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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:53 AM
But hopefully someday the bugs will be worked out and the game will gain some consistency. Granted the FB game has a lot of good qualities, but there are arguably more nuisances with the patch than before, it fixed some problems and created as many more new problems. Next time, it seems like it would be better to fix what is already there first, before worrying about any more new "features".

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:53 AM
But hopefully someday the bugs will be worked out and the game will gain some consistency. Granted the FB game has a lot of good qualities, but there are arguably more nuisances with the patch than before, it fixed some problems and created as many more new problems. Next time, it seems like it would be better to fix what is already there first, before worrying about any more new "features".

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:59 AM
M_C_D wrote:
- But hopefully someday the bugs will be worked out
- and the game will gain some consistency.

Could be worse.. They could be as consistant as the STRIKE FIGHTERS patches.

- Granted the FB game has a lot of good qualities,

Granted, Noted, and Apreciated every time I compair it to ANY othe sim maker to date.

- but there are arguably more nuisances with the
- patch than before,

Arguably.. Agreed! I would argue that we dont know how many things where fixed, thus, hard to make such a call.

- it fixed some problems and created as many more new
- problems.

As many? I would love to see the before and after list your working from! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Next time, it seems like it would be
- better to fix what is already there first, before
- worrying about any more new "features".

Now that I do agree with 100%!!



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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:03 AM
if U have <anything> 2 do wtih 1cmaddox sayso or shuttup

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:33 AM
Well it's not like there is a sim even close to FB on the market.

nic

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:35 PM
I'm actualy in the software support business on commercial systems and what actualy surprises me is that software like IL2 works at all.

I was researching failiure rates recently and dug up te NASA software development guidelines. there were some interesting quotes and facts.

For example hot from the programmers there will be about 7 faults every 100 lines. Now how many Mb of FB source code is there?

This software is developped in very short development cycles for a short product lifecycle and cramming in as many features as the zoo of whiners out there are screaming for.

Then what realy amazes me is that you the customer pay zero recurrent maintenance fees, get free technical support and free patches.

So overall my opinion is that FB quality levels are about as good/bad as the rest. Whatever happens there will continue to be bugs.

I would also invite all the critics who think they are programmers (that means they can use a mouse and type with two fingers) to post a sample of their source code so that we can look at the level of structure, application of standards, level of documentation in their code

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Zayets
08-27-2003, 12:56 PM
ptthome wrote:
- I'm actualy in the software support business on
- commercial systems and what actualy surprises me is
- that software like IL2 works at all.

So , you think you're fecken smart,aren't ya?

- I was researching failiure rates recently and dug up
- te NASA software development guidelines. there were
- some interesting quotes and facts.

Probably there's somebody else writing your reports.

- For example hot from the programmers there will be
- about 7 faults every 100 lines. Now how many Mb of
- FB source code is there?

Examples , pal! Examples! Who evaluated the lines of code? This is stupid ! Only by making this statement in front of your developers! I know it! If you , as manager , or whatever you are , lose the support of developer , you will have to quit your job! And you will find more than 7 faults at 100 lines.

- This software is developped in very short
- development cycles for a short product lifecycle and
- cramming in as many features as the zoo of whiners
- out there are screaming for.

Gues what! People here , on Earth , play a game everyday ! Is not the same cycle as launching a satelite or a shuttle.

- Then what realy amazes me is that you the customer
- pay zero recurrent maintenance fees, get free
- technical support and free patches.

Maintenace? What a heck you're talking about? Free tech support? This we got here , on these boards , pal! And is done by the community with the large support of Hunter (thank you for being such a guy!) , and he's not an UBI/1C guy. Free patches? Patches are done because ppl discovered things working the wrong way. And yes! They must be free! Add-ons , well , this is another story.

- So overall my opinion is that FB quality levels are
- about as good/bad as the rest. Whatever happens
- there will continue to be bugs.

Yeah!Been there done that! Don't hold your breath though!

- I would also invite all the critics who think they
- are programmers (that means they can use a mouse and
- type with two fingers) to post a sample of their
- source code so that we can look at the level of
- structure, application of standards, level of
- documentation in their code

Just because you are born during the times Ritchie came up with C language doesn't make ya a 10 finger programmer. As for mouse programming , believe it or not , is really possible these days. People like you , so called perfectionist , took care to built such tools for "every programmer". See Visual suite from Microsoft for refference. Where do I have to post my code? Geeez! Thank god I don't work in the same team as you!

Have a good one! And don't look back! You are too good.



Zayets out

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:11 PM
Ouch Zayets that even stung me/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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Message Edited on 08/27/0301:12PM by SmokeJaguar

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:31 PM
yeah Zayets, ease back the throttle, willya! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

you make me quite afraid to post my opinion on these forums from now on! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:38 PM
Zayets, what the heck are you on?

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

Zayets
08-27-2003, 01:47 PM
Fresshness wrote:
- yeah Zayets, ease back the throttle, willya! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- you make me quite afraid to post my opinion on these
- forums from now on! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-

Sorry for the aggressive post but I have seen so many things like that and I'm sick of them! Yeah! Let's throw all over developers , they are doing 7 mistakes at 100 lines of raw code. This is the typical mistake managers/producers you name it! re doing it! Great games/other software were trashed just because of this so called "effective thinking". Well , you guys , with that code how do you think you can came up with it? I took my pals and checked your code , while you were home and guess what? you have errors! Imagine that you're a developer , the big moron came in and announce a meeting (mostly because he's bored). So , all the scum (developers) are gathered and he say : at every 7th line , you guys have an error. now , you as a programmer with 15 years of experience , delivering in time and knowing that this is almost impossible (that does not means you don't have errors) , so , what would you do? Stick your finger up in the air and take a day off. Tommorow one , day after tomorrow another one and by the end of the week the big moron is replaced because deadline was not respected.Eh? how about that? I've been too much in this doodoo not to know how the things are going on. Funny stuff is that I got support for my team from the CEO himself which was really curious how the things were going. Thank god he was a man with a brain , not like that moron. Nowaday when we cross each other he avoid to look into my eyes.
So , to conclude this (off topic post) , is bad enough that the crowd put pressure on a product (nothing wrong here , they are the clients) , but then comes the "expert" and post this report wich fits exactly like the nut in the wall. That's the bad thing , approach!
And yes , sorry again for the aggressive post.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:53 PM
Zayets wrote:

- Sorry for the aggressive post but I have seen so
- many things like that and I'm sick of them! Yeah!
- Let's throw all over developers , they are doing
- 7 mistakes at 100 lines of raw code. This is
- the typical mistake managers/producers you name it!

I'm quite sure that he only meant to say that creating fault-free code is nigh-on impossible and we should be thankful that FB is as good as it is. I don't think that warranted such an explosion.


--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:53 PM
What`s yer point,Zayets?

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:57 PM
Zayets, you have the right to vent, I am not trying to take away that right from you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

anyway, let us conclude this thread my saying that as long as humans are the ones who do the actual programming, there will be bugs and errors in the code they write.

From the moment our global efforts to make an AI (a real one) have come to fruition, we will reap the benefits of 100% bugfree code.

Until then, enjoy FB! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Zayets
08-27-2003, 02:05 PM
OK, I will close it here with this post. joques resumed it pretty much. This is the part that pi$$ed me off:

I would also invite all the critics who think they
- are programmers (that means they can use a mouse and
- type with two fingers) to post a sample of their
- source code so that we can look at the level of
- structure, application of standards, level of
- documentation in their code

Rest of the post , well , I ussually ignore such expert thinking. Seen many of them. but that was the cherry on the top. Look at that : "level of structure" - what books are ya reading? "application of standards" - which standards? Common ones or ones reccomended/imposed by the team? "level of documentation in their code" - now , this one deserves more attention. This is the thing ppl are affraid of. if mister X leaves the company , then even the dumbest guy could take it over. Which is a false assmuption. granted , is always better to document your code and every programmer is doing that (well , more or less but we are talking here about 10 fingers ones , right?). I have seen companies were was a strict rule to document EVERY line of code (but that was on deffence , is easy to uderstand)., but what's the use of doing that on such a piece of code:

// a being the limit of resource make sure that b , being the current ressource, is not greater than a

If b > a then
// do your stuff

That was it.


Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:31 PM
Actually Zayets, I do think his point was that creating bug-free code is impossible, and that all the whiners that complain "ooh der iz a bug in da code vich sumtims maks a blk pixel appir on mah screen" should try it for themselves and see if they can catch every bug the first time out.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:29 PM
bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, and thats the way it is.

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:44 PM
I'm not quite sure what Zayets is talking about, but it's always nice to read his posts.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:47 PM
IL-2/FB has been consistently fun for over 2 years and I'm glad I've stuck with it.

There have ALWAYS beed many stupid bugs, and sometimes I get frustrated. For instance, the current sound problems, and the uberness of the Wfr.Gr.21 "roskets". Life is short. Do good things and have fun.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:17 PM
Well well well...

Sorry I've not been back to this post since Zeyets threw his toys out of the pram but I've been working.

Thank's Zeyets for your frank submission of code. Good choice - the English language so that we can all understand it.

But - I'm afraid if we go by syntax, spelling and the other stuff that screw up otherwise good code you average rather more than 7 mistakes per thousand lines.

Hense, your employer just lost his contract. I hope you have a good chance on the job exchange.

However - for the rest of you guys, glad you got the point that there will be bugs in code and Maddox isn't worse than the rest - and we have very high expectations.

Now on a more interesting note - there are techniques to produce a bug free solution - despite bugged code and faulty specifications.

Now if you take the example of the navigation software on the shuttle, this was considered to be mission critical.

So they took three programmers and three analysts and produced three programs - which are run in parralel - the results are compared and an answer is displayed if at least two of the results are identical.

Now this is possible on high budget code that was relatively simple in logic but high in mathamatics and - get the context was/is running on a 32k computer.

However, I do not suggest that the apply this approach to FB - I for one would not accept the impact on fps of this approach, and I would not want to wait for the new "candy" and toys.

So there are bugs, let's celebrate - they are giving us what we ask for, pay for and deserve.

Meanwhile Oleg... the mirror doesn't work in my hurricane....how about a quick fix... preferably one that will also screw up the 109 FM


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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:38 PM
If you put FM/DM aside...there are not whole alot of bugs left in FB... Then you put aside inability of quiet a few users to maintain their computers...then there will whole alot less bugs in FB...and they you throw in money factor...meaning top of the line rig vs system requirements...then even less bugs... just my 02c.
Once again, i still believe that UBI/1C should be honest about system specs...and that is worse then any bugs IMO.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:42 PM
I think fb needs the people from the cfs2/3 1% team to help them with fms. 1c rather use pilot stories to help them with fms manuevering, but propaganda was used by all sides.

Stick with the charts


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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:44 PM
Maybe they should hire you Lead, as head technical advisor /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:01 PM
fjuff79's sig is cool!

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:13 PM
M_C_D wrote:
- Don't worry, not every programmer can be an ace ...
- But hopefully someday the bugs will be worked out
- and the game will gain some consistency. Granted the
- FB game has a lot of good qualities, but there are
- arguably more nuisances with the patch than before,
- it fixed some problems and created as many more new
- problems. Next time, it seems like it would be
- better to fix what is already there first, before
- worrying about any more new "features".

It's obvious that none of the programmers are aces, as the way trim was implemented in FB you could tell that the programmers did not have a clue about gameplay. In fact, all of the cool (and simple) things we ask for in multiplayer (ex host adjustable padlock, host turn offable skin download, plane markings restrictions, external views allowable only on the ground, etc) are ignored. It's high time they stopped adding new planes and concentrated on what it takes to make the GAME better. No, the programmers are no aces, that's for sure. They probably never even fly online.




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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:14 AM
Neither do you.



Lixma,

Blitzpig.