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general_kalle
11-26-2005, 03:52 PM
as we aproch(sorry about my spelling) christmas.
what did the subs do did they just fight on or returned to port or simply stop the engines and hold christmas peace? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Carotio
11-26-2005, 04:26 PM
Can only guess, but in "Das Boot" a christmas tree was brought onboard in Vigo, so they must have planed to celebrate christmas on the trip!

Whether they dived a made a party a the sea floor, I don't know, but they surely did something, maybe just leaving the sonar guy at duty, lisning for contacts once in a while!

Anyway, let me use this opportunity to wish all in this forum a merry christmas and a happy New Year!

macker33
12-04-2005, 06:23 AM
Probably generally had more of a stand to,a few beers and maybe a christmas dinner,duties would still have to be carried out,sing songs etc.

As for christmas truces no way,the only times that i can think of truces in WWII were the two hour kind to collect the wounded off the no mans land.

Merry christmas to you too.

Schiffmorder
12-04-2005, 02:27 PM
there was a very nice Christmas truce in 1914 along many parts of the front, in some places it went so far as organized soccer matches. Of course this drove the brass berserk, and all kinds of rules came down to ensure any sort of humanity was driven away come the next year.
I read recently that the last survivor of this truce just passed.

Kaleun1961
12-04-2005, 02:39 PM
John McDermott, the Scots-Canadian singer did a really nice song about this a few years ago, called "Christmas in the Trenches." You may hear it about this time of year as Christmas approaches, on CBC Radio, for those of you who can tune it in. It's a beautiful, yet strange song. You can't help but think, "If they can stop fighting on this day of the year, why can't they stop fighting on all the other days of the year?"

TooFastForLove.
12-04-2005, 03:10 PM
I may be wrong but wasn't there a christmas truce during the battle of the bulge in 1944?

Praetorian_Elite
12-04-2005, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by TooFastForLove.:
I may be wrong but wasn't there a christmas truce during the battle of the bulge in 1944?

I dont think so. The only time I ever heard of a Christmas truce was during WWI where they had some soccer match going. Some guys took the time to wander over to the enemies trench and check their defenses out.

The_Silent_O
12-05-2005, 06:36 AM
at least in '39, they took tonnage!!! (well at least by mines)

from u boat net below:
//

Below are the results from your search: (25 December, 1939)

Date U-boat Commander Name of ship Tons Nat. Convoy

25 Dec, 1939 U-22 Karl-Heinrich Jenisch HMS Loch Doon [Mine] 534 br
25 Dec, 1939 U-33 Hans-Wilhelm von Dresky Stanholme [Mine] 2.473 br

3.007
2 ships sunk (3.007 tons).
[Mine] indicates the vessel was hit by a mine laid by said U-boat.
//

I couldn't find any other ships sunk by U-boat for any of the other years for 25 Dec...I don't know if this is a coincidence or on purpose.

As for 24 DEC:
//
Date U-boat Commander Name of ship Tons Nat. Convoy

24 Dec, 1940 U-65 Hans-Gerrit von Stockhausen British Premier 5.872 br SL-60

5.872
1 ship sunk (5.872 tons).
Legend
We have a picture of this vessel.

24 Dec, 1941 U-568 Joachim Preuss HMS Salvia (K 97) 925 br TA-5

925
1 ship sunk (925 tons).

24 Dec, 1943 U-515 Werner Henke HMS Dumana 8.427 br
24 Dec, 1943 U-415 Kurt Neide HMS Hurricane (H 06) 1.340 br OS-62
24 Dec, 1943 U-275 Helmut Bork USS Leary (DD 158) 1.090 am

10.857
3 ships sunk (10.857 tons).
Legend
We have a picture of this vessel.


24 Dec, 1944 U-806 Klaus Hornbostel HMCS Clayoquot (J 174) 672 ca XB-139
24 Dec, 1944 U-486 Gerhard Meyer Leopoldville 11.509 be WEP-3
24 Dec, 1944 U-637 Wolfgang Riekeberg MO-594 56 sj
24 Dec, 1944 U-862 Heinrich Timm Robert J. Walker 7.180 am

19.417
4 ships sunk (19.417 tons).
Legend
We have a picture of this vessel.

//

MANY! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif



I've heard that the WWI trench truce is a little exagerated:

The reality of the Christmas Truce, however, is a slightly less romantic and a more down to earth story. It was an organic affair that in some spots hardly registered a mention and in others left a profound impact upon those who took part.

Many accounts were rushed, confused or contradictory. Others, written long after the event, are weighed down by hindsight. These difficulties aside, the true story is still striking precisely because of its rag-tagged nature: it is more 'human' and therefore all the more potent.


more here: http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

I highly doubt there was any truce during WWII on the east or west front. The Ardennes Offensive was brutal for both sides by it's ferocity. But here are some paratroopers who know how to decorate a tree:
http://www.scls.lib.wi.us/mcmillan/history/82nd/images/82_28.GIF

Ratek
12-05-2005, 03:38 PM
Well, the 1914 cristmas truce must have had more of an impact than that author want's to admit since both sides made more than just sure that it wouldn't happen in 1915.

Criosphinx
12-05-2005, 04:14 PM
I read about the Christmas Truce some time ago, after heard the song "All together now" from the Farm I searched and found this

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/truce.asp

general_kalle
12-06-2005, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by TooFastForLove.:
I may be wrong but wasn't there a christmas truce during the battle of the bulge in 1944?

the germans granted the amrecian 101. airborne a cristmas gift in the battle of the bulge 1944
A bombardment and a counterattack. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

paulhager
12-06-2005, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
John McDermott, the Scots-Canadian singer did a really nice song about this a few years ago, called "Christmas in the Trenches." You may hear it about this time of year as Christmas approaches, on CBC Radio, for those of you who can tune it in. It's a beautiful, yet strange song. You can't help but think, "If they can stop fighting on this day of the year, why can't they stop fighting on all the other days of the year?"

Not to put too fine a point on it, the vast majority of people on Earth don't celebrate Christmas. Moreover, Christians have slaughtered each other with relish almost from the beginning of the religion, usually over seemingly insignificant matters of dogma. One such slaughter of "heretics" produced this classic quote: "Kill them all, let God sort them out."

It's also worth pointing out that WW I was VERY different from WW II. There really weren't any "bad guys" in WW I. The great powers stumbled into conflict. In contrast, there were plenty of bad guys in WW II. The first day of Chanukah falls on 25 December this year. Question: what did WW II German subs do to celebrate Chanukah?

There are actually very good game theoretical reasons for something like the Christmas truce happening. It started out at as a non-cooperative game - think Nash Equilibrium. There was a huge benefit for the combatants if they could arrive at a tacit agreement not to shoot at each other. The fact of a common day of celebration was a catalyst, nothing more. Maybe in the future, they'll be a truce that comes about because the combatants are all watching the same TV show.

As we know, the WW I generals and politicians were horrified by the Christmas truce. They made certain that those kind of tacit agreements couldn't occur in the future by shifting men around in the trenches so they'd wouldn't be facing the same men on the other side, while throwing in the occasional artillery barrage as an additional discouragement.

Kaleun1961
12-06-2005, 08:48 AM
I think that humans would slaughter each other in vast numbers even if there were no religions on earth. It is not so much that religion causes war, as that people will cling to any dogma and defend it against any and all comers, a good example being communism.

Of the many religions I have studied, I'm of the opinion it is not so much the religion itself that is to blame, it is the insistance of its adherents to force others to think the same as they do and not allow any dissension therefrom. Any belief system that must be forced upon others is not worthy of acceptance.

Kaleun1961
12-06-2005, 08:57 AM
Paul, my reference to the Christmas truce was in reference to the war which raged in Europe, which was, nominally at least, a "Christian" civilization. No matter how much I may study it, I cannot help but wonder at someone who calls himself a Christian, yet raises a sword against his brother of the same faith. There were various clergy on both sides, exhorting their followers to go forth and slaughter members of the same faith on the other side. There were Catholics on the German side killing Catholics on the Allied side; Protestants in the Allied armies killing Protestants in the German army; members of the same Church killing one another.

It is not confined to Christianity, by any means. In almost all of the wars of history you may find members of the same religion fighting for both sides.

paulhager
12-07-2005, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
I think that humans would slaughter each other in vast numbers even if there were no religions on earth. It is not so much that religion causes war, as that people will cling to any dogma and defend it against any and all comers, a good example being communism.

Of the many religions I have studied, I'm of the opinion it is not so much the religion itself that is to blame, it is the insistance of its adherents to force others to think the same as they do and not allow any dissension therefrom. Any belief system that must be forced upon others is not worthy of acceptance.

I completely agree. Dogma is the problem. Religion is merely one flavor of dogma. I think that one of the biggest omissions in the U.S. Constitution is in the 1st Amendment. The very first clause has, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". Better would be "Congress shall make no law promoting any dogma nor prohibit individuals from adhering to one...". Doesn't scan as good but, I trust you get the idea.

My conservative religious friends have a point when they say that the public school system indoctrinates kids in a particular brand of secularism. The problem is that, as long as it isn't religion, indoctrination is OK. It's one of the reasons that I'm on their side with respect to school choice.

The_Silent_O
12-07-2005, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by paulhager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
I think that humans would slaughter each other in vast numbers even if there were no religions on earth. It is not so much that religion causes war, as that people will cling to any dogma and defend it against any and all comers, a good example being communism.

Of the many religions I have studied, I'm of the opinion it is not so much the religion itself that is to blame, it is the insistance of its adherents to force others to think the same as they do and not allow any dissension therefrom. Any belief system that must be forced upon others is not worthy of acceptance.

I completely agree. Dogma is the problem. Religion is merely one flavor of dogma. I think that one of the biggest omissions in the U.S. Constitution is in the 1st Amendment. The very first clause has, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". Better would be "Congress shall make no law promoting any dogma nor prohibit individuals from adhering to one...". Doesn't scan as good but, I trust you get the idea.

My conservative religious friends have a point when they say that the public school system indoctrinates kids in a particular brand of secularism. The problem is that, as long as it isn't religion, indoctrination is OK. It's one of the reasons that I'm on their side with respect to school choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever cracked into a High School History book these days??? Talk about revisionism??? it's the definition! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

My dad retired from the military after 30 years and then taught JR HS history...He used the text only as a guide, but he definitely taught his own brand of history...heck, he lived through 60% of the book he was teaching from!

paulhager
12-07-2005, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
...
Have you ever cracked into a High School History book these days??? Talk about revisionism??? it's the definition!

My dad retired from the military after 30 years and then taught JR HS history...He used the text only as a guide, but he definitely taught his own brand of history...heck, he lived through 60% of the book he was teaching from!

It's not just History that is revised and dumbed-down. I blogged on some of the environmentalist dogma being pushed in MCCSC purveys eco-fascist propaganda (http://paulhager.org/wordpress/index.php?p=21) (MCCSC = Monroe County Community School Corporation).

I have no problem with states (not the Feds) providing funds for education. This seems to be a reasonable governmental activity. I do have a problem with the state monopoly in education. I'd rather have a few parents be able to send their kids to schools that teach Genesis instead of Darwin if it allows me to send MY kids to a school that teaches critical thinking, math, science, and objective social studies (history, sociology, political science, economics, etc.). This country desperately needs a competitive market in education.

macker33
12-07-2005, 12:47 PM
I personally think non christians should be made to be christian wether they like it or not,

CONVERT OR DIE.

Messervy
12-07-2005, 12:53 PM
You sound like a terrorist http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I thought you Irish folks are not that harsh?

macker33
12-07-2005, 01:15 PM
Not only that,i would make all the guys who look like girls get haircuts.

Oh to be king for just one day!

Messervy
12-07-2005, 01:18 PM
Jesus is usually depicted with long hair. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by paulhager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
...
Have you ever cracked into a High School History book these days??? Talk about revisionism??? it's the definition!

My dad retired from the military after 30 years and then taught JR HS history...He used the text only as a guide, but he definitely taught his own brand of history...heck, he lived through 60% of the book he was teaching from!

It's not just History that is revised and dumbed-down. I blogged on some of the environmentalist dogma being pushed in MCCSC purveys eco-fascist propaganda (http://paulhager.org/wordpress/index.php?p=21) (MCCSC = Monroe County Community School Corporation).

I have no problem with states (not the Feds) providing funds for education. This seems to be a reasonable governmental activity. I do have a problem with the state monopoly in education. I'd rather have a few parents be able to send their kids to schools that teach Genesis instead of Darwin if it allows me to send MY kids to a school that teaches critical thinking, math, science, and objective social studies (history, sociology, political science, economics, etc.). This country desperately needs a competitive market in education. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here in Ontario, Canada, we could use some school reform. We have two main competing school systems, as well as private, faith based schools. The public school system is open to any student, regardless of faith or credo, and is funded by taxes levied on property owners. Parallel to that is the Separate system, which is based on Catholicism. The Separate system is funded in a similar manner, by property taxes. If you wish to send your children to the Separate system, you must direct your education taxes to the Separate system. The government also directs money to both systems from provincial taxation, making up the balance of funding not met by local taxation.

The Separate system is a legacy of the circumstances of our founding. In the early days of Canada, the Protestant English and Catholic French fought for dominance, the English eventually winning. As a concession to the French, who were allowed to remain, they were allowed to maintain their Catholic faith based education. Originally that system only went to grade 9, then Separate students were streamed into public high schools for grades 10 to 13. In a controversial move a number of decades ago, the provincial government extended funding to the end of high school.

The inequity of this system is that only the Catholic system of education is publicly funded and individual taxpayers are not allowed to direct their education taxes to an alternative system. We also have Protestant Christian, Hebrew and other religious schools, but these are privately funded, which precludes the majority of the public from sending their children to such alternative, faith based schools. In addition, parents who send their children to these schools must still pay their full share of taxes to the public system.

Our government makes lip service to freedom of religion and separation of Church and State, but only for non-Catholics. The Catholic Church is a hidden influence on our governments in Canada, unfairly advantaged by legislation.

The perception of many is that the Separate system of education is superior to the Public system. Non-Catholics can get their children into the Separate system, but Catholic students are given priority. In addition to the inequity of one religion receiving an advantage, it results in inefficiency, with duplication of delivery of services.

macker33
12-07-2005, 01:30 PM
Yeah but Our Lord has a beard,
its only ok to have long hair if youve got a beard or moustasche,to further clear things up it would be my will for women to only have long hair.

Kaluen,all your complaints about the catholic church said to me was that the catholic church was there first when bothering with public common schools,
if the other churches bothered themselves with educating the common man there would be more non-catholic public schools.

paulhager
12-07-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by macker33:
Not only that,i would make all the guys who look like girls get haircuts.

Oh to be king for just one day!

And that's how long you'd last: one day.

"Sic semper tyrannis!"

macker33
12-07-2005, 01:39 PM
I'd be the best thing that could happen any country,
anyway how much money could a king send out of the country in one day?,before your time was up you could be on a plane with all the loot.

Messervy
12-07-2005, 01:42 PM
Some king! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Celeon999
12-07-2005, 01:46 PM
I read about the Christmas Truce some time ago, after heard the song "All together now" from the Farm I searched and found this


There is a great movie about this happening coming to the cinemas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I dont know when , but its highly praised at the moment.

Its an french/german co-production named "Merry Christmas"



the germans granted the amrecian 101. airborne a cristmas gift in the battle of the bulge 1944
A bombardment and a counterattack.


Heh some soldiers didnt got anything under the tree at christmas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

macker33
12-07-2005, 01:49 PM
Dont worry messervy,you can be my second in command which will entitle you to second pick of the women.

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 01:53 PM
Macker, both Catholic and Protestant churches developed public school systems. In some parts of Canada, one area or the other would be majority Catholic or Protestant. As our country grew, we had other areas which were Jewish enclaves, wherein Jewish schools were operated.

I have no beef with churches running schools. The churches ran the schools long before the State decided to get into the business of public education. Generally, religious and private schools do a better job of educating children. The public boards have been captured by conflicting interests, such as unions, liberalism and vocal minority interests [minority as in a political sense, not necessarily racial or ethnic.]

What would be most equitable for all would be to have one public system, open to all, with the right of parents to send their children to an alternative private or faith based system, with the right to direct their education taxes. In the U.S., I believe they have some form of voucher system, which enables parents to have more influence over the schools, which is as it should be.

The public system is suffering from a lack of direct competition. If parents had more direct control of the educational system via their tax dollars, the public system would have to shape up or go out of business. And, it is a business, when it comes right down to it.

Competition is healthy, fostering progress as opposed to mediocrity. Prior to the Japanese auto makers marketing their products here, the domestic auto industry had grown lazy, knowing they had a more or less captive market. With the import of high quality cars, the domestic producers were forced to improve their product, the improvement of which I doubt would have occurred without that direct competition.

One more thing, if it may seem trivial. There is no way to know for certain if Jesus had a beard. I think he most likely did, that being the fashion of the day, but it is not something which we should assume as fact. I place no faith in portraits and paintings of Jesus, depicting him as a handsome man and fostering in our minds the typical picture of him. I somewhat shudder at depictions of Jesus in such form, coming close to what I see as idolatry. The sacredness of Jesus is in how we who are Christians venerate him in mind and action, not imagery.

The_Silent_O
12-07-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:

Here in Ontario, Canada, we could use some school reform. We have two main competing school systems, as well as private, faith based schools. The public school system is open to any student, regardless of faith or credo, and is funded by taxes levied on property owners. Parallel to that is the Separate system, which is based on Catholicism. The Separate system is funded in a similar manner, by property taxes. If you wish to send your children to the Separate system, you must direct your education taxes to the Separate system. The government also directs money to both systems from provincial taxation, making up the balance of funding not met by local taxation.

The Separate system is a legacy of the circumstances of our founding. In the early days of Canada, the Protestant English and Catholic French fought for dominance, the English eventually winning. As a concession to the French, who were allowed to remain, they were allowed to maintain their Catholic faith based education. Originally that system only went to grade 9, then Separate students were streamed into public high schools for grades 10 to 13. In a controversial move a number of decades ago, the provincial government extended funding to the end of high school.

The inequity of this system is that only the Catholic system of education is publicly funded and individual taxpayers are not allowed to direct their education taxes to an alternative system. We also have Protestant Christian, Hebrew and other religious schools, but these are privately funded, which precludes the majority of the public from sending their children to such alternative, faith based schools. In addition, parents who send their children to these schools must still pay their full share of taxes to the public system.

Our government makes lip service to freedom of religion and separation of Church and State, but only for non-Catholics. The Catholic Church is a hidden influence on our governments in Canada, unfairly advantaged by legislation.

The perception of many is that the Separate system of education is superior to the Public system. Non-Catholics can get their children into the Separate system, but Catholic students are given priority. In addition to the inequity of one religion receiving an advantage, it results in inefficiency, with duplication of delivery of services.

This is very interesting...never knew that of Canada (or is that just Ontario?). As a Catholic, I'd have to say that I WOULD NOT support this type of funding...mainly because it does cause a rift between the religions and citizens. Leave religious education to the churches, but I feel it is okay to give students 5 minutes to meditate in public schools (say prayers, doodle, whatever).

here in the USA we've started the School Voucher program where, instead of sending your children to public schools, you can apply for a voucher to send your student to a private or religious based school. A good idea I think, takes the strain off the public school system. It also proves that even education has to exist in a business competitive enviroment. How they doll out the vouchers can cause some consternation...as you alluded to above.

The_Silent_O
12-07-2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:

One more thing, if it may seem trivial. There is no way to know for certain if Jesus had a beard. I think he most likely did, that being the fashion of the day, but it is not something which we should assume as fact. I place no faith in portraits and paintings of Jesus, depicting him as a handsome man and fostering in our minds the typical picture of him. I somewhat shudder at depictions of Jesus in such form, coming close to what I see as idolatry. The sacredness of Jesus is in how we who are Christians venerate him in mind and action, not imagery.

Amen, brother...for all we know, Jesus could have looked like this!:
http://www.crazynews.net/dp/files/1-22.jpg

Who knows what he looked like...who cares, it was his actions that mattered.

Celeon999
12-07-2005, 02:26 PM
He even wears an "Heartbreak Hotel" shirt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 02:28 PM
I'll try not to turn this thread into a scripture quoting thing, as I know that it would bother some and this is not really the place for it, but I'll make these brief observations. In the Old Testament, Isaiah spoke of Messiah as "having no form or comeliness that we should desire him." Also, when the Romans came to arrest him, they could not pick him out from the others. He first had to be identified. If Jesus was some handsome, charismatic looking fellow, he almost certainly would have been a cut above the rest and easy to distinguish. His following was based upon his words and deeds, not his charisma. I doubt he would have made a good politician today, where a slick and polished image is valued above all else. Look at the hatchet job the media did with Bob Dole a few years ago.

I find it despicable how a person seeking public office is ridiculed and poked fun of if he or she is not "charismatic" or slick. Many years ago, here in Canada, the media did a butcher job on a Conservative candidate, Robert Stanfield. They loved to depict him as in inept bumbler. The best example of this was a photo of him on the front page of a major newspaper, fumbling a football at the Grey Cup [the Canuck Super bowl.] That photo said it all, here is a guy who can't even catch a football, can we let him fumble the country? What was not mentioned was that he had caught several balls prior to that. The media chose to run a photo of him when he dropped that one ball.

I wonder if Bill Clinton would have been elected if the New York Times published a picture of him, pants around his ankles, receving ******** from an intern? Our previous Prime Minister had a speech impediment and facial deformity which was deemed out of bounds. Of course, he was a darling of the liberal media in Canada, being a Liberal. Meanwhile, they had all kinds of fun mocking the Reform candidate as some kind of Puritan preacher. It is sad, but people are manipulated by this kind of thing, which is why I have so little respect for the Fourth Estate.

macker33
12-07-2005, 02:43 PM
Kaleun i cannot disagree more that competition is healthy,there are a lot of negatives.

As for your thoughts regarding Our Lord i think i might be a bit hard line for your tastes.Whats wrong with idolising Jesus?I idolise Jesus.

Silent O http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Everbody knows Buddy Holly was the real king of rock and roll.

The_Silent_O
12-07-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
He even wears an "Heartbreak Hotel" shirt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cel999, still awake?! and still making me laugh!

Like I've told K61 about Doenitz, everytime I read your posts I get this audible image that Sergeant Schultz is taking to me!

You guys all probably think I'm a silent skinny guy...and not surprising, I am!

Man this has been a prolific two days for us...did we eat our wheaties this weekend or what?

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 02:52 PM
Macker, I think it comes down to the philosophical differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. For what it is worth, I am not Catholic, but I also do not think of myself as Protestant. That may seem strange to some; perhaps some would regard anyone who is not Catholic as Protestant. I've studied the beliefs of many Christian denominations, so I doubt if I would regard your beliefs as being hard line. In fact, I have more respect for people with firm beliefs than those who are wishy-washy, as long as they accord the same respect to others as they themselves expect.

Celeon999
12-07-2005, 02:58 PM
Cel999, still awake?! and still making me laugh!

Like I've told K61 about Doenitz, everytime I read your posts I get this audible image that Sergeant Schultz is taking to me!

You guys all probably think I'm a silent skinny guy...and not surprising, I am!

Man this has been a prolific two days for us...did we eat our wheaties this weekend or what?


Yez im still awake ant i em luuking MASH on DVD. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good old Hawkeye just told Trapper that he can walk naked over to the mess tent and nobody in this crazy MASH camp would recognize it.

And he did and was right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

macker33
12-07-2005, 03:07 PM
Oh well yeah,catholics do consider everyone who is not catholic to be protestant and rightly or wrongly consider other faiths to be inferior,in ireland at least catholics dont differentiate between one protestant denomination or another.Leaving jews out of the equasion catholics do hold protestants in higher regard than the other do-it-yourself faiths,

Likewise i would have a higher regard for a christian(or jew)than a pagan.I dont know would i be able to take to a heathen,its probably a trust thing as much as anything.

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 03:10 PM
Competition is like a sword, it has two edges and cuts both ways. It does cause disruption when people lose their jobs. Capitalism, I think, is the economic equivalent of biological Darwinism. Competition in the economic realm stimulates progress, albeit not without pain. I doubt that there can ever be progress without pain. I think socialism is an attempt to humanize progress and make it hurt less, but it also has its downsides.

The world is increasingly becoming a global village. Competition forces progress, no matter how we may wish to hold progress back. It is inevitable and cannot be checked. The former Eastern Bloc nations tried to check progress, but progress eventually bankrupted them. Any country which tries to enforce limits on progress is invariably totalitarian. The best examples of this today would be Albania or North Korea, to name a few.

Dictators may build walls, but freedom and ideas eventually filter through the cracks. The growth of the internet is speeding this process. In another discussion today in this forum, the issue of Iranian acquisition of atomic weaponry was mentioned. Even in those Islamic countries which repress foreign ideas, inevitably those people will get a sniff of freedom and want to embrace it. You can shove ideology down peoples throats all you like, but at the end of the day, toilet paper and blue jeans will be what people really want.

Competition as we see it in Western democracies is also abused by capitalism without a heart. There is no such thing as a totally capitalistic country. Every country I can think of has a bit of this and a bit of that. My country, Canada, is mostly capitalistic, but we have socialized health care, pension plans and the like. What ticks me off is the super rich who aren't satisfied with what they have and need to squeeze those below them for a few pennies more.

I believe in the free flow of goods and information, but there have to be limits somewhere. You can't treat people like cattle. The healthiest situation, in my opinion, is to have a healthy middle class, to which the poorer may aspire and from which one may strive to ascend. I am sickened by fat-cat executives who try to squeeze the labour force with threats of foreign competition and yet whose own jobs seem immune to competition. My own company a few years ago chopped wages by 20% while at the same time awarding multi-million dollar bonuses to management. That isn't competition, that's greed. Still, you can't blame that on the economic system. Even under communism you had those who stole from the people. It's simply human nature.

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Celeon999:
He even wears an "Heartbreak Hotel" shirt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cel999, still awake?! and still making me laugh!

Like I've told K61 about Doenitz, everytime I read your posts I get this audible image that Sergeant Schultz is taking to me!

You guys all probably think I'm a silent skinny guy...and not surprising, I am!

Man this has been a prolific two days for us...did we eat our wheaties this weekend or what? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been glued to the screen today, jumping from thread to thread. I'm getting skinnier by the minute; I've had no breakfast [slept through it] or lunch. Now, I smell my wife's cooking wafting upstairs. She's making honey-garlic wings for supper, so I won't be missing that meal.

I have the same feeling you guys do. Celeon is Schultz, I'm Doenitz and you're Herr Kretschmer to me. We need to get some photos of ourselves up here. The worst of it is, I'm beginning to think of Macker as a mermaid.

Celeon999
12-07-2005, 03:21 PM
Thank the lord im an atheist ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Here is a link to the movie i was talking about.
You can download an quicktime trailer there too.

Merry Christmas (http://www.moviemaze.de/media/trailer/2188/merry-christmas.html)

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
Thank the lord im an atheist ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Here is a link to the movie i was talking about.
You can download an quicktime trailer there too.

Merry Christmas (http://www.moviemaze.de/media/trailer/2188/merry-christmas.html)

Doesn't matter, I'll still talk to you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

macker33
12-07-2005, 04:26 PM
I'd probably be the ugliest mermaid youd ever see(very hairy chin),there was a girl here ages back,something 1981 or 1984,i cant remember her name but she got everyone to post pictures of themselves up.She reminded me of a mermaid.

BTW.theres about twenty arguements in one here.I think competition is bad,as for capitalism i aint too impressed,i'd be socialist if i was anything,i dont think progress is the greatest good that man can aspire to,progress is just a means to an end but it aint the end itself.
I think this"progress is a thing to be persuided" is whats responsible for a lot of the stupidity in the world today.

Gay marraige?is that progress?headless chickens and false virtues is whats driving the moral climate.Whats right today might be wrong tomorrow,how can this be?if it glitters it must be gold,i think people have the right cloths but they wear them inside out.

As for freedom and blue jeans?how is somebody made not free?its all bull,to what extent does the outside world affect the individual?a man in america is drafted and commentators say hes doing the right thing and hes doing his duty,a russian man 20years ago gets drafted and the same commentor regards this as slavery.A sexy american woman in tight jeans(thank me later)is really no different than a sexy russian woman in tight jeans(one thanks is enough).

The only thing thats different anywhere is the currency of conversation and how people act over it.

Rich people dont screw poor people(i live in a very equel country),rich people are cursing the tax man like everyone else.Let the rich have their money,the best things in life are free anyway.

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 05:26 PM
Yes, we do have many ideas going here. My point about the blue jeans is not so much to promote materialism, but alluding to closed societies, wherein people are lied to all the time and held down by oppressive regimes. Sooner or later they find out the truth and then they are not so easy to oppress. In the former communist regimes the people used to be told how poor the average man was in the West. When they finally saw for themselves that the average person in the West lived like a king compared to themselves, there was no way they were going to continue to live like that.

Progress to me is that which advances one's standard of living, which in general is a good thing. Still, capitalism has its shortcomings too. I am always amused at what garbage is manufactured and sold to people every day, especially around Christmas time. People go out and put themselves into the hole to buy junk for their relatives which never gets used. I like progress which advances human living, things which enhance our quality of life. And by that I mean quality of life, not quantity of possessions.

But I do have to disagree on one point. I think the rich do screw the poor. Look at how the stock market is manipulated. Some poor guy rips off a liquor store and he goes to jail for years; some bigshot trader rips off the market for millions and he gets a slap on the wrist.

macker33
12-07-2005, 06:14 PM
If being lied to by your government means youre not free then countries like england and to some extent america arent free.
China,whats wrong with china?the chinese government seems to tell the truth about a lot of things,i'd trust chinese news reports far faster than i would believe an english news report,i just find them more believable.
The chinese people seem to be behind the government and what they try to do.

I actually get what you mean by bluejeans(and bothersome troubles).Money and progress dont really equel a better standard of living,you can have no money and be happy and you can be rich and be unhappy,
Like i said already,i'm not the greatest fan of capitalism,its a small bed and stuff that used to be free ends up having to be paid for.Thats a big and notacible downside and for any country that used to be socialist or communist buts cant be seen any else but a turn for the worst.I'm serious about that.
Competition doesnt necessarily keep prices down.At the moment here there is a scandal about car dealers price fixing.

Its not the rich that screw the poor,its the greedy and people who have no qualms about taking what doesnt belong to them that screw the poor.

Lah,i gotta hit the hay because i want to get up early tomorrow and pay the rent.

Kaleun1961
12-07-2005, 08:26 PM
I'm quite sure that governments all over the world lie to their people. It is a truly free press that keeps them more or less in line.

Yes, it is painful for the former communist countries to make the transition to a free market economy. However long it takes, when it does happen I think they will be glad they made the change. Living under oppressive, unelected leaders is a bummer. I'm glad I grew up in a country where I can speak my mind, ridicule my Prime Minister and not have to worry about the secret police kicking in my door and sending me to a gulag for "anti-State" activities.

I don't remember writing anything about China. I'm amused that you give the Chinese government more credibility than you would the English, one of the world's oldest democracies. If you're Irish, I can understand your animosity toward the English. I also can't agree with you that the Chinese are behind what their government does. Would that include killing all those students in Tiananmen Square, or the tens of millions Mao butchered to bring in his worker's paradise? Maybe for them, a centralized and authoritarian regime suits them best, but since they haven't had comparable civil liberties and the choice, it's a moot point.

Ratek
12-07-2005, 08:42 PM
Don't forget the Tibetans, the Uighurs (Muslims) and the Falun Gong movement.

Anyway, go to Poland, Hungary or the Czeck Republic... Rich no, but poverty is on a rapid decline. They are much more prosperous right now. The Baltic states are rapidly catching up to us.
Bulgaria, Rumania and the rest I'm not too confident about but they too seem to be recovering from the initial backlash.

Celeon999
12-08-2005, 05:36 AM
Thank the lord im an atheist !


Here is a link to the movie i was talking about.
You can download an quicktime trailer there too.

Merry Christmas

@ Silent

Ive noticed that actor from Good bye Lenin plays the german major in that one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is the same trailer in different languages and formats.

Trailers (http://german.imdb.com/title/tt0424205/trailers)

The_Silent_O
12-08-2005, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Thank the lord im an atheist !


Here is a link to the movie i was talking about.
You can download an quicktime trailer there too.

Merry Christmas

@ Silent

Ive noticed that actor from Good bye Lenin plays the german major in that one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is the same trailer in different languages and formats.

Trailers (http://german.imdb.com/title/tt0424205/trailers) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now why in the Hell would Diane Kruger get top billing in this movie about trench warfare in WWI...was there some secret Uber-Blond all female storm trooper unit we never found out about?

Not that I would mind gazing at those beautiful hips of hers though! (would be hard to see through her sturmtruppen outfit!)

Yeah, Daniel Bruhl's the guy, pretty good actor,...For a German! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Only joking, he's actually half Spanish if you read his bio. But then again German Spanish, what's the difference, secret allies to the end!

macker33
12-08-2005, 10:59 AM
Ok i wont be here long,its dec 8th and the decorations have to go up.

First off,nobody mentioned china until i said it but i'm pretty sure you are familiar with terms like axis of evil,global terrorism,world communism(old),so called free governments have used these generalisations to get its own public onside,

want to believe it or not but a lot of westerners are just products of their own governments spin,to get a fair report someone has to go to an independant source for their information(and avoid this whole one mans patriot is the other mans demon debate).

Which brings me back to china,for years a lot of high up people in the west have been slating china saying its totalitarian,
I've never seen anything more evil about china than any other country,on the surface the place looks normal and the people look happy.

The same with russia,my granddad visited the soviet union in the 60s as a trade union representitive and he said(hes not the kind of man that can be fooled)everything he was told about the russians was nonsense,russia was modern and clean,the people were friendly.

And yes,i believe the chinese more than the english when it comes to political matters.

Tiananmen Square etc?one swallow doesnt make a summer.
As for me being irish accounting for me having a grudge against england thats untrue,if you still maintain that you are unbiased then you must admit that its pretty hypocritical of the english government to spout on about democracy in iraq and other countries when the situation up in the north of ireland is the way it is.

Freedom is freedom from laws?Its a big generalisation and i dont know is it a young people thing or a protestant thing but wealth is not a "freedom meter" just like possesions are not a measurement of worth and happiness(typical catholic statement).
somebody from china or korea might argue that they are more free than the west because they have less law,
They have a point,toe the party line,dont complain,what else do they have to do.Whereas in the west you cant litter,you cant drink in public,you cant smoke in public buildings and you cant walk on the grass,know what i mean?climb over a wall and you might as well have shot the cat.

Its a question of what people carry around with them,who's better off?a carefree man living under a "regime" or a bothered man living in a "free" country.

Ratek::I still dont like out and out capitalism,a chain is only as good as its weakest link.

general_kalle
12-09-2005, 07:32 AM
OFF TROPIC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif try to read the first and the last reply and compare em<span class="ev_code_RED">!!!</span>

Kaleun1961
12-09-2005, 09:31 AM
Kalle, that tends to happen around here. Threads run off in an entirley different direction. If the original issue is resolved and then the thread goes off somewhere else, it's not such a big deal.

macker33
12-14-2005, 03:05 AM
Such is life.

paulhager
12-14-2005, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:

. . .

But I do have to disagree on one point. I think the rich do screw the poor. Look at how the stock market is manipulated. Some poor guy rips off a liquor store and he goes to jail for years; some bigshot trader rips off the market for millions and he gets a slap on the wrist.

The "Rich" don't screw the poor under capitalism - you're thinking of the socialist-kleptocracies in Africa. If you follow the news in the U.S. you'll know that a lot of Presidents and CEO's of companies have received very long sentences for fraud recently.

And then there's Martha Stewart who in my opinion was screwed over by the system precisely because she was "rich". The prosecutor went for an utterly bogus charge of insider trading which was untenable and then got her for providing misinformation to investigators. As a civil libertarian, I was appalled - it validated my admonition to people that, if you are ever asked questions by the police, refuse to answer unless you have a lawyer present. Police/investigators ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.

So, the point is that financial "manipulations" are punished harshly in the U.S. - I'd actually say too harshly but, as they say, YMMV.

Generally speaking, capitalism is a non-zero sum, win-win system. Socialism creates scarcity via regulation and empowers bureaucrats to pick and choose who wins and who loses. There is a reason why the most socialist developed countries have around twice the unemployment of the U.S. and around half the birthrate and it is that socialism just doesn't work very well.

Ratek
12-14-2005, 07:35 AM
Let's not forget what happened recently in China... It is still unknown how many actually died, but it is not surprising that they are pretty tightlipped about that.