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View Full Version : Inferior planes as bomber destroyers, bombs as air to air weapons etc



Hanglands
12-18-2006, 01:32 PM
Hi,

After doing the successful tests in the past with the AB1000 bombs on formations of bombers (check here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/153...531018694#1531018694 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1531018694?r=1531018694#1531018694) ), I wondered if good results could be achieved with lesser aircraft and lesser bombs. In other words, can cr@p planes be effective bomber destroyers. Im talking about the P.11, the I-16, and the I-153. As I was flying IL-2 campaigns at the time, I also dabbled with the IL-2.

What I was thinking about at the time was - would a small number of aircraft carrying 'area' weapons (bombs) and using them against small flights or large formations of enemy aircraft, be more effective as a defence than a comparatively large number of fighters?

Basically the technique I used is to cause the rearward facing gunners to expend their ammunition (in the case of unescorted aircraft), or come in fast from up on high, out of the sun and surprise them (in the case of escorted aircraft), then drop some bombs into an aircraft, and make a get away before the fighter escort pin you down. The result should be an explosion that destroys several aircraft or at least breaks the formation up.

I dont know how effective this technique would have been in real life. I dont know enough about bomb fuzing etc to say. I dont know if FAB50s would just pass straight through an aircraft. I do know that there are many accounts of bombers dropping their load onto other aircraft in their own formation and downing them, but I dont know if this was due to the mechanical damage of the bomb hitting and passing through the aircraft, or the explosion of the bomb.


This first video shows a I-153 bringing down He-111s with FAB50s, an I-16 downing a Me-323, and a P11 bringing down a Ju-88.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/th_bomberdestroyers_0001.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/?action=view&current=bomberdestroyers_0001.flv)


So, single inferior aircraft with low bombloads can down bombers with predictable success.

But what about formations? For formation bombing, I tried the Yak with PTABs, and the IL-2 with VAP250s:


http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/th_formations.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/?action=view&current=formations.flv)


The PTABs were much harder to use than I predicted. I tried many many times coming in at different angles. The best success was downing two aircraft for the expenditure of 144 PTABs.
Better success was had with the VAP250s, bringing down three He-111s on the first attempt.
The PTABs it seems, need to hit the aircraft around the engine, or in the fuselage. I did see several examples of where a Heinkel was only 'clipped' by the PTAB, and a medium sized hole was blown in the outer third of the wing.
The VAP was predictably a lot more successful, due to it dispersing over a wider area. Although, again, Im not sure how this would have worked in real life. I dont know if altitude would effect the burning. I do know that the IL-2 wouldnt have been able to operate in this way at high altitude due to its own limitations. But this technique surely would have created more terror (with the pilots intrinsic fear of burning), and in that way perhaps have been a more successful method of breaking up bomber formations.

So far, so good. But if you want to drop a more substantial payload in, to take out the whole flight, you need FAB250s, like this IL-2 does :


http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/th_il2airbomber.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/?action=view&current=il2airbomber.flv)


Thats what I wanted. Four enemy bombers taken out for just a few seconds on the danger area.

This could probably be compared to using ultra short range rockets, but with rockets you dont get sufficient blast.

What do you think of this as a technique for on or offline say? I will stick these videos and a bit more about them on my website (link in sig) in due course.

Regards.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Haigotron
12-18-2006, 01:40 PM
:O WOW! those were awesome! i wanted to know, did you use externals to make those drops? or was it all full real? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

very impressive and entertaining http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Waldo.Pepper
12-18-2006, 02:00 PM
Can you please post the .ntrk files?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LStarosta
12-18-2006, 02:02 PM
That was full-awesome.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hanglands
12-18-2006, 02:06 PM
Hi,

Thanks Haigotron. I normally fly full switch (sometimes with minimap). But for the stuff in the first vid, I did allow myself the luxury of externals. The externals in the second two vids are from the trks.

Hi Waldo_Pepper, I would happily give you the ntrks, but I upgraded to 4.07 this very evening, so everything I had in 4.04 install has gone bye-bye. If there was something specific you anted to see, I may have it in one of the un-edited movie clips.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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general_kalle
12-18-2006, 02:15 PM
AWASOME http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

lets all play a tribute to Hanglands

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AWL_Spinner
12-18-2006, 02:23 PM
Of course, this is the most likely cause of Glenn Miller's disappearance.

Well not an intentional air-to-air bombing, mind, more a sad twist of fate. Sorry for the OT but it's an interesting read.



The late Fred Shaw was the navigator of a Lancaster (serial number NF973) based in Methwold. On the day Miller's plane disappeared, 138 Lancaster bombers ? one of them Shaw's ? were returning from an aborted bombing raid on Siegen in Germany because their fighter escorts had failed to get off the ground. Because the squadron could not possibly land with their staggering bomb load, their combined total of 100,000 incendiary bombs had to be jettisoned. The bomb jettison zone was known as the South Jettison Area (a ten-mile circle 50 miles south of Beachy Head over the English Channel), and was officially dangerous grounds to be avoided by all aeroplanes and ships.

When the bombs were jettisoned from a safety height of 4000 feet, Shaw, who had never seen a bombing before, was driven by curiosity to look out the window. As the bombs exploded several feet above the surface of the sea, he saw a plane 2500 feet below, flying south. Years later he would say: 'It was obvious to me that the aeroplane below was in trouble, so I watched intently. Then, just before it went out of sight under the leading edge of the wing, I saw it flick over to port in what looked like an incipient spin. And eventually I saw it disappear into the English Channel.' The bomb aimer had reported the same sighting a moment before; now a rear gunner called over the intercom that 'there's a kite6 just gone in down under'.

Because they were technically not in enemy territory and the mission had been reported, the men were not debriefed, and the downed plane remained unreported.

Shaw never connected the downed plane with Glenn Miller's mysterious disappearance until 1956 when he saw the movie The Glenn Miller Story. He had decided on impulse to check his old log book ? and realised that the Norseman he'd seen plunging into the sea could very well have been Miller's.

When Shaw first came out with his story, the public's initial response ? especially that of the Glenn Miller Appreciation Society ? was to dismiss him as a publicity seeker. A hail of awkward questions descended: How could it be proven that Miller's plane had strayed into the path of Lancasters when John Morgan had even failed to register a flight path? How was Shaw able to recognise a Norseman, when there were only a half-dozen of these Canadian planes in Britain, all of them in American air bases? What about the one-hour discrepancy?

The British Defence Ministry's Air Historical Branch decided to investigate the claim and recruited Roy Nesbit, an aviation historian and (now) RAF editor at the public record office, who spent years researching the problem. The findings revealed were:

1. How could Miller's plane have strayed into a jettison zone?

The Norseman had no option but to take the SHAEF shuttle path (the route employed by the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Forces) to France. Despite all the anti-aircraft emplacements on the south-east coast, a route had been cleared for flights. Unfortunately, this brought Miller's plane perilously close to the jettison area, which was only a few miles away from the SHAEF path. Because John Morgan was inexperienced in flying by instruments, he would most likely have used a compass - which was notoriously unreliable - especially if the pilot was navigating an area without landmarks - and was in this case fatal.

2. Why was there a one-hour discrepancy in flight time?

The official report was that the bomb group had jettisoned their bombs at 1.40pm on 15 December; Morgan's flight log put the plane one hour ahead of the bomb group, thereby raising questions as to the validity of the claim. However, by comparing logs written in the air with operations in the ground, Nesbit was able to determine that the Americans had used local time, which was an hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time, thereby explaining the discrepancy.

3. How could Shaw have recognised such a rare aeroplane?

In fact, Shaw had answered this question himself ? his navigator training had taken place in Manitoba, Canada, where the Norseman aeroplanes were aplenty.

Although the Glenn Miller Appreciation Society dismissed the story because they believed that no plane could have possibly flown that day owing to bad weather, one member, Alan Ross, took it seriously and independently investigated the matter. He wrote in to Air Mail, the RAF Association Journal, asking for other members of the Lancaster's crew to come forward. Victor Gregory, who had captained Shaw's plane, responded to the mail, believing it to be for some sort of reunion. When asked about the sighting, Gregory confirmed the story. He himself had not witnessed the bombing of the plane; however, he recalled that the bombardier had spotted the plane, and had called the navigator over to have a look; soon after, Fred Shaw had identified the plane as a Norseman.

When asked why he had not come forward until now, Gregory replied:

When we got back from that raid, it was an aborted raid, so we didn't go in for our normal debriefing. Don't think me unsympathetic or callous, but when I heard of the plane going down, I would have said that he shouldn't have been there - forget him. My own concern was getting my own aeroplane home safely. We were fighting a war, and we lost thousands of planes. We had some pretty grim raids after that, and they didn't announce Miller's death until later. It had gone completely from my mind.

A separate investigation carried out by EA Munday of the Air Historical Branch at the Ministry of Defence revealed records confirming that a squadron had taken off at noon on 15 December 1944 to attack the railway yards at Steigen. The records further confirmed that the force had to be recalled before they even entered German-controlled airspace, and that the planes were ordered to jettison their bombs in the South Jettison Area.

A Ministry of Defence letter was eventually issued by Munday to Fred Shaw in 1985, stating that:

Until your story appeared in the South African press in 1984, the RAF had always regarded Miller's death as a strictly USAAF matter, as the result of some sort of flying accident, probably as a result of poor weather conditions. We have received letters at various times asking about it, some of which put forth theories, some feasible, and some not so feasible.

Up until 1984, the only RAF connection was that Miller's plane had taken off from the RAF airfield at Twinwood Farms, Bedfordshire in weather conditions which could be described as marginal, or at least marginal for that type of aircraft.

Your story, to a greater extent, changed this, and we carried out an investigation earlier this year into the aborted bomber operation of 15 Dec. 1944. Because the operation was aborted, there is no raid report on B(omber) C(ommand) records, as would have been customary with a completed operation. We did find reference to the intended course.

Shaw's documents were eventually sold by Mrs Shaw, who, according to her daughter Cheryl Fillmore of Southampton, believed that the material should not rot in a drawer but be made available to those who were interested in the matter. The documents were sold by Sotheby's on 13 April 1999 for a grand sum of 22,000.

The logbook of Derek Thurman, the flight engineer on board Shaw's Lancaster, surfaced in 2000, corroborating Shaw's testimonial. Thurman had written that when the bombs were away, three crew members on board the plane had spotted a light aircraft below, which seemed to have been downed by the hail of explosives. The bomb aimer saw it first from the nose and commented on it, whereupon the navigator shot out of his seat to the side blister (window) to have a look. He saw the plane whip by. Seconds later, the rear gunner called in to say: 'It's gone in, flipped over and gone in.' Thurman's logbook was also sold by Sotheby's, fetching a paltry sum of $880.
<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers, Spinner

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Haigotron
12-18-2006, 02:30 PM
wow, twisted but interesting non the less spinner! thanks!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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tigertalon
12-18-2006, 09:25 PM
Hanglands strikes again! Impressive m8!

On early eastern front maps online I often take E4b with 4xSC50, with a bit of luck you can get two TB3s only with bombs (that thing is kinda hard to miss), and you still keep full ammo for tangling with fighters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

Waldo.Pepper
12-18-2006, 10:54 PM
For the record - very impressive. I need to practice.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Philipscdrw
12-19-2006, 01:32 AM
I remember there was a track (.trk, not .ntrk!) in the original Il-2 showing the destruction of Me323s with PTABs. But I could never make the track display properly.

Thanks for the video Hanglands! How on earth do you aim these bombs? It looked like you were skip-bombing the He111...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hanglands
12-19-2006, 02:46 AM
Hi all,

Thanks for the positive comments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

As for the aiming, Phillipscdrw - As I say the first movie was made with externals on, I just tried to match speed and sweep across the bombers wing span and drop. The Yak and IL-2 in the latter two were flown from the pit. It was only day two with my new Saitek after my FF Logitech went kaput. As a result I was all over the place in the roll axis. With the 'skip bombing' IL-2 run, what I actually was doing was a dive and fast run up on the six of the lead aircraft (I thought I might hit the tail unit!) and dropped my bombs in line with his fuselage (as Im flying along the axis on the fuselage anyway, I get the best chance of a hit). Bomb delay was 3 seconds.

One thing I hadnt noticed in the IL-2 vid, was the gunner opening up on the number two aircraft just as I drop the bombs in. I imagine him thinking "Your gonna die anyway, but get some of this, just coz I hate you!"

TT, SC50s against TB-3s online is the epitome of cool! I like the sound of that! ~S~ to you!

I had heard this story of Glenn Millers flight (I quite like big band stuff). Where did you find that interesting article?

Visited the last airfield he played a gig at, Kings Cliffe. About 14miles outside the city I live in. Went and photographed it after I read in the paper that vandals had trashed a memorial to him on the site if the old airfiled. Think I put the photos in my Airfield Hunting (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6901086994?r=6901086994#6901086994) thread.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Erich_Beyer
12-19-2006, 03:32 AM
in the book of heinz knoke they talk about this tecnic us by luftwaffe messerschmitt 109 g again american bombers , this was a idee of a other germain pilot name dieter gehart ,heinz and ther groupe us succefully this tecnic after the death of dieter gerhard. sometime they can blow two bomber in the same time with only one bombe...

RCAF_Irish_403
12-19-2006, 06:48 AM
Good Job Hanglands!

In the past i have been able to down exactly one 109 using the VAP250 napalm thingie<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. A 108:0 kill ratio is insignificant next to the power of the Force

http://www.fas.org/main/home.jsp

HotelBushranger
12-19-2006, 06:50 AM
I've also got a part of a chapter in a book I've got, on the experiences of Aussie aircrew in WW2. I think the bloke was a navigator, and was said the same thing: dumping Cookies into the Channel when he saw a small plane buzzing around the massive spouts (up to 4000 feet high).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

------------------------------
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You can have no idea just how hostile aircraft can be until they come to your area...
Aircraft which strafe or bomb your positions should be regarded with suspicion, if not deep mistrust. Aircraft which bomb and strafe your position and wear a red circle should certainly be regarded with deep mistrust. In fact, the deeper the better. A six-foot-deep slit trench is an ideal place from which to mistrust them...
Australian soldier VX116124
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AWL_Spinner
12-19-2006, 06:58 AM
Hanglands, I got that piece from a longer article here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2654822) which includes other crackpot theories into his disappearance.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers, Spinner

<hr class="ev_code_hr" />
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LEXX_Luthor
12-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Yes, it helps others when we poast sources for the quotes we share.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hanglands
12-21-2006, 12:19 PM
Hi,

I wasnt sure if I should post this little clip in my Taran thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3441080905?r=6071002905#6071002905) or here. But I wanted to share it because it made me laugh.

So, an I-16 with no guns, just two small bombs runs into to Ju-88s.... The first half is from the cockpit, the second half is on externals. Towards the end of the cockpit part Im just looking for a runway, but my wife distracted me and I never made it. In the external part of the clip its particularly noticable that my plane is all over the place (esp as I ram the second aircraft). I made this while uing a brand new stick, I wasnt used to having no FF. I really dont drive that badly all the time!

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/th_TaranI-16.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/?action=view&current=TaranI-16.flv)



Regards.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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general_kalle
12-21-2006, 12:38 PM
wauw. nice done hanglands.
was that from inside as in the first part of the movie or did you just change that on the replay?

if evry I16 could down 2 bombers the history would have been a bit different

nice done<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

what have you got to lose?
You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!) -life of Brian

Xiolablu3
12-21-2006, 12:45 PM
Heinz Knocke tried the same thing in WW2, its described in his book 'I flew for the fuhrer'

He had great success with his first bomb, hit a B17 and the rest of the formation scattered. But he didnt have much luck after that.

He said that it required great calculations and exceptional skill , precision flying and luck to actually hit a bomber with a bomb.

Its very interesting reading.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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