View Full Version : Luthier, please answer this

05-20-2004, 06:36 PM
Have you received any of the stuff I sent you re the RAF & RNZAF. It was sent to the adddress you said it should go to (luthier@il2center.com), but so far not even a read receipt has come back. Can you confirm receipt of the stuff please.

I have been trying to get hold of you since then, and I know you are back on the forums now.

Please, I am trying to help contribute to PF, but I've got to know if you've got the stuff, what you think of it, and what else you need. There are already enough threads here saying it's going to be the US vs Japan. Let's see if we can get more sides in the initial relase than just them.

If you don't want to contact me here, look for the emails I sent you (name of "castel") and reply to those or to castel@xtra.co.nz (I didn't want that email address published but as I've already been added to the US-based spam mail lists it makes no difference now.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif )

Please respond luthier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I want to help - let me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

[This message was edited by Owl_NZ on Thu May 20 2004 at 09:24 PM.]

05-20-2004, 06:36 PM
Have you received any of the stuff I sent you re the RAF & RNZAF. It was sent to the adddress you said it should go to (luthier@il2center.com), but so far not even a read receipt has come back. Can you confirm receipt of the stuff please.

I have been trying to get hold of you since then, and I know you are back on the forums now.

Please, I am trying to help contribute to PF, but I've got to know if you've got the stuff, what you think of it, and what else you need. There are already enough threads here saying it's going to be the US vs Japan. Let's see if we can get more sides in the initial relase than just them.

If you don't want to contact me here, look for the emails I sent you (name of "castel") and reply to those or to castel@xtra.co.nz (I didn't want that email address published but as I've already been added to the US-based spam mail lists it makes no difference now.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1241.gif )

Please respond luthier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I want to help - let me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

[This message was edited by Owl_NZ on Thu May 20 2004 at 09:24 PM.]

05-20-2004, 10:56 PM
Please. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

05-20-2004, 11:14 PM
Luthier for sure seen this thread and if he didnt read your mail, he will, if it is worth to him.
What do you want from him?
Not only having to read hundread of mails, but also reply individualy to all of the people who send them, that he recived them and read?, give a break man

05-21-2004, 12:07 AM
bump for Owl

"Not all who wander are lost."

05-21-2004, 12:12 AM
the problem is that he got hundrets of mails , and the modellers cant reach him because of this



05-21-2004, 12:13 AM
Hey luthier look here


sorry couldnt resist

05-21-2004, 12:21 AM
Cmon people Luthier is not dumb, he seen this thread for sure.
Why do you want him to reply that he seen it? This is hilarius.

05-21-2004, 03:41 AM
Right, to address the questions and concerns of some re this thread.

Take a good long hard look at my post total, then look at everyone elses. Then retract aforementioned "attention *****" comments. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I don't want him to reply to say "hey I've seen it". That is of no use. What I am after is either a dialog bia email or this thread so that I can ensure what is sent to him meets his needs and is of use to ensure the RNZAF & RAF are in PF and accurate.

Reason this thread exists is that in the old days long ago when PF was first announced, luthier had a general request up for information on any and all subjects, especially on not-as-common information. At that time I responded and offered to let him know whatever he needed to know (that I could provide) about the RAF and especially the RNZAF movements/deployments in the Pacific theatre. He said send it to him, and I duly did send him stuff (not all, as I need to know if it'll be used as it will be a lot of research work which I have no problem doing but I don't wish to waste my time or his if it isn't going be used). That was in early April (RNZAF) and early May (the RAF). The main stuff was sent in April, and I asked via email for him to confirm what was sent was what he wanted and if so I'd send all other details. (reason for that being there is no point sending him everything if he's never going to use it or knows it already).

Around that time he noted (on the forums) he had a mountain of emails to get through. I said nothing till May. Recently the impression I get is that this program is to come out sooner rather than later which means the cutoff for submissions is close. Since early May I have tried emailing, Private Topic'ing, thread posting, joining il2center, everything short of flying to Russia and stalking him. No joy as yet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I don't want the RNZAF, RAF or any other country to be denied involvement in this program because I or anyone else failed to do anything to help about it. If this is a stand-alone, one-off program then if it isn't in now, it NEVER WILL BE. I don't know about you, but I am f**king sick of the Pacific war being treated as "the US vs Japan". We (yes "WE" - Britain, Australia, New Zealand, Dutch East Indies, China, Burma, India etc et al) all fought in it. I'm sorry if that doesn't tally with your history books, but it is the truth. Deal with it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

I, like Copperhead, am merely trying my best to contribute in some way to ensure as many people as possible get a fair representation and acknowledgement of involvement in the Pacific War, and that it is accurate. If you don't want that, go play M$ CFS.

So, if that is how you define me as an "attention *****" then I AM F**KING GLAD TO BE ONE. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
But I will not sit idle & quietly watch this program fail to be all it can be if I can help it. So I will be here bumping this thread until the day I die, the last patch is released, the forum is closed, or luthier responds. The latter is preferable of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif but either way, I am here for the long haul.

05-21-2004, 04:11 AM
Owl they may need to get the thing working first, with New, Bigger, and MORE clouds, and get it releaced. Wait for FP Patch if you must.

Also the pop conception here is "carrier" warfare, a small tiny percentage of what really happened in the WAR with Japan. But "carriers" are what everybody thinks of, from watching teh USA Dogfighter Channel, and for better or worse most carriers were USA carriers.

Japan used carriers in their WAR against China even in 1937, but nobody is interested in Japanese carriers either. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Don't say other nations will "never" be represented in a Pacific flight sim. Oleg did alot to represent Finland in FB, and Oleg will be making a new Pacific sim from scratch sometime after BoB hopefully with engine designed from beginning to mod carrier operations. How many flight simmers ever heard of Finland? Or heard of Russia for that matter lol.

New Zealand's Cleopatra2525 Sunday mornings USA SciFi Channel (5-6 AM EST lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )
http://www.xenite.org/exchange/standard/cleorenpictures.jpg (http://www.sf-fandom.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=19)

05-21-2004, 04:43 AM
FP can grow alot with Patches. Think of original IL~2 game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

05-21-2004, 11:11 AM
bah i cant stop looking at that girl, wonder what this topic is about...


05-21-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
bah i cant stop looking at that girl, wonder what this topic is about...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif She does have a sweeeeeeet body!

05-21-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif She does have a sweeeeeeet body!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the *ahem* "inverted attitude" only adds to the effect.

What was the topic again?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall


Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

05-21-2004, 01:34 PM
Look at the far tanker ship at top of girl pic. If this is FP screenshot ...oh Luthier This is better than animated pilot briefing room or the New, Bigger, MORE um...I forgot. Who looks at clouds anyway?


05-23-2004, 09:13 PM
It's Monday, and the bump continues.

Come on luthier, PLEASE make contact. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

05-23-2004, 11:05 PM
I've also added a private topic (again) luthier, so if I've done that right you should have one for "RNZAF & RAF Pacific Data" as well.

Come on, please respond. I don't bite. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

05-23-2004, 11:12 PM
Evidently Luthier really needs a public relations man (or something) to help handle his burden.

"Not all who wander are lost."

05-24-2004, 03:46 AM
It'd help necro. Great idea. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bumped to ensure maximum possible attention for luthier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

05-24-2004, 03:49 AM
Bump for the Kiwis.

CrazySchmidt. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Have been here from the beginning, will be here till the end."

"Mission Mate" is coming!

05-24-2004, 05:53 AM
Thanks CrazySchmidt. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bumped again in case luthier reads threads at 4pm his time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

05-24-2004, 12:39 PM
you say all this he is to busy etc

But if he asks fo help with XYZ plane in here he must read the replies, only a complete muppet wouldnt, how long does it take to sign in and type yes thank you or another answer.........................

05-24-2004, 04:29 PM
About two minutes for the login, variable for the answer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Yes, it is hard work. It's much worse than for say us, as all we have to do is sign in, type bump, thank you or another answer. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Actaully, now that I think about it, it's exactly the same thing isn't it.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif But yes, maybe luthier's focus is being distracted away from his core mission, namely making PF. But unless I've missed the signs on this, we won't be seeing PF by xmas, it just seems there is too much to do.

Anyway, I have offered other communicatons alternatives (Private Topics, emailing me direct (best way to get a response) etc. I want to help, have sent stuff it as well, but helping is a two-way street. You need to know your help is what is needed/is right, otherwise it isn't help. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Right now, I can't see the RNZAF or any other side except the US & Japan (& maybe even the RAF if we are super-duper lucky) getting in....That's what is so sad about the whole thing.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif How long did it take for all current sides to get represented in FB? Two years? PF won't be being developed in one years' time I expect, so that's why I'm pushing for this. It wasn't just the US on the Allies side.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Shame this thread is on to page two now and still no reply from the man. Please luthier, respond. Even if it's just to say "not doing RNZAF or RAF at this time, I'll ask for them later". It's the not-knowing that is the worst bit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

[This message was edited by Owl_NZ on Mon May 24 2004 at 03:38 PM.]

05-24-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Look at the far tanker ship at top of girl pic. If this is FP screenshot _...oh Luthier_ This is better than animated pilot briefing room or the New, Bigger, MORE um...I forgot. Who looks at clouds anyway?

LEXX I never saw that tanker http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

http://www.bestofhumor.com/funnies2/attention*****.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

05-24-2004, 10:03 PM
Another day, another bump.

Please respond luthier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

05-25-2004, 12:26 AM

"Not all who wander are lost."

05-25-2004, 03:40 AM
Bump again....

05-25-2004, 09:12 AM
A bump out of pity... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif


05-25-2004, 09:24 PM
A new day dawns, another bump occurs. I see a pattern emerging here, and it's not boding great for the small sides in PF.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif

05-25-2004, 10:30 PM

"Not all who wander are lost."

05-25-2004, 11:45 PM
Thanks necrobaron. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

05-26-2004, 01:14 AM
bump for a fellow kiwi, also keen to fly with RNZAF colours.

05-26-2004, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owl_NZ:
Thanks necrobaron. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"Not all who wander are lost."

05-26-2004, 03:58 AM
Thanks uberweng. I'll get the RNZAF in even if I have to make a skin of every RNZAF P-40, Corsair, Dauntless and Avenger myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


I really don't want to have to resort to the threats to kill the kitten. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Please,luthier, be a sport. Some sign of life would help.

05-26-2004, 09:03 AM
For the love of the children... Save a kitten.



05-26-2004, 07:41 PM
To put it politely and to help it on its way with a bump....... you have as much chance of getting and answer from him as my rear end has of healing over..............................

We should have a whip round and get him the book Internet for Dummies for his Birthday, only flaw in that is he would have to answer the post asking for the address to send it to.......ahhh catch 22 and speaking of catch 22 when are we gonna see a b25 cockpit?

05-26-2004, 09:04 PM
Welcome to the Thursday edition of "Bump". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

The kitten is not in danger folks. i don't hurt animals. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Speaking of things not in danger, apparently this thread isn't in much danger of receiving a reply from luthier either....Taylortony is right (as usual). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif But luthier did give that brief glimmer of hope the other day when he answered that other thread. Was that the monthly get-an-answer-winner???? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Still, if luthier is doing all the work single-handedly for this then the credits list will be mercifully short. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Need bigger bumps for this thread. Either that or if CrazyIvan or another mod would be so kind as to make it a sticky or alert luthier to this thread (and the others from Copperhead and i16fan), then we might just get some work done and help luthier save himself from the stress. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by Owl_NZ on Thu May 27 2004 at 12:16 AM.]

05-27-2004, 01:17 AM

05-27-2004, 01:35 AM
Is there a record for most bump of a single thread or most bumps by an single person? if not i suggest that Owl_NZ should be recognised as holding the second record.

05-27-2004, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uberweng:
Is there a record for most bump of a single thread or most bumps by an single person? if not i suggest that Owl_NZ should be recognised as holding the second record.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you. I'd like to thank the Academy for this award. It means sooo much.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'd happily trade that award for a discourse with luthier over this topic though.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Bump. Maybe luthier will contribute by answering this thread's lead question tomorrow. (Oh, and if you are reading this thread luthier and going "What's he on about?! I've sent that gringo a reply already", I'm sorry luthier, but I haven't seen anything from you. Please send it again). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

05-27-2004, 09:12 AM
People are starving in China.


05-27-2004, 01:55 PM
People are starving in the UK and America too..... I cannot believe we donate millions to third world countries, yet let a portion of our population sleep in cardboard boxes................ ahhhh sigh up she goes again

05-27-2004, 03:41 PM
Sorry I have turned this thread from a downer to something even worse. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Oh and don't forget to spey or neuter your pets...


05-27-2004, 10:10 PM
World-politics not withstanding, bump. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

05-28-2004, 10:13 AM
A bump for the weary...



05-29-2004, 09:36 AM
I came.. I saw.. I bumped http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

05-30-2004, 09:24 PM
Thanks Taylortony & SKULLS Virga.

Anyway, new week, same old story. Still waiting for luthier.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

05-31-2004, 04:29 AM
Wearily he bumps the thread once more....

05-31-2004, 10:20 PM
luthier, luthier, where art thou luthier? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

06-01-2004, 02:46 AM
Bump again.

06-01-2004, 10:06 AM
My legs are getting tired...


06-01-2004, 09:53 PM
Your legs aren't the only getting tired of this SKULLS Virga, i tell ya.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Bump (again)....

06-02-2004, 03:50 AM
BUMP. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

06-02-2004, 04:39 AM
Luthier is on a 2 week vacation.
Back in apx. 1 week.

Now Thunak on the other hand. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif


"Maybe for someone more easy to write something than to make something?"
- Oleg Maddox

06-02-2004, 05:24 AM
Thank you for that Vengeanze. Now I can save wasting my time and efforts for when he IS here.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Still, if it means he answers his 2 month+ old emails and the 2 week or more old threads from i16fan, Copperhead and myself re help with items/details/OOB for PF, then I should think we'll all be happy.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hope you're enjoying your holiday luthier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-02-2004, 07:05 AM
owl, where in NZ do you live?
I am from christchurch.


06-05-2004, 04:29 PM
up we go

06-05-2004, 05:01 PM
Sorry uberweng, I plum forgot to reply you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif I'm in Feilding (NW of Palmerston North) and not too far from Ohakea AFB.

Thanks Taylortony. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I haven't forgotten to bump this thing, I was just saving wasting my time until the start of this week when luthier "apparently" is back.

06-06-2004, 08:58 PM
Hopefully he's back, well rested, and prepared to talk.

luthier, hopefully you've had a good hols. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Can you please confirm your email address for sending the stuff to, as I want to make sure it went to the right place (as I read you had/have troubles with the il2center one). If you don't want to post the address here, you can email me at castel@xtra.co.nz and then I'll know where to send the RNZAF & RAF stuff to. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

06-07-2004, 03:37 AM

06-07-2004, 05:57 PM
Hopefully the early bump catches the worm (or at least the attention of luthier).

06-07-2004, 08:01 PM
Bumpity, bump, bump, bump!!

Think this thread has a record for bumps at the moment. Now for the bruises http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

06-07-2004, 09:41 PM
Wow never thought I'd make it long enough to see page 4.


06-07-2004, 10:13 PM
me neither.


06-08-2004, 01:01 AM
Well, it's not quite what I had in mind for contributing to PF either.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

If anyone can confirm the luthier email address where I can be guaranteed he'll get the stuff, it'd be greatly appreciated. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In two and a half weeks time I'll have time to complete the info on the RNZAF (I might even get the chance to go to the National Archives to confirm stuff if I'm lucky).

06-08-2004, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Luthier is on a 2 week vacation.
Back in apx. 1 week.

You had better be f'ckin' kidding me. The dev team is about to mutiny.

06-08-2004, 05:34 AM
I'd make a joke about luthier modelling pirates in PF if it wasn't for the fact that I think PlaneEater isn't joking.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The list of aggrieved/frustrated people seems to be increasing. This isn't good.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

06-08-2004, 10:51 AM
Off on our way to page 5...


06-08-2004, 09:09 PM
"High ho, high ho, it's off to page 5 we go".

I reckon he actually looks at this thread, and is just waiting to see what score it gets up to. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

06-09-2004, 03:52 AM
Bump from NZ

06-09-2004, 05:49 AM
Bump from the UK. Please let the Commonwealth in!

06-09-2004, 09:45 PM
Thanks Seafire_LIII & Petey78, here's hoping this isn't ANOTHER US vs Japan attempt at the Pacific theatre. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

On to today - the forecast is for occasional bumps, interspersed with long periods of silence from luthier.

Long range forecast - oh, it's not good is it.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

06-10-2004, 04:16 AM
Bump. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

06-10-2004, 08:52 AM
Bump again, but with some add to the discussion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm modelling for the game and can't make contact with Luthier at all since more than a month... I'm at the lod's stage, since texturing and damage will be done by someone else.

I ran out of time to complete this, because of a simillar issue back on december '03 january '04, when I lost contact for more than two months, because of a bad email address, costing me part of the work I should have done.

I've sent a couple mails asking for information on specs of the lods, since with the add of null material polys, their amounts have changed, etc.

I don't know how, but i think that communication between him and we (modellers) cannot be interrupted, and a P.R. guy who can at least answer a mail would be a great help.

If this absence continues I'll be out of time to complete anything, and my time has a cost, not to mention I have refused other modeling requests because I'm already on this project and want to have the job done.

Also the brand new copy of max 5.1 that I bought most than anything for this project has one... and i'm still paying monthly for it.

Please respond to modelers requests.

Many Thanks.


06-10-2004, 10:28 PM
Thanks for that Meshsmoother. Hope he replies you soon. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There seems to be an undercurrent of disgruntled modelers/helpers here. Are things alright with PF or is something significantly major distracting luthier's attention from the program, because while I can understand the data/work I'm doing/offering being considered a low priority (ie one of the last things added to the program), I would have thought keeping modelers like Gibbage, Meshsmoother et al onside would be rather important. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Here's hoping a reply appears soon before things can pear-shaped. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

06-11-2004, 03:01 AM
I smell a troll. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But, assuming that last lot wasn't trolling or indeed even tongue-in-cheek, then might I suggest that given he appears to be incommunicado with nearly the entire modeling/data sourcing community, that this is the biggest one-fingered salute ever seen outside the State of Texas. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

If he is making it all himself, why ever announce it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

06-11-2004, 03:04 AM
I don't think silence is an appropriate reply. As you can see elsewhere in the forums that just gets up a lot of noses. In most parts of the world it's just good manners to say "thanks" or "thanks, but no thanks" when somebody's offered their help.
I offered help to Luthier ages ago and got a very polite reply suggesting areas I could help. I replied that would be Ok and haven't heard anything since. Like Owl_NZ I'm puzzled, a bit miffed, and wondering if PF will be a bit one-dimensional on the historical side.

06-11-2004, 03:19 AM
Droopsnoot, I've got a great deal of respect for you, but you're waaaaay off base here...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If what you have provided him was not suitable,and he is not going to use it,you have already gotten your answer.

His silence itself is your answer.

If he deems it not suitable for use he does not need to send you any rejection slip, nor would he have any need to notify you of its insuitability. All he needs to do is just not use it.

No, not ok, and you of all people, with as many years in the work world under your belt as you have, should know better. This is not how the work world functions. I don't know if you realized it when you made your post, but Mesh, myself, Gibbage, Majesty5, Harti, and others are working under contract with Luthier, and ultimately, under 1C:Maddox games and Ubisoft. He is, for all intents and purposes, our boss on this project.

Simply 'not answering' is not ok. We are contractually bound to finish the work we signed on for, and Luthier is just as responsible for holding up his end of the system as we are. If it doesn't get finished because he never got back to us or disappeared for a month or two without any warning, it is HIS FAULT.

If something doesn't cut it, he has to tell us why and how, and then we have to fix it. That's exactly what happened with one of the planes I did. It didn't cut it the first time, Luthier said so, and I fixed it.

If you were in any other job and you did something that, for some reason, didn't meet specs, and it wasn't because of something you knew about beforehand, you'd be pretty torqued if your boss never said anything to you about it ever again. Common courtesy is he'd tell you it wasn't good enough, and either get someone else or tell you how to fix it.

In this case, it's not just common courtesy, it's a business contract and a legal arrangement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
All he risks is alienating you, and by your actions I would guess he has already done that

It's not just Mesh. It's the entire development crew, with the exception of the guys at 1C:Maddox who are doing the extra programming. Consider it writing on the wall that all of this is only now creeping out onto the public PF forum. You *don't* want to see the full-fledged inferno about this that's going on in the private modeler's forum at Netwings, which the team uses for a developers' forum. Suffice to say, Luthier is extremely close to having a all-out mutiny on his hands, and as far as the dev team can piece it together, it's 99% his fault.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
So if you are alienated....LEAVE!

That's what I would do!

...except the game would never get finished, because it would be the entire dev team leaving.

My apologies if I ripped too large of a new one. The entire dev team is ready to chew scrap steel and spit rivets over this.

06-11-2004, 04:08 AM
PlaneEater, in fairness to Droopsnoot, I think his dig was more at me (and my by-comparison insignificant contribution) than at any plane modellers. But at the same time (having perused the Netwings Modellers threads) I can certainly see that something is wrong here.

Scope creep - is that what PF is suffering from? Or is it a lack of appreciation for the scale of the task? Having your team leader go AWOL I know is not a good thing (been there, got the T-shirt) especially if there isn't anyone around to keep the ship afloat. Is there a subordinate/#2/Project Manager on PF? Is that Gibbage? (as he seems to be the default Project Manager in all this).

If it is all luthier as overall leader of the whole thing with no deputy then it's not too hard to pick the problem location.

Is it that everyone is waiting on luthier to respond regarding acceptance/rejection of work? If so, how long is it before some outside source starts making it's presence felt (ie UBI as publisher or 1C maybe)?

06-11-2004, 04:54 AM
The way things are set up, Luthier is basically a one-man bottleneck. I.e, he's a bottleneck because there's only one of him.

Basically, when we need something checked, it has to be him that does it, since he's got all the PF specific stuff.

Then he has to go back and forth between us and Oleg's team to get stuff implemented and coded.

I keep telling him to get a production assistant or at least a secretary, but he doesn't think it would be worth it because they'd essentially be coming to him for answers all the time. Which makes me wonder what he thinks a secretary is...

06-11-2004, 09:05 AM
Wow, PlaneEater that was some interesting reading. But as a fan just reading what's going on, I'm puzzled by the dichotomy. You have a "developers mutiny" brewing on one hand, then you have the announcement of Oleg attending the UK show with Pacific Fighters as the feature product, sounding that all is well and on it's way on the other hand. What gives ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

06-11-2004, 09:45 AM
Exactly. That dichotomy is a perfect example of the problems going on.

There are, essentially, two dev teams and a management branch working on PF: the PF-specific modelers and texturers that Luthier is in charge of, the dozen or so 1C:Maddox employees (Oleg included) in Russia that do the programming and engine side of things, and whoever at Ubisoft is handling the publicity, marketing, etc for PF.

You know how much they communicate with each other?

Almost none. The right hand barely even KNOWS there's a left hand, has no idea what that left hand is doing, same thing for the left hand, and neither of them even KNOW there's a mouth attached to all of it somewhere.

The modeling / texture crew, who does all the ships, planes, tanks, buildings, is under Luthier. We haven't heard from him in more than a month.

Occasionally, we get through to Oleg or Alex Pozorov at 1C:Maddox, in Russia. 99% of the time, we have no idea what is up on that end of things.

And as far as I know, the only folks who even know *who* the people are at Ubisoft that are involved with PF are Luthier, and Oleg's crew. I know Luthier is in contact with them sometimes, and I'd assume Oleg is.

So yeah, the conflicting signals are because the right hand doesn't know that the left hand doesn't know the ankle bone is up to something again.

06-11-2004, 09:46 AM
I, for one, would be VERY interested in getting these questions posed to Oleg at that flight sim show in the UK that is coming up.
I hope it gets answered well before then, but if not...

Great - now I am wondering if PF is going to happen at all,...it was those friggin' booth babes, wasn't it!...ah,well... FB is an excellent sim.


06-11-2004, 10:19 AM
Maybe you did not see them but there were threads posted by Luthier asking for more information. Thats great that you came here with something to offer the community and you were very well and politely recieved. Owl_NZ has something to offer as well and the outcome will be between him and the developers. I request that you give him the same courtesy that was given to you.


06-11-2004, 11:30 AM
Your tail is clear Owl. Carry on...



06-11-2004, 05:27 PM
OK, first off, my humble apologies to Droopsnoot for the trolling bit. That was my bad - I saw the post total (usually a good indication), and leapt to the wrong conclusion.

To clarify this one:

As was pointed out, I asked luthier if he wanted help/data for the RNZAF and RAF in the Pacific: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=997109623

He, as can be seen, supplied an email address to contact him at. (Around this time there was some trouble with email addresses his end apparently). I ticked the "read receipt" option, thinking "ok, he doesn't have the time to read it ATM but he can at least send that back to confirm receipt". None came. Then I saw the email address saga, and this thread came about to confirm whether he got the stuff.

I am "freelance" in this - ie not under contract. I can, as Droopsnoot notes, walk away from it whenever I feel like it. The reason I haven't is that I want to see the RNZAF, RAF (and other sides) get a fair go in PF. It makes sense for them to be in because, contrary to many modern histories and average thinking, the Pacific War was not solely the US vs Japan. The British & Commonwealth did much to tie down the Japanese Army in SE Asia. Australia and NZ kept Rabaul & Bougainville supressed while the US, liberated of this responsibility, was free to continue "island-hopping".

Now, all I am trying to do is to "target" the data supplied to luthier. Without feedback, this is at best difficult, at worst impossible. An example: NZ deployed Lockheed Ventura bombers in the Solomons theatre. There is no point in me getting him data on this if those planes are never going to appear in FB is there? That wastes his time, my time, and is counter-productive. Similiarly, if places like Bougainville aren't in it, there is very little point in sifting through acres of data to find out who was deployed where, when, in what numbers etc if it will never be used.

In this regard, it is very similiar to the problems posed to the modellers. What is the point in expending their time/effort on something that may or may not make it. This is the problem here. If luthier is the only connection on the line, then that just is plain crazy. Let's take this case: redundancy. No, not fired http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif, the technical type of redundancy. What happens if your ISP looses a router. They have others to cover for it.

Some rule applies here. Can you imagine what would happen if luthier is put out of commission by say a disease or an accident (I'm not wishing it on him BTW http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). PF, from what PlaneEater has described, is at a stroke delayed or even cancelled. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

We haven't had a PF update for a couple of weeks now. Is this an omen of the trouble? I know the trouble of getting receipt of information confirmed (went through that with Oleg and the RAF Squadrons....). That is why this thread is constantly bumped by myself (and others).

I hope that this is all resolved, the "mutiny" avoided, and PF is very successful and satisfactory/representative of ALL sides involved.

Thank you to all who are helping. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-11-2004, 06:25 PM
same for me & dizz. I/we contacted him & offerd to help with doing the squadron regimentals for PF at least on the US side. He put out an open call to the public or help at il-2 center & we dedcided to give it our best go. We've sent him the first files & so far we ain't heard $hit. Nadda. Nothing. I realise he's pressed for time & he has a tone of stuff to do. but does it honestly take that long to see the email & type: "Ok guys good work. No get me as many of these as you can, for Aircraft X, Carrier Z, By such & Such Date."

Jeez. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

06-12-2004, 06:24 AM
Still no answers or life signs from Luthier... so... Bump!


06-12-2004, 06:45 AM
youre not a worthy member of this community if u havent bumbed this thread at least once

So ...Bumb!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

06-12-2004, 08:57 AM
Yeah, my bump.

Since a time ago, it seems that contacting the developers is more or less like throwing a message in a bottle.

Owl, don't expect PF to have much Commonwealth action. I've heard from reliable sources that just a few bits of Asia will be on PF. Most action will be South Pacific and will center on US vs Japan carrier-and-island warfare. That is, the same as ever... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There will be Commonwealth planes but they are unlikely to be starring.

Anyway, being out of the dev team, they will NEVER provide you with the data you request. They are very zealous keeping dev data from filtration.

- Dux Corvan -
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

06-12-2004, 04:21 PM
bumpity bump bump from another NZer

06-12-2004, 08:10 PM
You guys will never get any answers by harassing them, as you are doing.

I feel sure you have "bumped " yourself completely out of the loop by now ... and possibly sunk NZ as deep as the Mariannas Trench.

A moments thought tells me that as long as this forum is here PF is alive.Else why is it still here?

06-12-2004, 11:01 PM
Thanks Meshsmoother, gombal40, DuxCorvan & Pete_9. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Droopsnoot, if that were true there are a lot of things that would have been long since bumped out of this game. But assuming you're right - what difference (by your implication) has it made anyway? If we assume that New Zealand, Australian, Britain, Netherlands et al were never going to get in in the first place. To have fought to get something in and failed is much better than to simply go "oh, why didn't they put that in" when it's too late for it to happen.

If luthier didn't want the data, hey would never have said to send him it. He would have instead said "thank you for your offer, but we do not want it/aren't including them".

I don't model aircraft, I don't build maps, I'm not even in the right hemisphere according to some of you, but I am F**KED if I'm going to meekly stand by and let this program degenerate into yet another US air force, "shoot down 30 Japanese planes per mission" game. Many on this forum are pig-sick of that sort of "accurate" game.

IF, and I stress that again, IF that was the attitude of luthier and/or UBI, they should make that abundantly clear at this time (meaning a public statement) so as to save so many people from wasting their time, or being disappointed. Remember the insane volume of whinging from the US fans when the B-25 was missing from AEP, or the P-51 wasn't flyable in FB?? You got your way, why the hell should everyone else dip out to suit you? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

It is time that something was said to this forum by luthier or UBI. Currently it is free-wheeling towards disaster. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

06-13-2004, 02:50 AM
Owl, You have researched this historical data about the battles in that area.

Instead of a "bump" daily, why not present a portion of your research here on this forum every day?. That way, not only Luthier can see it and learn its important place in the Pacific campaigns, but so too can the rest of us potential buyers of PF.

Present it in a fashion to sell us all, including the bean counters, on why it should be included.

Was there anything different about it that would be a novelty for us to take part in?

Anything that has never been done in a sim before?

Any crucial battles that would swing the balance in a dynamic campaign if it didn't go according to History?

I have a dim memory that the Battleship Haruna was thought to have been sunk several times during various battles in the Pacific, yet I saw it during my bombing run , tied up at the docks in Kure bay toward the close of the war.

Did it take part in any of the battles you have researched? I personally would very much like to get a crack at it and REALLY sink it this time! See what I mean?

When you present the material to us on the forum,don't just give us the dry bones, make it LIVE!

So both sides in each skirmish will look forward to changing what they don't like to hear about what really happened.

Then we'll clamor for a NZ campaign; and the bean counters will put it in, even if it means taking something else out.

Cause that's what sells sims! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Sun June 13 2004 at 02:02 AM.]

06-13-2004, 03:19 AM
wel droop has an intressting sugestion,

Do share some stuff owl. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-13-2004, 04:06 AM
HAHAHAHA, good joke Droopsnoot.

For the short-hand version, the RNZAF wasn't the glamour and limelight bunch the US forces were. Most, if not all, of the missions were supression-style - namely patrolling the shorelines of Bougainville for barges attempting to enter/leave the area, bridge destroying (as soon as they knocked them down the Japanese rebuilt them). They aslo did plenty of shipping protection patrols, copious amounts of scrambles, CAP's and supression missions.

Some comments that spring to mind:

Most a/c NZ received were ex-US a/c. The Corsairs for example invariably were throw-aways from the USMC. Many had corroded wheels. The RNZAF spent plenty of time cannabalising the a/c graveyards to get parts.

The 99 confirmed and 14 probables the RNZAF shot down in the Pacific were all by P-40's, They include:

11 Vals
5 confirmed and 2 probable Hamps
1 Betty
1 Dave
1 Tony (probable)
1 unidentified
and the rest are Zeros.

RNZAF a/c were among those covering the Rendova landings (June 43).

The RNZAF operated from:

Tonga (Tongatapu)
Fiji (Nandi)
Espiritu Santo (Pallikulo)
Guadalcanal (Henderson Field, Kukum)
Russell Islands Group, Banika Is (Sunlight Field)
New Georgia (Munda, Ondonga, Segi Strip)
Green Island
Bougainville (Torokina)
Jacquinot Bay

Aircraft-wise the RNZAF used:

F4U-1A, and 1-D Corsairs
P-40E, K, M and N's
PV-1 & RB-34 Venturas
TBF-1C Avengers
Catalina PBY-5 and PB2B-1's

Frequently the RNZAF was moved in to the very places just vacated by US-Groups and took over the jobs that same day.
The RNZAF maintained a very high rate of servicibility, despite everything.

The RNZAF, following on from experiments by teh Aussies, were the first to pioneer the P-40 as a fighter-bomber in the Pacific.
The Avengers carried spraying apparatus full of diesel, and flew many missings over Japanese bases and areas, spraying gardens with the diesel and using machine-gun fire to set it off, to deplete Japanese food stocks.

The RNZAF spent much time supressing Japanese airstrips in the face of heavy enemy AA fire.

The Japanese figured out that the US fighters tended to forget their charges while escorting and would race after an enemy a/c in desperation to get a "kill". So the Japanese formulated a plan whereby they used one or two fighters to lure the US covering fighters away and then pounced on the undefended bombers. The RNZAF was held in very high regard by US Bomber crews, as they stayed with the bombers as close-escort and were frequently requested to be such BY THE BOMBER CREWS for that reason. In short - to the US bomber crews, the RNZAF pilots were more dependable than their own fighters!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

So, no, as I can see the question is being lobbed in there Droopsnoot, the RNZAF wasn't in flashy famous engagements, major battles and the like. But they did their bit and then some, with clapped out equipment, at times (especially the P-40s) fighting a numerically superior enemy who had better aircraft. I haven't got the actual ratio at hand but they shot down more enemy planes than lost to enemy a/c. If memory serves they lost more to flak damage than enemy fighters!!

The Catalina "dumbos" rescued plenty of downed pilots and others.

As for paintschemes, they charged frequently. Owning to the US tendency to shoot down ANYTHING that didn't have a star-and-bar, the RNZAF had to go through about 4 different roundels!! Starting of with similar to the RAF, the red disc got reduced unitl it wasa 1-inch dot, then eliminated altogether and replaced by a blue central disc. Then the "bars" were added. Plus the arrival of the Tony meant the RNZAF had to paint white lines on wings and fue****es, then make the tail white, on the P-40s to stop the US fighter pilots attacking them!!

I'll give some thought to this idea of yours Droopsnoot, and if I do it will be a wee while as I am ATM very busy. That lot should give you something to mull over anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

06-13-2004, 04:29 AM
Owl your wasteing your time we all know that us lowly colonials had bugger all to do with the war in the pacific.

To quote my grandfather, on meeting his first yank he was asked how long have you Aussies been fighting our war?

edit; And by the way I feel it's bit insulting to have to "justify" being included in PF

Ride It Like Ya Stole It

06-13-2004, 05:15 AM
Good point, pourshot, good point. Maybe we should make the US fans justify having yet another "USA-glorification" game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But it is sad that it seems there is no interest in a balanced sim. I thought the whole point of IL-2 becoming Forgotten Battles was to highlight "forgotten" battles", not rehash the same old ones again and again.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

06-13-2004, 08:00 AM
Yes, somewhere in the way, 'Forgotten Battles' have been converted into 'Forgotten Wallet'.

Many of us dreamt once it was paving the way to the definitive multi-front sim we all wanted: a game where you could choose any front from Manchuria and Spanish Civil War to Korea, taking part of action in scenarios that are usually ignored by sim game industry, such as those and Italian-Ethiopian war, the Chaco war in South America, the Mediterranean, France and Low Countries, VVS vs Japan early and late action, the Aleuthians, SE Asia, Norway, Greece and the Balkans...

Forgotten dreams, I'm afraid. We are even unlikely to have the Pacific theater integrated with the AEP ones in a single sim. We'll have just CFS2, only better. CFS2 v2.0? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

- Dux Corvan -
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

06-13-2004, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owl_NZ:
Good point, pourshot, good point. Maybe we should make the US fans justify having yet another "USA-glorification" game. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But it is sad that it seems there is no interest in a balanced sim. I thought the whole point of IL-2 becoming Forgotten Battles was to highlight "forgotten" battles", not rehash the same old ones again and again.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Owl, I was just trying to help. I have been in your position in the past and I made my suggestion because you are trying to present your ideas and getting no place by trying to shove them down the throat of a developer by continual harassment.

I have given you the benefit of my experience in SUCCESSFULLY convincing developers in the past to accept my ideas. I did not do it by harassing and alienating them.

If you choose to reject my advice I do not take it as a personal affront, for that is your choice.

I am however offended by your resentment of "US fans"as you expressed above.

"US"fans", including myself have had nothing to do with any decisions made by any developers to reject your ideas.

06-13-2004, 05:24 PM
Right, Droopsnoot, this isn't a bash on US fans so don't take it as such. I'm pointing out that between the larger population and the fact it is UBI's priorty market (it has been for FB & AEP anyway, and will be with PF), that in effect what the US fans want is going to very much affect the outcome of how "involved" the program will be with other countries involvement(s).

I have no problem with "US fans" getting what they want, but surely ignoring everyone else based on levels of contribution isn't valid either. In PF, for example, I am looking forward to the Corsair, Avenger and Dauntless, as they have a personal involvement with the RNZAF. I am looking forward to the Japanese a/c as they might finally be modelled accurately and be given a more representative involvement in the Pacific. In the past many sims have portrayed the Japanese planes as inadequate, underarmed, underarmoured, slow, unmanouverable lumps of s***. That Il'2 is the closest simmers can come to reality should at least provide a better reflection of their actual abilities.

Part of the reason for teh US comments you see are that many see how Russia vs Germany suddenly became Germany vs the US. Now it's the US vs Japan. But they feel their country is missing out (esp. the Italians and British for example). If AEP was sealed at this point Britain would be represented by all of 5 a/c, of which only one (Spit IX) was actually in service at the end of the war. By comparision, the US, USSR, and Germany have multiple a/c, almost all of which are late-war models. That isn't very representative is it? If you put the situation into reverse (to provide a comparison), the UK would have the Spitfire IX & XIV, the Tempest, the Typhoon, the Mosquito, Lancaster and Halifax, while the US would have the P-36, maybe a P-51B, a P-40 and the Buffalo. It is all about perception, and the perception this situation gives is that the US fans have got it sweet while others can't get a look in. Now, back to the issue at hand.

I am presuming your convincement of whatever topic it was was about adding a plane (IIRC I saw your name listed next to a plane dev - but I'm not a very frequent visitor). This situation is different in that, by accepting the offers of help with the RNZAF and RAF units/deployments, it IMPLIES that luthier intends to add them (otherwise he'd have declined the offer). This sets it apart from (for example) adding another plane which may or may not be pertinent to the geographic area covered in the program.

Additionally, harassment constitutes continued unsolicited personal attacks upon a person. This, by comparision, is attempting to contact a person who wants and has indicated such, help with a specific topic. They are quite different. ATM they are also mute points as apparently luthier doesn't come here anymore....

Now, if I wanted to "harass" luthier, I would be spamming the address he gave me day and night. Instead, I have made abundant efforts to raise contact with him via email, private topics, public threads, and other means. By the sounds of it I am not alone in making said attempts to reach him. The reason this thread exists is because if this program is coming out fall 2004, then the data/model cutoff is fast approaching. This is technically an add-on. There will be limited chance now or later to get additional sides/data/equipment added.

Consider that for even the US fans it took them two years to get all their favourites included. Now, the RAF, RNZAF, and many others already have the a/c they used either in or very close to being in. The implementation of them would therefore be comparatively hassle-free. But to do that they need data. That is what I am offering.

And that is why I would like some feedback from luthier. If he wants this stuff, say so, if he doesn't, then say so. I would (as would all contributers) prefer to know we're not wasting our time making stuff that will never see the light of day. It's no good going down a road and making something/creating something/researching something, only to find that it is not wanted.

06-13-2004, 10:49 PM
Right, now that I have the time to read this stuff (rather than half-heartedly look while preping for a test http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

If you are trying to help Droopsnoot, that's fair enough, and thanks for trying to do so. The way your second-most recent post (the one suggesting the concept should be sold to the audience one) just came across as "justify why it should be in OUR (meaining the US's) game", that's all, and the bit with the Haruna really lead me to believe it was a "if your side didn't do anything special they shouldn't be in" type-thread response. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

As for the bean-counters, their ideal scenarion differs from country to country. In the US I'm sure UBI's dept. wants this to be a shoot-'em-down 30 a mission program, with no Japanese plane able to out-do any US plane at anything. By the same token, in Japan they might well want to see the reverse.

Will the RNZAF/RAF/RAAF etc et al being in make a difference. Probably not to anyone than from those countries. But, remember, most people from whereever (again, as I'm trying to make sure I'm relating it best for you Droopsnoot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif), would 90% of potential US purchasers of say Il-2 (the original) have looked at it, seen it was essentially Russia vs Germany and gone "oh, where's the _______ &lt;- insert favourite US plane there, yadda yadda yadda.

It's the same reason now why the Italians must be cheesed that they have dipped out once more. What have they got to show for it in AEP? Courtesy of Xanty and Maddox/1C they have a flyable outdated biplane, a flyable outdated monoplane, and one half-way decent but underarmed plane that has been in since IL-2 was released, but is still not flyable!! (YET http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) They have some good ones on the horizon, but if the cut-off comes too soon they miss out. Ditto the British.

As for NZ I think you'll find we can appreciate our place in all this. We know that there are insufficent numbers to whine ourselves into getting what we want (unlike others). We didn't build our own, we made do with what was lent to us. NZ fought in nearly every theatre of WW2, and just like Australia, South Africa, Slovakia, Hungary, India, Canada et al should not have to justify to some bean-counting a-hole why it should be in. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

If calling IL-2 "Forgotten Battles" wasn't done so to highlight "forgotten battles", then what the hell WAS it done for?

I see in your post there is this:

Any crucial battles that would swing the balance in a dynamic campaign if it didn't go according to History?

Well, let's look at this one. If Australia, NZ, Britain, China etc weren't fighting in the Pacific in WW2, they'd still be fighting this war today. They tied down bases, garrisons, units, ships, a/c, tanks and kept them down, while the US (which was after all the largest force on the Allied side in the Pacific and the only one equiped for "island hopping") was freed up to go after Japan without the other distractions. In that sense, YES, NZ (and the others), did play a crucial part in the war. They helped win it!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

06-14-2004, 02:14 AM
I don't know if it means anything to you, but MY "Inside Sources" actually exist, and they don't spread bull**** about game cancellations or other assorted doom and gloom. So here's the word...

The last time anybody got in real, honest-to-god, non-electronic contact with Luthier, just before the weekend, his word was reportedly that all of our work (referring to people who are making stuff to go into the game) will make it.

That doesn't change the fact that nobody, dev team or no, has had any meaningful contact with The Man in six weeks. BUT... I don't think he's ignoring anybody on purpose or rejecting things that are offered. Nor will he. Oleg has indicated that there's some sort of crunch/Maximum Effort underway right now and he might reappear towards the end of the month. I'm thinking that he's under heavy pressure to get another build of the game ready for display at the UK flight sim show.

Like with Il-2, FB, and AEP, there will be patches after the game's initial release... So if something is missing on the CD, it can probably be added later.

All things considered, what I would do, rather than bumping every day, is just set your material aside until he shows up again, and try and get in touch with him after he comes back from the dead.

06-14-2004, 03:50 AM
Thanks for that Penguin_PFF, that does go some way to improving things a bit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The only concern I have is re the last paragraph. When he did his last attempt at Lazarus (around 20th May IIRC) I tired everything to contact him, and if he is here once every six weeks (given I'm on the other side of the world BTW), it makes it very difficult to make the contact at a time when he's talkative. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

But if he's saying everyone's contributions are going to get in, that helps (but it still doesn't help as many of us seem to be requiring feedback on one thing or another http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif). Oh, and Penguin_PFF can you please clarify this : does your point mean modellers only OR everyone (ie modellers, researchers etc)??

Still, at least it explains the incommunicado status. "Might appear at the end of the month". Don't suppose there's much that can be done to get his feedback until he's ready to. Oh well.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

06-14-2004, 11:43 AM
He was referring specifically to modelers, as far as I know, but I think when he has time he'll probably want to see whatever it is you've got.

The guy really does need an assistant. Or a clone. Or two clones... Maybe three.

Contact with him is notoriously difficult. Is your material all electronic in nature?

06-14-2004, 04:46 PM
The source-material is print-based, but logistically (note some of the source material) is not for printing/handing out to others (like personal log-books etc), I select/comb for relevant details by cross-referencing and/or gernericising the personal mission notes (to remove actual referencing) then I'd send those details to him electronically (email). (That's for campaigns advice - I could do the squadron info reasonably quickly - just not for the next week or so - real-life(TM) is having its say ATM. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

If that "everyone will get in" stuff is for modellers, that's a bit worrying from my POV, because the bulk of what's being sent to him from me is for the benefit of making campaigns & squadrons for the RAF & RNZAF. I have no idea how long it takes them to make a campaign, but one would presume they would have to start soon for it to make it into a Fall 2004 release (which I presume is November/December - so presumably the cutoff would be Sept/Oct) for this sort of info. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Hence the push to get luthier's feedback/clarification.

Agree with the assistant comment. Given I get the impression Gibbage is on very good terms maybe it would be wise to appoint Gibbage to that sort of role. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

06-14-2004, 06:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owl_NZ:
Agree with the assistant comment. Given I get the impression Gibbage is on very good terms maybe it would be wise to appoint Gibbage to that sort of role. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Just... No.

Very few people are actually close enough to render real assistance to Luthier, as far as I know... Starshoy, maybe Burnin. Gibbage works to keep all the newbie modelers under some sort of direction. Admin duties at Netwings, mailing questions to Oleg, that sort of thing, all self-appointed. Generally speaking, there's a mile-wide gulf between Luthier and everybody else when it comes to the real meat of what's going on. Which also means I'm ignorant of most of the details, and probably wrong...

What I was going to suggest was that if your material is electronic, I could just put it in a folder on the project FTP so Luthier at least has copies accessible. Unfortunately I've been locked out of the FTP since there were some hacker problems a few weeks ago. The login/pass info was changed and I haven't gotten the new ones. When I can get back in, though, I'd be happy to relay it onto the FTP for you. I've just gotten a Gmail account so I might as well make use of the space. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-14-2004, 08:44 PM
Do you have an official position Penquin? What's am FTP ?

06-14-2004, 09:05 PM
Penguin aka Majesty5 is a modeler / texturer on the team.

'FTP' stands for File Transfer Protocol. 'FTP' is frequently used, as a noun, to refer to a file storage system. The PF team has a passworded FTP storage system to keep our work and files on.

06-14-2004, 09:18 PM

I'm modeling an aircraft right now for PF. I also made the Ar 196A-3 for Forgotten Battles, and I had made good headway on a J2M3 Raiden before I moved over to my PF aircraft. And I'm not going to list all the stuff I started and then couldn't finish for various reasons... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

PlaneEater explained the FTP well... It's like a library server where Luthier keeps stuff related to the project (reference materials, files to be checked, etc.)

[This message was edited by Penguin_PFF on Mon June 14 2004 at 11:15 PM.]

06-14-2004, 10:31 PM
Yeah, that might be useful that idea Penguin. Thanks. If luthier wants it so, I'll do that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Beats emailing the stuff somewhere it may never arrive. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I'd better brush on my FTP though, god I'm rusty at that.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif I hope you can model a how-to-guide for accessing it 'cos I'll need it I think. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

06-15-2004, 12:13 AM
No, I won't be giving you access, I'm saying that you can mail the stuff to me (I won't abuse the info, I promise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and I'll put it up on the FTP for you.

When I can get back into it, that is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

It's safe to assume that mails might not get through to him (he's got people deliberately spamming him, as well as folks asking questions). So it's better just to get it as close to in his hands as possible. I'll do that for you as soon as I'm able.

06-15-2004, 03:37 AM
Thanx, Plane eater and Penguin for the explanations. As yet I know very little about how this team is organized.

I wish I could do what you guys do, but I'm not that talented at graphics,

Though I was listed four places in the credits for B17II, graphics wasn't one of them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But my track record shows that I know how to present material to Project Managers ...and bugging them about no feedback isn't the best way.

It's his ears if the project misses its deadlines, so eventually the feedback will arrive if he intends to use the stuff that's been contributed.

No sense getting out of joint if his priorities don't match yours, whether you have a contract or whether you are an unpaid volunteer with a pet project, or an axe to grind,

Reminding him once is OK and protects you if you need protection...more than once is insulting.

Been there, done that and got the T-shirt to prove it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-15-2004, 05:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Reminding him once is OK and protects you if you need protection...more than once is insulting.

Been there, done that and got the T-shirt to prove it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Owl_NZ: contact me now, address is daniels369 at hotmail com. I just got access to the FTP again, and I'll tell you where to send the stuff.

06-15-2004, 05:21 AM
Well, we've established he's the Project Leader, not the Project Manager, so that's that theory out the window Droopsnoot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Thing is, do you really believe that if/when luthier comes back to read this forum he is going to scroll through however many hundreds of threads (22 pages worth ATM) and read every single post? Even if he searches by finding all examples of the word "luthier" he's going to be sitting here for a VERY long time. He'd have to search for specific keywords (ie like "RNZAF" - and want to search for them BTW).

It's long been known that people don't read past the first page. Why? Simple. They get engrossed in two or three things on that first page, and by the time they've read/replied to them, their available/self-allocated time is up. It's "make your thread title as attractive as possible and keep it on Page One" that gets threads read, not post once and hope. That's why a certain topic about FW cockpits wound up 48 pages long.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

As for axe to grind, ah ah, not me. All I want to do is make sure he knows it exists and is waiting for him. If he isn't getting those emails of stuff I sent him, then I've no way of knowing. And if he isn't getting them, then he'll just sit there thinking "gee, I wonder if that guy who said he was getting the RNZAF & RAF stuff ever did anything about it?". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There isn't much worse than sitting there waiting for an answer/response, never getting one, then finding out latter it was a miscommunication that caused it to go astray. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

06-15-2004, 05:35 AM
Hey Penguin, I tried daniels369@hotmail.com no go says my ISP.

Try sending my way:


Please include your guide to logging into it mate. Make sure it's in "FTP Accessfing for Dummies" format please. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


06-15-2004, 07:09 AM
Owl_NZ said:

"Well, we've established he's the Project Leader, not the Project Manager, so that's that theory out the window Droopsnoot."
You are rationalizing by picking flyspecks out of the pepper... or being sarcastic.

Sorry I tried to help you. I won't again.
Then Owl said:
"Thing is, do you really believe that if/when luthier comes back to read this forum he is going to scroll through however many hundreds of threads (22 pages worth ATM) and read every single post?"
I would guess that he could very well have seen several of them when he was too busy to reply. There is nothing pressing about replying to your submission, except your own impatience.

It is likely that he has many deadlines to meet, and several matters of higher priority.

It is quite possible that many people responded to his request for information... myself included.

He may have many to wade through.And since it is research data there is nothing demanding his immediate attention.

Get in line! He'll respond to us all in time, In accordance with HIS priorities , not ours.

For this is his Profession not his hobby.

06-15-2004, 07:24 PM

(I'm tempted to say "You've got mail")

Message sent.

06-15-2004, 08:38 PM
Yeah, sorry mate I'm a bit slow today - been in exams this morning.

I've got your email. I'll find the emails I sent luthier, sift and sort that lot and send you something tidy and presentable hopefully by weeks end (because I can't be sure when I'm in or not ATM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ).


Droopsnoot, your help is appreciated. I was being sarcastic on the project roles bit (that's why the tongue face). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm not being impatient. It's being out-of-the-loop, specifically knowing the final cutoff/when he wants this/what he wants that's the annoying bit, and in my experience if you don't (as you Yanks so quaintly put it, "haul ***"), you find you've missed a cutoff date, which ain't good. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif If I wasn't doing anything towards PF I wouldn't give a monkeys nuts whether luthier was here or not, because it wouldn't matter. But I am, so it does (sort of). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

06-17-2004, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Owl_NZ:
Yeah, sorry mate I'm a bit slow today - been in exams this morning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been there. About a month ago, as a matter of fact. Take your time, whenever your ready, just fire it off to the address I gave you... I set up a folder called something like "RAF_RNZAF_SquadInfo" on the FTP and the zip you sent me is in there.

06-22-2004, 11:35 PM
So you thought I'd forgotten about this thread eh? You thought wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Right, maybe if luthier's reading this it'll interest him.

Current status of the RNZAF data for PF is this:

There are no Operational Orders of Battle for the RNZAF. They NEVER MADE any. Apparently the RNZAF is the only WW2 country with an airforce to do (or not do as the case may be) this.

However I am making these manually for luthier, by sifting through LOTS of dates and data and interpretting them. I hope to see the squadron operations books shortly to verify many of the dates, and ATM the Fighter Squadrons are in some semblence of an order. I presume it is Starshoy who is making the campaigns for PF, so this might interest him as well. I can tell you this isn't a search-google-and-get-an-answer job either. This is really long painstaking work because NZ records are that f***ing poor. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

I have to ask (answer can be given privately) if there are to be any flyable Hudsons, Dakotas and Venturas). So far I see the Dauntless is flyable, the Catalina probably will be (go Gibbage!!), and I presume the Avenger is too, but I have seen or heard nothing about those a/c. They constituted NZ's Pacific bomber and transport force (along with Lodestars), so their in-but-AI/in-and-flyable/not-in status would be appreciated as I'd really rather not waste a buttload of time on something that will never appear. If their status is confidential, I am damn good at keeping secrets so please let me know and tell me not to say anything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I will try to inform the progress of the RNZAF data on some form of regular basis, so stay tuned. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif All going well you should (assuming luthier &/or Starshoy puts it in) get some pretty accurate campaigns for the RNZAF given the data being collected for this.


06-24-2004, 03:16 PM
I know this thread is meant for the developers but thanks for your work Owl. I know nothing of NZ's involvement in the war but I am very interested in learning.


06-24-2004, 05:22 PM
SKULLS Virga, the 15 second version follows: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The RNZAF came out of what was the New Zealand Permanent Air Force formed in the 30's. When WW2 started NZ had biplanes like Baffins, Wapitis etc.

We were just getting a squadron of Wellington bombers, but with the war on we donated/left/allocated them to the RAF (for 75 Sqdn). We also supplied aircrew and had 6 RAF squadrons (485-490).

75 flew Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters. (Bombers - was the first Commonwealth Bomber Command squadron http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).
485 flew Spitfires. (fighters)
486 flew Typhoons. (fighter-bombers)
487 flew Venturas then Mosquitos. (bombers)
488 flew first off in Singapore with Buffaloes, then was reformed in UK with Beaufighters then got Mosquitos. (Nightfighters)
489 flew Hampdens and Beaufighter MkX (anti-shipping).
490 flew Catalinas and Sunderlands.

All those squadrons in the UK except 488 early (as noted above) and 490 (which operated patrols from Sierra Leone over Central Atlantic).

In the Pacific, RNZAF was practically non-existant as a fighting force owing to all aircrew and a/c efforts being directed to support UK. But when Japan entered the war NZ started arming with US lend-lease a/c from RAF allocations, then later from US forces instead.

Bombers in the Pacific included Hudsons & Venturas (hence question in previous post), we got one squadron of a/c worth of SBD and TBF a/c, about 290 P-40s, and 424 Corsairs. Also there were Catalinas, Dakotas and Lodestars. For training there were Ansons, Tiger Moths and Harvards.

All up there were:
13 fighter squadrons
2 TBF squadrons (dive & glide-bombing)
1 SBD squadron
2 Flying boat squadrons (one with Cats, the other with Singapores).
6 bomber squadrons
2 NZ-based reconnaissance squadrons (flying Vincents & Vildebeestes!!)
2 transport squadrons.

Bear in mind that those figures are aircrew, not necessarilty amount of a/c as they were rotated so (for example) one sqdn would be using the a/c at the front, another would be working up at say Espiritu Santo, another would be home on leave, and a fourth would be working up preparing to go to the Islands. For the fighters IIRC there were after a while four frontline sqdns, three or four working up, and the rest on leave or training. A tour was about 3 months for the pilots, groundcrew spent a lot longer than that up there. Planes were allocated to Servicing Units, not to the squadrons (following the US principal), so in the course of a deployment an SU might see four different squadrons using their a/c.

RNZAF operated out of:
Tongatabu, Tonga
Nandi, Fiji
Pallikulo & Luganville Field, Espiritu Santo
Kukum and Henderson Field, Guadalcanal
Piva & Torokina, Bougainville
Russell Islands
Munda and Ondonga, New Georgia
Nissan Island, Green Islands
Emirau, Saint Matthias Group
Los Negros, Admiralty Islands
Jacquinot Bay, New Britain

And spent it's time escorting bombers, CAP's, attacking airfields, barges, escorting shipping, attack troops, A/A positions, rescuing pilots, destroying bridges, conducting sweeps, covering landings, hell they did it all at some point or another. Mostly the targets were around Rabaul and Bougainville, making sure the garrisons couldn't fight back. In Rabaul's case, most losses were to flak (as Rabaul had the highest concentration of flak in the entire Pacific theatre!!) Some units were about to move to Borneo but the end of the war came while they were stationed at Los Negros & Jacquinot Bay so they never got that far.

After the war the RNZAF did send a squadron to Japan as part of the Commonwealth Occupying forces.

OK, that's a little longer than 15 secs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif But that's an overview for you. Anywhere the war went, the Kiwi's were there on the sea, land or in the air (except Russia and I wouldn't be surprised if they were some Kiwis there too. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

Now if luthier will include it....

06-30-2004, 09:40 PM
Right, this weeks news.

There is a reasonably accurate outline formed for the RNZAF deployments, including when, where and with what a/c types. Unfortunately, RNZAF recording keeping is appallingly bad, so it isn't quick going (by comparison with otehr countries like UK/US).

In the next couple of weeks I may or may not get the chance to get more confirmation on dates etc, but for the moment there should be enough to make a campaign.

However, I have heard nothing from luthier or any other person connected with PF (like Ian Boys, Burnin etc etc), so I am really beginning to wonder if they will bother to add the RNZAF. A yay or nay would help, as ATM I might well be wasting my holidays doing a lot of work only to be told to "get stuffed" in Russian.

If anyone wants to wave this thread in the general direction of people like Ian Boys (or Starshoy if he's making the campaigns) it'll be appreciated. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif If I find all this is for naught I will be one very unhappy camper.