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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:10 PM
I have a friend who was a merchant marine in WWII. His ship was sunk and he went swimming in the cold Atlantic until rescued. Obviously he is an older man and we discuss history often at the local coffee shop.

Though he is greatly interested in military history, when I mentioned my "pastime" and the interest I take in revisiting (what a great word) the air battles of WWII on a computer, he smiles politely and we just carry on a different topic. Somehow, I think he thinks this is Walter Mitty-dom at it's very worst.

Somehow, I fear, I think many veterans would say we are all out to lunch and completely disassociated from the reality we explore vicariously through a computer screen.

I still sim-fly and enjoy it a great deal, but it does beg the question of whether those who were there would look upon us in a favourable light, exploring and understanding history more deeply than others, or just saddling up for the joy of the virtual kill.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:10 PM
I have a friend who was a merchant marine in WWII. His ship was sunk and he went swimming in the cold Atlantic until rescued. Obviously he is an older man and we discuss history often at the local coffee shop.

Though he is greatly interested in military history, when I mentioned my "pastime" and the interest I take in revisiting (what a great word) the air battles of WWII on a computer, he smiles politely and we just carry on a different topic. Somehow, I think he thinks this is Walter Mitty-dom at it's very worst.

Somehow, I fear, I think many veterans would say we are all out to lunch and completely disassociated from the reality we explore vicariously through a computer screen.

I still sim-fly and enjoy it a great deal, but it does beg the question of whether those who were there would look upon us in a favourable light, exploring and understanding history more deeply than others, or just saddling up for the joy of the virtual kill.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:18 PM
I once met a number of JG and RAF veteran fighter pilots through a virtual squadron I was part of, at the moment of truth I felt completely embarressed because of that background.

Maybe they saw us as a number of young men keeping history alive, but I felt absolutely nerdy...

After that my "virtual activity" dropped off sharply.

I am proud I was able to meet these men, but I wish it had been under slightly different circumstances (anything but simming).

Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

http:\\www.xs4all.nl\~rhorta\brother.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:24 PM
good topic.

Think it depends on the vet.

I've met some, and had a Uncle, who served and simply would not discuss it. Period.

On the other hand, I've met a few (air vets) who spoke openly and excitedly about their experiences.

Guess it just depends on their circumstances.

I just read a book by Arthur Bishop (Billy Bishop's son) who served as a Spitfire Pilot. It was about his experiences in the war.
He made it sound like 60 or 70 milk runs, 10 flights of absolute terror, but the majority of his war was non-stop fun and boozing in England.

http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Dilbert/Fist-Of-Death.gif


ALICE FOR MODERATOR!

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:25 PM
If those guys hadn't fought in the war we are all so interested in, then they too would probably share a common interest.
We are after all curious and analytical as a species.

I imagine that due to the fact that they actually lived through some horrible times, they would want to forget more than they care to remember.

S! Simon.
<center>

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg
<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:29 PM
I think initially these types of "sims" have value for getting a visual perspective and a limited idea of some of the mechanics involved in the events. They can also be a catalyst for further study. But, it still is in a "game" format and is "fun" which is far from how the events were experienced by the vast majority who actually lived through them.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:31 PM
>I imagine that due to the fact that they actually lived through some horrible times, they would want to forget more than they care to remember.


Yeah. my father-in-law's a bit like that. He was in the RAF, based in North Africa and Iraq in the war. He doesn't like to talk about it that much, but he does borrow my books and likes to read those. Flight simming he's not really into. I think it's a bit much for him really, at his age.

It all depends on the individual. We shouldn't feel guilty about the hobby; I think some vets are interested in it and appreciate our interest.



Message Edited on 11/09/0304:32PM by mikeyg007

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:38 PM
Come on guys, let`s get realistic here.

They faced, anger, fear, death at it`s worse. When they killed, they actually took away a human life, and they had to do it regularly.

The war was the begin all and end all. It was NOT a game.

We probably come across like pathetic school boys playing `pretend war` with wooden sticks. And who can blame them.

Of course we do this out of our admiration of these people and our quest to somehow `understand`, but we can NEVER understand unless we find ourselves facing DEATH in a war for real.

Sorry to burst the bubble.




"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:39 PM
Demonstrates the gulf between reality and a computer game.
I tend the to view something like FB as a technical exercise in programming graphics, sound, physics etc, the context of this sim is WW2, without context it would be meaningless, starfighter v starfighter? You'd have to be a bit sad to really think you were fighting in a war, wouldn't you? A sim like FB plugs into all that nationalism and history we've all been fed - so its ingenious for people to complain when the "my countries better than your country" flames begin - OK tully /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:40 PM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Of course we do this out of our admiration of these
- people and our quest to somehow `understand`, but we
- can NEVER understand unless we find ourselves facing
- DEATH in a war for real.
-
- Sorry to burst the bubble.
-

I don't think that anyone who's posted in this thread so far would disagree with you.

S! Simon.
<center>

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm).

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/ex1_soon.jpg
<font color="#000000">It's my attitude not my aptitude that determines my altitude.</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:45 PM
We have to remember that this is a game. Simply an electronic representation of historical events and machines. No matter how accurately Oleg and team gets the P-47 roll rate or the Bf-109 cockpit, it does not represent even a fraction of what the men, women and children who lived and died during this time experienced.

You are fooling yourself if you think that a flight sim can recereate anything other than the technical performance of a bunch 60 year-old planes. This is a great game, but that's all it is - a game.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:52 PM
Nobody will argue that this is just a game, but that it is a game is exactly the point.

The question is what vets would think of us playing it.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:00 PM
A former flight instructor of a friend's soaring club flew among the JG26 in the war and scored some kills against the RAF and USAAF. He flew the 109, the 190A and later the Dora at the end of the war. He faced all the horror of that conflict and got seriously wonded (burned).
He does not discuss his war career today and every time he mentions details of his time in the Luftwaffe he has tears in his eyes.

Like somebody already said: it's a matter of what kind of character you've got and what you have gone through.
Most pilots had nightmares even 20 years after the war was over. The problem in Germany was, nobody would listen to you if you wanted to share your been-throughs; everybody had enough problems to pass.
This is the basic problem of former soldiers, they cold not leave this time behind them.

And I think this is the reason why most of them would just shake their heads, just like the experienced pilots shook their heads when new pilots arrived from the flight-schools at the front which thought they could turn the happenings of the war over.

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.virtual-jabog32.de)

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig2.jpg (http://www.jg68.de.vu)

When once you have tasted flight,
you will always walk the earth
with your eyes turned skyward;
to where you have been
and to where you always want to return.


Message Edited on 11/09/0305:02PM by Bremspropeller

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:04 PM
I guess many of the WWII vets came home shellshocked & with PTSD because of what they had been through - especially infantry boys but I think many an airman too must have lost his nerve now & then. Back then people didn't talk much about things like that & it was not common to go & see a shrink unless you were hospitalized in a mental institution.
Some might think that we're all nuts spending hours doing this but others might find it interesting that we care about the history in which they took part. Having spoken only to my own grandparents who did not fight, their reaction was quite often a thousand-yard-stare & something like: "Yes, those were hard times..." or "Well, we just tried to move on, day by day..." & nothing more.

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:15 PM
Bremspropeller wrote:
- Most pilots had nightmares even 20 years after the
- war was over. The problem in Germany was, nobody
- would listen to you if you wanted to share your
- been-throughs; everybody had enough problems to
- pass.


Good point. USAAF/RAF pilots came home to celebration on salutation, not so for the LW-men...

We all agree war is horrible stuff, my grandfather got torpedoed twice during WW2, and he once got chased by black sheperd-dogs while escaping to Sweden. He had nightmares about it for the rest of his life, almost every night.

When people that have experienced these kind of things see guys like us talking about it in a "video-game" sense, some might compare it to their great-grandchildren playing
consoles.

Sims are great learning tools, no doubt. There's the action-fix, the "realism-fix" (the very fabric of geekiness itself) and the whole documentary-thing.

Loads of fun, and educating. Great stuff.

But if you took a veteran-pilot and showed him a 27-page argument about trimming, it would add greatly to his perception about "kids today".

But if you took the same vet and involved him in the development process (don't remember the names, must dig out manual) the outcome might be very different, as quoted in the manual.



http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=12664&img=believesig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:17 PM
Yeah kind of think some would laugh about this because well it's not like it's a life or death situation playing these sims. The element of fear is not there so I guess it's night and day lol. My dad is a Vietnam vet and could careless about some of these war sims and games I play.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:23 PM
Why should they care one way or another. As long as you both realize it is just a game and not real-life, is playing FB any different than playing Monopoly?

I may sound like a jerk, but I am trying to make the point that this game is far removed from what they went through that you can't begin to compare the two things. It represents such a small, small part of the WW II experience that any comparison to what the brave men and women who went through that time experienced is pointless.

I have the highest respect for WW II veterans (and any other veteran or civilian who saw combat or had to deal with its effects). But this isn't combat! It is nothing like combat. It is a game, a diversion for a few hours after work, nothing more than that. If a WW II veteran disapproves of people playing a game like this, that is sad. However, it won't stop me playing it and I won't feel the least bit guilty about it either.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:35 PM
i once had a chance to talk to a veteran USAAF Colonel, and asked him what he thought about flight sims , especially IL-2 and he thought it was a quite silly idea. he also noted that it wasnt a fun job to kill someone cause then you had those thoughts on your mind for the rest of your life, always wondering if God will forgive him for that....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg



http://www.dugg.ca/

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:40 PM
It is just like with veterans of other wars and with other games having to do with war.

Some would think it is silly or downright pathetic, some would have no problem with it but would not be interested in it, and some would not have a problem with it but would also be interested it.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:42 PM
This is definitely the best thread i've ever read on this forum.

My dad was also a vietnam vet, well, quite different from the triditional vietnam concept to most of you guys, he is Chinese and yes, China had a war against vietnam, the western world named it "Communists at war"(wanted to laugh but i couldn't)

My father retired as a PLA major but when he was in Vietnam he was still a lieutanent and his unit was sent deep into viet-territory. He was in the army artillery and relatively safer than the infantry boys, death still lingered near. The vietnam special task forces, militias, whatever could make a man get killed, even not in the front line.

He doesn't feel like talk into it, therefore, i never asked. The only thing I know is he said he was shocked and horrified, by what I know not, and dare not to ask either.



__________________________________
I/JG54_Melody
<img src=http://jackly.cpgl.net:8080//bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=23351>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:45 PM
I had meeting a USN pilot when I was looking at PC game magzine with article about FB, he was peek over my shoulder and see screenshot and said something that made me look at him and see how old he is and I had guessed that he may had in WWII so I asked him. He said he was USN Pilot from wildcat to hellcat. We just talk about how realistic flight like stalling and go spin if turn too hard and more. I aviod bring up "shooting other up" as he had good time. Finally, as I ready to go somewhere. he told me he is dying and will pass away anytime but he was very very happy to have someone talk about flying. I am glad I didn't make him upset about killing other and lost buddies. That's exact same thing I prefer not bring up subject about Vietnam war killing but will talk about flying F-4 and F-105 with my uncles.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:47 PM
If this game were truly realistic, as soon as you were killed the first time the game would un-install from your computer and you could not re-install it.

Maybe that's one reason vets take what we do with a grain of salt.

<center>Beebop-ProudBirds-VFW<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/230903-Beebop%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:53 PM
WereSnowleopard wrote:
he told me he is dying
- and will pass away anytime but he was very very
- happy to have someone talk about flying. I am glad I
- didn't make him upset about killing other and lost
- buddies. That's exact same thing I prefer not bring
- up subject about Vietnam war killing but will talk
- about flying F-4 and F-105 with my uncles.
-
- Regards
- SnowLeopard
-

A pilot either lives far longer than average people do thanks to his excellent body,

Or he may die young and early with his burning airplane.



__________________________________
I/JG54_Melody
<img src=http://jackly.cpgl.net:8080//bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=23351>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:53 PM
I think you could expect the full spectrum of opinion from Veterans of previous wars regarding this flight sim, and indeed any other game based on a recent conflict.

Personally, I think there is a postive aspect to it. Interest in FB probably leads you to find out more about WW2 as a whole..... and then you learn of and develop a deeper understanding of what happened and, the sacrifices that those who fought made. That can only deepen ones feeling of understanding and appreciation towards those who went to war.




"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

Message Edited on 11/09/0305:56PM by NegativeGee

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:55 PM
THis is a game to me. I play for fun as a hobby. When I meet veterans I talk about their expereinces and tell them about mine. You would be surprised how many old war vets love to talk about how we modern warriors do our business. So much has changed. And yet I love to hear about their expereinces... lest we forget.

<html>
<body>
<p align="center"><a href="http://www.ghostskies.com">http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif
</body>
</html>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:45 PM
WHen my Grandfather was still alive he liked to talk about his experiences with me as I was the only grandchild interested in the history. He used to take me to airshows and around other fellows he still flew with up until 3 years before he passed. He was a great man who never really talked about death, but more about the planes. He and I shared a passion for the "old prop jobs" and that meant a lot to me and him both. I always take great care to listen to whatever a veteran has to say, and greatly appreciate all they did for us. I know if he were still around he would probably have taken great interest in this sim, and would laugh at some of the more rediculous people here, but he would enjoy it that is for sure. We have to remember we are re-living an awful experience for many people through a game, if you enjoy it for whatever reason that is all that matters. But when it becomes an alternate reality for you and that is all that matters to you, then perhaps you should see someone. I feel the same way in Americas Army, whenever I see someone being all gung-ho who never even went through boot, I just laugh it off.
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

</center>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:07 PM
This is an intriguing thread. My father was radioman in a B-24 of the 15th AF. On his 24th mission, over Frankfurt, a flight of 109s took them head on and, in one pass, killed the pilot, engineer and two waist gunners. The fear, the unrelenting cold, the exhaustion must have drained these guys after months of combat. But the loss of close friends and tentmates, people you'd trained and lived with for maybe years...that must have been the most difficult.

He came home, started a family, built a house and took part in his community. But he would only answer questions about the war in one syllable responses. When I became a modeller and later, a simmer, he understood and was, I think, amused. Perhaps he knew I was proud of him and his generation, that this was one way to share a little of the experience. Later, I served in the Army, and still later my son married a USAF pilot (C5s), so the military has remained part of our experience. I admire today's pilots and their skills.

But my heros have always been guys in leather helmets and goggles.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:11 PM
Stop the press, the game is a far cry from reality? Jeez, here i was thinking i was sharing all the same experiences and emotions of a WW2 fighter pilot!! Get a grip.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:57 PM
My Dad flew Hueys in Vietnam, and he enjoys watching me play IL-2 or any other flight sims I have.

He is sometimes willing to talk about stuff he did in Nam, such as firing rockets at troops or at small enemy camps, he doesnt like to dwell on it though.

<table border=0 width=300 cellspacing=1 cellpadding=5 bgcolor=#404040><tr><td bgcolor=#FFFFFF align=center><big><big><font color=#FF0000>ß P51D Mustang!</font></big></big></td></tr><tr><td align=left bgcolor=#FFFFFF>http://airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/p51d-i.jpg Ӛ¥¤ * â²¥, ⥤ â ª³?¥ Შé. Ӛ ¯ ¥¶ â ?² *¥ ª ¤¨: ¯ â* ¤â¨¦¥*¨¥ ÷¥²¥é ? ç¤ â¨²¥ â ¥¯¸¸ª³. Ӛç¦*, Ӛ ¸¨ ¥²¤ ¨ ª ¦³²¿ ª³-² ?µ ¨÷*¨, * ¯³²ü ²¨ á²³* * ÷ ¤áü²¿ ² ª¨µ ¦¥ ¯ª ç ²¥¥é ¯?¨ç⤨²¥ü*²¨.  ç* é²¥: ¥¨ Ӛ ¤* ¦¤ ¸¨á¸²¥ü, Ӛ ² *¥ ¯?²¿².</td></tr><tr><td align=center bgcolor=#002080><big><font color=#FFFFFF>* ªé â ¨²?¥á¨²¥ü WWII?</font></big> (http://www.aeterna.ru/cgi-bin/maina.cgi?page=test0&link=000000:000003:00017S:000002)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:17 PM
Personally, I think , as prob most do, war is replusive, but aviation is just so dang cool.. plus wwii fighters are the coolerest. Its a conundrum Ive mulled about over and over and never seem to come up with a solution to justify my interest in one and my loathing for the other. So Ive stopped trying and just accept the fact that I am a conflicted hypocrit. I blame my daddy for taking me to see "The Battle of Britain" when I was 5. Been a plane freak ever sense.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 09:54 PM
My grandaddy fought with the US 24th infantry division in the Pacific during WWII.

I have spoken with him frequently and in-depth about the island warfare and "the way it was." His experiences in WWII are nothing short of epic.

He brought back with him a Japanese sword with a beautiful mother-of-pearl inlaid hilt, and has some very interesting original photographs of a captured Zero fighter.

He was once strafed by a Zero and the Zero was so close my grandad could see the pilots goggles and face. Grandad said he wasn't scared though because he could always out turn a Zero!

Much of my grandad's experience in the Pacific was quite brutal and sad of course, and he lost most of his friends.


<center><img src= "http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.arribat/stoffwjabo.jpg" height=205 width=385>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

British Air Marshall, Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:01 PM
I love the flying below 100ft, throwing rockets and bombs at troops on the ground.... In the sim that is.

In real life, I hate flying low, especially over areas of water, forest and non-landeble areas, like to have at least 5000ft below me, at least I get the chance to scream a little longer/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I take pride in a good shot in the sim.

I take even more pride of a well performed flight/landing in real life, can even be mad at myself for hours afterwards if I miss the tiniest thing on a checklist.

You can't really compare a game to reality and I wouldn't mention my experiences on a computer to veteran, then I'd rather talk about the weather.

They were there, they fought, some dide, some survived and no good has ever come from war, only suffering.

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 10:39 PM
Well.........Some vets surely wont like or aprove of ww2 sims
in any form for obvious reasons.
Other people dislike the whole idea of gaming or spending free time in a wastefull manor.
Yet some will enjoy games or sims and yet some might learn
something from them.

As u might know many on this forum are interested in aviation, even the historical aspect of it, and I would bet my head on that many here have gained knowledge or ideas (or ideas how to get it)from other educated forummembers.

And maybe a layperson can get an idea of some aspects of the life of real fighter pilots by simulating probable events that might have happened in airbattles in ww2.


Let me give u some examples:


1.Lets say u are new to online flying and happily jump in your plane and go.....suddenly your screen goes black...an ace saw u fly like blindfolded and shot u down.
...you've just got an idea what could happen to u if u had been there for real.( interesting iznt it?)

Later in your online career u know your simulated plane well and spot a plane below u that is flown in the manor of a person that has'nt a care in the world. Ofcourse u check around u and then dive on him and finish him of and get going homewards.....You've just got an idea how it could be to have the advantage of hight and acedom.
( Interesting...iznt it?)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hundreds of simulated situations can quite easily be made
testable to get some ideas and insight in variuos aspects of air and ground battles.


Perhaps the insight is more enhanced with a simulation than just sitting and thinking about it ?



So.... if one exercises ones brain a bit many seemlessly
wasted or unnessesary moments in life can be..... lets say
productive. It all depends on your line of thought.

My somewhat humble advice is to see all events and actions in a positive constructive way,......rather than the opposit. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:00 AM
Great feedback. What an erudite bunch we simmers can be.

For my part, I fly mostly because it's an easy, fun, colourful and interactive way to enjoy airplanes. I also enjoy the mock agressivity and "team spirit" of the us vs. them scenarios, and the ability to feel, however inadequately, the mechanisms of history and war.

It's also part of the triad of historical appreciation. All our perceptions of history and the wars are just that, perceptions. Books are by far the best source and the most disciplined way to learn. Television provides the colour and "proof" that it was the way it was. The flight sims provide the next level; the interaction that is unavailable in the previous two.

Vets might not appreciate the logic, but I'd like to think that although we may act naive about the true horrors and responsibilities of war by recreating war in a simulation, the books and the sims and the Wings episodes have kept us from being outright ignorant.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:12 AM
Agreed mr Beirut. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:24 AM
I think I agreed with you first Mr. Ob_Swe. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:27 AM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:32 AM
The one thing that I get constantly driven home about is that we cannot forget what happened. We know that western society seems fixated (well at least Canada, US, and Britain) on world war II. Innumerable TV shows, movies, and other forms of media have been all created in the name of recreating a part of this conflict.

Now while some of the context of the was is obviously lost on us...this is a game and the translation is going to loose something for us, however, I would argue fiercly that the game provides the impetus for something greater. For study and interest in history. The war was terrible and most who went through it (I have multiple family members alive and past away who experienced parts of it) have been forever changed but we still live in the shadow of that conflict and we should know and remember what it is about.

This game gives us reason to do that on more days than Rememberance day. And when they mention soliders who died at Dieppe or Stalingrad or in the channel or over the plains of Russia...through our experience know what they are talking about and can give meaning and signifigance to the events.

There's my essay on that subject http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 12:59 AM
I know I've mentioned this elsewhere, but can't recall where I posted it. My bro was a Vietnam Vet. He alsways talked about the funny stuff, but also occassionally takled about the horror. I left it at that. Many years later, the Game LoS Vietnam came out, and he enjoys playing it. I was suprised, furhter, that he bagan to open up more about his experiences. I don't prompt him much. Still, we are closer than we ever were as borthers because of the game. Another example, maybe more obscure, was a visit he paid me on his birthday. I knew he always wanted to fly, so I secretly signed him up for a week of flight lessons. He soloed in 8 days, never having controlled an AC. I asked hin if he had any trouble with airsickness. He just calmly said "I've been dropped into alot of hot LZs, and the pilots weren't too concerned with our comfort." He loved WW2 Fighters when it was fairly new, and he can't waite to play Call or Duty and, when it comes out, Men of Valor. He wasn't a WWII vet, of course, but he was infantry and experienced ALOT or action in 3 years. Maybe it just took time.

I wouldn't want to push my interests in simming on any vet, but I do feel it raises my respect for what they faced every day. I'm glad for the chance. And, as has been mentioned elsewhere, some vets do like these games and understand they are not the same as their experiences. And some, I've noticed, are glad we are want to remember them, if not glorify the horrors involved.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 01:58 AM
Hmm...The reactions of vets can vary. I've heard stories about some who were set down in front of IL-2 or other games.

Some wanted to go strafe and bomb ground targets, a few wanted to fight with some enemy aircraft they encountered.

Some just wanted to fly around, look at the cockpit and remember the times they got to fly a high power plane for fun

Others want nothing to do with it. I know of atleast one B-17 gunner who was sat down infront of Flying FortressII:The mighty Eighth. He was in the tail where he had flown, the Flak made him turn pale, and the nose crew getting bumped off made him get up and walk out.


So, what they think would depend on who you ask. My grandfather [A WWII B-24 crewmember] thinks i'm just a hooligan who needs to be put in a bomber and raked by cannon fire from 190's to get the real feel.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:54 AM
A friend of my grandma's was in the Navy in WW2. If I ask him about it, he goes very quiet and changes the subject.

I guess if we had been in real ww2 combat and seen terrible things happen we wouldnt want to 'revisit' it either....

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:28 AM
Little boys playing war probably doesn't make sense to men who saw their friends and comrades killed or blown to bits. The only ones who probably would like it are those that didn't see actual action I bet. I've met a few from other wars who like to talk it up, but to a man, they didn't see action. My dad who passed away this year would never talk about it. I don't think he saw much action (other than a fellow marine trying to knife him), but still he didn't like to talk (this from a guy who loved to bs)

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:32 AM
My Dad was in WWII with the 1st Infantry Division. He was in the first wave at Sicily and Omaha Beach. Unlike some veterans he doesn't mind talking about his war time experiences, he really enjoys it. Out of his five kids I'm really the only one who is interested in WWII, so we're very close. I've met quite a few of the other old guys from the Big Red One. I think they would be happy that we're so interested in WWII, and amazed at the zealousness of some of us.

Each year I used to go to the 1st Division Officers reunion with my dad, it was really quite moving. There's something indescribable about these guys. I was always sad that each year there are less of them.

DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:48 AM
I don't know what veterans would think of me flying a WW2 flight simmuation, but I do know one thing, it makes me think of them and what they went through.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:10 AM
I often wonder what my dad would have thought of our combat sims. He was a Canadian tail gunner based in England and he didn't say a word about his experiences until a few weeks before he died. One evening, I showed him the "Memphis Belle" documentary directed by William Wyler and he sat speechless through the whole thing. Years later, he said he would like to see it again but we never got around to it.

About his tail-gunning experiences, he talked about how the Americans convinced him to switch over to 50 cal mgs. and how one American gave him a tip: "wait 'till your target starts to wing over then let him have it." He reported seeing pieces break off one attacker in such a situation. He also chose to talk about how they would empty their guns on the many brick chimney stacks left standing while coming home from a raid and how they would strafe trains. The bomber would shudder with the guns firing as they passed over a train and as tail gunner he would be the last to receive the order to fire. He said he would squeeze small bursts at the cars in an effort to avoid hurting innocents and when the engine appeared he would open up on it and would sometimes see a cloud of steam if he hit it "on the button."

As a bush pilot with thousands of hours, I think he would have been impressed with the technology of our sims but I'm sure he wouldn't have had much to say about it in the context of real war.

OC

"You don't have the killer instinct" -- wife's comment after watching me in virtual combat.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:12 AM
Old_Canuck wrote:
- I often wonder what my dad would have thought of our
- combat sims. He was a Canadian tail gunner based in
- England and he didn't say a word about his
- experiences until a few weeks before he died. One
- evening, I showed him the "Memphis Belle"
- documentary directed by William Wyler and he sat
- speechless through the whole thing. Years later, he
- said he would like to see it again but we never got
- around to it.
-
-
- About his tail-gunning experiences, he talked about
- how the Americans convinced him to switch over to 50
- cal mgs. and how one American gave him a tip: "wait
- 'till your target starts to wing over then let him
- have it." He reported seeing pieces break off one
- attacker in such a situation. He also chose to talk
- about how they would empty their guns on the many
- brick chimney stacks left standing while coming home
- from a raid and how they would strafe trains. The
- bomber would shudder with the guns firing as they
- passed over a train and as tail gunner he would be
- the last to receive the order to fire. He said he
- would squeeze small bursts at the cars in an effort
- to avoid hurting innocents and when the engine
- appeared he would open up on it and would sometimes
- see a cloud of steam if he hit it "on the button."
-
- As a bush pilot with thousands of hours, I think he
- would have been impressed with the technology of our
- sims but I'm sure he wouldn't have had much to say
- about it in the context of real war.
-
- OC
-
- "You don't have the killer instinct" -- wife's
- comment after watching me in virtual combat.
-
-

Great Post.

Sometimes when I shoot a plane down in IL2, quite often actualy! I will look at the twirling wreck of flame and smoke that was once a Beautiful 109 .........just to see if a chute opens!

I think we all play this sim or seek this hobbie because its a large part history, and we are not blinded to what the those Men and Women suffered in this war. I think that in itself draws us back for more.

Playing are little fantasy Combat sim in some ways is a tribute to those who fought. ........and that makes 'em Hero's!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:17 AM
My uncle Paul is almost 85 and Like my dad and 3 other brothers, a decorated navy vet. He saw terrible action during the battle of the Coral sea.

His eye are beginning to betray him but he still gets in 4 to 6 hours of FB a week.

He likes Olegs game over the rest becase he says it just feels the best when he is in the cockpit.


He is very excited about the pacific maps. He doesn't fly to get some twisted sort of delayed "payback" but simply because he loves to "" See that other plane go whizzing by""

I think the real reason is because of something he said one time on a hunting trip. He said that after an attack when the all clear was finally sounded he would slump in his shoulder harness( he was a quad .50 gunner) and watch the cats over head, thinking " Man, if I could only been a pilot"........not that different from a lot of us I think.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:37 AM
I am a veteran. No, not of WWII or Vietnam, but of more recent history. Names like Qandahar, Kabul, Aden, Baghdad; these are the Paris's, Einhoven's, Berlin's, and Kursk's of my generation. These are the things my grandchildren are going to ask me about, much as I asked The Greatest Generation about in my not so distant youth.

I don't feel ashamed of playing games, because I've lived much of it. No, I did not live through the frigid cold of the Battle of the Bulge, or near misses from a Bf-109 while in a ball turret of a B-17; but I did experience the chill of the Afghan mountains, and the same worry for my brothers in arms that they felt.

I play this game, and several other games (computer or otherwise) for a multitude of reasons. For one, I enjoy them immensely. I can play without actually having to be miles in the air or in a foxhole. I play to honor that Generation of heros. I've often said that we're merely living on the backs of that Generation. But gaming also helps to put it into perspective. It gives you a brief chance to further identify with them. And in the case of strategic board games, it gives you a chance to learn from them.

Besides being an avid gamer on my spare time, I am first and foremost a student of history. I love, respect, and admire those who came and paid the price before me. I helped carry the torch. I don't think that I'm worthy of that torch because of what they did, I feel small, but I did the best that I could, and I think that in their eyes, I (we) did fine. And that makes me feel okay with playing my little games. And I think that most of those great men and women are okay with us playing our games as well. Because in a way, we're trying to "walk a mile in their shoes," even though those are some mighty big shoes to fill. Keep playing guys and gals...may it be a small tribute to those Great Heroes.

Semper Fi,

Red Russian

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:54 AM
Frankly, I know a lot of veterans and many were pilots. They really do not care about our "games" and frankly for the most part do not want to discuss their "horrors" and "nightmares". They quietly go about their lives and for the most part keep it to themselves. It is a pretty exclusive club and they do have their get togethers on a yearly basis especially the WWII folks.

I do not mention IL-2:FB or these forums...they would absolutely object to the whole mess...and probably have us all put away for frittering our lives away and ignoring our families.

Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:21 AM
As many has stated before, how a real veteran reacts depend on the veteran, what he or she actually experienced and on how the sim is presented. I have an analogous experience with the civilian part of the story I would like to share with you:

Apart from being a geek playing flight sims, I occasionally do "live role-play" (LRP). The Norwegian standard of LRP is very different from the rubber-sword ork-hunting you might associate with LRP in GB and America. The game I would like to talk about was an historical one set in occupied Norway 1942, where about 70 people played a small fishing village and a small German garrison with a handful of Russian POWs. The game lasted for a week, people wearing 1940's style clothing, working outdoors, eating herring and potatoes and living in a small hamlet with houses from the 40'ies. The LRP centred on the social conflicts between those that supported the Germans and those that did not. This was no an action game, the only shots being fired when one of the Russian prisoners tried to escape.

Coming home from that LRP, most felt that they had really experienced a small slice of living in occupied Norway with hunger, black-out, the ban on radios, the front of silence against the Nazis, the hard work etc. However, trying to share this with old people who had experienced the German occupation was hard. The experiences of youth were in a way to sacred to them. The occupation had been their formative years, what made them who they where. In their own mind that experience made them unique, and someone trying to tell them they had at least an idea about how it may have felt was not welcome at all.

I believe some of the old veterans might feel in the same way. They are getting old now; and the turmoil's of the war might their greatest memories. If you really tried to get into the feeling of exaltation and dread while playing the game, flying like you would fly the real thing, you might for a few minutes actually feel what a combat pilot would have felt. Trying to relate this to a veteran, it would take a great man to admit that their own memories of war were not unique to them.

And of-course, FB is just a game. It is a good game, and beautifully made. Still, we will do well to remember the old Roman proverb: War is beautiful only to those who have not seen it.


Petter B¶ckman
Norway

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:23 AM
tascaso wrote:
- Frankly, I know a lot of veterans and many were
- pilots. They really do not care about our "games"
- and frankly for the most part do not want to
- discuss their "horrors" and "nightmares". They
- quietly go about their lives and for the most part
- keep it to themselves. It is a pretty exclusive club
- and they do have their get togethers on a yearly
- basis especially the WWII folks.
-
- I do not mention IL-2:FB or these forums...they
- would absolutely object to the whole mess...and
- probably have us all put away for frittering our
- lives away and ignoring our families.
-
- Happy hunting and check six!
-
- Tony Ascaso, RN
-

Hmmm... - maybe it is so but Oleg Maddox has been in contact with a few vets - why don't we ask him about the guys who helped him testing the sim? They might be willing to tell us something about it.



S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 09:56 AM
"Bumpsadaisy"
"You can teach monkey's to fly better than that!"



attackattackattackattackattackattackattackattack

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:07 AM
Well, "Lemmings" was still an enjoyable game, even though your average lemming probably wouldn't get it ...

cheers/slush

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Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 10:13 AM
Thnx mates for your inputs in this matter.
I must say this thread got quite interresting.



One of the things that really interrests me is this simulation biznez. It seems humans in all times had a need for reconstructing and simulating past and future events.


Nowadays we have simulations all around us in all fields.

Almost every scientific institution are making simulations of some sort. and even buildidngs , environments and streets and traffic are simulated before they are planned and built.

Its even possible to simulate long extinct lifeforms with moving 3d computermodels. Today the dinosaur models are a bit silly and make unlikely movements but just wait a few years.......ohboy this simthing is going to be fun.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:08 PM
Slush69 wrote:
- Well, "Lemmings" was still an enjoyable game, even
- though your average lemming probably wouldn't get it
- ...
-
- cheers/slush
-


This made me laugh hard. Thank you.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 05:16 PM
MoPai wrote:
- Personally, I think , as prob most do, war is
- replusive, but aviation is just so dang cool.. plus
- wwii fighters are the coolerest. Its a conundrum
- Ive mulled about over and over and never seem to
- come up with a solution to justify my interest in
- one and my loathing for the other. So Ive stopped
- trying and just accept the fact that I am a
- conflicted hypocrit. I blame my daddy for taking me
- to see "The Battle of Britain" when I was 5. Been a
- plane freak ever sense.

hehe, I feel exactly the same, except I don't consider myself a hypocrit for my interest in the war, because I try to avoid casting any judgements on whatwas "good" and what was "bad". war is repulsive, but IMHO taking an interest in it has nothing to do with fighting in one. Just because you like studying wwii doesnt mean you like war... I don't want to kill people and cause suffering and hate.
I blame my daddy too for showing me TV documentaries about the war in Africa at the same age. I can remember very clearly sitting in the living room with him and seeing a panzer (I think it was a pIV, with a stubby gun) on tv and him telling me "see, these were the nazis". Been interested in wwII ever since.

Coming back to the topic, my grandfather was a czech that emigrated in 1938 (to escape the nazis), went thru poland and aboard a ship to france (escape was not easy, he told me he was mostly very hungry). then he joined the armée de l'air as a fitter, but did not see combat duty as he was based in Pau, near the spanish borded. He then escaped to britain and served throughout the war as a fitter in a czech squadron (forgot the number, think it was 310 or something). He felt open to talk about it, as he never saw any front-line combat but participated in it. He served in the BoB, later at Duxford in the same sqadron as Douglas Bader (said he was an arrogant *sshole that cursed all the time, but he felt sorry for him because he had to struggle with his legs, and didn't like being helped in the cockpit), then in southwestern england, the spits he was repairing often flying to the ports of occupied france in the bay of biscay and brittany.
Can't ask him about how he feels about flight simming though, he died a couple of years ago.

btw, he was very upset when i said i thought the sinking of the bismark was mainly due to chance (swordfish torpedo hitting the rudder)... that was a bit tactless of my part, but i was very young and did not realise how my grandparents felt about it, struggling to eat then suffering from the uboat war (the civvies really had a crap diet then in war-time britain, i still have all the leaflets they kept from ration books : "Save sugar : use sultanas !!", lol...)