Leet Skillz to know when your plane will blink out so you can exploit?

JG5_UnKle
09-27-2005, 05:34 AM
MaxGunz has a good point, as any long term BnZ'er knows - this is the duality of Energy Fighting.

The 4.01 patch favours the BnZ a/c a little more (in my experience) and a careful pilot can be very happy but the visibility issues have plagued lots of vpilots. One of our pilots even played at 800x600 until a few months ago just so the pixel dot would be easier to resolve against the background.

I find perfect mode is actually better for me to spot the dots but not so good for framerates.

Sadly I have found that I can best identify and track aircraft by following the tracer fire from their attacks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

F19_Ob
09-27-2005, 05:45 AM
Some planes dissappear sooner than others.
Seafire, ki61 and some others are gone at 400m
( the wings vanish so they get hard to see)
one can ofcourse zoom in maximum but it's a bad way too fly.
I often lose planes while chasing them in dogfights online.
Sometimes I look behind me to see tracers come from thin air. (often hurricanes)
I fly on full distance settings.
its the same in perfect mode although I dont use yhat online.

This is an old issue though. but as always post your findings in e-mail to oleg.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

GK-66SS
09-27-2005, 11:12 AM
I have always hated the tiny planes in this game. Maybe they are scaled correctly, but it is VERY irritating to fly and fly and fly trying to find a fight. It bugs me so badly that I wont even play on large maps any more. I have always thought that the planes needed to be bigger and easier to spot. When the dots were changed a couple of patches ago, it made it a little better. Then a few of the die hards cried about it and it was changed back to make them almost impossible to see. I can honestly say that this one issue has caused me to almost stop playing the game completely. While I'm complaining, I would also like to see a second damage option that is halfway between realistic gunnery and the very easy mode when it is turned off. Maybe a 50% setting of some sort.

F19_Ob
09-27-2005, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by GK-66SS:
I have always hated the tiny planes in this game. Maybe they are scaled correctly, but it is VERY irritating............

The best solution for timebeeing would be to set the visibility on all planes atleast to 1000m. Usually one can see beyond that.

To have correct scaling is a good thing despite the tinyness. It may become wierd if the oyside world is scaled differently.
What we really need is cockpit-sized monitors but then most wouldn't be able to afford it.
The above suggestion is a good way to get around this problem (IMO).

albundy777
09-27-2005, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
I hate that too. Seems it happenes when enemy plane changes from form of dot into form of an object with texture. If its generally green painted, then being very few pixels yet, disappears among green pixels of forest/grass background.
No. The issue is that some planes have bad low LOD models, where they have been reduced to 0 polygons.

They ARE invisible.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5581020063

LEXX_Luthor
09-27-2005, 04:52 PM
My solution to the blending of skin/terrain, for Offline play, is to vastly brighten the skins in a PhotoPaint program. Works very well. Vanishing LODs only Oleg can fix.

Kocur_
09-27-2005, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by albundy777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
I hate that too. Seems it happenes when enemy plane changes from form of dot into form of an object with texture. If its generally green painted, then being very few pixels yet, disappears among green pixels of forest/grass background.
No. The issue is that some planes have bad low LOD models, where they have been reduced to 0 polygons.

They ARE invisible.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5581020063 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rgrt! Even better... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

TX-Gunslinger
09-27-2005, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by GK-66SS:
I have always hated the tiny planes in this game. Maybe they are scaled correctly, but it is VERY irritating to fly and fly and fly trying to find a fight. It bugs me so badly that I wont even play on large maps any more. I have always thought that the planes needed to be bigger and easier to spot. When the dots were changed a couple of patches ago, it made it a little better. Then a few of the die hards cried about it and it was changed back to make them almost impossible to see. I can honestly say that this one issue has caused me to almost stop playing the game completely. While I'm complaining, I would also like to see a second damage option that is halfway between realistic gunnery and the very easy mode when it is turned off. Maybe a 50% setting of some sort.

For all the gnashing of teeth over FM's, weapons effects, fuel, diving, blah-blah-blah-blah, the number #1 limitation in this sim is visibility differential between differing:

1) user graphics settings
2) user hardware capabilities
3) server settings
4) graphic model LOD's

Why? Because to see aircraft at maximimum range and over some terrain types, many users end up with less than ideal graphics output in order to be competitive. How many folks are using lower resolutions, reduced lighting, detail and other settings in order to spot friendly and enemy aircraft? I'd venture to guess quite a bit.

The combinations of different monitors (lcd/crt/size) and graphics cards, coupled with AA/AF settings create an global incontinuity in this sim that is difficult to overcome.

The 3.02 big dots leveled this playing field in a simple manner, without folks having to sacrifice quality over performance. The big dots were an elegant solution to a difficult and complex problem. So very very sad that individual pilots could not see the larger effect, past their own myopic needs. Because specular effects like "glint" and "glare" can't be represented in this engine (or any current engine) with current hardware, some workaround is needed.

The truth is, you can buy yourself a dual-SLI system (I would'nt recommend it for this software) with an outrageously expensive monitor and still someone with a minimum spec system, will see aircraft at significantly longer ranges than you will.

Simple fact is, the more detail you render the more objects other than planes and ground targets you'll see. Only so many pixels can occupy a space at one time.

Great post GK-66SS. I totally agree. Bottom line for any fair-minded person should be similar visibility for all players, controlled by the server, NOT by individual graphics settings which are NON-INSPECTABLE.

We all need a global, inspectable and common visual base which allows everyone to see contacts at the same range while maximimizing the rendering capability of their hardware. The first person shooters are way ahead in this area, I think.

P.S. - I don't believe that there was ever a wire-frame cheat. I believe that folks came up with this due to the graphics differential between different settings and hardware capabilities. That differential has almost the same effect.

S~

Gun

Tipo_Man
09-28-2005, 04:15 AM
Sorry guys, but I think this has nothing to do with dot range or skins or texture quality.. this is a pure bug.
Notice the range at which the plane is invisible at the first pic. It's 480meters !!! at that range the plane should have the size of the radius of the reticle! We talking about 100-200 invisible dots here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I think this is much more important to fix than adding some uber-late-war-kiddy-planes

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2005, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

P.S. - I don't believe that there was ever a wire-frame cheat. I believe that folks came up with this due to the graphics differential between different settings and hardware capabilities. That differential has almost the same effect.

S~

Gun

If I hadn't seen screenshots showing wireframe mode, I wouldn't know what to believe.

Badsight.
09-28-2005, 05:28 AM
Neal , did you ever save those screenshots ?

i got a couple of skins here , combined with the LOD dissapearing trick i dont see how you could ever get shot at http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://xs48.xs.to/pics/05393/tree_camo_LA1.JPG

http://xs48.xs.to/pics/05393/tree_camo_LA2.JPG

TX-Gunslinger
09-28-2005, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
Sorry guys, but I think this has nothing to do with dot range or skins or texture quality.. this is a pure bug.
Notice the range at which the plane is invisible at the first pic. It's 480meters !!! at that range the plane should have the size of the radius of the reticle! We talking about 100-200 invisible dots here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I think this is much more important to fix than adding some uber-late-war-kiddy-planes


I have to respectfully disagree, although I understand your point.

I would submit that the problem you describe is a bug in the context of your post. On the other hand, it is also a subset of a larger issue, which has plauged us since AEP at least.

I don't have your problem. I can't replicate it with my graphics settings. I believe that you have the problem, certainly. Why then do you have this issue and not I? Graphics setting differentials.

What video card do you use? Nvidea?

S~

SlickStick
09-28-2005, 09:03 AM
Wire frame cheat is most definitely a reality and still in practice today. Be sure.

V4.01m brought about some new graphical situations that weren't in the game before. Most dealing with LOD and distance from immediate proximity with certain planes.

One glitch that has been there prior to V4.01m is that one wing of a Mk VIII disappears at certain distances. Hundreds have seen it and it is how you can pick out a Mk VIII in a furball. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Obviously, with only one wing disappearing/re-appearing over a very small distance and no other parts of the plane, indicates this to be a graphical bug. So is the missing propellor in a Spitfire Vc from any behind view, to cite another example. All types of video card owners have reported these two issues consistently.

I'm using the same drivers as I have been pre-V4.01m, Det 66.93s with a Ti 4200 128MB.

TX-Gunslinger
09-28-2005, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:

P.S. - I don't believe that there was ever a wire-frame cheat. I believe that folks came up with this due to the graphics differential between different settings and hardware capabilities. That differential has almost the same effect.

S~

Gun

If I hadn't seen screenshots showing wireframe mode, I wouldn't know what to believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well Max, if you and Badsight say it's so, then I'll take your word. I do remember seeing a wireframe image, but it was'nt from Il2.

Thanks

S~

WWMaxGunz
09-28-2005, 10:57 AM
When I saw them years ago it was about the posts in the cockpit, the FW 190 gunsight
view and other out through the cockpit "proofs". Not about other planes at distance
though there were other planes.

I don't know about LOD's and that kind of thing. I didn't save any of that because I
didn't have any use for it. It looked confusing to some extent, like you'd be flying
one of those optical illusions where one moment it's coming and the next it's going.
What that one member said, the big problem is not running into the ground? It's not
for me anyway, I want immersion in a sim experience not special cheats which something
like that most definitely has to be.

I don't see how wireframe would help (all it is is a way to get textures not to paint)
with LOD's if they go to zero polys. But someone running a test of however that is
done could show pretty well just what is being drawn or not with the icons I would bet.

Pentallion
09-28-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I will see them fine until that certain range where they go invisible against ground
while I watch. Same plane, same ground, already LOD more than dot. Presto-change-o!
The view limits have been the first big pain for me since day one and this is part.
Very good if combat is all about riding behind another in endless flat circles... so
many of us have asked for some fix for years and then a few people say no, that is
how it is. Sorry but the hard part is FINDING the other plane, not it dissapears
while you are watching in clear sky.
It really screws BnZ even with icons, you can't see if the wings tilt, if the target
is beginning to jink. And that is just perfect if you don't fly BnZ. Perhaps it is
a Leet Skillz to know when your plane will blink out so you can exploit?

This is why I prefer padlock to icons. The subtle movements of the screen clue you into the enemy plane movements where the visual cues are lacking that should be there. But try to find a full real server with just padlock! Seems the only people that put up servers with padlock turn on all kinds of other things as well.

albundy777
09-28-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
I don't have your problem. I can't replicate it with my graphics settings. I believe that you have the problem, certainly. Why then do you have this issue and not I? Graphics setting differentials.

What video card do you use? Nvidea?
It's not a video card or driver issue.

See the thread I linked above (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5581020063). The models for the planes come with premade simplified models to display at greater distances. They are called LOD (level of detail) models. Ideally, when they are far enough, the lower detail should not be noticable.

This game offers two settings (draw distance and object detail) that make the lower LOD models visible at closer distances (along with using lower quality textures). That's absolutely OK. At even meduimish settings, planes use their lowest LOD model before they become dots, which is also OK.

The problem is that some planes have bad low LOD models, where they are not visible at all (or are at least missing important parts like wings).

So, while you may not see the problem with your current settings, which allow you to see only the higher LOD models before they become dots, there are others that play at lower settings, and while they have to sacrifice quality, they should not be required to put up with bugs any more than you.

-

FYI, I just got a 7800 GTX, so I can play at pretty high settings, but for a long time, I couldn't, and I had to put up with these problems.

TX-Gunslinger
09-29-2005, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by albundy777:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
I don't have your problem. I can't replicate it with my graphics settings. I believe that you have the problem, certainly. Why then do you have this issue and not I? Graphics setting differentials.

What video card do you use? Nvidea?
It's not a video card or driver issue.

See the thread I linked above (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5581020063). The models for the planes come with premade simplified models to display at greater distances. They are called LOD (level of detail) models. Ideally, when they are far enough, the lower detail should not be noticable.

This game offers two settings (draw distance and object detail) that make the lower LOD models visible at closer distances (along with using lower quality textures). That's absolutely OK. At even meduimish settings, planes use their lowest LOD model before they become dots, which is also OK.

The problem is that some planes have bad low LOD models, where they are not visible at all (or are at least missing important parts like wings).

So, while you may not see the problem with your current settings, which allow you to see only the higher LOD models before they become dots, there are others that play at lower settings, and while they have to sacrifice quality, they should not be required to put up with bugs any more than you.

-

FYI, I just got a 7800 GTX, so I can play at pretty high settings, but for a long time, I couldn't, and I had to put up with these problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Great post, excellent demonstrations, but that is not what I'm taking about. I tried the SBD and Seafire models on my rig right now, and they do the same thing. So, I do have this problem, I just didn't see it before, because I don't usually fly against or with Seafires and SBD's. You win.

It's great that you found LOD issues with 4 aircraft in the sim. Someone referred to the KI-61 previously. That perhaps makes 5. How many more aircraft have this issue?

This LOD bug you've documented needs to be fixed. I hope it's addressed in the upcoming patch. Of course, now I realize that I'm taking about issues which effect the detection range of dots, prior to the initial LOD stages of model rendering, which probably are not be the cause of the issue Tipo_man posted. Maybe you'll cut me a little slack here, as the issues I'm complaining about affect visiblity for all aircraft in the sim, not just 5.

Unfortunatly, you missed the entire point of my post, taking it to mean, "if it wasn't a problem for me, then it should'nt be a problem for anyone". That's not the context of what I wrote. Look again. My point was just the opposite.

As far as initial detection of aircraft, higher graphics settings make things worse. Turning up tree/water/ground/lighting detail and resolution, particularly on the newer maps (New Guinea, Normandy etc..) with more detail results in less ablity to spot aircraft objects out to the mp_dotrange setting of the server.

In your case, this is particularly sad as you have a very nice, expensive card and video setup which will get eaten alive by a 64 Mb graphics card operating at 800 X 600 with eye candy turned down, in terms of the detection performance of enemy aircraft.

Now, I would ask Tipo_man what was the type of aircraft that disapeared in front of his 109? By his post, he says he likes to fly "real servers, with mature players, well defined planesets, and real setting of course", so I'm left to wonder how an SBD or Seafire got in that mix with a 109?

If the aircraft that "disapeared" on him was one of the low-level LOD bugged aircraft, then I'm done here. I'll take my visibility issues to another thread.

Oh yeah, I run an ATI 9800XT at 1024 X 768 and sometimes 800 X 600. I'd buy a new card, but it would'nt do me a dang bit of good.

S~

Gun

Triple_AA
10-01-2005, 03:39 PM
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, it's the sim and not your pc! Saying it's the users fault is a lame and worn out excuse which I'm real tired of hearing.

Don't get me wrong, my aim is not to bash the sim, personally I think it's great, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it's flaws.

Sure, all the differant systems may be a contributing factor, but I think most users are pretty much in agreement that FB is the real culprit.

FB's poor distance rendering of the aircraft, from disappearing planes to their turn invisable contrast against the ground or against the deep blue high altitude sky is a fault in the programming of the sim. Perhaps because the emphasis was on other things, who knows.

I will point out for comparison purposes that there were no such problems with EAW, which had/has great plane rendering at any distance and against any background, nor do I remember any such problems with Janes World War 2 Fighters.

Both, especially EAW, offered very realistic rendering of the aircraft whether near, medium or far, and there was never any confusion as to what you were looking at. They always seemed, IMHO, to be very realistic and perfectly suited to PC monitors.

Oleg and company, (And please don't get me wrong, because I think their hard work and ongoing support of the sim is fantastic) did for what ever reason, fall way short in the plane rendering department.

The disappearing planes and how they blend (Way to well) into the background has been a constant source of irritation for me since day one, and judging by what I've read over the years at the various forums, others feel the same way.

Unfortunatly I don't think the problem will ever be fixed. We'll all just have to live with it. That's a shame but I think Olegs efforts seem to be targeted towards the technical side of things, ie flight modeling and new planes and not graphics improvements such as the rendering.

Hopefully, and I can only pray, the poor distance rendering won't be an issue in the soon to be released BoB.

WWMaxGunz
10-01-2005, 03:53 PM
EAW has a very good view system, still second to Rowans Mig Alley Ace from later 1999 that
gave the smooth 8 direction hat panning and cockpit glass reflections.

View systems are a heavy part of both function and immersion to any flight sim. I give the
IL2 series view system a C+ at best in this regard which coupled with all the A and A+ level
elements has always been one of the killers for me. No smooth hat pan built in and the LOD
dissapearing planes... for over 4 years now. I'd happily have never seen a US or Brit plane
in trade for an equivalent to MA view system! Proper trim and I'd walk stunned for a week.

Tipo_Man
10-20-2005, 04:51 AM
Well,
Tryed 4.02... and obviously nothing has changed.
Meanwhile tried several different drivers, setting etc...No improvement.
Other players online say the same. Some planes (maybe depends on their skin, don't know), just disappear when go below the horizon!

RAF238thKnight
10-20-2005, 05:18 AM
When working with Building a hurricane for CFS3 and FS 9 I understand the LOD issue. I feel that time to fix all of these would be time wasted.

PLS understand I would like to see things get better for the merged game, but the BoB should be addressing these concerns RIGHT now. Since it is the next generation and going to take us into the future.

Outside modelers who plan to build for the BoB need to know that there work can be pulled from the sim if they do not meet the demands of 1C.

Again it is a bug but should we go into every model to make sure of issues not covered or address the TIME issue and focus on the BoB and upgrading it.

Just my thoughts.
1280X960- Everything on Perfect and NO AA or ANTI filtering. I see planes well past 5000m.
Geforce 5900 OC beyond beleif LOL.

Knight

Tipo_Man
10-20-2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
When working with Building a hurricane for CFS3 and FS 9 I understand the LOD issue. I feel that time to fix all of these would be time wasted.

PLS understand I would like to see things get better for the merged game, but the BoB should be addressing these concerns RIGHT now. Since it is the next generation and going to take us into the future.

Outside modelers who plan to build for the BoB need to know that there work can be pulled from the sim if they do not meet the demands of 1C.

Again it is a bug but should we go into every model to make sure of issues not covered or address the TIME issue and focus on the BoB and upgrading it.

Just my thoughts.
1280X960- Everything on Perfect and NO AA or ANTI filtering. I see planes well past 5000m.
Geforce 5900 OC beyond beleif LOL.

Knight

I don't think this relates to some planes in the game. In the pics it is a Yak which is not visible, which is made by Maddox team, not by a third party modeller.
Maybe I need to tune something in the config.ini, which I tried alot without success, I do not know.
But this is really a huge issue for me.

ucanfly
10-20-2005, 02:32 PM
This and the unrealistically limited rear and even forward views are the most annoying aspects of this sim. It is simply amazing to me that the 3.01 patch holds the record as the shortest lived patch in FB history, my eyes really miss the visibility we had on that one.

TheGozr
10-20-2005, 03:13 PM
Totaly agree with TX-Gunslinger


A other subject but similar
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/5451061963

Von_Rat
10-20-2005, 04:46 PM
its just plain stupid that even though i have a decent computer, i have to play at low resoloution and detail just to see the dam dots, not just some dots, all of them.

carguy_
10-20-2005, 05:32 PM
The B&Z community is far too little to force the issue to be resolved.3.01 dots were really good,the best IMO but Oleg said majority of Russian pilots didn`t like them.

Ofcourse a big part of the western community didn`t want 3.01 dots because they were "ugly".
So instead of actually being able to trace the target we end up with "pretty" dots that are impossible to trace.

Also the vast majority of pilots commmunity are T&Bers.Go figure.

LEXX_Luthor
10-20-2005, 08:12 PM
carguy::
The B&Z community is far too little to force the issue to be resolved.3.01 dots were really good,the best IMO but Oleg said majority of Russian pilots didn`t like them.
Russia may be a generation behind in video cards (overall speaking), and so still run at low resolution. The tiny dots are designed for 1024x768 and they work well at that resolution. Above that, they approach invisibility. Of course, one wonders why Oleg bothered creating the mythical water=3 for the latest and most expensive Nvida cards but still designs his game around 1024x768. Sad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

StrikeFighters has the *best* rendering and view system. There are NO DOTS. Instead, the lowest LOD is it, beyond that the plane vanishes. Sadly, the default max LOD distance is usually far too short, so you often see complaints at StrikeFighter's webboards that planes vanish. The solution is easy...increase the LOD distance in the aircraft text file -- StrikeFighters configuration files are not encrypted like in this sim.

Smooth Zoom: StrikeFighters offers a smooth Zoom in/out view which lets the player keep track of the target during Zoom changes. In FB/PF, the old fashioned "jump" Zoom shifts the target in the monitor and you lose sight of it if its a dot. StrikeFighter's smooth Zoom works well with the smooth increase/decrease in LOD size as you smoothly zoom in/out. In fact, I use StrikeFighters smooth Zoom constantly during a dogfight where you dare not use any Zoom change in this sim because you lose the Dot. lol.

Sadly again...the default StrikeFighters smooth Zoom settings are totally unusable (cripplingly slow actually), but are also easily changed to taste (fast response yet still smooth) with minor changes in a settings text file.

Jetbuff
10-20-2005, 10:36 PM
There are three distinct visibility issues:

1. InvisiDots: At certain ranges and against various backgrounds (dark blue sky above 4000m and sky/horizon border) plane dots will vanish inexplicably. This gets worse at higher resolutions. There is a solution though: increasing the DOT setting in-game to approx. 25km. (works even if icons are off) The ultimate solution would be if the game were designed to allow the dang dots to scale with the resolution instead of occupying a set number of pixels; try the game at 800x600 to see what I mean...

2. Missing/corrupt LOD's: affects a limited number of planes and, while annoying, is rare enough - and most times inconsequential - to be bearable. Which is just as well since nothing short of a miracle will allow them to be fixed.

3. Super-camo: Some planes have the un-nerving ability to blend into the background even at minimum range. (it's happened at less than 500m before!) The problem seems to reside in the tones of camouflage being too close to the underlying terrain. While the obvious argument is that that is the purpose of camouflage, you must keep in mind that painted, moving metal rarely matches underlying terrain, esp. if at any significant elevation. For this one there is no solution (at least none that I have found) and it is perhaps the most irritating of the visibility problems imo because I cannot justify it enough to maintain my suspension of disbelief; default skins ameliorate the problem but there are still default camos that are too similarly toned to their backgrounds. Ideally, we'd get a new set of default skins that had enough contrast not to melt into the background - think winter camos, white on white but you can still distinctly see the planes. (which is actually quite topsy-turvy if you think about it - snow is one of the best backdrops for a good camo design)

Badsight.
10-20-2005, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by ucanfly:
It is simply amazing to me that the 3.01 patch holds the record as the shortest lived patch in FB history. aint that the truth

man was that ever a fix that happened fast

KOM.Nausicaa
10-21-2005, 09:47 AM
"1. InvisiDots: At certain ranges and against various backgrounds (dark blue sky above 4000m and sky/horizon border) plane dots will vanish inexplicably. This gets worse at higher resolutions. There is a solution though: increasing the DOT setting in-game to approx. 25km"

How can you do that?

LEXX_Luthor
10-21-2005, 05:13 PM
Like this...

Here is my "rcu" file...



@set fast off
@set echo on
@set alias on
@set history 20

@alias h history
@alias s show

@alias f fps SHOW START
@alias nf fps SHOW STOP

@alias 10 mp_dotrange COLOR .01 DOT 10 RANGE .01 TYPE .01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01
@alias 15 mp_dotrange COLOR .01 DOT 15 RANGE .01 TYPE .01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01
@alias 20 mp_dotrange COLOR .01 DOT 20 RANGE .01 TYPE .01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01
@alias q mp_dotrange COLOR .01 <span class="ev_code_yellow">DOT 25</span> RANGE .01 TYPE .01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01
@alias r mp_dotrange COLOR .01 DOT 25 RANGE 5.0 TYPE .01 ID 0.01 NAME 0.01

This lets you use the Chat console, described in the manual, to change Dotrange as well as several other things. For example ~> when I enter Chat mode, I type "q" and hit ENTER to get the dot settings shown in bold above. I use the "q" setup for most of my flying and I use the little "q" key because its right next to the TAB button so the whole keyboard process is short and painless.

The problem with the post-3.01 dotrange settings is that the dotrange is porked now, and if it helps you pick up tiny dots, it makes the tiny dots visible for much too great a distance. The 3.01 dots were multi-pixels at medium ranges and turned into single pixel dots at long range. The current single pixel dots (for all ranges) don't vary much with range, so you lose ability to judge range by the size of the dots (always a single pixel).

Tipo_Man
10-26-2005, 02:26 AM
Can't stop posting pictures.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/inv4.gif


Maybe we need a radar to see the enemy...

Chadburn
10-26-2005, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
Can't stop posting pictures.
Maybe we need a radar to see the enemy...

As far as our inability to see planes, missing wings on Spits, invisible LODs...in my opinion, it means the game is broken.

There is nothing more frustrating than to spot a plane, close distance on it, and then have it disappear from sight. Or to dogfight and not be able to track your enemy at reasonable distances. And I'm talking at under a 1000m.

Tweaking flight models, damage models, and adding realsistic details are all very nice, but if you simply can't see the other planes, then the game doesn't work at a very basic level.

TheGozr
10-26-2005, 11:10 AM
majority of Russian pilots don't like them No wonder i know why. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

antifreeze
10-26-2005, 03:34 PM
There is an Nvidia driver setting which will cause exactly this effect. I experienced it, found out what was causing it, and made the 1C team aware of it. They were able to reproduce it, and they included a note about it in one of the ReadMe files for one of the patches (4.01 I think... I can't remember).

It is a setting called 'intellisample'. It is not included in the normal Nvidia GUI. I edited mine by using the 'RivaTuner' 3rd party application. But it is perfectly feasible that settings in another game or application can access and change this 'hidden' setting. Note that no setting in PF/FB edits intellisample. This means you can adjust PF/FB settings thousands of times and still not be able to correct the problem which another program has unwittingly created for you.

Intellisample affects texture compression and quality. On my card (Ti4600), if intellisample is edited at all toward a 'performance' setting, aircraft disappear between 300-1200m but then reappear at larger distances. I have to keep intellisample at default.
This happens on MY card, but it is also perfectly feasible that on different cards, if texture settings are adjusted away from the default settings, similar symptoms will occur. 1C Maddox's advice in the ReadMe was simply to keep all texture settings to your card's default. Easier said than done if you don't realise that choosing 'performance' on a slider in another game may affect PF/FB due to a 'hidden' global texture setting. My advice is to check all your texture settings are set to default or 'quality'. Try to find out if there are any 'hidden' settings for your card which could be accessed by other programs.

In addition, it is an absolutely MUST to check the server settings when you see these symptoms. I thought my 'bug' had come back one time when I dropped into the UK-Dedicated server. But actually, they have really silly DOT settings in there (it was 500m the time I dropped in; I think they've increased to 1000m since then). Of course, with a DOT setting so low, the aircraft become completely invisible beyond that distance. Self-induced madness!
So before you spend time and effort going through your texture settings, make sure it isn't just an inappropriate DOT setting on the server. You can check the server's DOT setting by typing 'mp_dotrange' into the console.

I checked my LOD and DOTS just now for the SBD aircraft, as they have just been discussed. I have 'normal' set for the object detail. The LOD and DOTS were absolutely fine. Only *my own* aircraft suddenly disappeared (at 2km). The other SBDs, both friendly and enemy, were fully visible until 5km, they then faded nicely until between 8-9km when they became too faint to see against the sky. No turning-white, missing parts, or sudden vanishing. 1152x865 resolution, openGL, DOT=25km. I'm not saying that other players don't have problems, just that I had the problem and solved it.

Whilst I think aircraft can be seen clearly at larger distances than 8km in real life, I also feel that 8km is a good distance for the size of most of the maps and missions we have. A little stealth ability makes things more interesting. I just wish DOT=25km was the default (as opposed to 14km), with the option of increasing it if the host wished. As it is, 25km is the maximum.

Tipo_Man
10-27-2005, 04:34 AM
Thanks for the suggestion Antifreeze, but this is not a driver issue I think. Here is another picture, taken offline. Maybe later I will be able to post a simple track, with 2 planes , one of them invisible. I hope some of you would run them and this tell what they see.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/inv6.gif

antifreeze
10-27-2005, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Antifreeze, but this is not a driver issue

I can only describe my problem and my solution. You may have disappearing aircraft too, but I could not say whether the cause is the same. Just to ask you something more about your symptoms; do aircraft reappear after a certain distance? In my problem, the entire aircrafts would disappear somewhere between 300-500m and reappear as fully formed LODs between 1000-1200m. You haven't mentioned what make of video card you have.

Referring back to the description of my problem, it's not a driver 'issue' or a driver 'bug'. It is just a limitation of the game. FB/PF simply cannot use some methods or extremes of texture compression that some cards can actually apply.

Further, if a video card texture setting has been altered globally by the operating system, a driver-tweaker, or any other software, there is nothing in the FB/PF set-up that can undo the setting.

Post a track if you wish, but I can assure you that unless I edit my video card's global texture settings, I will definitely not see aircraft or objects suddenly vanish.