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Frank_Torpex
09-24-2004, 05:13 PM
Greets!

These two are for the Dev Team (unless it has already been asked in which case I could not find it, should that be the case please forgive me.)

1-Will the subs in SHIII if they are bottomed out be harder to find then if they were not?

I would not expect bottoming out to be 100% masking, but even todays active sonar (minus a few really advanced side looking sonars) has a hard time determining a ship on the bottom. So I would expect bottoming out to be more effective in deeper water. The big down side to that would be the same as it was then, mentally you are a siting duck if they drop DC's covering your last known area!

2-In SH1, when you bottomed out while you were flooding, your sub didnt roll on its side and die (AKA SH2) but filled until the crew stopped the flooding (AKA Das Boot). Will this life saving ability be modeled in SHIII?

Frank
Subim Staff

Teddy Bar
09-25-2004, 07:23 PM
Frank,
I can see where you are coming from in regards to an unsupecting escort going by not noticing you.

However, when being actively hunted, i.e. the escort knows you are within the area, in shallow water your profile would stick out like a sore thumb. At what depth do you see this evasive action being effective?

Also the sound of a u-boat bottoming out would be very noisy? Especially, when you could only guess the depth unless using the range finder which would advertise your position to anyone whithin earshot.

There is alos the risk of bottoming out on rock, ouch!

Frank_Torpex
09-26-2004, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teddy Bar:
Frank,
I can see where you are coming from in regards to an unsupecting escort going by not noticing you.

However, when being actively hunted, i.e. the escort knows you are within the area, in shallow water your profile would stick out like a sore thumb. At what depth do you see this evasive action being effective?

Also the sound of a u-boat bottoming out would be very noisy? Especially, when you could only guess the depth unless using the range finder which would advertise your position to anyone whithin earshot.

There is alos the risk of bottoming out on rock, ouch! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Teddy Bar,
The bottom type has a great effect on the sonar getting distorted, especially any sonars recievers lack of ability to handel reverberations. I can assure you from my years in the Navy that modern warship sonar does have great difficulty in descerning a bottom wreck from the bottom under certain conditions. So, no, it wouldnt stick out like a sore thumb. Its that; "The sub was last detected at this spot, so lets drop them in this area and "hope for a hit". That tactic would definitly work for the escort because of the slow speed of the Sub.

So, basically to make it helpful, but not an "uber" tactic I would hope the Dev Team would make it random but effective below 100 meters based on the data I have.

Noisey bottoming out? LOL Well....If my diving officer couldnt achieve a downward vertical velocity of less then .5 ft per sec, I wouldnt suggest bottoming out. I am not talking about a Das Boot Smashing into the bottom, I am talking about a controlled evolution.

Here is the situation where I see it being useful: Sub is in 300+ meters of water evading escorts with some minor and major damage. Sub is taking on water an only has about enough reserve bouyancy to last an hour. I check the chart and see that to the North of our position the water is getting shallower. I order a change in course to the North and "hope" that should we start to sink, we can rest on the bottom and; 1-Lick our wounds 2-Lose the escorts. After 50 minutes of a zig-zag course we reach a position on the chart that shows 200 meters. I order a radical course change to the west ahead slow and the boat begins to sink due to the reduction of speed (therefore reducing the hydrodynamic effect of the planes and hull which was supporting the added weight from the flooding). We get a little edgy after a few more depth charges go off astern, but suddenly the boat stops and I order all stop as the boat settels on the bottom at 214 meters. It takes 3 hours to stop the flooding and pump the extra water out. The escorts can be heard criss-crossing the area searching and ocassionally dropping a few Depth Charges. The sound man even reports a few depth charges have hit bottom not detonating (obviously set deeper then the water depth). Several hours later air getting foul everything is all quiet and.....

I'll leave the rest to your imagination and possibilities.

So how it could be implemented is up to the Dev team. I personally have had the above situation occur while playing SH1. I also came up and 2000 yds away was a DD sitting waiting for me all stop!! So I had to go back down and suffer for a few more hours. :P

I wouldnt expect it to work 100% of the time, but it should be implemented in some form, I hope. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frank

bertgang
09-27-2004, 04:34 AM
I lived a similar experience in AoD.
My sinking sub reached the bottom at 230 meters.
The boat was badly damaged, and a first attempt to rise up failed.
I had to wait there some hours, hearing charges all around (but without taking hits), until damages were fixed; when I was able to rise, DDs were leaving the area.

Leif...
09-27-2004, 04:46 AM
Also bottoming was used frequently during operation drumbeat, iirc. During daytime they simple lay on the bottom minding their own business and waiting for the daylight to fade away. At night, surface, charge batteries and hunt for targets.

Leif€¦

Teddy Bar
09-27-2004, 05:22 AM
Frank_Torpex,
Well it just goes to show how little I know about how fine a control that can be had on a u-boat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I see your point. Sounds good to!

Frank_Torpex
09-27-2004, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teddy Bar:
Frank_Torpex,
Well it just goes to show how little I know about how fine a control that can be had on a u-boat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I see your point. Sounds good to! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Teddy Bar,

Let me assure you I do not believe that ALL U-Boat Crews were capable of excellent depth Control, nor were all Boat "created equal". I just would like to see two things.......1-My questions answered and 2- my questions answered. LOL

hehehe

Frank

Jose.MaC
09-29-2004, 06:02 PM
If the sub can have a buoyancy sistem to manage depth -not only the planes, so we can hit bottom while sailing almost horizontal- and a decent resistance from water, will be nice to try.

CB..
09-29-2004, 06:34 PM
in shallow water i've read a report of escorts dragging the bottom with chains hoping to snag the u-boat ...(sounded improbable to me but it was a factual account)

Drebbel
09-29-2004, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CB..:
in shallow water i've read a report of escorts dragging the bottom with chains hoping to snag the u-boat ...(sounded improbable to me but it was a factual account) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading that too. But wasn't that related to WWI ?

Frank_Torpex
09-29-2004, 06:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jose.MaC:
If the sub can have a buoyancy sistem to manage depth -not only the planes, so we can hit bottom while sailing almost horizontal- and a decent resistance from water, will be nice to try. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that and the escorts sonar getting "confused" while the sub is on the bottom would be awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Redwine
10-01-2004, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drebbel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CB..:
in shallow water i've read a report of escorts dragging the bottom with chains hoping to snag the u-boat ...(sounded improbable to me but it was a factual account) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading that too. But wasn't that related to WWI ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I watch that in a movie....... may be "Below", when a german DD attempt to catch an american sub using some kind of "hooks" to hunt it.........

Frank_Torpex
10-06-2004, 04:56 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

heheh..I am not gonna just go away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Frank

U-553
10-07-2004, 03:33 AM
The biggest problem for the commanders
was to get the sub, free from the bottom, many they were stuck and wenn they got free the popped through the surface without control
Sorry my english is not that good

Frank_Torpex
10-09-2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by U-553:
The biggest problem for the commanders
was to get the sub, free from the bottom, many they were stuck and wenn they got free the popped through the surface without control
Sorry my english is not that good <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no doubt that some subs did have problems, more so if they setteled in a muddy bottom. I read several stories from WWI and it was almost standard routine to have the evening meal sitting on the bottom, provided there was a bottom close and not too deep.

I dont think it would be asking too much of the dev team to allow the bottom to induce a similar "masking" effect as a thermal/saline layer to allow the sub commander to make repairs on the bottom, if the bottom is near. It certainly worked in real life.

Frank