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View Full Version : Engaging over 100% throttle without WEP?



DKoor
06-16-2008, 03:15 AM
Is it possible?
On some aircraft such is P-47 or Bf-109 it is enough to wait until WEP runs dry, however, some have inexhaustible WEP supply. Such aircraft are P-51, Spitfire, A6M5 etc.

I wanted to test their speed @ full throttle without Water Meth injection, so is this possible?

Xiolablu3
06-16-2008, 06:58 AM
The Spitfire will not go over 100%, I have often wondered why all other planes go up to 110% and if that has something to do with it overheating less...

JG53Frankyboy
06-16-2008, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Is it possible?
On some aircraft such is P-47 or Bf-109 it is enough to wait until WEP runs dry, however, some have inexhaustible WEP supply. Such aircraft are P-51, Spitfire, A6M5 etc.

I wanted to test their speed @ full throttle without Water Meth injection, so is this possible?

well, Spitfires, P-51s and A6M5 (except 5c) dont use water/meth injection - so they cant run out of it .
using WEP here means the engine is set at a higher boost status with using a lot more fuel.

even MW using planes in game doestn run out of it.............. in my experience at least the Ki-84........... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


btw, i like the kind of modelling the use of WEP in the ingame Spitfires. you have the 100% , meaning combat power or Steig-/Kampfleistung and than , after "pushing" trough the gate the WEP or Start-/Notleisung. Nothing between like in the most other planes.

Skoshi Tiger
06-16-2008, 08:14 AM
Oh! You can press the 'W' key and get WEP in the spitfire?

Bum! never tried that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

Daiichidoku
06-16-2008, 08:15 AM
just the other day i was wondering if running your P47 at 101% will let water/meth run for a longer time than at 110%

DKoor, youre a glutton for testing punishment, whaddya say? :P

JG53Frankyboy
06-16-2008, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
just the other day i was wondering if running your P47 at 101% will let water/meth run for a longer time than at 110%

DKoor, youre a glutton for testing punishment, whaddya say? :P

at least in the Bf109s (26min), Fw190/Ta152s (35min) and Zeros (18 min) there is no timedifference betwenn using the MW injection in 101 or 110% power - the Zeros actualy using the fluid also below 101% ............

Krt_Bong
06-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Don't know about in game but IRL the P-51 had 5 mins of War Emergency Power after that the engine was toast.

Xiolablu3
06-17-2008, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Krt_Bong:
Don't know about in game but IRL the P-51 had 5 mins of War Emergency Power after that the engine was toast.

I dont think thats correct mate.

These planes could go for much longer with WEP on, however the plane might need a full engine rebuild afterwards.

The P51 had basically the same engine as the Spitfire IX, and there are numerous reports of Spitfire IX pilots heavily mistreating their Merlin engine with respect to WEP etc and never knowing one fail. I have seen many writings of SPitfire pilots stating 'I never gave a single thought to my engine failing, no matter how badly I treated it'.

These engines were heavily tested by setting them up on a block and running them full power+WEP until they failed to see how they could imrove reliability. The most likely part to fail in a set of tests was then improved.

Obviously we need more evidence, but I really dont think a P51's Merlin would fail after 5mins, or even 15minutes. However the mechanics may not let the plane take off again until it has had a full engine rebuild, so it adds alot of work.

I believe the P51/Spitfire had a piece of wire which marked 'the gate' (WEP, and if the wire was broken the mechanics could tell that WEP had been used and that the engine required dismantling and checking.

Obviously if the pilot has a choice of saving his life or running the WEP for 15 mins, hes going to choose the latter. I dont think I have ever read about a pilot burning out the engine through excessive WEP use, Allied or Axis. Whether thats just not reading enough, or the fact that it seldom happened, I'm not sure. I would suspect things would be the same with German engines, and that they routinely broke the supposed 'limits' concerning WEP.

Maybe some could provide info for Bf109/FW190 WEP usage/limits etc, or anyone else who has read much on the subject of Allied OR Axis WEP limits/Engine wear.

Please note that this post is based almost as much on my thoughts, as on facts. So I am ready to be set straight if I am wrong....

DKoor
06-17-2008, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
just the other day i was wondering if running your P47 at 101% will let water/meth run for a longer time than at 110%

DKoor, youre a glutton for testing punishment, whaddya say? :P http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who knows... I haven't thought of testing that but now that you mentioned it... it isn't a prob really. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

DKoor
06-17-2008, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Is it possible?
On some aircraft such is P-47 or Bf-109 it is enough to wait until WEP runs dry, however, some have inexhaustible WEP supply. Such aircraft are P-51, Spitfire, A6M5 etc.

I wanted to test their speed @ full throttle without Water Meth injection, so is this possible?

well, Spitfires, P-51s and A6M5 (except 5c) dont use water/meth injection - so they cant run out of it .
using WEP here means the engine is set at a higher boost status with using a lot more fuel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks mate, I didn't know that.

I don't really know why they choose to use plain 110% on some fighters, on some 110%+WEP message and neither are really using any kind of fluid injection to boost performance, only higher throttle settings really? Weird.

DKoor
06-17-2008, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
just the other day i was wondering if running your P47 at 101% will let water/meth run for a longer time than at 110%

DKoor, youre a glutton for testing punishment, whaddya say? :P

at least in the Bf109s (26min), Fw190/Ta152s (35min) and Zeros (18 min) there is no timedifference betwenn using the MW injection in 101 or 110% power - the Zeros actualy using the fluid also below 101% ............ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, that's what I thought too... there are some things in game that are recognized very simplistic, only 1 or 0 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

DKoor
06-17-2008, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The P51 had basically the same engine as the Spitfire IX, and there are numerous reports of Spitfire IX pilots heavily mistreating their Merlin engine with respect to WEP etc and never knowing one fail. What I don't really understand here is the fact that @ deck P-51D takes engine damage after 287sec of being under overheat, and Spitfire Mk.IX 25lbs don't take damage.
Ok Spit may have better rads or something (on auto they are probably open in game to avoid overheat but I can't be sure), but on the other hand P-51D although it runs with rads closed (I can test it with rads fully open but I doubt that it wont overheat) produces significant amount of speed that excess Spitfire speed by 37kph, and of course that surely adds to more cooling too.

Any insight on this?

Xiolablu3
06-17-2008, 04:13 PM
SPitfire IX has always had a strange overheat system, hasnt it.

I too would love to see an explanation for it. The Spitfire V's seem to act pretty normal, but the Spitfire IX's with their auto-rads seem to overheat less than other aircraft for some reason.

I always wondered if its a bug which exists because the Spitfire IX doesnt go over 100% throttle, and therefore acts as other planes do at 100%. (For example a FW190D9 wouldnt overheat if it ran at 100% +WEP either).

I think cruise speeds need to be worked on in general in SOW series to make planes cruise more close to their real cruise speed.

At the moment for example the SPitfire IX's cruise speed is basically Full+WEP. Also other types can easily cruise at 104%+ WEP with no probs.

The big problem here is that possibly a WW2 DaimlerBenz or Merlin engine WOULD run for 1 hour at these settings but be on the verge of breaking up as the plane finished its sortie. Real WW2 pilots would not be able to run their plane to breaking point every sortie like we can with no worries. The mechanics would kill them after the 3rd sortie from having to rebuild the whole engine.

R_Target
06-17-2008, 08:30 PM
http://i28.tinypic.com/2qus0lt.jpg

DKoor
06-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
SPitfire IX has always had a strange overheat system, hasnt it.

I too would love to see an explanation for it. The Spitfire V's seem to act pretty normal, but the Spitfire IX's with their auto-rads seem to overheat less than other aircraft for some reason.

I always wondered if its a bug which exists because the Spitfire IX doesnt go over 100% throttle, and therefore acts as other planes do at 100%. (For example a FW190D9 wouldnt overheat if it ran at 100% +WEP either).

I think cruise speeds need to be worked on in general in SOW series to make planes cruise more close to their real cruise speed.

At the moment for example the SPitfire IX's cruise speed is basically Full+WEP. Also other types can easily cruise at 104%+ WEP with no probs.

The big problem here is that possibly a WW2 DaimlerBenz or Merlin engine WOULD run for 1 hour at these settings but be on the verge of breaking up as the plane finished its sortie. Real WW2 pilots would not be able to run their plane to breaking point every sortie like we can with no worries. The mechanics would kill them after the 3rd sortie from having to rebuild the whole engine. Yes. But couple of things here... for instance Lavochkin 5 also can't move throttle beyond 100%.
And... it wouldn't be too hard to compare Spitfire speed or Lavochkin speed (LA speeds seems to be correct except from deviation in LA-5FN performance) in game to RL numbers.
I don't really believe that they intentionally put only 100% throttle and left out those 10% and thus crippled Spitfire performance.... it is much more likely that they simply stretched throttle scale from 0-100 instead from 0-110.
Anyhow it is easily checkable.

@ thanks R_Target for nice reference...
Note the antenna mast positioned in the wrong place (like on Ki-43), A6M has antenna behind the cockpit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Must be some wartime reference.

Xiolablu3
06-18-2008, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
http://i28.tinypic.com/2qus0lt.jpg

Thx for the page, I realise this is the 'official' manual, but I am quite sure in real combat pilots used it for more than 5 minutes at a time on all aircraft with WEP.

For instance, how often was a SPitfire IX or P51 chased by a group of 109s/190's?
Would you want to 'risk damaging the engine' or 'be caught by 5-6 109's/190's'?

I know which I would choose and I am pretty sure pilots in WW2 would choose the former too.

There was a Document released from the RAF complaining that the RAF pilots were using WEP boost at every opportunity, and not just in an emergency, and were creating a lot of work for mechanics. Maybe someone has that doc.

Xiolablu3
06-18-2008, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
SPitfire IX has always had a strange overheat system, hasnt it.

I too would love to see an explanation for it. The Spitfire V's seem to act pretty normal, but the Spitfire IX's with their auto-rads seem to overheat less than other aircraft for some reason.

I always wondered if its a bug which exists because the Spitfire IX doesnt go over 100% throttle, and therefore acts as other planes do at 100%. (For example a FW190D9 wouldnt overheat if it ran at 100% +WEP either).

I think cruise speeds need to be worked on in general in SOW series to make planes cruise more close to their real cruise speed.

At the moment for example the SPitfire IX's cruise speed is basically Full+WEP. Also other types can easily cruise at 104%+ WEP with no probs.

The big problem here is that possibly a WW2 DaimlerBenz or Merlin engine WOULD run for 1 hour at these settings but be on the verge of breaking up as the plane finished its sortie. Real WW2 pilots would not be able to run their plane to breaking point every sortie like we can with no worries. The mechanics would kill them after the 3rd sortie from having to rebuild the whole engine. Yes. But couple of things here... for instance Lavochkin 5 also can't move throttle beyond 100%.
And... it wouldn't be too hard to compare Spitfire speed or Lavochkin speed (LA speeds seems to be correct except from deviation in LA-5FN performance) in game to RL numbers.
I don't really believe that they intentionally put only 100% throttle and left out those 10% and thus crippled Spitfire performance.... it is much more likely that they simply stretched throttle scale from 0-100 instead from 0-110.
Anyhow it is easily checkable.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you misunderstand me, I am not suggesting that they crippled Spitfire performance at all, and I am sure they streched out the throttle differently, too.

However maybe the SPitfire IX was left with the overheat model from planes going to 110% and therefore never overheats?

Just a a guess...

R_Target
06-18-2008, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Thx for the page, I realise this is the 'official' manual, but I am quite sure in real combat pilots used it for more than 5 minutes at a time on all aircraft with WEP.

For instance, how often was a SPitfire IX or P51 chased by a group of 109s/190's?
Would you want to 'risk damaging the engine' or 'be caught by 5-6 109's/190's'?

I don't doubt that it happened. If someone had a lot of time and money, and if this sort of stuff is still even archived somewhere, they could research maintenance records for RAF and USAAF and find out how many were run past the limit, and how many were trashed. However, I'm fairly confident that RR Merlin didn't explode into a Horrido shaped fireball at 5 minutes and one second.


I know which I would choose and I am pretty sure pilots in WW2 would choose the former too.

I've only been in a couple life-threatening situations in my time, but you can be sure I poured on the "foot-WEP" for everything I had. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kurfurst__
06-19-2008, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The Spitfire will not go over 100%, I have often wondered why all other planes go up to 110% and if that has something to do with it overheating less...

Because this 100 - 110% is a rather German nomeclature for WEP. 100% was 30 min (ie. normal) power, 110% was considered an overload, or WEP.
It has no importance, really, apart from being calling it the 'appropriate' name.

Soviet aircraft, with expect the La-5FN/La-7 had no specific overload condition. Their modest outputs were allowed as long as oil/coolant temps were OK.

DKoor
06-19-2008, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
I've only been in a couple life-threatening situations in my time, but you can be sure I poured on the "foot-WEP" for everything I had. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I remember one occasion where I was out on the city streets and mortar were falling all around (city was bombed) I was 16 at the time, and I certainly feel the same way.

My body surely produced more "power" (speed) than I could possibly ever achieve under normal conditions (even with my best will to do so), I remember that feeling even today, you feel absolutely no weight in your legs whatsoever, just like if you're 'flying' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

That's something you remember for your whole life.

DKoor
06-19-2008, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I think you misunderstand me, I am not suggesting that they crippled Spitfire performance at all, and I am sure they streched out the throttle differently, too.

However maybe the SPitfire IX was left with the overheat model from planes going to 110% and therefore never overheats?

Just a a guess... Thanks for clearing it up.
Well, it is a distinct possibility but I feel that chance isn't really big.

IMHO it is more likely that is another example of game limitations in a way (same way as FW-190 has bar that wasn't there IRL).
Some fighters got the best out of these limitations and some get worse... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatCat_99
06-19-2008, 01:35 AM
Spitfire MkIX have unique overheat model, what you see in game is made deliberately.

FC

DKoor
07-04-2008, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
just the other day i was wondering if running your P47 at 101% will let water/meth run for a longer time than at 110%

DKoor, youre a glutton for testing punishment, whaddya say? :P http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I just did it... and as we already suspected, it's the 1 or 0 thing.
Another words, same time on water inj. @ 103% and same time @ 110% throttle.

Kettenhunde
07-04-2008, 07:22 PM
There was a Document released from the RAF complaining that the RAF pilots were using WEP boost at every opportunity, and not just in an emergency, and were creating a lot of work for mechanics. Maybe someone has that doc.



You mean this one:

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/7959/dowding1gh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/7959/dowding1gh2.f8cbe7520b.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=372&i=dowding1gh2.jpg)

The POH instructions are not "guidelines" except in the realm of fantasy. This is due to the fact the physics of airplanes dictates very low margins so following the procedures outlined in the POH is an essential element to flight safety.

While we may hear some spectacular stories from a few who got lucky, we do not hear from those that died as a result.

The FAA concludes that engine are the number one cause of accidents and improper use procedures are most likely going to be direct underlying factor in your death.

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/7418/accidentsxj7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/7418/accidentsxj7.5b1c65a328.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=399&i=accidentsxj7.jpg)

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1677/accidents2zu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1677/accidents2zu1.7cb8e7b75b.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=378&i=accidents2zu1.jpg)

All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
07-04-2008, 07:26 PM
Engaging over 100% throttle without WEP?


It is not only possible, it is common in aircraft.

Once again, the margins of flight are just that tight. Unlike your car which runs ~30% capacity, an aircraft engine's maximum continuous power is generally the 100% capacity point.

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/2826/ratedpower2gl1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/2826/ratedpower2gl1.1aa3958cf1.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=372&i=ratedpower2gl1.jpg)

All the best,

Crumpp

DKoor
07-05-2008, 04:45 AM
I asked in game not IRL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . But still thanks m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . Good to know that.