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megalopsuche
08-03-2009, 09:06 PM
"BnZ = Ban"

Yes, that is what I saw on a server today. I'm not going to say which one. It's their sand box and they can have the rules they want.

But there are a number of things I find disturbing about it:

1. The only kind of BnZ that is worth discouraging is the kind that is a negligible threat to a pilot with half-decent SA. We've all seen them: they blow one pass, extend 5km out and come back many minutes later to rinse and repeat.

2. The kind of BnZ technique that might motivate such a rule would be better described as expert energy fighting. The pilot who feints a gun pass to cause his opponent to enter a break turn and lose energy; he extends no more than 1km from his opponent as he works the angles; finally he converts his energy advantage into a killing shot. The victim feels helpless and complains, and hence the rule against "BnZ."

3. This server has a lot of mediocre pilots who blow the merge trying for a low % head-on shot. If they really wanted to promote gentlemanly fights and the art of ACM, by all means make a rule against the head-on before BnZ.

4. Shall we all fly Spitfires now?

...very surprised.

danjama
08-03-2009, 09:16 PM
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

SeaFireLIV
08-03-2009, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

Still don`t make it right in my humble opinion. That`s like breaking somebody`s legs because he can jump higher than you.

na85
08-03-2009, 09:27 PM
Haha yeah suffice it to say there remain some elements of the community who think it's "unfair" to dive on an opponent from above.

These are the guys who call you a coward when you extend and run, demanding that you TnB with them.

danjama
08-03-2009, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

Still don`t make it right in my humble opinion. That`s like breaking somebody`s legs because he can jump higher than you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it doesn't make it right i also disagree with it. It's ridiculous. But it's still the truth.

idonno
08-03-2009, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
"BnZ = Ban"


Over in the Warbirds flight sim community there is a term that explaines this; Quakebirds.

WTE_Galway
08-03-2009, 09:53 PM
haha

people that try and turn fight in late war hotrods that rarely if ever did it in real life

some things never change

VW-IceFire
08-03-2009, 10:12 PM
I believe we've ridiculed that particular server before. Yes its stupid, yes it makes no sense, and yes its their server...so whatever. So long as it doesn't spread!

Stiletto-
08-03-2009, 10:18 PM
Just bring your Chaika and rip them all to shreads. Then go find a real server. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
08-03-2009, 10:18 PM
Mudhen Ranch for noobies. Why bother when there's no sport in it?

Freiwillige
08-03-2009, 10:40 PM
Lets face the fact that the majority of players have no real concept of the history that they are playing with. Thoughts of real tactics, Wingmen, organization and objective are all uninteresting and out of touch.

They could care less that American LA-7's never shot down German KI-43's.

Its a game to most and a simulation to some.
Take it for what its worth and move on or skip online all together.

h009291
08-03-2009, 10:48 PM
Spitnoobs forcing you to turn and burn flying a 190 no doubt ....

Waldo.Pepper
08-03-2009, 11:23 PM
Its a game to most and a simulation to some.

Too true, and this is also the saddest thing I have ever read about Oleg's masterpiece.

megalopsuche
08-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

If you read the beginning of my post, you'll see that you didn't. I made a very clear distinction between their right to have their own setup and my opinion of it.

Anyway, I'm glad to see there are some like minds here. I was just so surprised to see it I almost thought it was a joke.

Fork-N-spoon
08-04-2009, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

Still don`t make it right in my humble opinion. That`s like breaking somebody`s legs because he can jump higher than you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the six or eight years that I've played online, I've dealth with your very same problem. In the early days of onling gaming, it was easy pickings as nary a dandy lad boomed and zoomed for fear of being called a nancy boy. I'd simply like to say Salute! I near soiled myself when I saw what you wrote about breaking a man's legs... That was spot on!

na85
08-04-2009, 01:11 AM
On some hyperlobby servers, the admins think that using BnZ tactics are cheap, and ban players who attempt to use BnZ tactics.

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 01:33 AM
Let them have their server.

I never even seen or heard of a server like that.
IMO, there are rules on servers that cater to the members so i don't see why this would be any different than that.

I can't say i'd play there, only because i use all tactics in flying, and i could see me winning a fight, and whether i'm BnZing or not, someone could say i did, and.;@#$%/syntax error..
There's usually no warning, so finding out what i did would probably lead to some trivial argument, that when widdled down to its finer points, really means that people are just sore losers.



I play this game and get what i can out of it, but like any other game, there's only so much BS i cant take.

There's other servers and too many other games/sims.

na85
08-04-2009, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
What are BnZ tactics

BnZ = Boom n Zoom.

It's where you dive down on the opponent from above, with high speed and shoot him (the boom) and then you use your speed to quickly get away from him and gain your altitude back (the zoom).

If done properly, your opponent really has no chance to fire back at you unless his aircraft is equipped with turret-mounted guns.

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Fork-N-spoon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
Their server, their rules.

Sorry to break it to you...

Still don`t make it right in my humble opinion. That`s like breaking somebody`s legs because he can jump higher than you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[...] I near soiled myself when I saw what you wrote about breaking a man's legs... That was spot on! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, I dislike the very same comment because it's so false. Banning BnZ is like feather-weight boxers sending away heavy-weight guys from their ring. Or, why do you guys think there are different engine categories in motor racing? 150cc banned 500cc s from their racing event - is that so bad and surprising?

Their server, their game, their pleasure.


@Tuphlandng: BnZ = "Boom and Zoom", in other words, "hit and run" type of attacks, typically executed by climbing high, then diving on a lower opponent, firing and climbing out of reach quickly again. A rather safe and predictable combat mode, but it takes it's own skills, like patience (to climb), situational awareness (to spot enemy below), and excellent gunnery (to hit during the short firing time).

na85
08-04-2009, 02:11 AM
What do I think?

I think that if we play this game to recreate WW2 air combat, then all's fair in love and war. Use whatever moves/tactics/strategies are most suited to the situation. Play to your strengths, not the enemy's.

Of course it's not 'fair'... but then again who said it has to be fair? I don't want a fair fight. I want to shoot the other guy down as fast as possible.

Banning bnz is silly.

WTE_Galway
08-04-2009, 03:00 AM
meh .. if they want to fly tight circles in planes not designed for it let them ...


The most amusing thing is if people try and turn fight in planes designed for it (Gladiator/CR42/I16/I153/p11c etc) this same crew ridicule the "crap planes" and act all macho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gadje
08-04-2009, 03:16 AM
In truth pure BnZ is pretty easy to deal with if you know where your attacker is.

For me a bigger problem is when your attacker knows when and how to use his E advantage and trades it for angles to get behind you for a much simpler, effective shooting solution.

I suspect that type of E fighting would be regarded as BnZ on that server too.

I think rnzoli is right however.... these servers are the equivalent of the Fun fair bumpercar end of motor-racing and F1 driver skills are not needed or welcome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BillSwagger
08-04-2009, 03:45 AM
whats next, scissors = ban??

i dont see what the problem is. If you can turn, you can avoid a BnZ quite easily.

I suspect it has more to do with quality of play.
They want to enjoy playing and fighting, with out the unexpected blind side from a BnZ attack.
Also, its probably a sever that pushes for the fight rather than the strategy.
I've heard of servers that limit flight time so you are forced to fight. Might even be the same one.

Just cause you TnB doesn't make you this great pilot, or any less skilled.
This game has a learning curve but many times the bouts can go either way depending on who has the initial advantage. Its really not that difficult, unless you make it difficult by putting yourself in a difficult situation.

On another note, I wouldn't get caught trying to prove my manhood with this or any other game.
I think people just play and joke around, and talk some smack from time to time.
If you aren't having a good time then why even play.

staticline1
08-04-2009, 05:12 AM
I've always got a kick out of some of those odd rules but then to each their own. Personally I'll stick to the rules of the dogfight.

Rule #1: There are no rules, shoot down your opponent any way you can. Its the way it was done IRL, why sugar coat it now. Just leave the parachutes alone.
Rule #2: Refer to rule #1.

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
i dont see what the problem is. If you can turn, you can avoid a BnZ quite easily.
You can avoid being shot down, but you cannot defeat your opponent because he flies back to the clouds in microseconds. That's the problem. Avoding does not equal winning.

whats next, scissors = ban??
Good question, have you tried to think that through and answer it? I suggest all the "BnZ = the high heavens of aerial combat" people to set up a server, with the rule "TnB = ban" and watch the result. I know the outcome, but you wouldn't believe me, so please try http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by staticline1:
I've always got a kick out of some of those odd rules I am not sure, are you being sarcastic? Banning means you get kicked from the server for good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

J_Weaver
08-04-2009, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:Well, I dislike the very same comment because it's so false. Banning BnZ is like feather-weight boxers sending away heavy-weight guys from their ring. Or, why do you guys think there are different engine categories in motor racing? 150cc banned 500cc s from their racing event - is that so bad and surprising?

Their server, their game, their pleasure.



It really depends on what your in it for. The gamming or because your a history and avaition buff. You make a good point for the gammers in IL2.

However, I and many others are not gamming or simming Nascar, F1, or boxing. We're simming WWII air combat. From that standing point, yes, I think its pretty stupid to restrict historically correct tactis.

But, I think we can all agree that its "their house, their rules." If ya don't like it, play elsewhere.

AllorNothing117
08-04-2009, 08:31 AM
There server there rules...

If you don't like it don't fly there simple. Obviously it's ridiculess and I would imagine all the pilots there are after a more arcade experience. But if thats the case then they can go play Ace Combat 6 and I won't miss 'em.

megalopsuche
08-04-2009, 08:40 AM
What you will never see is "TnB = Ban." 190 pilots do not complain that Spitfires ought not to turn so much. Anyone who has taken up the challenge of high wingloading aircraft that do not easily saddle up on a bandit has accepted that there are things they can't do with it. It's a prerequisite for getting in the cockpit. Yet the pilots of low wingloading aircraft refuse to accept that good horizontal turning comes at a price.

megalopsuche
08-04-2009, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
Obviously it's ridiculess and I would imagine all the pilots there are after a more arcade experience.

That's the strange part. The rest of the server settings are more challenging than servers that aim at history, e.g. skies of valor, which I would love if only they'd disable the external views.

K_Freddie
08-04-2009, 08:48 AM
Come on man... Name the Server, so we at least know which one to avoid... OR maybe we can all get on it.. and BnZ the owner .. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

staticline1
08-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by staticline1:
I've always got a kick out of some of those odd rules I am not sure, are you being sarcastic? Banning means you get kicked from the server for good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a little sarcastic. I understand the whole banning thing but really what I find somewhat odd is making the rule that 1 of 2 main types of dogfighting is not allowed. Effectively you can then kiss off about half of the late war aircraft. What's next no cannons, bombers can't fire back? All their are doing is limiting their piloting growth and skills, too bad.

X32Wright
08-04-2009, 09:26 AM
I started a similar thread a while ago and my feelings about this issue is still the same:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/1341094456/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1341094456/p/1)

-"banning BNZ is like banning fish for liking the water. It is about as bad as banning TNB (Turn and Burn) in a server!"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

na85
08-04-2009, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Come on man... Name the Server, so we at least know which one to avoid... OR maybe we can all get on it.. and BnZ the owner .. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Haha that would be awesome.

DuxCorvan
08-04-2009, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
Banning BnZ is like feather-weight boxers sending away heavy-weight guys from their ring. Or, why do you guys think there are different engine categories in motor racing? 150cc banned 500cc s from their racing event - is that so bad and surprising?

Oh well, if only the Japanese had banned BnZ tactics from air war, they could have won it. How unfair the Allies were so unsportsmanlike! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TheFamilyMan
08-04-2009, 10:49 AM
Nothing new about this... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511075486?r=5701038486#5701038486)

I've yet to really get down the BnZ gunnery (split second deflection burst), and it's nearly impossible to practice against the AI since they are always all-seeing and all-knowing. But it's a blast when you find that unsuspecting victim 'just flying along', which BTW IRL happened quite frequently.

MD_Titus
08-04-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
What are BnZ tactics
energy tactics. achieving and maintaining an energy advantage over your opponent, either in speed or in altitude (potential energy), generally fighting in the vertical rather than lateral (turn and burn).

basically, get higher than them, dive down as described, shoot (boom) them and zoom back up. done properly you can be pretty much untouchable, and in some planes it is the only way that you can fight and survive, such as in 190's, p-47's.

fw-190s are perfect for it, good roll rate, good rudder authority and the controls remain responsive at high speeds, so tracking a breaking bandit is not too hard, compared to say a 109 where the controls stiffen as your velocity increases. you do need to work on your long range deflection shooting though, and in a 190 you will often be firing when the target is hidden under your nose. use the force.

and there is nothing more satisfying than the wails of the persecuted - "come down here and fight you coward" - as you float above them, dive down, pick them off and zoom away again.

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Banning BnZ is like feather-weight boxers sending away heavy-weight guys from their ring. Or, why do you guys think there are different engine categories in motor racing? 150cc banned 500cc s from their racing event - is that so bad and surprising?

Oh well, if only the Japanese had banned BnZ tactics from air war, they could have won it. How unfair the Allies were so unsportsmanlike! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

J_Weawer already pointed out, these guys couldn't care less about history... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's a fun server and if their definition of fun is "no BnZ", what's worth hundreds of posts on this subject? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It's like complaning "ahhh, I saw a Corsair with Russian marking, ahh, ahh, how bad, how strange, how arcadish, how poor pilots these guys are, should we teach them a lesson and invade their server".... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
Nothing new about this... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511075486?r=5701038486#5701038486)
So what happened? It seems that the "no BnZ" rule is pretty long standing and the servers are popular, but I don't know about any server which would keep the "no T&B" rule. There is a reason for this, huh?


I've yet to really get down the BnZ gunnery (split second deflection burst), and it's nearly impossible to practice against the AI since they are always all-seeing and all-knowing. But it's a blast when you find that unsuspecting victim 'just flying along', which BTW IRL happened quite frequently. Rookie AI will happily fly along the same way, it's good practice. The problem is that the defensive manouvers of Average/Veteran AI is too predictable.

SeaFireLIV
08-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Banning BnZ is like feather-weight boxers sending away heavy-weight guys from their ring. Or, why do you guys think there are different engine categories in motor racing? 150cc banned 500cc s from their racing event - is that so bad and surprising?

Oh well, if only the Japanese had banned BnZ tactics from air war, they could have won it. How unfair the Allies were so unsportsmanlike! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

J_Weawer already pointed out, these guys couldn't care less about history... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's a fun server and if their definition of fun is "no BnZ", what's worth hundreds of posts on this subject? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It's like complaning "ahhh, I saw a Corsair with Russian marking, ahh, ahh, how bad, how strange, how arcadish, how poor pilots these guys are, should we teach them a lesson and invade their server".... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got a real chip on your shoulder, haven`t you? We are right. It`s not even about arcade or noob, it`s about banning ONE FORM of COMBAT STYLE versus ANOTHER.

It`s not even about engine type you can B&Z in just about any airplane. I`ve done it even in I16s! All you need to be is high and dive- simple. By those stupid rules if you even accidentally dive on someone below you, you`re banned.

And my analogy is good.

Now go play on that server since you love it so much and shut up before I get really angry with you.

SILVERFISH1992
08-04-2009, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MD_Titus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
What are BnZ tactics
The Question I was asking wasn't about tactics but the term BnZ the acronym for Boom and Zoom.
My very first Thread was "I am new really new"
I may have sum stupid questions and I only ask them because I want to know the answers. Not to be a dip. Any and all tactics I believe are fair except for crying no fair. I still get ripped up by AI and I right missions so I get ripped up by AI. Victories are great but we all learn from our mistakes not our victories. Like I said before I like a challenge and to ban a tactic that is in the training Manuel for this game denies the realism that I think we love about this sim. Again I do apologize for my stupid questions. The sad part is I have a bunch more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its OK, I like stupid questions. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
08-04-2009, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Now go play on that server since you love it so much and shut up before I get really angry with you.

I never said I liked that server, but I think I understand where the rule stems from. That doesn't make me "love" that server, nor their players http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And yes please, become angry with me, because I suspect all BnZ cowboys, who love to hunt for easy prey and hone their skills on noobie servers, are the ones childishly upset by not being able to exploit the shortcomings of the players on that server, because they banned one form of combat tactics in favour of their regular TnB crowd.

Once again, if you don't like this rule, make an oppostite type of server with "TnB = banned" rule and see how long it lasts, and how many players will enjoy flying there.

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-04-2009, 03:34 PM
So called B&Z was the preferred method of fighting for any pilot in any plane. Those virtual pilots who fail to learn this skill will never be any good in virtual combat.

They much rather try to tell people how to fight. Why not have them fight at all. Hey! If its your sever just make all the guest fly in a straight line so you can kill them. This is supposed to be a combat simulation not an arcade first person shooter.

IMHO people who create such idiotic rules have no place hosting a server representing this great game. But let the noobs (and I mean it in the worst sense possible) have their way and simply find another server. Flying there will do you no good whatsoever. It will only give you bad habits.

Find a server with mature, educated individuals who apparently have a clue about WW2 aviation.

FYI so called T&B is a thing of hollywood fantasy. No combat pilots would engage in such actions witnessed online. Constant turning low and slow is no combat skill. B&Z is nothing more then proper use of energy and the proper way to dogfight. Whiners who know no better simply gave it a label. Those who find they can not defeat such a method should really find another game to play and not consider themselves simmers.

S!

mortoma
08-04-2009, 09:44 PM
We'd not have ever read of the successful exploits of the AVG "Flying Tigers" if they had not boomed and zoomed the agile Ki-27's and similar aircraft.

The Japanese pilots even had Tokyo Rose make fun of the so-called cowardly tactic on her radio broadcasts. But hey, if they would have tried to turn with the Japanese and not been so "cowardly", they would have been even worse; stupid and dead!!

rnzoli
08-05-2009, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
FYI so called T&B is a thing of hollywood fantasy. No combat pilots would engage in such actions witnessed online. Constant turning low and slow is no combat skill.

I agree on you that speed and altitude was the PREFERRED way (due to safety).

On the other hand, you are completely wrong on the fantary part, because BnZ wasn't the ONLY way to fight. Even in late 1944, P-51 pilots did several turns, low and slow, sometimes with flaps down, cutting throttle etc.

I think this is a good source to read: Official P-51 after-action reports form ETO 1944-45 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html)

Excerpts on turning:


1st Lt. Hubert Davis, 19 March 1945, 78th FG "We had made about two 360 degree turns, when I was able to get in a burst at 90 degrees."
2nd Lt. Richard I. Kuehl, 2 March 1945, 78th FG "Then I tightened up my turn and was closing on the 109's tail when he cut his throttle and stayed in a left bank. I dumped flaps and he leveled for a minute and then went into a left bank again. By this time I had slowed down enough to pull in behind him."
1st Lt. Charles S. Coe, 26 November 1944, 339th FG "We started a Luftberry and circled for several minutes before I could get into firing position but when I did open up I saw strikes."

Once again, it was not preferred, but it did happen often, far more often that the BnZ jockeys dare to admit.


IMHO people who create such idiotic rules have no place hosting a server representing this great game.
Wow. Oleg himself gave the possibility for arcade options, so what? IMO Frankenplanes and other low quality mods are a greater disgrace to this game than any strange or stupid server rule...

BillSwagger
08-05-2009, 03:00 AM
BnZ is just one tactic.
Swoop in fast, let out a burst, then fly away.
that's all it is.

Energy fighting encompasses many more tactics which blend the use of BnZ and TnB, along with all the other combat maneuvers we've read about.
Speed is the biggest component, that separates energy fighting from any other style.

It bothers me when i see people using "BnZ" when referring to "energy fighting" and vice-verse.
They are two noticeably different tactics.

Friendly_flyer
08-05-2009, 03:53 AM
Come on folks, let the guys have their fun server! Everybody have their own tastes.

I prefer to stay out of the "hyper realistic" servers where the B&Z crowd hangs, not because I dislike energy fighting, but because I more interested in ground objectives and find it less than amusing to be gang-banged by half a dozen B&Zmers out to score points. I don't deplore their servers or style, it is a valid form of fun, just not mine. Each to his own.

The guys making the server are in their full right to have the rules they like. They are providing us with a service (a server to fly on). Ridiculing them for their chosen form of fun is not only bad form, it is missing the whole point of having many different servers rather than one.

M_Gunz
08-05-2009, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
Nothing new about this... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511075486?r=5701038486#5701038486)

I've yet to really get down the BnZ gunnery (split second deflection burst), and it's nearly impossible to practice against the AI since they are always all-seeing and all-knowing. But it's a blast when you find that unsuspecting victim 'just flying along', which BTW IRL happened quite frequently.

If you shoot from distance in BnZ then you have a good full two seconds to get shots in. From outside 250m the AI does not
break at a side and rear approach and once inside it still takes then a couple seconds to react. It's when you get inside
250m and take a while to line up a stern shot while trying to trim up or PIO a nose bob that they will predictably break.

T_O_A_D
08-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Reminds me of a night on the Zone years ago in CFS1

I joined a server with Hurricanes, and P-51's only.

I thought, lets fly the P-51 since everyone is turning and burning in the Hurricanes.

It was last man alive senario.

So I went in there and B&Z/energy fought the top of the furbal and won three or four matches, in a row.

The Host got ****ed, and gave me a tongue lashing saying I couldn't B&Z, and I had to fight fair, and he kicked me. Before I could chat a reply back.

So I promptly rejoined, and got another lashing for having the gull to come back in. I pleaded My case, and said I'd gladly fly the scenario as he laid forth. While other clients were sending what he do, why ya kick him etc.
The Host reluctantly agreed to let me play due to other players pressures to let me back in. I didn't know a sole in there, and still don't.

I jumped in the Hurricane, and only attacked him, right off the bat, then enjoyed the fight with others, winning a few more in a row.

He left the server unannounced, In CFS the server control moved to the next strongest IP or something, and one of the clients became the host.

Everyone in the room got a good laugh out of what happened, and they all without a word knew to let me have him, and not shoot at me till he was dead. And once gone, they all cheered over chat.

About 30 minutes later he came back and flew with his mouth closed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

idonno
08-05-2009, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
About 30 minutes later he came back and flew with his mouth closed.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Love it!

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-05-2009, 04:42 PM
On the other hand, you are completely wrong on the fantary part, because BnZ wasn't the ONLY way to fight. Even in late 1944, P-51 pilots did several turns, low and slow, sometimes with flaps down, cutting throttle etc.

You misunderstand. What you describe is no even close to the preferred method of engaging the enemy. What you describe is a last resort effort. Its not the norm. "BnZ" has always been the preferred method to engage the enemy. And it certainly is the correct way. So I am very right!

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
08-05-2009, 04:50 PM
It bothers me when i see people using "BnZ" when referring to "energy fighting" and vice-verse.
They are two noticeably different tactics.

Exactly! It seems the arcade crowd likes to lump anyone who flies their aircraft correctly by always maintaining superior energy into one single category. This just goes to show how ignorant they are when it comes to aerial combat. So instead of learning how to do it properly and instead of doing some research they just ban people who do not fly the way they want them to.

I suppose if you pay for the server go ahead and do it. What does annoy me is when those with this type of mentality come in to a server that encourages people to fly correctly. They whine and call people cowards for not flying in a fashion that allows them to easily kill them. They makes comments such as "come back here and fight" and "get down here and fight like a man". So they get to fly how they wish but others are cannot? Simply ridiculous! How bout they simply "learn to fly"? (virtually that is)

S!

WTE_Galway
08-05-2009, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:


I agree on you that speed and altitude was the PREFERRED way (due to safety).

On the other hand, you are completely wrong on the fantary part, because BnZ wasn't the ONLY way to fight. Even in late 1944, P-51 pilots did several turns, low and slow, sometimes with flaps down, cutting throttle etc.

I think this is a good source to read: Official P-51 after-action reports form ETO 1944-45 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html)

Excerpts on turning:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
1st Lt. Hubert Davis, 19 March 1945, 78th FG "We had made about two 360 degree turns, when I was able to get in a burst at 90 degrees."
2nd Lt. Richard I. Kuehl, 2 March 1945, 78th FG "Then I tightened up my turn and was closing on the 109's tail when he cut his throttle and stayed in a left bank. I dumped flaps and he leveled for a minute and then went into a left bank again. By this time I had slowed down enough to pull in behind him."
1st Lt. Charles S. Coe, 26 November 1944, 339th FG "We started a Luftberry and circled for several minutes before I could get into firing position but when I did open up I saw strikes."

Once again, it was not preferred, but it did happen often, far more often that the BnZ jockeys dare to admit.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


uh huh

here is another quote from the period ...


Joe Foss - USMC:

.... they went clear up to Bougainville. They sent P-38's to fly cover on B-17's and on B-24's. There would be Zeros above them and below them would be more Zeros, float bi-planes and float Zeros, but their orders were to stay in formation with the bombers. If any of the enemy fighters made an attack, they'd just pull up, give a short burst, and the enemy fighter would pull right back up out of range. When they failed to do this one day, three of them were shot down. They went down below 20,000 feet to get some "easy meat", (these float bi-planes that can turn on a dime) - went down and tried to dogfight - that was the end of three P-38's ...

orville07
08-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Come on folks, let the guys have their fun server! Everybody have their own tastes.

I prefer to stay out of the "hyper realistic" servers where the B&Z crowd hangs, not because I dislike energy fighting, but because I more interested in ground objectives and find it less than amusing to be gang-banged by half a dozen B&Zmers out to score points. I don't deplore their servers or style, it is a valid form of fun, just not mine. Each to his own.

The guys making the server are in their full right to have the rules they like. They are providing us with a service (a server to fly on). Ridiculing them for their chosen form of fun is not only bad form, it is missing the whole point of having many different servers rather than one.

Hear,Hear, friendly flyer.....Well said. The way some folk talk on here about a frikkin computer game (SHOCK, HORROR Yes, thats what it is!) always makes me laugh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . People can enjoy this GAME anyway they like. I think some people need to stop taking themselves and this computer game too seriously. Hey, I'm a fighter pilot! Err, no....You're not. You're an overgrown kid just like me playing a video game. Grow up lol. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
08-05-2009, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
Come on folks, let the guys have their fun server! Everybody have their own tastes.

I prefer to stay out of the "hyper realistic" servers where the B&Z crowd hangs, not because I dislike energy fighting, but because I more interested in ground objectives and find it less than amusing to be gang-banged by half a dozen B&Zmers out to score points. I don't deplore their servers or style, it is a valid form of fun, just not mine. Each to his own.

The guys making the server are in their full right to have the rules they like. They are providing us with a service (a server to fly on). Ridiculing them for their chosen form of fun is not only bad form, it is missing the whole point of having many different servers rather than one.
I'd agree except that this server and this rule sounds mighty unfriendly. Anyone who is doing well by leveraging a superior energy fighting technique...be it the hit and run boom and zoom method or more sophisticated energy style fighting could be kicked. Even for doing too well...its just not very cut and dried. It sounds like a very hostile kind of rule...thats why it bothers me so much. I will not fly there and I really hope that such a rule doesn't spread to otherwise fun and enjoyable servers for me. So long as nobody else thinks its a good idea...so be it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I do like to fly ground attacks too. Thats what you'll see me doing about 50% of my time online. Personally I'd rather succeed in my ground attack run through superior planning, skill, and a bit of luck than prevent my opponents from using whatever means at their disposal to bring me down. I know thats not what you're getting at ...its just how I feel about it.

megalopsuche
08-05-2009, 07:48 PM
It's like banning the check-raise in poker! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

rnzoli
08-05-2009, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
What you describe is a last resort effort. Absolutely NOT. These 360 degree turns, Luftberrys, etc. happened VOLUNTARILY, chosen by well trainin pilots, not in any sort of emergency.


Its not the norm."BnZ" has always been the preferred method to engage the enemy. I fully agree to that. The reports also describe events, where the P51s had to investigate contacts low and they rather chose carefully to make a fast fly-by to check them, did not want to take the risk of saddling in.

it certainly is the correct way. Define "correct". In relation to your own survival, yes. For fulfilling mission objectives, no. E.g., think about the Russian fighters escorting the low-flying IL-2s, what other options did they have than drawing a turn-fight with the Messers? Would you dare to state they flew their aircraft "incorrectly"?

rnzoli
08-05-2009, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Once again, [turnfighing] was not preferred, but it did happen often, far more often that the BnZ jockeys dare to admit.




uh huh

here is another quote from the period ...


Joe Foss - USMC:
[...] They went down below 20,000 feet to get some "easy meat", (these float bi-planes that can turn on a dime) - went down and tried to dogfight - that was the end of three P-38's ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Errm... I don't see what you are trying to say. With an increasing disparity of turning abilities, the turnfighting becomes more and more risky. P51s also went down in ETO when trying to dogfight Me109s, but of course there are fewer reports about them (only if they get mentioned in a claim report by someone else, who made it back home from the same turnfight).

My key point is that BnZ was NOT EXCLUSIVE.

This doesn't make the server rule "historically correct" in any sense. But by the same token, it doesn't mean the server promotes a totally non-existent type of combat.

If you want to go deeper into realism etc, the whole dogfight server scenarios are so far from reality. In what percentage of their play time do you see squadrons sticking together and fighting together in a coordinated way? Flying with the "BnZ" or "Mr.Energy fighter" badge on any dogfight server is still a poor +2 on a +10 scale in realism, that is nowhere near. The view of combat is the closest to real accounts in co-op missions only.

DuxCorvan
08-06-2009, 04:07 AM
I don't understand any server which establishes rules for engagement. There were no such things in real life, and really spoils all immersion in it.

The only unfair thing is cheating, IMHO. If you're bounced and surprised by a "cowardly" faster and higher opponent, is all your fault: you should have been watching your back. Awareness is part of combat.

Friendly_flyer
08-06-2009, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'd agree except that this server and this rule sounds mighty unfriendly.

Then you have the option not to fly on that server, a choice which I believe will make bout yours and their day more enjoyable. It's not my cup of tea either, but it is not for me to tell others how to enjoy their sim.

As for this rule "spreading", I find that less than likely. Historically, servers tend to go from easier to harder settings as the taste of those hosting evolve. Such a rule will only spread to the degree that people want it, which this thread rather clearly shows is not the case.

Ridiculing these people serve no purpose, except to alienate them from the community or to highlight ones own (superior?) preferences.

hirosangels
08-06-2009, 02:54 PM
Wow.

I might have encountered the same thing.


I think some servers its worsening

I felt weird. I dunno. I can't call it racist but maybe Type-ist? or stero-TYPE-ing. or model-ist?



Scenario 1:

I did a split S when I realized my P-38 was turning too slow and another Japanese bird was coming on my six.

Then kick / ban with "No BZ. Learn to fly or don't pick P-38 BZ plane."

What? I was just doing a split S to gain airspeed and save my life.

And you don't like P-38's?



Scenario 2:

Server


Plane set is wide and varied, however I notice there isn't any La-7's. La-5's, yes. I realize my fav axis plane is there, pick it and upon take off begin circling above the field for alt.

Around 3000 ft, kick with 'Where are you going? Fight is that way*. Rule 1, engage!'

That's weird only thing I saw 'dogfight, best furball. No uber planes' **

Go back in, and pick the FW-190 A-8. Take off and follow where everyone is flying off to.

Then kick. "Don't use FW-190. Choose something turn better."



What? Why do you have the 190's in the plane set?

I decided fun factor was zero there and . . . not go back in


*I forget the heading the admin put in
**they did Ki-84's


Well my thing is just go to a different server.


apparently this isn't new or pp are just stirring the pot

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/2511075486/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511075486/p/1)


http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...341094456#1341094456 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1341094456?r=1341094456#1341094456)

Gadje
08-07-2009, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by hirosangels:
Then kick / ban with "No BZ. <span class="ev_code_PINK">Learn to fly</span> or don't pick P-38 BZ plane."



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Too funny!

It may be their server so their right to but with that manner coming from grown men, some lightly seasoned ridicule seems quite appropriate here.

Yet to see any supporters voice their opinion.

x6BL_Brando
08-07-2009, 06:36 AM
I was just doing a split S to gain airspeed and save my life.

I think that's the telling phrase. The guy is in for a kill but you escape - so he kicks you using the first excuse that comes to mind. Pitiful really.

I'd take the cop's advice, "nothing to see here", and move on.

B

Manu-6S
08-07-2009, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Gadje:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hirosangels:
Then kick / ban with "No BZ. <span class="ev_code_PINK">Learn to fly</span> or don't pick P-38 BZ plane."



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Too funny!

It may be their server so their right to but with that manner coming from grown men, some lightly seasoned ridicule seems quite appropriate here.

Yet to see any supporters voice their opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.funnycatpix.com/_pics/cat_laughing_out_loud.jpg

I can't believe it!!!

Give me that server name please... it's going to become my new milestone in regard of stupidity.

It's almost better than Spitvs109 and their stupid historical missions/ realistic planesets....

DKoor
08-07-2009, 12:23 PM
So what's the fuss about?

Tomorrow, I can make a server that will ban cannon usage.
So you can make a whine thread here on ubi on just how insane I am.

.50cal FTW and no more naughty FW one pass=kill.

Xiolablu3
08-07-2009, 03:18 PM
I agree with Rnzoli, WW2 air fighting was a combination of close-in dogfighting, B&Z and every kind of manouvre you can think of. It all depended on plane types and the situation.

Japanese pilot reigned supreme while dogfighting early in the war.

Spitfire pilots in the ET knew their planes turned better and so tried to draw Germans into dogifhts.

SPitfire pilots in the PF knew the Japanese planes turned better and so used energy tactics.

It all depends on what your plane does better than the enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBdJyLx4aqI

^^^Take this interview with an RAF Ace, for example, he loved his planes turning ability. I actually think (in my opinion of course) that he got the wrong idea about the Luftwaffe pilots towards the ened of the battle. Their nerves were not actually 'gone' as he says, they just were refusing to be drawn into a turnfight with the Spitfire. He just got the wrong idea and misunderstood the Germans refusal to close-in dogfight with them being afraid.

Use your planes strengths over the enemy also know your own planes weaknesses.

Muddy17
08-07-2009, 08:44 PM
Ok so Im on the tail of a "Blue" just about lined up and about to shoot when suddenly tracers flash by and I quickly break off and dodge the "totaly proven BnZ" only to see the boomer streak back up and not bother to see if I am able to get back on his on teams *** and continue to kill someone from his squad??

This happens all the time online and some times I die and sometimes I can reaquier my original target knowing the Boomer ant comming back soon.

Two things are writen here
1 BnZ IS a very powerfull way of doing buisness in real life combat.

2 after reading about everything I could get my hands on for the past 20 odd years refering to air combat, I do not too often at all read of Loan Wolves that after the first pass leave a squade member alone down on the deck just so he could better his score and not use his fighter in a IN A WAY IT JUST NOT WAS MADE FOR.

When I see "real world" I just tingle, cause someone is about to tell me how it really was and granted BnZ was very real and totaly efective, but if you were in a squadron with me and you were lolegagen about in the clouds while your buddys were dying below,,, well you should just find someplace else to land. MOST air combat starts with BnZ but does not stay that way for long at all.

I am not for or aginst rooms with such rules but really how much fun would a BnZ only rule be. I do prefer the BnZ myself by the way..

Muddy.

As allways Im not the know it all of air combat and do not wish to offend anyone
These are just my thoughts.

Woke_Up_Dead
08-08-2009, 12:41 AM
I tried a "no BnZ" server a couple of times, it was quite fun. The rules combined with the close air-starts and limited icons make for excellent practice of quick, effective gunnery and solid SA. It's also a good place to practice that new move against humans; you can be in a fight within 10-20 seconds of respawning so you can try something out many times in a few minutes. Think of it as a sparring ring to work on a few limited aspects rather than the real fight-ring where you are more careful and can use all the tools in your arsenal.

My complaint about the server is that while it's a TnB only server it does not include bi-planes or the P-11 in its planeset.

Tully__
08-08-2009, 01:45 AM
Only once in four pages has anyone mentioned the name of such a server {now removed}. Please keep it that way.

megalopsuche
08-08-2009, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Muddy17:
Ok so Im on the tail of a "Blue" just about lined up and about to shoot when suddenly tracers flash by and I quickly break off and dodge the "totaly proven BnZ" only to see the boomer streak back up and not bother to see if I am able to get back on his on teams *** and continue to kill someone from his squad??


What you describe here is the timid BnZ style that is almost not a threat. My concern is, if timid BnZ is the only kind worth criticizing because it is so ineffective, the justification for making a rule against it is gone.

Aggressive BnZ almost doesn't deserve the same label because a big majority of those who think they are using energy tactics are just flying timidly. Using superior energy to defeat an opponent is the goal of ACM (even in so called TnB), and the only thing accomplished by restricting the fight to 2 dimensions is to inhibit learning. Aggressive energy tactics are the mark of an experienced combat pilot. Unlike many other pursuits, in air combat there is not a variety of different yet equally legitimate points of view.

So, if there is no justification for banning timid BnZ because it is inconsequential, the only justification for banning aggressive BnZ is that it is too effective. Yet because its out-of-plane maneuvers are not learned through simple intuition, i.e. rolling your lift vector at a bandit and pulling back on the stick, we are told that they do not use energy tactics by choice; that they are inferior because they choose to be inferior, and that we are guilty because we do not choose likewise. The only motivation for BnZ = Ban is a bad conscience.

Bearcat99
08-09-2009, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Tuphlandng:
Thank you na85 That's what I thought. Aircraft from above has superior speed attacks aircraft below. Situational awareness is the only preventative solution. Of course that's not fair that's like sneaking up on somebody to take them out of the game. Ya that's not fare But then again If I fly straight and level I might be asking for it. What do you think

Not quite... situational awareness... and teamwork... and therin lies the rub.. some folks would rather whine & complain because all they really want to do is get on a server and score... the thrill of a well executed thatch weave totally escapes them....


Originally posted by na85:
What do I think?

I think that if we play this game to recreate WW2 air combat, then all's fair in love and war. Use whatever moves/tactics/strategies are most suited to the situation. Play to your strengths, not the enemy's.
Of course it's not 'fair'... but then again who said it has to be fair? I don't want a fair fight. I want to shoot the other guy down as fast as possible.
Banning bnz is silly.

+1

I want a good fight... Since I can do it again winning or loosing is moot..

Choctaw111
08-09-2009, 12:17 PM
I don't know the plane set on the server in question, but I am not sure what would posses anyone to find the BnZ tactic as unfair. What about other tactics that utilize a fighters' specific strengths? Are those illegal as well?
If enough folks stay away from that server for this reason, I am sure the admins will get the idea.
Perhaps a some people who cannot fly very well themselves, or even kids running it.

WTE_Galway
08-09-2009, 09:38 PM
The solution is easy.

Eliminate all fighting in the vertical by banning taking off.

All dog fights are to be conducted within the confines of the airfield without rotating.

AndyJWest
08-10-2009, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
The solution is easy.

Eliminate all fighting in the vertical by banning taking off.

All dog fights are to be conducted within the confines of the airfield without rotating.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Brilliant! You will still get problems though, as a tricycle undercarriage gives an unfair advantage, no doubt they will ban these as well...

rnzoli
08-10-2009, 03:03 AM
The guys have an airstart already, what to do then?

At least in co-ops, you could lock the armament and give them 0 fuel and maybe empty ammo loadout.

I actually posted an online mission, featuring various fighters, air-starting high up, but with no fuel at all. Gives you a good lesson in energy retention, because if you wasted it, it's gone! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheFamilyMan
08-10-2009, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
Nothing new about this... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2511075486?r=5701038486#5701038486)
So what happened? It seems that the "no BnZ" rule is pretty long standing and the servers are popular, but I don't know about any server which would keep the "no T&B" rule. There is a reason for this, huh?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>The linked post was only meant to be a joke.

My thoughts about servers which ban BnZ: go fly elsewheres. Or better yet join a squad that flies coops and success is measured on how well your SQUAD performs. For me dogfight servers are practice arenas for when I fly with my squad.

squareusr
08-10-2009, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
That's the strange part. The rest of the server settings are more challenging than servers that aim at history, e.g. skies of valor, which I would love if only they'd disable the external views.

Why not? They have a great kickboxing simulation and want to use it as a boxing simulation by discouraging kicks. I really can't see why this should imply that they'd naturally tone down other, completely unrelated aspects of the simulation as well...

Choctaw111
08-10-2009, 02:30 PM
I didn't see it, but is it mentioned here what the realism settings are on said server?
I would find it hard to believe that this would be a "full switch" server to have such rules as these.
If this is the case, and I know that not everyone here flies full switch, why not simply find another server with about the same difficulty settings?
Complaining about a server like this is about the same as complaining about Aces High or an equivalent. There isn't much sense in it. If you don't like it, fly somewhere else. Those that like it will stay.
Why all the hubbub about this server anyway? There are plenty to choose from, yes?

Friendly_flyer
08-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by TheFamilyMan:
join a squad that flies coops and success is measured on how well your SQUAD performs. For me dogfight servers are practice arenas for when I fly with my squad.

That would be my preferences too.