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View Full Version : The .50 is overrated



zugfuhrer
08-31-2006, 10:23 AM
Look what it can do, and cant, to old japanese steel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQ1W3qobys&NR

Some pilots carried a samurai sword in the cockpit, now I think I know why.

Jaws2002
08-31-2006, 10:28 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The sword split 7-8 bullets before it failed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

hotspace
08-31-2006, 10:37 AM
Bloody hell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Breeze147
08-31-2006, 11:08 AM
Audio/visual trickery!!! To break a Kitana with a .50 cal, you must skip the bullets to the target!! Amateurs!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

R_Target
08-31-2006, 11:14 AM
Delta steel H@X.

Divine-Wind
08-31-2006, 11:16 AM
It's a Katana-shaped Yak!

MEGILE
08-31-2006, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
Delta steel H@X.

+1

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 11:33 AM
Those shells had flat heads---they were not armor-piercing rounds. Jiggered test. AP probably would have snapped it with the first hit.

I think this was supposed to be some metaphysical demonstration of Japanese spiritual superiority---the sword is the spirit of Japan. The fifty is the mechanical, unspiritual U.S. Bleah!

HayateAce
08-31-2006, 11:38 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/REPIN_Ivan_Terrible%26Ivan.jpg

Tater-SW-
08-31-2006, 11:43 AM
Not a good test. If the round hit slightly off-center, it could easily take off the copper jacket.

tater

Vrabac
08-31-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Those shells had flat heads---they were not armor-piercing rounds. Jiggered test. AP probably would have snapped it with the first hit.

No need. They should have just aimed for the ground and the bullets would hit the katana from below. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif On the other hand, 380mm shell would have snapped it with first hit as well, no? Those are still machinegun bullets, any way you turn it.


I think this was supposed to be some metaphysical demonstration of Japanese spiritual superiority---the sword is the spirit of Japan. The fifty is the mechanical, unspiritual U.S. Bleah!

Yep. I'm also sure test was financed by Syria and supported by Iran. Gunner was trained by Al Qaida in Afghanistan too I guess. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 11:55 AM
Yamato spirit

Xiolablu3
08-31-2006, 12:15 PM
AP would be more likely to be deflected off the blade, they have very pointed heads.

Jaws2002
08-31-2006, 12:22 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Teh fifties have been </span><span class="ev_code_RED">OWNED</span><span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> by a sword</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 12:26 PM
Gimme a break---a .50 cal. AP coming in at about 1500 fps deflected? The hardened point would have crumpled that sword edge like aluminum foil. Those rounds were designed to penetrate hardened 1" plates on light armored vehicles. They were using light, flat-headed anti-personnel rounds designed to blow huge holes in humans in that test. Banzai!

R_Target
08-31-2006, 12:34 PM
They could open the canopy and use the sword to deflect bullets like Luke Skywalker.

MEGILE
08-31-2006, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/REPIN_Ivan_Terrible%26Ivan.jpg

UnLucky HayateAce http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
08-31-2006, 12:38 PM
Is there a graph for sword bullet caliber deflection?

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 12:49 PM
Yes, it was in MNT#678D: MANUAL: 50 CALIBER BROWNING, page 81: "Penetration Tables For Edge-On Impact With Samurai Swords of Various Manufacturers" (copyright US Army, 1945).

LStarosta
08-31-2006, 12:50 PM
This is exactly why Japan lost the war.

faustnik
08-31-2006, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Yes, it was in MNT#678D: MANUAL: 50 CALIBER BROWNING, page 81: "Penetration Tables For Edge-On Impact With Samurai Swords of Various Manufacturers" (copyright US Army, 1945).

Can someone post that, we need to get it to Oleg for the Samurai '46 addon.

Jaws2002
08-31-2006, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Gimme a break---a .50 cal. AP coming in at about 1500 fps deflected? The hardened point would have crumpled that sword edge like aluminum foil. Those rounds were designed to penetrate hardened 1" plates on light armored vehicles. They were using light, flat-headed anti-personnel rounds designed to blow huge holes in humans in that test. Banzai!


I don't see here the type of ammo you are talking about:
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

Xiolablu3
08-31-2006, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Gimme a break---a .50 cal. AP coming in at about 1500 fps deflected? The hardened point would have crumpled that sword edge like aluminum foil. Those rounds were designed to penetrate hardened 1" plates on light armored vehicles. They were using light, flat-headed anti-personnel rounds designed to blow huge holes in humans in that test. Banzai!

You would have to hit the edge of the sword absolutely dead on with the AP bullet for it to rip thru it like it does thru a vehicle side.

Any tiny miss and it going to be deflected away.

You cannot compare a razor sharp samuri sword with the flat side of a jeep.

The rounds they were using on that test would be travelling just as fast at that distance, so speed is not a factor.

The strength of the steel is not the important factor (although that sword must be incredibley strong to withstand 8 rounds of 50 cal whatever the bullets used), its the factor of hitting hte razor sharp edge of the blade with a pin sharp bullet head. Remember why Tanks use sloping armour on the front? take that factor and times it by 1000.

In my opinon, we are never going to find out because noone is testing it.

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 01:21 PM
Piffle

Er, re your info, Jaws2002, I don't see any flat head rounds, either, but those were clearly flat head anti-personnel rounds. Perhaps they were Japanese-made shells which you won't find in the U.S. TO&E? Maybe the diabolical cads were actually firing HVHCBG (High Velocity Half Chewed Bubble Gum) rounds?

LStarosta
08-31-2006, 01:43 PM
Japanese tanks were known to have samurai swords strapped to their sides and tops during WWII to protect from American strafing raids.

WWMaxGunz
08-31-2006, 01:50 PM
1500 fps? At over 500 yards maybe.

Lead vs high carbon steel welded in 1000's of layers and heat treated so the blade is very
tiny hard crystals yet the back is large crystals... the sword can bend 180 degrees, it has
give and it's being hit on small area and lined up to best take the shock. So why is this
any kind of surprise? Only real question is who would be dumb enough to try and hold the
sword while being shot at? A shield it ain't!

reisen52
08-31-2006, 01:58 PM
End of the day, the Germans lost, the Japanese lost & the sword broke. That will never change; only the excuses as to why will.

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 02:11 PM
A little known fact: battleship YAMATO was protected by one million blue steel Samurai swords of the finest quality. A section of this plating to be used on the unfinished fourth YAMATO was tested by the US Navy at its Dahlgren Proving Ground in 1946. A 16"/50 cal AP naval shell was fired at the equivalent of 16,000 yards at the plate. The shell, the same used on the IOWA class battleships, was split down the middle by a razor-sharp Samurai sword. The ballistics experts concluded if YAMATO had been attacked by IOWA, the American ship's AP shells would have been worthless. Unfortunately, the cunning US Navy used comparatively crude torpedoes on the YAMATO which struck below the Samurai sword armor and easily sank the ship. See pages 196-99 in AXIS BATTLESHIPS. Dulin and Garzke. US Naval Institute, Annapolis, 1985.

Divine-Wind
08-31-2006, 02:15 PM
Pfft. Chuck Norris could easily break these.

Friendly_flyer
08-31-2006, 02:42 PM
It's still bloody impressive!

ploughman
08-31-2006, 02:46 PM
The Chuck Norris thing is spreading, only the other day I was walking through my qauint little English town dodging spaniels and Women's Institute fund raisers when a fellow (guy) walked by with a t-shirt on that said "Guns don't kill people, Chuck Norris kills people," printed over the bon visage of the great man himself.

Honestgodstruth.

ImpStarDuece
08-31-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Those shells had flat heads---they were not armor-piercing rounds. Jiggered test. AP probably would have snapped it with the first hit.

All current US .50cal bullets, with the notable exception of the SLAP (Saboted Light Armour Piercing) and plastic training rounds, have exactly the same shape.

The only visual difference between a .50 AP round and a .50 BAll round is that the AP rounds have black tip and the Ball rounds are just plain metal.

So, there really isn't a 'flat head' round for the .50 Browning, unless you count the plastic, dome headed training rounds.

leitmotiv
08-31-2006, 03:40 PM
Twaddle

WWMaxGunz
08-31-2006, 07:32 PM
From one source, AP, HE, and incendiaries are illegal for private owners to buy.

But then so are street drugs, grenades, LAW's, ....

http://www.nextag.com/50-caliber-bullet/search-html

Sierra SportsMaster -- flat tips, 400gr JSP, $18.29 per box of 50
Same price for the 350gr JHP's.
The 335gr Ranier hollow-points are cheaper.
Those are ONLY the bullets, not loaded cartridges.
You can hand-load em or muzzle-load em.
I think they are for muzzle loaders and pistol rounds but hey, they are 50 cal bullets.

Those places where you can rent time on surplus military weapons, they just use surplus
ammo, right? I expect so as it'd be a lot cheaper in time and money total.

LStarosta
08-31-2006, 07:35 PM
I've bought incindiary rounds in 7.62x54R.

Oops?

They sure burn nice, though.

actionhank1786
08-31-2006, 08:08 PM
I think the fact that a sword split any bullet in half is pretty impressive.
It's just a matter of surface area, i don't see the big debate over how.

Charos
08-31-2006, 08:09 PM
Moral for the day. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

The pen is mightier than the sword.

The Sword is mightier than the M2.

Be careful where you aim your pen.

HayateAce
08-31-2006, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by reisen52:
End of the day, the Germans lost, the Japanese lost & the sword broke. That will never change; only the excuses as to why will.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Charos
08-31-2006, 10:59 PM
There is one more universal constant that will never change.

Being able to read the following on a regular basis.

"This message has been edited. Last edited by: crazyivan1970. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

HayateAce
09-01-2006, 01:31 AM
My new quote for summing up the losers' plight in WW2.

"The sword broke."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Vrabac
09-01-2006, 08:07 AM
Would you all quit being such smart ***es and just admit that the slow motion looks damn kewl? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

heywooood
09-01-2006, 09:15 AM
.50 cal uber Spit 190 bar threads are tireder than a 90yr old marathoner in lederhosen

what this place needs is an update....



..wish I could link one

Ratsack
09-01-2006, 09:38 AM
That .50 was obviously undermodelled.

Ratsack

heywooood
09-01-2006, 09:47 AM
the term 'undermodelled' is overmodeled and tired.

DuxCorvan
09-01-2006, 10:01 AM
Interesting reading:

"October, 23th, 1944.

To Lt.Gen. Sanyo Yoshihito, from High Command. Eyes only.

Report needed on the situation of our reserves of hardened steel. Also, report needed on situation and availability of industrial and artesan blacksmiths in the Kyoto area.

Make these orders known to the reponsible, without not needed nor inconvenient explanation.

Possible pending order of 10.000 artesan katana swords by our German allies, which may use them to protect their new Tiger tanks against enemy air gunnery.

Report ASAP so we can make a decision on account of the availability of human and material resources.

For the victory of Japan and in the name of Tenno Heika,

Gen. Takeda Isoroku."

Vrabac
09-01-2006, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Possible pending order of 10.000 artesan katana swords by our German allies, which may use them to protect their new Tiger tanks against enemy air gunnery.

Only the bottom of the Tigers of course, to protect them from 50s ricocheting off the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So 5000 swords would be enough.

BiscuitKnight
09-01-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
Only the bottom of the Tigers of course, to protect them from 50s ricocheting off the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif So 5000 swords would be enough.

So you're going at 100 per tank, or 1000 per operational? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'd be interested to see who made the sword, and whether it was one of those el cheap (unlikely) swords or one of the $1,000s range swords. I mate ordered one of the cheap ones and cut a watermelon in half for fun, but apparently it damaged the blade a bit, so I'm guessing it was a properly made one they were shooting at.

DuxCorvan
09-01-2006, 11:18 AM
It was a Katori Kenzo sword. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

JtD
09-01-2006, 11:25 AM
Katanas are still cutting edge technology.

BiscuitKnight
09-01-2006, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
Katanas are still cutting edge technology.

Pun alert! Call the Pun Police!

*sirens wail* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

IRT Dux Corvan

Thankee. And that means? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

HuninMunin
09-01-2006, 11:40 AM
A Hatori Hanzo sword owns nuclear subs.

dravisar
09-01-2006, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
It's a Katana-shaped Yak!

ahhhhahaha

Classic.

Divine-Wind
09-01-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
Katanas are still cutting edge technology.
Ginsu knives are far more cutting edge. Plus, you can get yourself a free set of them if you act now, be sure!

Kurfurst__
09-01-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
The Chuck Norris thing is spreading, only the other day I was walking through my qauint little English town dodging spaniels and Women's Institute fund raisers when a fellow (guy) walked by with a t-shirt on that said "Guns don't kill people, Chuck Norris kills people," printed over the bon visage of the great man himself.

Honestgodstruth.

hmm, the guys over here north of budapest are building some sort of bridge accross the danube, and some official smartass though it would be great to ask The People what name shall be giveth to the bridge in an internet poll.
Any name could be suggested.

Chuck Norris was leading the poll for a while http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(But ever since some yanks running a talk show over the other continent found this out, and mobilised their fans to register and vote for, so Chuck ain't leading anymore, but this two telecomic guys competing each other orso I've read somewhere,).

BiscuitKnight
09-01-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Katanas are still cutting edge technology.
Ginsu knives are far more cutting edge. Plus, you can get yourself a free set of them if you act now, be sure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't we all just learn to get along and use lightsabers?

leitmotiv
09-01-2006, 03:08 PM
Reuters: 1 September 2006: All of Iran's underground nuclear weapon construction sites were destroyed today by a United States Air Force surprise attack employing deep-penetrating, half-ton Samurai swords made by Hanzo in Japan.

Iranian government vows revenge on U.S. and Japan.

NonWonderDog
09-01-2006, 03:38 PM
All in favor of Stephen Colbert bridge? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BiscuitKnight
09-01-2006, 03:44 PM
Only on the condition we all get Dreamsicles.

Kurfurst__
09-01-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
All in favor of Stephen Colbert bridge? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yep, the guy's leading with like 80 000 votes?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=colbert+bridge&search=Search

http://www.m0hid.gov.hu/toplista

BiscuitKnight
09-01-2006, 03:50 PM
Biscuit Bridge has such a good ring to it.

NonWonderDog
09-01-2006, 03:53 PM
Hah! You have to register with their site before you can vote, now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kurfurst__
09-01-2006, 04:03 PM
Too late guys, only the top 25 of the first round can be voted for now... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

berg417448
09-01-2006, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
All in favor of Stephen Colbert bridge? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yep, the guy's leading with like 80 000 votes?

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=colbert+bridge&search=Search

http://www.m0hid.gov.hu/toplista </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


What? No votes for the Kurfurst bridge?