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FA_Whisky
11-10-2006, 09:33 AM
Wondering again......
Is the vertical range the same as the horizontal range?
Will a bullet have the same energy at impact at the same distance horizontal and vertical?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
11-10-2006, 12:57 PM
A bullet traveling horizontally will be decelerated by drag.

A bullet travelling upwards will be decelerated by drag and gravity.

Given the same range, the horizontal bullet will strike the target at a higher velocity, and with more kinetic energy. It is the same with missiles, which are less effective when fired at a target higher than you.

But... because of the small time for the bullet to reach the target, it would not make very much difference. Even if the bullet takes 2 seconds to reach the target, it's only a total difference of ~20m/s between horizontal and vertical. At closer ranges, there would be no noticable difference at all.

slipBall
11-10-2006, 01:19 PM
A bullet traveling horizontally will be decelerated by drag


and gravity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
11-10-2006, 08:21 PM
A bullet traveling horizontally will be decelerated by drag and gravity

Not quite. It will be accelerated by gravity... toward the ground.

But it's striking power won't be affected, since it's traveling horizontal.

majnos64
11-11-2006, 05:23 AM
It seems to me bullets in PF aren't accelerated or decelerated they only fly in some ballistic curve calculating distance and speed of your aircraft relative to target. The most advanced bullet modeling is in lockon black shark http://lockon.co.uk/index.php?end_pos=133&scr=products&lang=en
External ballistics modelling
but you have to log in to get that video. It isn't on youtube http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Philipscdrw
11-11-2006, 08:10 AM
If you're wondering if you're in range or not, you're too far away!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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NonWonderDog
11-11-2006, 10:12 AM
Fire off a few of the 50 mm shells in the Me-262 A-1a/U4 to really see the ballistics model. The shells have no self destruct time and the tracer never burns out. Fire one forward, and eventually it will be falling straight down due to drag. You should even be able catch up to the shell and blow yourself up, although no one's ever actually posted a track of this.

The ballistic model certainly appears to take drag and gravity into account.

FritzGryphon
11-11-2006, 06:37 PM
Long ago I made this chart of M2 speed versus time. The drag does seem to work realistically on the bullets.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/m2speed.jpg

And a video of that test. Ignore the numbers, I think I botched the math.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/m2ballistic.mov

And here is another test, comparing the M2 and UB bullets. Kind of hard to see, but you can make out the red and white dot. Each white marker is 250m, and the furthest marker is 2km. The black markers show 100m altitude. The bullets were fired horizontal, from 0 airspeed.



http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/compare.mov

tigertalon
11-12-2006, 01:08 AM
Original poster was asking about PF me thinks, not RL.

Since the gravity affected trajectories are modelled in PF, I'm sure bullets in PF behave very close to RL, like FritzGryphon describes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

WWMaxGunz
11-12-2006, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
Long ago I made this chart of M2 speed versus time. The drag does seem to work realistically on the bullets.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/m2speed.jpg



Looks like a parabola laid on its side but my math is very rusty.
Perhaps if I shifted an exponential curve to the left a bit?
Mach one at SL and standard is about 340 m/s which puts that bullet still over sound
even after 3 seconds flight. Yow! Can you integrate under that curve out to the time
it gets down to 340 m/s and get distance?

FritzGryphon
11-12-2006, 02:18 AM
Can you integrate under that curve out to the time
it gets down to 340 m/s and get distance?

The distance it travels until it's not supersonic? I'm not sure how to figure that out, but it would have to be somewhere between 1400-1600m.

FA_Whisky
11-12-2006, 05:21 AM
Since the gravity affected trajectories are modelled in PF, I'm sure bullets in PF behave very close to RL, like FritzGryphon describes.

If thats true; how come and LA7(example) can shoot you at 800meters horizontal, but also vertical.
And another question, what shoeld the effective range off ammo use in PF be? I think it should not be possible to actually damage a plane at 700/800meters without the use of rockets.
The rule "don't fire untill he fills your windscreen" could be based on something.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stansdds
11-12-2006, 05:25 AM
You need to know the ballistic coefficient of the bullet in order to calculate the moment where a certain speed will be achieved. Without this information, speed loss and bullet drop are guesses. I don't think IL2 calculates all of this. Rounds in IL2 follow a set arc, but I don't think they decelerate and become unstable in flight. Dispersion is modeled and that is why the rounds in IL2 don't always impact the same spot with every round fired. You have a greater chance of having the majority of rounds impacting close together at the convergence point as set in the arming screen, but I think setting the convergence points farther out than the default introduces a wider pattern due to the modeling of dispersion. The dispersion would be a combination of the inherent differences and minor deviations in trajectory of each bullet fired, the inherent accuracy potential of the gun combined with the vibration movement of the gun as it is rapidly firing.

Just my thoughts and observations.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FritzGryphon
11-12-2006, 01:59 PM
If thats true; how come and LA7(example) can shoot you at

It's a falacy that any gun in the game is immune to ballistic effects, and it's merely a whine by noobs.

I've even proved this with the UB, another often whined-about gun. Not only does it drop at the exact same rate as the M2, it's actually slower.

The shvak cannon has a higher muzzle velocity than the other 20mm cannons, and a higher rate of fire, and is therefore easier to score hits with. No more, and no less.

JamesBlonde888
11-12-2006, 09:55 PM
What are your convergence ranges?

I have mine at 150m. Not much point in firing outside your convergence range unless you don't want to hit anything.

I find that within 150m bullets are effective more often than not and cannon shells are devestating. Out side of this range you might as well forget about doing any damage without cannon.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stansdds
11-13-2006, 03:56 AM
I usually run the default convergence settings, 300m for machine guns, 500m for cannons. I agree, fire from beyond convergence range results in very few hits, but fire at or under the convergence range results in good hit potential. As you get closer to your opponent, you must also factor in the gun positions on your aircraft. This is not an issue with nose mounted guns, but with wing mounted guns you may miss you opponent at close range since the convergence point is well ahead of your opponent and the rounds can pass on either side of his fuselage and will arc over his wings. At close range, I don't aim for the fuselage, I aim for the wings and put the piper a little low to compensate for the bullet arc.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

When you know as much as I do, you become a danger only to yourself. -Stans, 2006

WWMaxGunz
11-13-2006, 07:11 PM
Dispersion =is= an angular measure, often given in mils. M2 on P-80 is 8 mils from documents.
So as with any angle, the further away you go the wider it gets.

You can fire past convergence for a fraction as the bullets pass from point back out there is
a range where all the shots fit 1 fuselage width or less. Just make sure you adjust your pipper
high or low for range below or above (same respect) convergence range, and also adjust if need
for your relative speeds as well.

Stansdds, you do BnZ a lot?

ElAurens
11-13-2006, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:


The distance it travels until it's not supersonic? I'm not sure how to figure that out, but it would have to be somewhere between 1400-1600m.

I'm no math whiz but my few years in rifle competition tells me that sounds about correct.

The main reason the 168 grain .308 match bullet was surplanted by the 175 grain bullet is that the heavier round maintains supersonic velocity past 1000 yds. Bullets become unstable when dropping below supersonic and it is a detriment to accuracy for long range shooters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stansdds
11-14-2006, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


Stansdds, you do BnZ a lot?

I usually go "BOOM" and some aircraft and body parts "zoom" skyward for a few seconds, is that what you mean? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm actually the squadron CO's wingman, so I do whatever I'm told and play follow the leader and I seem to be pretty good at it. Most of my kills result from the leader being unable to get a firing solution or over running his intended, then I'm right there and often in a perfect spot to take the kill. I do prefer to maintain an altitude advantage since I'm a Corsair jockey and a diving attack is usually the most effective, at least until you cripple the opponent. With dive bombers, it's a different story. I prefer to attack them from below where there are no defensive guns. Going against a bomber does require boom and zoom. And the Mark 8 gunsight is quite effective once you learn how to use it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

When you know as much as I do, you become a danger only to yourself. -Stans, 2006

WWMaxGunz
11-14-2006, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by stansdds:
Most of my kills result from the leader being unable to get a firing solution or over running his intended, then I'm right there and often in a perfect spot to take the kill.

But of course! No matter how hard the target can turn, from way back it's only a little bit.

You have cannon set to 500m? Past about 400m the time of flight is long enough to be evaded
and you can shoot effective past your convergence at least another 50-100m.

WWMaxGunz
11-14-2006, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
Wondering again......
Is the vertical range the same as the horizontal range?
Will a bullet have the same energy at impact at the same distance horizontal and vertical?

Be more concerned with aim in the vertical. Long shooting gets very out. The guns are tilted
to hit convergence on the sight-line and depend on gravity to warp the projectile path down to
the sight-line. You see the problem with vertical and aim? You have to aim low and it is
worse for wing guns than for nose guns that start closer to the sight-line.

Range difference is very small % over few seconds.

JamesBlonde888
11-19-2006, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by stansdds:
I usually run the default convergence settings, 300m for machine guns, 500m for cannons. I agree, fire from beyond convergence range results in very few hits, but fire at or under the convergence range results in good hit potential. As you get closer to your opponent, you must also factor in the gun positions on your aircraft. This is not an issue with nose mounted guns, but with wing mounted guns you may miss you opponent at close range since the convergence point is well ahead of your opponent and the rounds can pass on either side of his fuselage and will arc over his wings. At close range, I don't aim for the fuselage, I aim for the wings and put the piper a little low to compensate for the bullet arc.

Well I think that this is your problem.

Anything outside 250m is a total loss IMO.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Klemm.co
11-28-2006, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Well I think that this is your problem.

Anything outside 250m is a total loss IMO.
Well i guess then you didn't ever hit a plane at 800 to 1300 meters. Well, i did, and it actually exploded! I did that with 50s of course and it took a lot of them but nonetheless they still had very much effect. I'm beginning to think that the speed of the impacting bullet actually has no relation whatsoever to the damage done, the damage inflicted upon the opponent only seems to depend on the angle and type of bullet.

JamesBlonde888
11-28-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:

I did that with 50s of course and it took a lot of them

Herein lies the point.

You could have saved some for the next 2 or 3.

It took a lot of them because at 800m .50 rounds would be diverging like drunken relatives at the end of an unnsuccesful family reunion.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Klemm.co
11-29-2006, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by JamesBlonde888:
Herein lies the point.

You could have saved some for the next 2 or 3.

I know, but the two bandits were getting away from me and they would have fled or maybe ultimately shot me down.
I knew that they were practically out of range, but i tried it anyway. So i sprayed some 1-2 seconds bursts, and some stray bullets hit the one and then the other bandit, the first exploded and the second lost a wing. Sadly i can't say that i can do this routinely, but i once shot a tail off a P47 from 500 meters with my P47 and i hadn't hit him before...
Dont know if it was punching multiple 50cal bullets into his tail at the same moment or the weak tail of the P47... i found this incredibly odd the moment it happened.

BM357_Sniper
12-01-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Since the gravity affected trajectories are modelled in PF, I'm sure bullets in PF behave very close to RL, like FritzGryphon describes.

If thats true; how come and LA7(example) can shoot you at 800meters horizontal, but also vertical.
And another question, what shoeld the effective range off ammo use in PF be? I think it should not be possible to actually damage a plane at 700/800meters without the use of rockets.
The rule "don't fire untill he fills your windscreen" could be based on something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Army teaches that the Max effective range of the M2 .50 cal is just over 1800 meters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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FA_Whisky
12-02-2006, 04:50 AM
The Army teaches that the Max effective range of the M2 .50 cal is just over 1800 meters.


Its useless over 800 meters here. Cannons have the same range. You can't even see a 50call over 500 meters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JamesBlonde888
12-03-2006, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Klemm.co:

I know, but the two bandits were getting away from me and they would have fled or maybe ultimately shot me down.
I knew that they were practically out of range, but i tried it anyway. So i sprayed some 1-2 seconds bursts, and some stray bullets hit the one and then the other bandit, the first exploded and the second lost a wing. Sadly i can't say that i can do this routinely, but i once shot a tail off a P47 from 500 meters with my P47 and i hadn't hit him before...
Dont know if it was punching multiple 50cal bullets into his tail at the same moment or the weak tail of the P47... i found this incredibly odd the moment it happened.

Oh, jolly good show then. It is hard when you are in a slower a/c eh? If they are getting away I usually break off and separate. If they dissappear I continue with the patrol but sometimes they are patrolling too and you get more height and another crack.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JamesBlonde888
12-03-2006, 11:33 PM
The Army teaches that the Max effective range of the M2 .50 cal is just over 1800 meters.


That is out of a Barret telescopic rifle, not a 40's fighter.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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NonWonderDog
12-04-2006, 08:38 AM
Right, but the issue was killing power at long range. The longest confirmed kill with a .50 caliber bullet out of a sniper rifle is 1.5 miles, remember, so it's not like the round has lost all its penetration power after 800 meters.

FA_Whisky
12-04-2006, 12:27 PM
remember, so it's not like the round has lost all its penetration power after 800 meters.

true, but you should not be able to aim with a plane to shoot something moving away from you at 800 meters.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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