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Fafnir_6
05-06-2006, 01:13 AM
Hello All,

I have just been reading this thread:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb....topic;f=144;t=004721 (http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=144;t=004721)

and I must say I've been very struck by community's obvious enthusiasm for the Hs123 and Hs129. I'm a huge fan of these two aircraft and the the fact that only one is in the game as AI (with a crappy 3d model to boot) and the other is not present at all is one of the greatest gripes I have about the FB series. Both of these aircraft were present in large numbers on the Eastern front and existed in front line service for several years. I'm very sure no one will argue against this.

Rather than complain about how we're getting a Ta183A-1 instead of these very cool and very necessary aircraft, I have decided to try and build a business case for a "Schlachtgeschwader" pay add-on (that's the way things seem to be going) including flyable Hs123 and flyable Hs129 (and maybe a Hawker Typhoon for the allies). Luthier's crew is no doubt getting quite adept at adding all these new late-war birds to the engine, so I figure it couldn't be that much more of an investment for them to add just 2-3 other types to the engine. Given the kind of support I see here for our neglected Henschels I'm sure such an add-on would sell quite well and has the potential to add a fair bit of revenue to Oleg's coffers for use in the BOB project...Everybody benefits.

I have quite a few references they could potentially use, and I'm sure we could all pool our resources to get Oleg & co. the information they need to implement these two types. If they raise the old "we don't have enough information to render these" argument, I think we could just point to the Ta183 and BI and smile.

Send Hs123, Hs129 and Typhoon refs to fafnir@interbaun.com so I can send them on to Oleg & Co.

Hs123A-1 - Standard Biplane Attack
Hs123B-1 - as above but with metal wing (slightly tougher DM and wing texture)
Hs123 loadouts:
droptank+
4 small underwing bombs a la Bf109E-4B
or
1 big bomb on centerline
or
2 20mm gunpods???

Hs129B-2 as we have it in game but with a cockpit and a nice 3D model
Hs129B-3Wa as above

Hawker Typhoon Late (with the tempest style bubble canopy -- less work with cockpit modelling)

I am eager to see what the community has to say to this idea and I pledge to donate my time to pursue this with Oleg & Co if there is sufficient interest.

Cheers and thanks for your time,

Fafnir_6

csThor
05-06-2006, 01:26 AM
I fear your proposal is coming too late - over a year too late. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

A dedicated Schlachtflieger AddOn would have had an enormous echo in the community. Not "just" the planes but also the necessary loadouts as well as the right squadrons with the correct markings. Too bad - a lost chance. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

Gibbage1
05-06-2006, 01:39 AM
Sadly, the Hs129 cockpit has been passed around more then a joint at a rege concert. Nobody was able to finish it.

Fafnir_6
05-06-2006, 01:41 AM
No hope at all??? Surely Oleg & Co. can see the obvious benefits of producing this...Retained fan loyalty, increased revenue for relatively little effort, the essential completion of the Eastern front (only a few things missing) so that they can concentrate on new and different theatres for BOB.

The voice of the community has resulted in changes before...perhaps that will happen here.

@Gibbage1 Is there a copy kicking around??? It might speed things up if I had it to pass to a willing modeller.

Fafnir_6

csThor
05-06-2006, 01:51 AM
Fafnir - Maddox Games has drastically cut back support for the Il-2 engine. All those 3D objects, planes and maps coming were made by 3rd Party Developers with little or no involvement of Maddox Games. Their part is "just" to incorporate all those objects into the engine and perhaps fix some bugs, but that's it. The Pe-2 AddOn has shown just how close to the end of support Il-2 is - the Pe-2 lacks a lot of its historical loadouts (most prominently the PTAB bomblets and rockets). Oleg has also rejected the request for Panzerblitz rockets for the Fw 190 F-8 (a historical loadout and a huge gap in the F-8's inventory) because it would take too much time. Given that the PB1 was simply a R4M with a new warhead this shows that hoping for much more in this sim (in the original Il-2 FB/AEP/PF, that is) is pretty futile. At least I think so ...

Fafnir_6
05-06-2006, 02:00 AM
Perhaps the 3rd party modelling community is where we should concentrate our efforts then...People that know the 3D side of building planes for IL-2 like the backs of their hands could put these together pretty quickly (especially if we had a half complete cockpit to start with).

As far as flight models are concerned, the existing Hs129B-2 and Hs129B-3Wa FMs will need major tweaking but the basic framework already exists. Luthier & Co. are still doing lots of this (see the link in my initial post) and might be persuaded to make lots of us happy.

The Hs123A-1 or B-1 (pick one) doesn't have any fancy avionics and such to model and could even be just AI if we can't get anything else. I think with the appropriate levels of communication between the various parties needed to complete something like this and given enough community support, I don't see why this can't happen.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

Edit: Both planes have just one cockpit (no gunners) and a large chunk of the cockpit items are already rendered in other aircraft and could possibly be borrowed for use here.

WWMaxGunz
05-06-2006, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
has been passed around more then a joint at a rege concert.

Cheech and Chong: Only if you roll ..big.. joints.

DuxCorvan
05-06-2006, 08:39 AM
Fafnir, unfortunately, all the new planes you are seeing lately were planned, made and sent looooong ago -more than a year and a half ago- before Oleg Co. simply stablished a time limit for new projects to be finished and sent. For example, the Pe-2 have been on the fridge for about two years, and Jippo sent *many* versions of the Ju 88 about a year and a half ago, only getting one to be lately included.

It's not only modelling and skinning the models, it's a lot of work to adapt them to Il-2 engine and code everything in.

Ta-183 is in because someone modelled it a long ago, keeping all the complex requirements needed to have it in without distracting too many resources from Maddox team -a point that has meant the doom of a lot of projects.

There is simply no time to have the Henschel planes in -a pity since I love those planes- but even when there was time, it was not easy for 3rd party models to make them following the necesary guidelines -and hence, no guarrantee of their inclusion.

Sorry lad. But I encourage you to translate your proposal for the next Maddox air sim engine: SoW/BoB. For that, there is time yet! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fafnir_6
05-07-2006, 01:03 AM
I understand that if I approach 1C Maddox with this, they will basically laugh in my face, given the enormous work associated with producing BOB.

I have decided then, to pursue this through Luthier and Saqson over at RRG Studios (currently waiting for a response to an e-mail sent on a Saturday) as they are still doing a lot of work with the FB engine. If they respond positively to the question: Will you include the Hs123 and Hs129 in the game engine if we give you the 3D models error-free and textured for use in a paid add-on? Then all we need to do is get the 3D modellers and texture artists out there to get us these things so we can send them in.

Does anybody know how to contact the following people:

1)Oberon (from waaay back in 2002 on il2center regarding his Hs123 external mesh)
2)Voicu??? & Hammerd??? who were responsible for the Tempest.
***LukeFF started an Hs129 cockpit a long time ago but regularily visits simhq --no problems there. He has already stated his willingness to help in this endeavor with references and such.

Given all this, the scope of the project could then be:

1)Hs123 External model (new build consisting of all new LODs)
2)Hs123 Cockpit (new build)
(the Hs123A-1 and Hs123B-1 are so alike that there isn't a point to making separate versions in the game. we will just use texturing to differentiate).
3)Hs129B-2 External model (new build or modify the existing LOD0 IL-2 model)
4)Hs129B-2 Cockpit (new build)
5)Hs129B-3Wa External model (new build or modify the existing LOD0 IL-2 model)
6)Hs129B-3Wa Cockpit (new build modified from Hs129B-2 cockpit -- small changes only)
7)Typhoon Late External model (hopefully modified from the Tempest in game)
8)Typhoon late cockpit (hopefully modified from the Tempest in game)

***Typhoon late has a Tempest-style bubble canopy.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

P.S. the response has been overwhelmingly positive for this idea over at simhq -- very heartening.

P.P.S. The Hs129 is already in the game and the workload could be lessened by only making a new high-detail level model of the Hs129 versions and just keeping the existing low detail level models. We NEED new wheels though, the square ones there now are piss me off every time I see them.

SaQSoN
05-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Forget it. Period.

Fafnir_6
05-07-2006, 02:07 AM
Thanks for the response, it's nice to get a definitive yes or no from the officials. It never hurts to ask about the feasiblity of this stuff, though personally I think this is a missed opportunity for everyone. Who knows, perhaps there will be a flyable Hs129 in BOB in 2011.

Cheers and sorry I didn't think of this a year ago,

Fafnir_6

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 02:32 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I would have completely supported this, but Vladimir just posted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Hoarmurath
05-07-2006, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Forget it. Period.

Come on, it would have made much more sense to get an addon with planes like the Hs123 that was widely used on the eastern front, than a "what if" 1946, or even whatever is planned to come thereafter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So, what about a big hug and a cookie, and we can continue hoping? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

F19_Olli72
05-07-2006, 02:56 AM
And thats why i hope Oleg makes a wanted/needed list that he will only accept 3d modellers work from for BoB. This would be best option to at least make a complete plane-list as possible for each nation, rather than they start with fantasyplanes right at the start.

As i understand modelling for BoB standards will be much more demanding, and it would be a waste to get a hotch potch of fantasy and theatre unrelated planes right away at least when other types are missing.

Lets hope for Henschel 123 for BoF addon then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

WWMaxGunz
05-07-2006, 03:32 AM
The BoB : SOW models will be much more detailed including weight distribution. Better then.

Ugly_Kid
05-07-2006, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
And thats why i hope Oleg makes a wanted/needed list that he will only accept 3d modellers work from for BoB.

Quite, the oncoming 46 stuff that kiddos will surely find cool tells me just essentially the same as my wife has been telling me for years - you're too old for this sh!te. I am a simmer, not a gamer, and here the latter fraction seems to be dominant when dictating the content.

DuxCorvan
05-07-2006, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
And thats why i hope Oleg makes a wanted/needed list that he will only accept 3d modellers work from for BoB.

Quite, the oncoming 46 stuff that kiddos will surely find cool tells me just essentially the same as my wife has been telling me for years - you're too old for this sh!te. I am a simmer, not a gamer, and here the latter fraction seems to be dominant when dictating the content. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, Ugly. But, unfortunately for us, this dominant fraction is also an important source of beans for Oleg & Co.'s dishes. Air sims are commercial products which need to sell well and make money in order to exist. So, expect a lot of candy here and there. Anyway, of all the 'cool' 1946 stuff, only Ta-183 and BI-3 are more or less fictional. Most other planes gave service during or immediatly after the war. Ar 234 had even a discrete but significant role as fast bomber in the last months of war.

What I dislike most, is all the people constantly asking for last-minute uber types of their preferred mounts with the only purpose of kicking a$$ in the DF servers. That's not simming at all.

Hence, I'd support Hs 123 and 129 as historical, scenario integrated elements. But, as I told Fafnir -despite his insistent deafness to my arguments- and SaQSoN simply confirmed, the time of FB is coming to an end.

Time to prepare our moving to BoB.

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 06:03 AM
What I dislike most, is all the people constantly asking for last-minute uber types of their preferred mounts with the only purpose of kicking a$$ in the DF servers. That's not simming at all.

I think you have summed it up perfectly mate, well done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

MucusG
05-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Quote

What I dislike most, is all the people constantly asking for last-minute uber types of their preferred mounts with the only purpose of kicking a$$ in the DF servers. That's not simming at all.


Couldnt agree more. For me its historical match ups. I also much rather the earlier planes without uber weapons that take a single deflection shot and your stuffed. I like the more lightly armed early war stuff where you really had to fly well, not just shoot well (sadly I am not good at either, but having fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

general_kalle
05-09-2006, 02:25 AM
yea id like to try that huge 75 mm gun on the he129!!!

GerritJ9
05-09-2006, 02:52 AM
At least there is a substitute for the Hs-123 in the Fiat CR-42. It's not the same........ but it is close.

PBNA-Boosher
05-09-2006, 09:28 AM
Sorry Fafnir, but it's a big no go. Deadline is met, nobody will model the planes or cockpits, and there's no more time for this game. Move on, I suggest, fly with what we have and be happy.