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anarchy52
06-12-2006, 05:20 PM
I've noticed that german 20mm seems less effective since the last patch. Especially on VVS birds (La-5, P-39 ...even Yaks). I've also noticed less structural failures in general.

I was flying ADW for a while and was amazed how little effect 20mm bursts have on performance of VVS fighters, especially P-39 (with it's legendary who-cares-about-pierced-engine-block) and La-5. It is as if it has 2 states:
1) not damaged
2) broken in half
It was also shocking to put 152 rounds into B-25 (I was flying FW-190) with B-25 continuing merrilly on his way...

Wooden wonders are tougher then jugs or tempests.

Anybody else notice that?

anarchy52
06-12-2006, 05:20 PM
I've noticed that german 20mm seems less effective since the last patch. Especially on VVS birds (La-5, P-39 ...even Yaks). I've also noticed less structural failures in general.

I was flying ADW for a while and was amazed how little effect 20mm bursts have on performance of VVS fighters, especially P-39 (with it's legendary who-cares-about-pierced-engine-block) and La-5. It is as if it has 2 states:
1) not damaged
2) broken in half
It was also shocking to put 152 rounds into B-25 (I was flying FW-190) with B-25 continuing merrilly on his way...

Wooden wonders are tougher then jugs or tempests.

Anybody else notice that?

WWMaxGunz
06-12-2006, 05:41 PM
Wooden B-25. Made in the same factory where wooden Spitfires come from.

Online shooting is subject to multiple connection disorders.
How is the damage to those planes offline?

anarchy52
06-12-2006, 05:46 PM
You see the hits, your squaddies see the hits, server acknowledges the hits USER <your callsign> STAT command in the console, enemy leaves a trail of smoke but it's manuverability is left untouched until his engine starts to lose power.

If I could ask for one new feature in SoW it would be a realistic no B$ damage model. I don't give a rats a$$ about moving busses in London.

No connection issues, up to 40 ppl on 128 slot server, 2 green bars, ping < 100. 50 or so sorties, my average hit rate was > 10%.

WWMaxGunz
06-12-2006, 06:08 PM
That is pretty good and everyone green makes for a nice coop.

But I think it would be best to check offline and make the tracks, then online with tracks
as well to see if there is a difference, which there is but needs to be made clear how much
kind of thing. I've wondered before if online has a simplified DM or not.

Between 4.04 and 4.05 there wasn't supposed to be anything but added planes yet I do feel
the whole flight is better in some way, more solid and that could be just from side effect
of bigger sim or there could have been some unannounced tweak in control parameters, some
tiny change that did not seem enough to make a note of. The base code was to that state
before FB just going by posts from Oleg and my experience with large code and PC's.

So was the 151/20's (I assume) adjusted down or not is going to take... well you know from
last time that hitting a hammer all around a nail don't drive the nail for two years while
hitting the nail still takes time to pound flush to the wood.

WOLFMondo
06-13-2006, 05:34 AM
I think its too effective. The Hispano 20mm in comparison seems too weak.

I don't mind really since I fly 190's 90% of the time.

Kurfurst__
06-13-2006, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:

It is as if it has 2 states:
1) not damaged
2) broken in half
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1, Hits with ordinary HEI shell with no much stuff in it..?
2, hit by Minegeschoss..?

anarchy52
06-13-2006, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:

It is as if it has 2 states:
1) not damaged
2) broken in half
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1, Hits with ordinary HEI shell with no much stuff in it..?
2, hit by Minegeschoss..? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No

F6_Ace
06-13-2006, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I could ask for one new feature in SoW it would be a realistic no B$ damage model. I don't give a rats a$$ about moving busses in London. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no..much better to spend time on non-items such as lapping waves on shores or buses.

I think you'll find that it's mainly VVS DMs that are the cause of the apparent 151/20 weakness. Oleg likes to make his VVS aircraft performance 'absolutely best case' and this must spill over to the DMs, also.

carguy_
06-13-2006, 03:57 PM
Since April I flew only 7 online sorties with 4.05 but I did notice the difference as opposed to offline 4.04m QMBs(which only I flew from April).


MG151/20 cannon shells act like they bounced off the target sometimes.B25 has always been too tough.You pop it full of holes in either spot and it flies regardless.

MK108 makes more internal damage than visual structure failures as winchops,parts falling off.Couldn`t believe my eyes when I hit a P51 with 3shells and all it did was make his controls unsuable.It looks like this - you fire - you see a big boom boom boom - then lotsa smoke - then you see a visually intact target - WTF??!

Vike
06-13-2006, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
MK108 makes more internal damage than visual structure failures as winchops,parts falling off.Couldn`t believe my eyes when I hit a P51 with 3shells and all it did was make his controls unsuable.It looks like this - you fire - you see a big boom boom boom - then lotsa smoke - then you see a visually intact target - WTF??! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry,the M108 make always huge damages.
Simply,the sim doesn't show all the damages (for prevent performance hit maybe?) but trust me,30mm shells work good. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Exaclty as you,OFFLine,the other day,i made a triple 30mm shot on P-51 which was like K.O. after that,but visually intact.

So,i approached slightly,slightly again,then i put a fourth MK108 shell right in it's below center: It explodes into pieces!

Indeed,i think the game gives something like "100 structural points" to each plane by example.
Then, every time you hit a plane,even when you see no damage on it,i really think it loses its "structural points" regularly.

We can make exaclty the same point about the tanks on the ground.One hit with a Bk37 kanon,nothing seems to happen to the tanks,then a second one and "kaboom" ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

For me the sim seems all clear concerning the DM,but yes,it probably lacks some more "special and visual effects" maybe... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

@+

HellToupee
06-13-2006, 08:16 PM
i was flying a b25 once, i put 121 rounds from rear gunner into a 190, mostly thru the engine and cogpit area only got light smoke, i eventually got a pk on him.

Musta been a wooden 190 :P

jermin122
06-13-2006, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I think its too effective. The Hispano 20mm in comparison seems too weak.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hispano is as powerful as 108, and its muzzle velocity is twice of the 108. Be sure!!

Once it took me 10 108 shells to bring down a P47. Don't forget that Russion fighters are made of holy woods from Russia. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

leitmotiv
06-13-2006, 08:36 PM
My favorite offline is a run at B-17Fs in a 110G with the belly pack twin MG 151s. I have noticed no difference since I started playing the scenario nearly two years ago: if you aim carefully, the battery of four 151s free-firing from that 110 is an airborne chain saw massacre. You can stand off at the limit of .50 cal range and rake the hapless 17 almost with impunity. The closer you go, the worse it gets for the 17. When you go back and examine your handiwork, it looks like Luftwaffe gun camera footage.

VW-IceFire
06-13-2006, 09:14 PM
Funny...I was feeling that 4.05 gave them a slight boost. I cut a LaGG-3 totally in half with an off angle deflection shot into his belly. I was totally surprised...particularly against a LaGG-3...bet he was doubly surprised because of the range and the angle.

JamesBlonde888
06-13-2006, 09:32 PM
Weakspot on most bombers seems to be the engines and wing roots. If that doesn't work you can always try ramming since there are unlimited planes waiting for you.

joeap
06-14-2006, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I could ask for one new feature in SoW it would be a realistic no B$ damage model. I don't give a rats a$$ about moving busses in London. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no..much better to spend time on non-items such as lapping waves on shores or buses.

I think you'll find that it's mainly VVS DMs that are the cause of the apparent 151/20 weakness. Oleg likes to make his VVS aircraft performance 'absolutely best case' and this must spill over to the DMs, also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enough of this conspiracy bollocks, many VVS fighters have not been upgraded with more complex DMs that's all.

WWMaxGunz
06-14-2006, 03:53 AM
Since the start, examination of tracks with Mk108 hits and arcade=1 shows that the Incendiary
shells make a big orange explosion but have no shrapnel. No high damage blast, just fire.
IRL they would not explode until immersed in liquid by special fuse but we get surface fireball.
Easy to mistake for MG shell. Ammo mix is HEIT - MG only, MG has shrapnel shown with arcade=1.

Those shells have different weights and initial velocities therefore different trajectories.
HEIT is 0.455 kg, 500 m/s and power 0.024 yet the big orange fireball.
MG is 0.330 kg, 550 m/s and power 0.072 (equivalent kg of TNT).
2/3 mass of HEIT will lose speed much quicker.

Up close it should make almost no difference but 200m you may miss with one type and hit with
the others on a small silhouette or if the shots are coming near a low or high edge. 1/3rd
meter, even less can make all the difference. Best thing is make the track and count the hits
and misses. This is something I found early on when trying to see how my gunnery was really
doing, where the shells were going and why the big explosions did so little.

anarchy52
06-14-2006, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
IRL they would not explode until immersed in liquid by special fuse but we get surface fireball.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was no such fuse.
Fuses were of 2 basic types: contact and delayed. Delayed fuses didn't set of the main charge immediatelly, but introduced a small delay - the idea was for the shell to explode inside the aircraft structure instead on impact.
Delayed fuses proved very effective force multipliers.

Another point of interest is the type of explosive used : LW used PETN mixture with very high detonation velocity having destructive power rating of 1.66 (TNT being rated at 1.0). However, I don't think that is modelled in the game.

Kocur_
06-14-2006, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Enough of this conspiracy bollocks, many VVS fighters have not been upgraded with more complex DMs that's all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And by whose decision they were left with 'less complex' DM? And why is it that 'less complex' is simply MORE DURABLE? In another words "VVS fighters have not been upgraded with more" practically means that they are tougher than should be. Not only in relation to other planes in the game, but history too.
Is it "conspiracy bollocks" that Yaks fuel tanks were made unburnable and left like that, while that bug was corrected for others, most famously Fw-190? Its been a few patches like that and I wonder if in 4.05+ I will see a fire from shot like chees, leaking like hell tanks in Yak-3 wing roots?

Kocur_
06-14-2006, 04:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
IRL they would not explode until immersed in liquid by special fuse but we get surface fireball.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was no such fuse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought so too for a while, but apparently there was such a fuse! It was called AZ 9501 and was a hydrodynamic fuse: it had oblique channels through which liguid applied pressure (by projectile movement) at some sensitive firing device. Presumably it had also contact fuse function, so it would go off after some delay even if didnt reach into tank.

I agree with rest of the post: exploding of HE projectiles on first cocntact was prevented by adding short delay. In case of German fuses it was achieved by replacing 'immediate' detonators (being separate unit from main fuse 'machinery'), with delayed ones.

F6_Ace
06-18-2006, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Enough of this conspiracy bollocks, many VVS fighters have not been upgraded with more complex DMs that's all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And by whose decision they were left with 'less complex' DM? And why is it that 'less complex' is simply MORE DURABLE? In another words "VVS fighters have not been upgraded with more" practically means that they are tougher than should be. Not only in relation to other planes in the game, but history too.
Is it "conspiracy bollocks" that Yaks fuel tanks were made unburnable and left like that, while that bug was corrected for others, most famously Fw-190? Its been a few patches like that and I wonder if in 4.05+ I will see a fire from shot like chees, leaking like hell tanks in Yak-3 wing roots? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correctamundo. It's convenient to just say, "oh, they just have a simple DM" but someone made a conscious decision to leave them with a simple DM...and thus at an advantage.

Couple that with the 'fanciful' flight performance of VVS and you have a package which can only be described as overmodelled drivel.

I wonder if CFS3 1% aircraft are so subject to blatant bias?