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View Full Version : B25 G - How hard can it be to make flyable??



bigbossmalone
08-02-2007, 03:57 PM
I'm sure this has been debated ad nauseum already by some folk, but hell, really, now...
I'm trying to be as objective as I can about the whole matter, but think about it...what do Oleg and co need to do to make it flyable?
We already have the B25J, which is one of the more 'cool' bombers in iL2, we have so few of them as it is...I mean, why not just use the cockpit and gunner positions from the J model?
It would be even less, mind you, it doesn't need the front gunner position, even.
And the forward-firing firepower of this little baby must have been pretty impressive!!
Really, how much work could it be...
Right, now I'm gonna run befroe the heavies come down on me, quoting all kinds of FM/realism reasons, blah, blah, blah...
From my cozy observers chair, I look, and think...surely, they could just incorporate what we have for the J model already, sans front gunner, but WITH all the lovely cannons and things that go BOOM in the night?? This beast would eat through vehicle columns enough to make an IL2 blush, I have no doubt... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

bigbossmalone
08-02-2007, 03:57 PM
I'm sure this has been debated ad nauseum already by some folk, but hell, really, now...
I'm trying to be as objective as I can about the whole matter, but think about it...what do Oleg and co need to do to make it flyable?
We already have the B25J, which is one of the more 'cool' bombers in iL2, we have so few of them as it is...I mean, why not just use the cockpit and gunner positions from the J model?
It would be even less, mind you, it doesn't need the front gunner position, even.
And the forward-firing firepower of this little baby must have been pretty impressive!!
Really, how much work could it be...
Right, now I'm gonna run befroe the heavies come down on me, quoting all kinds of FM/realism reasons, blah, blah, blah...
From my cozy observers chair, I look, and think...surely, they could just incorporate what we have for the J model already, sans front gunner, but WITH all the lovely cannons and things that go BOOM in the night?? This beast would eat through vehicle columns enough to make an IL2 blush, I have no doubt... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2007, 04:22 PM
I don't know how hard it is. You should try, and see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crash_Moses
08-02-2007, 04:23 PM
Nope. Sorry. I feel your pain. Don't ask again. Please. It's very painful.

bigbossmalone
08-03-2007, 12:37 AM
Ok, I'll suffer in silence, like a little lamb... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
For the meek shall inherit...
To the victor goes the....

Fill in the blanks and spot the contradiction http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

JG54_Lukas
08-03-2007, 02:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigbossmalone:
I'm sure this has been debated ad nauseum already by some folk, but hell, really, now...
I'm trying to be as objective as I can about the whole matter, but think about it...what do Oleg and co need to do to make it flyable? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They need references (the G model interior is different than the J), time, manpower, and oh, the will to keep a flight sim going on an outdated engine when their resources have already gone in to SoW.

Come on people, adjust your perspective. IL2 has been successful beyond anyone's imagination, but when the engine is as old as it is and has been stretched like it is, it's time to move on.

bigbossmalone
08-03-2007, 03:39 AM
Well, Lukas, I do agree with every point you've made - in the big scheme of things iL2 has been a huge success, if it wassn't, we wouldn't have SOW to look forward to!
I don't believe that il2 will die, though, for a long time coming, still. Lots of folks are going to have to upgrade/buy new machines, etc for SOW.....something tells me that SoW is going to 'take off' much slower than expected, initially. As for UBI, I'm sure for them its about sales, bottomline - MOOLAH!
So, if you already have arguably the BEST COMBAT FLIGHT SIM the WORLD, albeit a bit dated by now, isn't it just downright SILLY to just drop it like a hot potato for something new and shiny?
Hell, here we are all loving the nostalgia/reminiscence/(insert reason) of playing airplane games based on a war that happened 60+ years ago!! If everyone in the world had the newer is better viewpoint, we'd all be flying Klingon space cruisers, blowing up planets, or WHATEVER...
As for me, it'll be a sad day if nobody supports this game anymore...I'd cry, literally, this game has bought many a tear of joy to me, and many others.
Consider also, that new folks are being introduced to this sim EVERY day. Imagine you find a great sim/game for the first time, and suddenly BOOM - noone wants it anymore. I'm not gonna blame Oleg or anybody at UBI on this matter, I don't want to stand in the way of progress, and am also keenly looking forward to SOW.
What would make me happy, though, is if somebody at UBI took the time to think about it, there's more than enough space in the world for both iL2 and SOW, and whatever else they decide to do, for that matter.
So maybe they should think about giving iL2 over to somebody who would be prepared to take it further down the golden path... in the future, but the thought of them just closing the book on it at this point really makes me feel ill!!
'nuff said - I'm not taking this issue further, I've said my say, you're welcome to yours - to each their own.
Have a lovely day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

csThor
08-03-2007, 03:50 AM
You're obviously mixing commercial interests and what players might want. For Ubisoft and Maddox Games the Il-2 line is commercially dead and any cent invested into it is lost money. Both are business partners, not a bunch of buddies from the regular's table. They have to look for the financial returns of their work and not what would be good for people playing a game.

FritzGryphon
08-03-2007, 04:07 AM
You must be aware of the logical fallacy with the 'just one more plane wouldn't take much more time' argument.

If the developer modeled the 'just one more plane' that everyone wanted, they'd end up modeling a hundred planes.

And even after that hundred planes, there'd be whiners wanting 'just one more plane' saying that it 'wouldn't take much more time.'

The next thing you know, there's 250 planes in the game with a mountain of bugs that they can't fix, wasting time supporting an obsolete engine that is delaying their new product... does this sound familiar at all?

One sounds like an RPG addict when they say that new content will improve gameplay. It doesn't.

ake109
08-03-2007, 04:08 AM
BAH! We all know the REAL REASON is that (same reason why the Hs-219 Tank Buster isn't flyable) our Commie friends would be shot for High Treason if they allowed a ground attack aircraft with more firepower than the legendary IL2 to be in game.

bigbossmalone
08-03-2007, 04:24 AM
FritzGryphon, if you read my first post closer, you might pick up that I'm not asking for a new plane to be modelled, I'm well aware of how much work that would entail...I'm asking why they can't just take the EXISTING B25 model, and use that for the older model, which, in theory, shouldn't be much work at all.(to my mind this wouldn't really entail any new content at all-just an extension of EXISTING content)
Granted, there may be SLIGHT differences in the two models, but I'm sure it would hardly be noticeable. I can't see too many people complaining about it if we have an extra flyable bomber!
I've been wrong in the past, and am sure the someone will come back and tell me EXACTLY how VERY different the two models were from each other.
But, yes, I admit it's becoming hard for me to be objective - in my history of PC gaming, I was never really into flight sims, they all sucked, IMHO - I was into FPS, RTS games, etc.
When IL2 came out, everything changed. I was an instant convert! There's not many other games that have had this kind of effect on me, and surely on others as well.
See how easily I was suckered into replying after saying I was done with this post, for example!
Guys, look, I'm a great supporter of Oleg and UBI - God knows, I've sent enough of my hard earned cash their way over the years, and I will keep sending it as long as they keep releasing quality sims, happily!
It just seems so sad to just let it all go.....

csThor
08-03-2007, 04:33 AM
You're still grossly underestimating the amount of work even for such a "simple conversion". There's not just the 3D and texture work (which takes about a month per cockpit/gunner position done from scratch) but even more programming FM, AI, aircraft systems and their operation etc ... The balance 3D/Texture and Programming is about 30% to 70% ... And with Maddox Games being a small team for the task they've set for themselves there is just no chance of it happening. That we get 4.09 (hopefully) is simply owed to the fact that the maps were made players. MG's workload is very small here - but still it's pure goodwill on their part.

bigbossmalone
08-03-2007, 04:36 AM
OK, I'm going to leave it at that, albeit with a heavy heart... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

flakwagen
08-03-2007, 05:05 AM
I'd rather see the resources devoted to extra aircraft in SOW. There are already a few planes in IL2 that probably should've been saved for a future SOW add-on.

Flak

CzechTexan
08-03-2007, 06:15 AM
We all know the odds of getting more planes flyable is very low. But I, like others, believe this sim will be around for a LONG time. One big reason is variety of planes and the different theaters of war.

I believe the SoW series will be slow in development. Look how long it's taking SoW-BoB to come out...and that just focuses on Britain and western France. If you want to fly in a theater such as China-Burma-India or even Pacific then you might be waiting a very long time.
I don't see too many people dropping this sim just because BoB gets released to the public.

Going back to making planes flyable...is it possible for a third-party like RRG to take over IL2 and make some of these planes flyable?
This would definately keep this sim alive for a Long time.

On a more personal note I am just finishing up a campaign about the Chinese-American Composite Wing which used B-25D,H,and J models. It certainly would be more realistic if the D and H (or G) were flyable. For now and maybe forever, I'll have to just use the J model. Well, at least we have the J, right? Thanks Oleg.

bigbossmalone
08-03-2007, 06:56 AM
Nicely put, there, CzechTexan. Will you be releasing the campaign?
Pretty please... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

ParachuteProne
08-03-2007, 07:16 AM
The only thing that concerns me about the new vs old debate is this & correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe I read some time ago that modelling for SOW would be more difficult & fewer people would have the skills & time to make models for the new Sim.
Its taken all this time to get the number of planes we have - mostly thanks to 3rd party modelers.
I would think that once SOW comes out it will take the same amount of time for it to become dated as well & Olegs team will want to begin anew yet again. If that is the case we may never reach a comparable variety in the number of planes we have now before SOW gets left for another newer Sim.

The community seems to be of two minds in regard to this.

1) There are the ones who revel in the realism in the flight characteristics of the Sim.
They definately are anxious for the new Sim.

2) There are the ones who find immersion relates to the number of different planes/ships & theaters in the sim.

I tend to fall between the two & usually fly with complex management off (Just lazy I guess)

I just hope the people in the 2nd group don't get disappointed if SOW ends as well before they see alot of their favorite planes released.
I'm looking forward to SOW however I will be still using the old game if I want to fly the pacific for instance & would like at some point to have a Sim with even more aircraft than what we have now.

Perhaps before SOW becomes dated modeling software will evolve as well to reduce the amount of time it takes to make one of these planes.

Mark

i200th_Sakagawa
08-03-2007, 08:03 AM
yeah make it as 1st sim where are all planes form WWII available.

addons will still earn money.

il2 never die