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TheCrux
01-10-2008, 06:54 AM
Any old hands have some advice on how to counter a Split-S without killing my energy and putting me on the slippery slope? Very annoying..and I've been flying for years.

I'm trying to perfect ( OK, get to the point where I can hold my own ) my air combat skills, I've read 'In Pursuit' ( book ) plus countless other guides on the internet and can do well here and there, but I am finding that there's one instance where I usually screw up and then end up on the defense I can't ultimately escape from....even though I'm in a plane that is slightly faster ( Read: Ki-84 or J2M vs. Late model Spit ). Happens with several enemy pilots.

I'm approaching ( with somewhat more energy ) someone from the slightly high 5 to 7 and just as I get into gun range, the opponent rolls/breaks and heads downwards ( usually not a true split-S )...obviously spoiling my shot, and forcing me to either pursue down or continue and reclimb to preserve my altitude/energy advantage ( and he attempts same )...after which I generally end up on his high 5-7...ad nauseum. After tiring of this stalemate ( at least I keep my energy and initiative advantage..and myself safe ) I end up trying to follow his rolling break downward by doing the same or split-essing...and from that point on I lose my energy while he (seemingly ) keeps his, and then I can never again get enough room to extend from him enough to regain my speed to climb or extend...and then it's just a matter of me parrying his attacks via barrel rolls and attempted scissors, but it only delays my getting shot or damaged. ( I'm often successful in getting them to exhaust their meagre supply of cannon rounds )

Thanks for any good advice...and for the absence of any wiseacre remarks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
01-10-2008, 07:53 AM
So you're up against a 'wise old pilot', after 2 or 3x use your height to escape and find somebody else. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Ive done this on many occasions when someone tried to BnZ me. You cannot turn with him without blacking out OR if you fall into the trap I usually set - to slow down and try follow him, then you're dead meat.

So there you go... He's waiting for you to loose patience, all the while gaining more height... shouldn't be long now.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rnzoli
01-10-2008, 08:40 AM
I'm approaching ( with somewhat more energy ) someone from the slightly high 5 to 7 and just as I get into gun range, the opponent rolls/breaks and heads downwards
Split-S is quite a good defensive manouver by slower/better turning opponent. You cannot counter it with a faster/worse turning plane, but you can try to make it difficult/inappropriate to apply.

1) Your opponent breaks just in time because he sees you. Make yourself less visible by coming out from a cloud, diving from the Sun's direction, or going under his level in your dive, so you approach from a slight low 5-7 position, merging yourself into the terrain. You can get your best results when you make 2 "normal" attacks, and just when he thinks "ah, he willl lose patience soon, I feel my time coming", surprise him by coming in with a differerent approach.

2) The split-S is fairly useless when an opponent comes from a very high angle. If there is enough altitude (>1000m) approach in a nearly vertical dive, ie., don't start your dive until your directly above him. It is difficult to see you that way, and if he choses to make a split-S when he hears your engine roar, he will practically line himself for the dead 6 shot, or without Split-S, he offers the full cross-section of his plane for a deflection shot. Make sure to pull out of the vertical dive gently and disengage in the opposition of his flight path.

On the 102nd COOP server I have a classic T&B vs B&Z mission, I-185 vs FW-190A4, if you want to practice, I am game, I love to fly the challenge for either side http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
01-10-2008, 10:23 AM
It actually makes no diff what angle you come in at, if he sees you on time.

Another thought is that, if you come in on the 6 about 500m behind, diving below his altitude so that you'll now be completely out of sight. Then climb up to him having a shot as you whizz pass. Climbing away at between 4-8 OC direction as he will not be able to turn around in time.

this will probably be your only shot and if you damage something you'll now have the advantage.'
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Loco-S
01-10-2008, 11:17 AM
You have to practice online, the AI in game will see you, no matter what you do, even if you come from below and at his six, ....there is no way you can try to fight on their blind side.

buzzsaw1939
01-10-2008, 12:23 PM
If you want to beat the AI, you will have to get inside the heads of the developers, it can be done! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Zoom2136
01-10-2008, 12:35 PM
Go into a hi-yoyo....

- You will have... bleed your excess speed
- Gather altitude... which can be converted to speed if you decide to dive down after the running bandit...


Remember... he went straigh down... and lost a lot of E when he made a sharp pullup... Start a rather step dive toward the running bandit... pulling up gently so not to loose E... When in gun range... blow him to pieces...

And wait fo the chat bar comment.... How the hell did you catch me in my 190... your in a Spit.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

general_kalle
01-10-2008, 12:47 PM
if you do the maneuver rnzoli proposed by attacking from almost vertical he's gonna be in truble if he splits-S. but if he turns a sharp left or right you've gained nothing.

theres always a counter meneuver

TheCrux
01-10-2008, 07:50 PM
Thanks for the advice here. And BTW, I WAS referring to online experiences ( I should have mentioned it in my initial post ) though I have seen AI do the same behavior offline.

Ratsack
01-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
So you're up against a 'wise old pilot', after 2 or 3x use your height to escape and find somebody else. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Ive done this on many occasions when someone tried to BnZ me. You cannot turn with him without blacking out OR if you fall into the trap I usually set - to slow down and try follow him, then you're dead meat.

So there you go... He's waiting for you to loose patience, all the while gaining more height... shouldn't be long now.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

That's the guts of it right there.

cheers,
Ratsack

sgt.dumpster
01-11-2008, 10:02 AM
So..............your the pilot who's been tailing my 109!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scen
01-11-2008, 05:52 PM
Well actually you're leaving quite a bit of information out of the senario... What kind of planes are each of you flying? What Alt does the fight start at?

FYI I can't tell you how many people I've killed as they Roll into a spit S. In essence it turns into a snap shot and you can fill him full of lead.

Also as a general rule of thumb... Don't start your turn into the bandit until you get to where he was the moment he broke. Basically it depends upon what your goal is. Do you want to stay outside his turn circle and remain outside in Lag persuit or did you want to lead persuit for a shot or lastly pure persuit to follow him down. It depends upon your plane and how you would like to capitalize on the situation.

If you think about your senario you have the advantage in the begining of the fight by approaching his 5-7 oclock.

Generally if you're in a better turning plane you can opt go go inside his turn circle and take your shot. If you're in a faster plane you can opt to Yo-Yo to maintain advantage of the fight with better energy retention. Again enough seperation to complete your turn back into him while gaining height or lag persuing him.

I'm pretty aggressive and go for a shot as he rolls and pulls through and drive through him extending seperating and coming back into him. It really does depend on a lot of variables like how close are you when the bandit breaks etc.

If it's far enough out he might just make his turn enough to negate your advantage. If that isn't the case and he's defensive you need to really think about your type of plane what is the advantage and how can you capitalize on the situation.

kid_SA
01-12-2008, 09:49 AM
the main thing is not to loose patience. He can turn better than you, so he will want you to dive and burn E.

Remember that drag is proportional to speed, so the faster you go, the more E you loose. Hence you have more to loose by following his dive than he does. On top of that, higher speed gives you more momentum, so turning at high speed will increase your AOA and bleed more E. Two good reasons not to follow him. But all rules can be broken.

If you maintain your cool, all he can do is buy himself time. Run through the move a few times and observe his actions. How lax is his turn? If he's diving and turning hard, he's loosing E himself, so he'll simply end up on the deck with nowhere to dive. If his turn is lax, you can turn inside him.

The difference in turn between two planes is only at the edge of the performance envelope. I've turned with an I16 or an I153 in a 109 at times, if I could feel that they were not pushing their planes. The instinct is "I can turn better than he does, so he won't turn with me at all" but if you're aggressive, you can do quite a bit, especially by surprise. Be careful to leave yourself an avenue of escape though.

The second option is to take the snapshot that he offers. If it's a simple split-S, then it's an easy-ish deflection shot. Start your attack from slightly higher than normal, pointing ahead of his plane, and wait for him to dive. When he does, keep flying straight and pointing down to slice across his dive and take the shot. Even if you miss, he'll probably be rattled, and that's most of the battle. Further, he'll be pointing in the other direction to you, and slower, giving you an excellent egress opportunity, win or loose.

The point is not to turn with him, but to anticipate where he will be and to be almost point blank at some point in his turn. The shot is thus made much easier, thanks to the lack of range.

If he's a really good pilot, he won't simply dive. He'll start a turn to one side and roll with the turn, to end up pointing downwards when you blow through, or add a slight variation to the above. This move changes the plane's heading at all times, making it exceedingly difficult to get even a snap shot. Against this foe, you have a problem. Bring a fistful of friends to saturate his SA or try a drag&bag.

Viper2005_
01-12-2008, 10:23 AM
Leave him and search for easier prey. The second he gave up his altitude he surrendered his ability to threaten you, so he's no longer a factor.

Remember that objective of aerial combat is to put the enemy out of action, not to fight him.

If you can kill him, that's great. If you can't, forcing him to go evasive and dump his energy so that he can no-longer threaten you is almost as good.

Afterall, really it's all about the bombers. Either you're trying to stop enemy fighters from climbing up to your bombers, or you're trying to punch through the enemy escort to kill his bombers.

So rejoice in what amounts to a partial "mission kill" and hold on to your energy, ready for the next customer (which may well be the same guy you bounced earlier, coming back for another hard lesson). Next time you might get a snapshot in if you're lucky; if you're a good shot you'll only need to get lucky once.

This isn't a good strategy for scoring points, but it is a good strategy for winning maps/battles/wars whilst staying alive.