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Athosd
01-04-2005, 06:43 AM
I've been thinking of ways to economically simulate wind across the carrier deck without introducing obvious/glaring errors.
After all we do have the "chocks" work around in place - so a little fudging in this regard may be acceptable to improve gameplay.

What seems to be needed is a head wind of around 20-30 Km/h. But how could this be added to the simulation without causing harm? (given that wind in general will not be simulated in the IL2FB engine).

Oleg and his team may have already decided how they will attack the problem (Bearcat99 indicated they were looking into it) - but a little brain storming from the community might yet help.

On to some suggestions then - however humble:

1) Add a headwind value to the speed of any aircraft starting on a carrier.

Pro - easier carrier takeoffs with realistic loadouts.
Con - when to remove the value without causing obvious inconsistency?

2) Add a headwind effect to each carrier unit - the headwind would only be in effect within a certain distance of the carrier (~300m) and would only be added to aircraft moving in the same direction as the carrier (perhaps only those with gear down?)

Pros - easier takeoff and landing with realistic loadouts.
Cons - its a bit silly, also may be difficult to implement. There would most certainly be unintended consequences.

3) Give any aircraft starting on a carrier a brief boost in acceleration, right after releasing the chocks (maybe a one second delay). This boost doesn't have to be drastic - just enough to add 20-30km/h to the speed (over normal acceleration) within about 20m.

Pros - easier takoff with realistic loadouts. Less risk of inconsistency than my other suggestions (there is no wind effect as such - just the boost during takeoff from a carrier).

Cons - its an obvious workaround (but so are the chocks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Pretty ordinary ideas to be sure - anyone have some better suggestions?

Salute

Athos

Athosd
01-04-2005, 06:43 AM
I've been thinking of ways to economically simulate wind across the carrier deck without introducing obvious/glaring errors.
After all we do have the "chocks" work around in place - so a little fudging in this regard may be acceptable to improve gameplay.

What seems to be needed is a head wind of around 20-30 Km/h. But how could this be added to the simulation without causing harm? (given that wind in general will not be simulated in the IL2FB engine).

Oleg and his team may have already decided how they will attack the problem (Bearcat99 indicated they were looking into it) - but a little brain storming from the community might yet help.

On to some suggestions then - however humble:

1) Add a headwind value to the speed of any aircraft starting on a carrier.

Pro - easier carrier takeoffs with realistic loadouts.
Con - when to remove the value without causing obvious inconsistency?

2) Add a headwind effect to each carrier unit - the headwind would only be in effect within a certain distance of the carrier (~300m) and would only be added to aircraft moving in the same direction as the carrier (perhaps only those with gear down?)

Pros - easier takeoff and landing with realistic loadouts.
Cons - its a bit silly, also may be difficult to implement. There would most certainly be unintended consequences.

3) Give any aircraft starting on a carrier a brief boost in acceleration, right after releasing the chocks (maybe a one second delay). This boost doesn't have to be drastic - just enough to add 20-30km/h to the speed (over normal acceleration) within about 20m.

Pros - easier takoff with realistic loadouts. Less risk of inconsistency than my other suggestions (there is no wind effect as such - just the boost during takeoff from a carrier).

Cons - its an obvious workaround (but so are the chocks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Pretty ordinary ideas to be sure - anyone have some better suggestions?

Salute

Athos

Fliger747
01-04-2005, 07:09 AM
An interesting issue, one I hope they can address. The whole dynamics of operating around a carrier is tinged by both the actual and relative wind. For example, the approach path is quite different between the static and (fast) moving carriers.

One would hope that we can retain realistic aircraft and ship movements, and somehow find the savior of the mariner in the doledrums, WIND.

It's an ambitious quest, given some apparent limitations in the basic sim engine. These are clever guys, we wish them luck!

joeap
01-04-2005, 07:12 AM
Good ideas Athosd, although landing is not a problem for me....don't even need the pipper anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Loadouts are not an issue for landing as planes would generally be less heavy on their return and I think SOP was to release most unused ordnance before landing anyway.

How about this? Have a headwind effect when chocks are in...and for a certain amount of time afterwards, letting the effect gradually diminish to the default wind speed.

DRB_Hookech0
01-04-2005, 09:06 AM
Here is an interesting wrench to gum up the works....

Ever try to taxi a plane on the deck (i.e. turn) while the carrier is tooling along at 36 knots or so? The plane gets to about 45 degrees and then starts to creep back to head on into the wind. It takes unholy gobs of power to turn them and even then most times you do a modified ground loop and stand it up on a wing.

Also...ever been on deck, on a moving carrier, that decided to make a turn? If you dont have the chocks in....your going to slide off the deck into the drink.

So my question is this...

Is there some sort of wind associated as of now with a movign carrier or is this a enertia thing ?

joeap
01-04-2005, 09:43 AM
Well, there of course there is an apparent wind I suppose created by the carrier's movement. If the carrier is still there is none and I can taxi around on a static carrier. In reality carriers moved (pretty fast, why the so-called fast battleships were useful as escorts after being demoted from Queen of the Seas) and turned into the wind so if there was a wind already must have been pretty difficult for the crew to move around. Must be the same today I expect. Could be some inertia too as well I don't know.

IV_JG51_Razor
01-04-2005, 10:07 AM
The target value for wind over the deck during air ops aboard a carrier was 31 Kts. This means that the ship's captain would turn into the wind, and "make turns" for whatever speed he needed to give 31 Kts over the deck. This gave the airdales a consistant value to work with, both in taking off and landing. This also made the relative movement of the plane and carrier always the same.

Our problen now, with 3.03, is that Oleg has made some sort of adjustment to acceleration, or something else, in all the FMs such that the carrier planes can't quite cut it any more, although I'm confident he'll get it right soon. we should be able to load up a Hellcat with a belly tank and 100% fuel, taxi up to a point abeam the island, and take off without using water injection and without settling off the bow to struggle along in ground effect for a couple hundred yards. This could be done in 3.00-3.02. Of course, I'm referring to a custom built mission where the carrier's speed has been set to max (56Kph for Essex class).

The only "fix" I can think of that wouldn't require messing around with the game engine is to give all the carriers a boost in available speed, particularly the Jeep carriers. As for DF maps, carrier ops are hosed, always have been, and always will be without wind in the game, or moving ships. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Athosd
01-04-2005, 05:37 PM
Thanks Razor - 31 Kts is about 56km/h, flank speed for the big fast carriers in PF. With the carrier moving at that speed I have little trouble getting an F4U-1D airborne at 100% fuel plus 2000lb payload (from default spawn point).

Increasing the max speed of carriers has the disadvantages of being historically inaccurate (which may be enough of a turn off for Oleg) and not helping out with static DF ops.
Scenario designers could use the higher speed for the mission's take-off window and then return the speed to a realistic value for subsequent waypoints. It could certainly work - though I'd expect some finger pointing from naval purists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
DRB_Hookech0:

Here is an interesting wrench to gum up the works....

Ever try to taxi a plane on the deck (i.e. turn) while the carrier is tooling along at 36 knots or so? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that results from the airflow simulation. As far as the game is concerned your plane is moving at that speed and forces, against the fuselage and control surfaces, are being calculated which tend to push you back onto the carrier's vector.
So,IMHO,its not wind as such - just the flight model in action.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
joeap:

How about this? Have a headwind effect when chocks are in...and for a certain amount of time afterwards, letting the effect gradually diminish to the default wind speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sort of approach seems the best to me - a temporary boost on takeoff, restricted to carrier ops (moving or static, big help in DF servers).
This way none of the other game data is messed with - ships cruise at rated speed etc, and flight models aren't impacted.

As noted landing is less of an issue - trapping on a static carrier is harder but certainly not impossible (as opposed to launching with zero head wind).

Cheers

Athos

IV_JG51_Razor
01-04-2005, 10:01 PM
"Increasing the max speed of carriers has the disadvantages of being historically inaccurate (which may be enough of a turn off for Oleg) and not helping out with static DF ops.
Scenario designers could use the higher speed for the mission's take-off window and then return the speed to a realistic value for subsequent waypoints. It could certainly work - though I'd expect some finger pointing from naval purists."

True enough Athos, but we need to keep in mind that this is a flight sim, not a Naval sim. Bumping up the speed of the carriers would solve the problem without messing around with the game engine, which to me, seems the most expedient way of doing it. As it is right now, it definitely isn't even close to reality, much less historically correct as far as the aircraft's performance is concerned.

My only hope is that Oleg will undo whatever it is that they did in 3.03, or fix it, such that it gets back to where we were with 3.00 - 3.02.

Flydutch
01-05-2005, 03:44 AM
What about simply giving the A/C taking off from a moving Carrier (Mobile Airbase)A extra speed/ lift model value!

Isn't that what in reality is the effect on A carrier based A/C?

Say like, 10-15 seconds ( Sufficient time to take off and keep flying level)after full take off throthle Command the model value would gradualy drop to the original flight performance of the A/C

Now It is impossible for me to take off in A Corsair with for instance A heavy loadout Like Rockets, Droptank and napalm!
(Landing with a full tank is possible)

From Photographs off WWII prop A/C you can see as soon As the A/C reved up for take off its tail would lift horizontal.
In This sim this only happens graduly while speeding ove the flight deck.

Athosd
01-05-2005, 04:08 AM
So we have two main ideas here:

1) Provide carrier based aircraft with some additional speed or lift during takeoff - simulating the much desired head wind.

2) Increase the speed at which carriers can steam.

Increasing carrier speed certainly seems the easier to implement - however it would still leave DF static carriers as they are. Also current missions would not benefit - the feature would have to be edited in or made use of in future missions.

Adding speed/lift would be harder to do - but would assist in moving or static carrier take-offs and would be automatically present in existing missions.

Certainly curious to see how Oleg handles this issue.

Cheers

Athos

IV_JG51_Razor
01-05-2005, 08:14 AM
There's one other thing in this game that puzzles me. That is the crosswind that is present in stormy weather conditions. Even though wind, per se, isn't really modeled in the game, if you've ever noticed, you can turn 90 degrees on the runway during a mission with rain/snow, or thunder and lightning set and actually see an increase of about 10 or 20 Kph on your airspeed indicator! This "wind" goes away as soon as you lift off the ground, but as long as you are on the ground, it's real enough to give you a hard time while taxiing.

I'm really curious why Oleg didn't use this feature on the carriers, especially the CVEs. My best guess is that, as soon as you're off the deck, the "wind" goes away and you'd be left holding the bag off the bow of the ship with only the ground speed you had accumulated up to that point. Don't misunderstand me, the crosswind is still there, even aboard ship. I'm just suprised that Oleg didn't decide to put it on the carriers right down the deck. At the very least, it might have gotten the plane up in the air a little sooner, which might decrease any drag from the landing gear and give the plane a "leg up" in getting off the ship. This might have been a tremendous help with the static carriers on a DF map.

Athosd
01-05-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV_JG51_Razor:
There's one other thing in this game that puzzles me. That is the crosswind that is present in stormy weather conditions..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a really good point Razor - why wouldn't the carrier be heading into the wind in this situation?

I'm pretty sure the cross wind effect added for bad weather always blows from left to right on takeoff. Perhaps, as you suggest, it could be changed to a headwind for carrier ops without excessive recoding (and boosted a bit to be in the range 20-30km/h).

One side effect of adding such a constant headwind would be greatly increased difficulty in taxiing around on the carrier deck. But then, such movement would be required less frequently as there would be no need to turn around and go all the way to the stern for a standard takeoff.

Salute

Athos

karost
01-06-2005, 09:56 PM
Hi, I like to play Carrier ops in DF-Server like a midway's mission and now we have PF

but seem many friends don't happy for play this Carrier mission event he improve his skill for take off / landign on carrier with their favor planes

1. sine we hit fly button and not see anything forword , then we do the same thing that we did in VEF press 'B' break increase power to move nose to left or right 5-10 degree but ... each plane stay too close together and some of friends never play VEF,VOW,WEF befor so we lose 5-10 plane over carrier IF WE HAVE "PILOT HEAD MOVE OUT SIDE COCKIPT THEN THIS THING NOT HAPPEN ? "

2. this sim miss one thing important WIND MODEL yes we cannot set up wind direction wind speed from difference altitude in mission builder and what we have WE CAN NOT TAKE OFF WITH FULL-LOAD BOMB OR FUELD SAME LIKE A HISTORY IN DF-Server.


but we still happy about Carrier ops for COOPS and Pilot career http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

I/WE hope BOB project will learn alot from IL2's experience

S!

IV_JG51_Razor
01-07-2005, 08:06 AM
I think you are right Karost, we are just going to have to wait until BoB comes out to see some of the improvements to the game engine that will benifit carrier operations, like wind. I think PF has been a real eye opener for Oleg, and he will vastly improve on it once BoB moves into the Med, or Pacific. I believe we will see working catapults, more realistic arresting gear, and maybe even more intelligent AI......NAH, let's not get carried away! LOL