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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:36 PM
I have seen this posted before but is a study done by the USAAF on attacks on B-17s and B-24s.

Also the dispersion of rounds from different gunner's positions.



Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils

For the B-24 it was:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils


Can you imagine what the results would be while shooting in the air at a real a/c traveling at high speed? Definately not as one sees in FB with its sharpshooter gunners.



**************************



Attacks in reference to azimuth direction only.(can be high and low)

B-17 - 3585 attacks, 441 hits (12.3%)

clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits

1 - 12.5 - 9.3
2 - 5.9 - 6.7
3 - 4.5 - 3.9
4 - 5.7 - 4.0
5 - 9.0 - 9.1
6 - 20.7 - 15.6
7 - 8.9 - 6.6
8 - 3.8 - 2.7
9 - 3.9 - 2.9
10 - 3.7 - 3.9
11 - 10.4 - 10.3
12 - 20.2 - 15.6


B-24 - 1042 attacks, 102 hits (9.8%)

clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits

1 - 12.7 - 8.7
2 - 3.9 - 5.2
3 - 2.9 - 5.4
4 - 3.0 - 3.6
5 - 7.8 - 7.7
6 - 19.6 - 20.6
7 - 11.0 - 6.9
8 - 3.1 - 2.0
9 - 2.8 - 3.9
10 - 6.9 - 3.4
11 - 11.9 - 7.8
12 - 21.6 - 17.6

taken from: "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2

Message Edited on 07/07/0303:44PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:36 PM
I have seen this posted before but is a study done by the USAAF on attacks on B-17s and B-24s.

Also the dispersion of rounds from different gunner's positions.



Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils

For the B-24 it was:

ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils


Can you imagine what the results would be while shooting in the air at a real a/c traveling at high speed? Definately not as one sees in FB with its sharpshooter gunners.



**************************



Attacks in reference to azimuth direction only.(can be high and low)

B-17 - 3585 attacks, 441 hits (12.3%)

clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits

1 - 12.5 - 9.3
2 - 5.9 - 6.7
3 - 4.5 - 3.9
4 - 5.7 - 4.0
5 - 9.0 - 9.1
6 - 20.7 - 15.6
7 - 8.9 - 6.6
8 - 3.8 - 2.7
9 - 3.9 - 2.9
10 - 3.7 - 3.9
11 - 10.4 - 10.3
12 - 20.2 - 15.6


B-24 - 1042 attacks, 102 hits (9.8%)

clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits

1 - 12.7 - 8.7
2 - 3.9 - 5.2
3 - 2.9 - 5.4
4 - 3.0 - 3.6
5 - 7.8 - 7.7
6 - 19.6 - 20.6
7 - 11.0 - 6.9
8 - 3.1 - 2.0
9 - 2.8 - 3.9
10 - 6.9 - 3.4
11 - 11.9 - 7.8
12 - 21.6 - 17.6

taken from: "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2

Message Edited on 07/07/0303:44PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:41 PM
When I am on the ground? No, I applaud the pilot.


When I am in the air? No, I blame myself for not getting him first.




How many boards could the Mongols hoard if the Mongol Horde got bored?

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:41 PM
yeah maybe it is a bit overdone, but adapt your tactics to head on attacks with height advantage or anything with a decent angle off tail and you should get away un-hit time after time.

So, forgive my ignorance, but what do those numbers actually tell us - is it like one bullet every thirty feet at speed?

Also if you were say a 109 pilot flying head on through a formation of 12 (for argument's sake) B17s, how likely would you be to get hit, can you determine that from those numbers you have?

I just don't know - stats aren't my thing, curious to see what you think.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:42 PM
I hate getting killed



/This relatively meaningless post has been brought to you by Ackackman.

Duh!

[No scripts and no Pilots lounge make Ack a dull boy]

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:43 PM
No.

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:52 PM
Yes, I really hate that.

I know the german pilots really feared aircraft like the Pe-2, but really, when you are intercepting any bombers, that's always the same, they can shoot you as if they had guided bullets.

And, in the original Il-2, the Pe-2 and the Ju-88 were ready to compete for the "best fighter" title.

And, finally, after all, that's frustrating to get shot down (hopefully, I wasn't PKed many times) by these big fat flying trucks (even if I wouldn't mind flying one, particularly the Pe-2)...

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:03 PM
Yup one of my biggest gripes with the game becasue I love playing interceptor.

Have you ever noticed when you use an Me 109 and you just look at the back of a bomber and the tail gunner sees you, BANG your screen gets covered in oil, even if you only cross his path for a split second. It happens almost 90% of the time I can even count down to it.

"Fly a little higer turn, now the tailgunner can see me and bang I switch on my oily windscreen wipers."

I have also been shot in the head when flying miles below with one single bullet! (Can't remember if it was Original IL or FB)

Anyway I am sure that if it was that hard to intercept bombers then very few would have been shot down in the war. That's why they developed formations to cover each other but I have trouble with a lone PE 8 unless I'm using a MK 108 cannon or summin.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:05 AM
Y'know, the most frustrating thing about the ueber gunners is that during beta for the original IL-2, they actually had it RIGHT. It was set so that, if you had a low closure speed attack right up the 6:00 of a bomber, you were likely to get lit up.

But if your attack was fast, or it slashed, or changed vectors during the pass, the guns were hard pressed to hit you. Just like the real gunners. Of course, that made your shot harder as the attacker, too. But the sniper deaths were few and far between, so it's worth the tradeoff.

But, something happened between the final beta version and the gold version, and the AI tail gunners have ueber ever since. Now, unless I know the crew quality of the AI gunned planes is average or below, I won't bother to attack them, because I know they're using the omnipotent sim information to plot their tracking; thus, they *can't* miss.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:14 AM
The funny thing is, that I started out hating it and soon found that I had to adapt to the situation of gunners taken out of Counter-Strike, I realized this within the first hour of flight, then I started frontal attacks, but ruled them out since I show the rear-gunner my tail after the pass and therefore had to make some drastic manouvers which would bring me in a situation where I had to fly for a while to get into position again. At last I started deflection shooting comming in from the side and slightly above, or below depending on the type of aircraft I was up against, all in all it works for me and I'm getting pretty good in deflection-shooting/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:27 AM
I know what he means though. I was flying online in a G-6 and had found a flight of Il-2's below me, flying on a course almost opposite of mine.

Rolling into a dive and then pulling up, I was climbing on the low four o'clock of the right-most plane when I saw a single tracer from the rear gunner come straight for me and....black screen, player killed.

Yeah, it happened but not with the sniper-like efficiency that we currently see. I'll be glad when that's fixed.

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