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cmirko
05-20-2008, 05:31 AM
Hi guys, as you probably know there are a couple of COOP dedicated server on HL by now. Some of those host different kinds of online wars (SEOW, DCG), and some are more of an open free4all servers. Team behind 102nd_COOP_ded hosts that kind of server, from community to community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Check the sig for details http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I would like to ask all of you to post your ideas about good fighter (single and twin engine) match ups. We have 4 folders (amongst others http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) of extremely simple COOPs which consist of 2v2, 4v4, 6v6 and 8v8 plane match ups. Simple dogfight scenarios - starting points of both flights are the same - head on at 5 km separation, on same alt (alt is variable to different missions, usually 3, 5 and 7km). Aircraft match ups are historical in nature and point is that the better team should win. In the continuation of post I will iterate match ups which we have so far http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - please feel free to add anything else you consider a good match up.

thx in advance and,

S!

list:
p40m_109f4
spit9e_109g10
p51d5_fw190d9
spit5b_fw190a4
p47d27_fw190a9
tempestv_fw190d9
spit8_fw190a6
F6F3_A6M5
Buff_Ki27
Buff_A6M2
Buff_Ki43
HurrIIb_Ki27
HurriIIb_A6M2
HurriIIb_Ki43
La5f_109g2
La5f_109g6
La5f_fw190a4
yak1b_109g2
yak1b_109g6
yak1b_fw190a4
p39n_109g2
p39n_109g6
p39n_fw190a4
p38l_109g14
p51d5_ki84Ib
p47D_ta152h1

DKoor
05-20-2008, 05:41 AM
Yes;


Buff_Ki27
Buff_Ki43
F6F3_A6M5
HurrIIb_Ki27
La5f_109g2
p38l_109g14
p39n_109g2
p39n_fw190a4
p47d27_fw190a9
p47D_ta152h1
p51d5_ki84Ib
tempestv_fw190d9
yak1b_109g2

JG53Frankyboy
05-20-2008, 05:49 AM
Bf110G-2 (without MK108!) _ Pe-3bis
Bf109F-4 _ P-39D-2
Ki-61 Ko/Otsu _ P-40E/M
A6M3 _ Spitfire Vc (2canon)
Bf109G-6 _ P-38J
MC200 _ Hurricane IIb
G.50 _ Hurricane I
MC200 _ I-16 Typ 18
Bf109G-6 _ F6F-3
Ki-84-Ia/b _ P-63C
Ki-27 _ I-153 M62
Fw190A-5/-6 _ F4U-1D/C
Bf109G-2 _ Spitfire IXc
CR.42 _ J8A
Fw190D-9 _ P-63C (most propably unhistorical)
Bf109E-7 _ P-40C
Mc202 _ P-40E
Mc202 _ Yak-7B
N1K2-J _ Yak-3 (unhistorical)
B-239 _ Hurricane IIFieldMod
B-239 _ I-16 Typ 18
He162A _ YP-80 (just for fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

general_kalle
05-20-2008, 07:00 AM
Spit5b - Me109F4
A6M-21 - Wildcat
IAR80 - I16
IAR81c - MiG3

TinyTim
05-20-2008, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by cmirko:
p40m_109f4
spit9e_109g10
p51d5_fw190d9
spit5b_fw190a4
p47d27_fw190a9
tempestv_fw190d9
spit8_fw190a6
F6F3_A6M5
Buff_Ki27
Buff_A6M2
Buff_Ki43
HurrIIb_Ki27
HurriIIb_A6M2
HurriIIb_Ki43
La5f_109g2
La5f_109g6
La5f_fw190a4
yak1b_109g2
yak1b_109g6
yak1b_fw190a4
p39n_109g2
p39n_109g6
p39n_fw190a4
p38l_109g14
p51d5_ki84Ib
p47D_ta152h1

Very interesting matchups!

Ki-27 vs Buffalo seems somehow skewed for me, as it is extremely hard to down a buffalo with two 7,7mm peashooters. I can recall an instance on UKD-2 (or was it 3) when I discharged entire ammosupply into one, achieving 12% hits and all I caused was a thin, barely visible brown smoke. No other visible damage whatsoever.

1v1, maybe, but 8v8 it would have been a slaughter, comparable to A6M2 vs Hellcat.

Another one: I'd rather pit a yak-9 versus G-2, and an A-6 versus La-5F, especially in 1v1.

Some more ideas:

Gladiator vs Cr-42
Beaufighter vs 110
Ki-100 vs Hellcat
Bf109E vs Yak-1
P-51D vs Yak-9U (Korea, if that counts as historical)
P-51D vs La-7 (Korea)
Yak-9U vs Bf109K-4
Yak-9U vs Fw-190D-9
J2M5 vs P-47D_Late (now we'll really see who deserves the name http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)
J2M3 vs Yak-3 (Most likely they didn't meet in Autumn Storm, so probably unhistorical)
N1K-2J vs F4U-1D
HurricaneMk1 vs I-16Type18

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-20-2008, 07:15 AM
Most all of these are good matchup with the margin of advantage quite small based on aircraft performance. All would be fun and would still mostly rely on the driver.

For that matter, fly some of the same types against each other too.

I-153/I-16 vs I-153/I-16 in the continuation war.
109G6 vs 109G6 over Romania in 1945.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-20-2008, 07:15 AM
double post

TinyTim
05-20-2008, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Most all of these are good matchup with the margin of advantage quite small based on aircraft performance. All would be fun and would still mostly rely on the driver.

For that matter, fly some of the same types against each other too.

I-153/I-16 vs I-153/I-16 in the continuation war.
109G6 vs 109G6 over Romania in 1945.

Neat idea. While at it, throw in 109E vs 109E over Yugoslavia in 1941.

Metatron_123
05-20-2008, 08:21 AM
La-7 - Ki-84 as witnessed in the excellent stock mission...

DKoor
05-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Most all of these are good matchup with the margin of advantage quite small based on aircraft performance. All would be fun and would still mostly rely on the driver.

For that matter, fly some of the same types against each other too.

I-153/I-16 vs I-153/I-16 in the continuation war.
109G6 vs 109G6 over Romania in 1945.

Neat idea. While at it, throw in 109E vs 109E over Yugoslavia in 1941. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That will be da hot in BoB SoW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ... perhaps when they introduce other (forgotten) theaters of war eventually perhaps there would be some fighters like Hawker Fury or even that Ikarus IK-3 thing which seemed like a decent fighter for its time (however I know nothing of its performance specs, so it may be possible that I'm wrong on this one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ).

DKoor
05-20-2008, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
La-7 - Ki-84 as witnessed in the excellent stock mission... That is locoramma http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif.

Bearcat99
05-20-2008, 09:14 PM
La-5 vs A6M varied...

R_Target
05-20-2008, 09:56 PM
Bf109E vs FM2

Ki-61 vs P-38J

F6F-5 vs N1K2

F6F-3 vs Ki-100

F4U-1C vs Ki-84

J2M5 vs P-51D

cmirko
05-21-2008, 12:44 AM
thx to everyone for their ideas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
i will make these missions today so you can check them later on if interested http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!


p.s. do not stop with good match ups http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WOLFMondo
05-22-2008, 04:06 AM
BF109F4 vs P39D2. Excellent match up!

DKoor
05-22-2008, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
BF109F4 vs P39D2. Excellent match up! +1

anarchy52
05-22-2008, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
La-5 vs A6M varied...

That's not a very good matchup as La-5 is superior in every aspect and by a huge margin. That is of course, if by A6M you ment the Zero, and not the FW-190A6 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SlickStick
05-22-2008, 03:28 PM
I personally love Spitfire Vc versus any Bf-109 pre-1942. The 109-G2 in-game is a bit of a beast for 1942 planesets, but even that one is a fun match-up against the Vc. Although, the G2 can totally dictate when and where the fight occurs, it's fun making up the difference with the right application of skill and grey matter. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I also like the later scenarios of Spitfire Mk. VIII/IX vs. Ki-84 or 109s/FWs of the same years.

ImMoreBetter
05-22-2008, 04:11 PM
Bf110G-2 (without MK108!) _ Pe-3bis

Lol, I had some good fun with this one the other night.

Stiletto-
05-22-2008, 05:29 PM
TB-3 vs. TB-3

Xiolablu3
05-22-2008, 07:05 PM
I really love BF109F4 vs SPitfire Vc2,

I much prefer to be in the Bf109F4 but either will do.


Also Fw190A4 vs SPitfire Vc, however I hate flying the SPitfire in this matchup, the A4 is just too awesome for it.


However does it have to be 1vs 1? Can we not have some 2 types vs 2 types planeset suggestions, or even 4vs4 etc types?

EG:-

Bf109F4,Fw190A4,Me110, Macchi vs Spitfire Vc4,Hurri2C,P40,Beaufighter or Mossie.

1 vs 1 to the death is very unrealistic, why would someone be forced to fight to the death? WHy can he not decide to disengage if he loses the advantage as IRL?

gkll
05-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

1 vs 1 to the death is very unrealistic, why would someone be forced to fight to the death? WHy can he not decide to disengage if he loses the advantage as IRL?

This view is expressed a <lot> on the forum nowadays, every so often I feel I have to push back a little.

Say you have to control some airspace, and there is a bandit in that airspace. How are you going to deal with that by HnR or disengaging? Gotta kill the baddie, no option, you know, war...... not everyone got to go jaunting about on hunting missions. Lots and lots of different mission parameters and requirements for fighters, in the scheme of war 'free hunt' had to be uncommon?

Interception duties, escort duties, ground attack, recon, prob all of these were more common than 'kill baddies if you can without risk, if things look dicey you can bug out and try sector A4...' how does that read compared to RL mission objectives? What exactly is historical in these terms, ie the average mission requirements?

I guess I see too many people patting each other on the back for having mastered 'free hunt with the advantage only' and then talking up the 'RL' angle, as if this were the norm for a typical fighter pilot on a typical mission. The majority were defending bridges, escorting bombers, etc etc, ie <controlling airspace> for discrete purposes.

julian265
05-23-2008, 03:43 AM
^ Which is when one, or a small number of the squad attempt to disengage, possibly drawing enemy aircraft away.

I think that what you say applies to a group of fighters, but not individuals. It's suicide to maintain an attack from an unfavourable position, in aircraft that don't handle sustained maneuvers very well, however a wing/squadron/etc could maintain a constant presence.

rnzoli
05-23-2008, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by gkll:
I guess I see too many people patting each other on the back for having mastered 'free hunt with the advantage only' and then talking up the 'RL' angle, as if this were the norm for a typical fighter pilot on a typical mission. The majority were defending bridges, escorting bombers, etc etc, ie <controlling airspace> for discrete purposes. You are 100% correct on this one and only a few brave souls dare to speak out loud against it.

The funny thing is that the "wise guy" (typically B&Z) attitude isn't more realistic than the arcade T&B-fest. I know it's hard to swallow, but the "attack only from advatage otherwise run" type of approach is a gamey one, too. You can get huge game scores with it, but it would qualify you as a coward in certain RL situations, where you had to stand your ground some times, even if that mean you were going to die.

After reading Pierre Clostermann's wonderful book, I think he symbolizes the best combination of being careful (not risking too much, e.g., aborting strafing runs), being dutyful (pressing on with strafing runs when it was really important) and being lucky to some extent. He writes vividly about being scared, being afraid, because he may have tried to be maximally careful in every mission, but the mission goals set a boundary of his options and he had to complete the missions and survive within those boudaries. When to run and when to fight was not always his choice.

* edit * Here is the real brave man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDGzT-0zSZA
Salute!

TinyTim
05-23-2008, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
1 vs 1 to the death is very unrealistic, why would someone be forced to fight to the death? WHy can he not decide to disengage if he loses the advantage as IRL?

While I tend to agree generally, I have also had some fabulous moments with IL2 in totally unhistorical scenarios. Afterall, IL2 is a simulation, dare I say game, and our task is not to recreate history, but to have fun, so why not, here and there, have an utterly unhistorical scenario? I've had some great fun having "unrealistic" 1v1 matches, when both planes approach head on, same altitude, without firing and with lights/smoke on, and after they pass they turn lights n smoke off and go guns hot. After 3 matches, pilots switch their mounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I mostly enjojed SpitIX vs 109G2 or SpitIX vs K4 in this scenario. Also Stuka D5 vs IL-2 Type 3 (not M) can be great fun!

rnzoli
05-23-2008, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
After 3 matches, pilots switch their mounts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Yes, that's really fun for me too.

The co-op format lends a hand to such quick switch of sides, because the planes will always start exactly in same position, same altitude, ready to engage. So the only variables are the arming details and the pilot skills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
05-23-2008, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
However does it have to be 1vs 1? Can we not have some 2 types vs 2 types planeset suggestions, or even 4vs4 etc types?
I forgot to respond to this comment earlier.
The fact is that 2vs2 and 4vs4 match-ups were already created on this server, see the existing scenarios here:
http://161.53.204.25/Server/stats-coop.html#97_4v4_Quick_Dogfight_Mission

They are also great fun. In them however, the element of pilot skill diminishes a bit, and team work comes into play (including teamwork with an AI wingman, if that's the setup).

SlickStick
05-23-2008, 08:13 AM
Unless I misread, I thought the original post was about plane types. I didn't think it meant 1 pilot versus 1 pilot, but maybe I didn't read close enough.

Although, I still like to run a 1 vs 1 server every now and then. I enjoy the duel aspect, as it is a fun and enjoyable way to match wits and skills with someone.

My server rules are that my guest may fly any plane (I usually fly my baby the Spitfire Mk. VIII CW, except when my guest chooses the +25lbs., then I'll usually match planes for obvious reasons), both spool-up and take-off at the same time, engage at will, fight to the bail/death. I use take-off ON, because in my opinion, a clean take-off and climb to the engagement is a key part of the skill set in this game.

I like to always fly the VIII CW, as it allows me to measure the performance against all of the available planes over consecutive matches. Years ago, I used to use the La5FN for this server.

I give my guests the option to bail after each kill or to stay in the air for the next engagement, if they wish. I always bail after the kill to restart equally, so I do not discourage my guest, but I also do not mind having to do a little work to beat a bandit that is already above me with E and altitude. It's good practice.

I keep a personal tally in a notebook of all the opponents that I've faced over the years and I score it as 1 point for a kill (whether the guest bails, crashes during maneuvers or otherwise goes down) and -1 point for my own deaths of the same type. Both going down/having to bail is a kill and a death.

The settings are usually all switches left except Externals ON, unless my guest prefers short icons or such. CRT=2, MAX LAG at 0.5S NEAR, 1.0S FAR, Speed Check at 2 secs, 2%.

Anyone feel free to stop by sometime in HL, if you're up for a challenge with a wiley 7 year veteran of this game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-23-2008, 08:57 AM
What's the name of your server?

Now that ASE is kaput, I'm using Xfire and will mark it as a server to watch.

SlickStick
05-23-2008, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
What's the name of your server?

Now that ASE is kaput, I'm using Xfire and will mark it as a server to watch.

It's not a dedicated server, but you'll see me in the top slot of a dogfight game in HL, ready for launch. Or as a launched game with two people in it. I've been slacking lately and doing REAL work, but I usually try to fly a few times a week during EST weeknights.

I'm about to finalize my Xfire installation and get that going soon. So, I could most likely put a game up there as well.

Pickins have been a bit slim for matches lately, so it would be good to have some fresh challengers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

It's the fun and challenge of the duel that I most enjoy. Sure, winning is fun, but losing doesn't detract from the learning experience for me either. I try to learn something from every win and loss in my efforts to further my improvement as a virtual pilot.

The man who stops learning, is the man who stops growing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
05-24-2008, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
It's the fun and challenge of the duel that I most enjoy. Sure, winning is fun, but losing doesn't detract from the learning experience for me either. I try to learn something from every win and loss in my efforts to further my improvement as a virtual pilot.

The man who stops learning, is the man who stops growing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif