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p-11.cAce
01-25-2006, 06:01 AM
Have you ever watched a full motion level D simulator in use? If you watch it from the outside you soon realize that there sure is not much motion going on! Engineers realized long ago that a realistic sense of flight was NOT created by moving the sim in the actual way the onscreen a/c moved but in the way that the pilot would perceive the plane to move. I was fortunate enough to recently watch a good friend of mine go through a level D sim session from an external monitor and compare the sim movements to what was onscreen. For example - when he applied power at the end of the runway the onscreen view stayed flat but the sim slowly tipped "nose up" effectivly making those inside "feel" acceleration as they are pressed into their seats. As the rate of acceleration slowed the sim slowly nosed lower then the sim and the view moved nose up as he pulled to rotate and lift off the runway. Once airborn the view continued to pitch up but as the rate slowed the sim nosed lower - i.e. the onscreen pitch was increasing MUCH more than the platform pitchup. Turns were much the same - the platform movments were much less than those onscreen. To those inside however the sensation is perfectly real.
I think desktop sims are much the same - the goal should be creating a product which creates a perfect impression of flight. I've heard the arguments supporting MSFS9 FM's that aerodynamic engineers created perfect data tables that match all aspects of an airplanes FM and perhaps they did - but onscreen the impression of flying is just not there. I have always felt that the IL2 FM's (in all the various patches I've flown since 2003) have delivered a better sensation of flight if not the same accuracy of operation. The same goes for the graphics - up close I think MSFS graphics look better, from a few hundred feet on up I think IL2 is far better. MSFS attempts to recreate photo-realistic scenery but in rl we are not flying over photographs (or photographs laid over wire frames) we are flying over a textured 3d surface. I'd rather the ground look great from a few thousand feet up even if it looks like modern art close up. The point is that a great sim experience does not come from programming which reproduces an exact FM but programming which creates an exact flight experience - a level D sim feels real not because it matches the exact pitch/yaw/bank angles of flight but because it creates the perception of exact pitch/yaw/bank angles.

p-11.cAce
01-25-2006, 06:01 AM
Have you ever watched a full motion level D simulator in use? If you watch it from the outside you soon realize that there sure is not much motion going on! Engineers realized long ago that a realistic sense of flight was NOT created by moving the sim in the actual way the onscreen a/c moved but in the way that the pilot would perceive the plane to move. I was fortunate enough to recently watch a good friend of mine go through a level D sim session from an external monitor and compare the sim movements to what was onscreen. For example - when he applied power at the end of the runway the onscreen view stayed flat but the sim slowly tipped "nose up" effectivly making those inside "feel" acceleration as they are pressed into their seats. As the rate of acceleration slowed the sim slowly nosed lower then the sim and the view moved nose up as he pulled to rotate and lift off the runway. Once airborn the view continued to pitch up but as the rate slowed the sim nosed lower - i.e. the onscreen pitch was increasing MUCH more than the platform pitchup. Turns were much the same - the platform movments were much less than those onscreen. To those inside however the sensation is perfectly real.
I think desktop sims are much the same - the goal should be creating a product which creates a perfect impression of flight. I've heard the arguments supporting MSFS9 FM's that aerodynamic engineers created perfect data tables that match all aspects of an airplanes FM and perhaps they did - but onscreen the impression of flying is just not there. I have always felt that the IL2 FM's (in all the various patches I've flown since 2003) have delivered a better sensation of flight if not the same accuracy of operation. The same goes for the graphics - up close I think MSFS graphics look better, from a few hundred feet on up I think IL2 is far better. MSFS attempts to recreate photo-realistic scenery but in rl we are not flying over photographs (or photographs laid over wire frames) we are flying over a textured 3d surface. I'd rather the ground look great from a few thousand feet up even if it looks like modern art close up. The point is that a great sim experience does not come from programming which reproduces an exact FM but programming which creates an exact flight experience - a level D sim feels real not because it matches the exact pitch/yaw/bank angles of flight but because it creates the perception of exact pitch/yaw/bank angles.

russ.nl
01-25-2006, 11:47 AM
I don't know what a level D sim is but I know from my uncle, who works at Fokker, that in order to trick the mind that you are really flying your seat only has to move 9 degrees. If I remember correctly. And in every direction ofcourse.
So all you need is a rocking chair and IL-2.

MLudner
01-25-2006, 12:13 PM
You would also want to mount the rocking chair on a universal joint with a stabilized drink holder so that your whatever will not spill as the chair swings this way and that.

Barf bags would also be recommended for those prone to air or motion sickness.

MLudner
01-25-2006, 12:14 PM
Please define "level D sim".

Saunders1953
01-25-2006, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please define "level D sim". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's either one up from Level C sim or one down from Level E sim. I forget which.

rnzoli
01-25-2006, 12:19 PM
Good idea, BUT tell me how would you simulate the 15G, which breaks the wings on P51? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

9 degrees may be enough for civilian sims (max. banking 30 degrees etc.), but it could fall short for combat sims.

However, given that so few people on these forums actually flew ww2 warbirds in combat, any non-visual aid that would enhance our motion detection would increase its realism and immersion.

MLudner
01-25-2006, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saunders1953:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please define "level D sim". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's either one up from Level C sim or one down from Level E sim. I forget which. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please define Level C sim or Level E sim.

Thank you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

rnzoli
01-25-2006, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Please define "level D sim". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
LEVEL D

Simulator Requirements
1. Characteristic buffet motions that result from operation of the airplane (for example, high-speed buffet, extended landing gear, flaps, nose-wheel scuffing, stall) which can be sensed at the flight deck. The simulator must be programed and instrumented in such a manner that the characteristic buffet modes can be measured and compared to airplane data. Airplane data are also required to define flight deck motions when the airplane is subjected to atmospheric disturbances such as rough air and cobblestone turbulence. General purpose disturbance models that approximate demonstrable flight test data are acceptable.

2. Aerodynamic modeling for aircraft for which an original type certificate is issued after June 1, 1980, including low-altitude, level-flight ground effect, mach effect at high altitude, effects of airframe icing, normal and reverse dynamic thrust effect on control surfaces, aero-elastic representations, and representations of nonlinearities due to side slip based on airplane flight test data provided by the manufacturer.

3. Realistic amplitude and frequency of cockpit noises and sounds, including precipitation static and engine and airframe sounds. The sounds shall be coordinated with the weather representations required in visual requirement No. 3.

4. Self-testing for simulator hardware and programing to determine compliance with Level B, C, and D simulator requirements.

5. Diagnostic analysis printout of simulator malfunctions sufficient to determine MEL compliance. These printouts shall be retained by the operator between recurring FAA simulator evaluations as part of the daily discrepancy log required under Ôž121.407(a)(5).


Visual Requirements
1. Daylight, dusk, and night visual scenes with sufficient scene content to recognize a specific airport, the terrain, and major landmarks around that airport and to successfully accomplish a visual landing. The daylight visual scene must be part of a total daylight cockpit environment which at least represents the amount of light in the cockpit on an overcast day. For the purpose of this rule, daylight visual system is defined as a visual system capable of producing, as a minimum, full color presentations, scene content comparable in detail to that produced by 4,000 edges or 1,000 surfaces for daylight and 4,000 light points for night and dusk scenes, 6-foot lamberts of light at the pilot's eye (highlight brightness), 3-arc minutes resolution for the field of view at the pilot's eye, and a display which is free of apparent quantization and other distracting visual effects while the simulator is in motion. The simulation of cockpit ambient lighting shall be dynamically consistent with the visual scene displayed. For daylight scenes, such ambient lighting shall neither "washout" the displayed visual scene nor fall below 5-foot lamberts of light as reflected from an approach plate at knee height at the pilot's station and/or 2-foot lamberts of light as reflected from the pilot's face.

2. Visual scenes portraying representative physical relationships which are known to cause landing illusions in some pilots, including short runway, landing over water, runway gradient, visual topographic features, and rising terrain.

3. Special weather representations which include the sound, visual, and motion effects of entering light, medium, and heavy precipitation near a thunderstorm on takeoff, approach, and landings at and below an altitude of 2,000 feet HAA and within a radius of 10 miles from the airport.

4. Level C visual requirements in daylight as well as dusk and night representations.

5. Wet and, if appropriate for the operator, snow-covered runway representations, including runway lighting effects.

6. Realistic color and directionality of airport lighting.

7. Weather radar presentations in aircraft where radar information is presented on the pilot's navigation instruments. (Secs. 313, 601, 603, 604, Federal Aviation Act of 1958, as amended (49 U.S.C. 1354, 1421, 1423, 1424); sec. 6(c), Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655(c)))



Happy now? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rnzoli
01-25-2006, 12:25 PM
Source: http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-H-APPX.shtml

Including Level C as well. Not level E, since it doesn't exits. Saunders, you is wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But nice try!

Lucius_Esox
01-25-2006, 12:30 PM
That's cool I want one,, two even http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But does a level B or A do it better, I know it's probably me but is this level the best you can get ?

I don't care btw I still want one, or two..

MLudner
01-25-2006, 12:31 PM
Thank you. Saunders was joking around, I believe.

Lucius_Esox
01-25-2006, 12:33 PM
Ahh, you we were posting at the same time so I missed your link..


I want three now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
01-25-2006, 12:47 PM
Can we have AI pilots programmed to lose vision at night first? Oh, and AI gunners too!! Can't leave them out.

Level A sim -- Air war simulation first, and last http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p-11.cAce
01-25-2006, 06:04 PM
I guess I was thinking about some of the threads where person A is pissed because they read somewhere that p-11.c top speed was 212.3587 knots and in game it is 211.458 knots and by God Oleg must correct this in the next patch or its over; while person B calls person A a ******* and that everyone knows the p-11.c top speed was 210.12345 knots and anyone who says otherwise is a ******. I could not care less about the accuracy of the numbers (within reason) what I want is a desktop sim that in some way tricks me into feeling that sensation of flight - and I doubt that is best achieved by trying to directly translate rl performance data into a desktop sim FM. By the way Level D sims are qualified for all levels of flight training - if you can do it in the sim the FAA says you can do it in RL. This is great for the airlines as RL flying costs way more than sim time!

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2006, 06:30 PM
I find this hard to make an informed comment on this because I have never flown a plane in real life (& probably never will)

However the things that make this sim "realistic" to me is the redout/blackout, plane vibration ect. I fly with the stall/spin & gyroscopic effects off so that part of the realism factor doesnt concern me. (The adjustable realism level is one reason that makes this sim in a league of its own) I dont have the knowledge on what we could do to make this sim more realistic bar you have manned vehicles & guns & troop movement on the ground (but this would murder frame rates)

Because I fly offline I would like to see accurate plane date of service entry to combat. (we can allready alter this in DGEN) I also would like to see the incorrect national marking bug in DGEN repaired as well as having the ability to assign squadrons that are represented in the campaigns their correct colour scheme, (BOE stock out of the box allready does this)

These things make sims more realistic to me.

TheGozr
01-25-2006, 07:23 PM
The first thing you do while you fly in RL is too look at the ground and and make sure you have always a safe area to land safely and to look at ground marks.. so the ground details is a most wanted. the modern art on teh ground is out of question.

cawimmer430
01-26-2006, 07:55 AM
Your computer should also be equipped with a "mini-Flamethrower" to simulate cockpit / engine fires. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Like this---&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Saunders1953
01-26-2006, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thank you. Saunders was joking around, I believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you are correct, sir!

rnzoli
01-26-2006, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saunders1953:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thank you. Saunders was joking around, I believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe you are correct, sir! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too...! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Manuel29
01-26-2006, 11:07 AM
Sometimes I don't know my actual speed (in "no speed bar" servers): I would like to listen the blowing of the wind as in other sims.