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XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:16 PM
Im just curious to everyones opinion on this one:

I have read many accounts of hawkers chewing up stukas in the BoB and the weapons effectiveness being stronger.

I was woundering if anyone agrees with this issue not sure if it has been talkeed about, but I have plenty of documented reports in the early BoB history books.

Warriorbear

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:16 PM
Im just curious to everyones opinion on this one:

I have read many accounts of hawkers chewing up stukas in the BoB and the weapons effectiveness being stronger.

I was woundering if anyone agrees with this issue not sure if it has been talkeed about, but I have plenty of documented reports in the early BoB history books.

Warriorbear

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:24 PM
Well a Ju-87 without fighter escort is a dead Ju-87 against any half decent fighter pilot.

It's a slow, lumbering plane that almost too easy as target practice in the QMB.

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

fluke39
10-15-2003, 12:39 PM
the battle of britain was the first time the stukas vulnerability was higlighted. - until that time the stukas had operated in conditions of air supremacy (poland france etc) - thus building up a perfect combat record, and false impression of invulnerability.

As soon as the stukas were operating in conditions where the luftwaffe did not have overall control of the air, they were almost knocked out of the sky like flies. i have heard that the RAF pilots loved to fly against stukas as the odds were so much in their (RAF's) favour.

i don't think this is anything particular to the hurricane - just that they (and spits) happened to be the planes in use when the stukas were first found to be "easy meat".

as for "weapon effectiveness being stronger" i'm not sure what you mean. the standard .303's of early spits and hurricanes were never ideal aircraft weapons - although in the hands of a good pilot/good shot - they could be used very effectively ( engine shots/ and shooting up cockpit/pilot kills being the main way to down enemy a/c) -i have often read about pilots emeptying their entire ammo load into a he111 or equivalent and not bringing it down.

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:44 PM
the stuka seems like it shoots marshmellows but then again so does the hurricane mk1 and IIB.

Many times flying the stuka online in bob planeset servers the ai stuka gunner can kill up to 3 mk1 and iibs, they can shredd up your plane with very little effect and your stuka keeps flying along.

Like many people know in here theres some serious Damage model and gun strenght effectiveness issues in 1.11 and hopefully yhey will not overlook them in 1.2 which seems like they havent done anything about it yet but they are still working on 1.2

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 12:55 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- the stuka seems like it shoots marshmellows but then
- again so does the hurricane mk1 and IIB.
-
- Many times flying the stuka online in bob planeset
- servers the ai stuka gunner can kill up to 3 mk1 and
- iibs, they can shredd up your plane with very little
- effect and your stuka keeps flying along.
-
- Like many people know in here theres some serious
- Damage model and gun strenght effectiveness issues
- in 1.11 and hopefully yhey will not overlook them in
- 1.2 which seems like they havent done anything about
- it yet but they are still working on 1.2

If any human pilot gets hit by an AI Ju-87 rear gunner, it's their own fault. It's a testament of poor flying skill and tactics, not of any flawed weapon models.

BTW: Don't you sometimes tire of that incessant whining? The shrill "waaah! waaah!" that goes on and on in your posts?

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:05 PM
If you don't hit anything critical in the Stuka, it's very survivable. I've emptied all of my ShVAK and UBS ammo from a Yak-9 into one from below, with plenty of it hitting only to have the thing fly back to base with one less landing gear and some very well ventilated wings. The next mission I encountered Stukas on, I shot down three - one by de-winging it, one with a fuel tank explosion and the final one crashed on the way home as a result of it's radiator being shot up.

You need a couple of seconds of sustained fire in a small area with the Hurri IIB to get an effect, or you need to hit somewhere critical that doesn't have armour. Both of these things are hard to do. Don't know if it's accurate to history or not but I doubt they would have started putting Hispanos all over the thing if the Browning .303 was a sure-fire winner! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:36 PM
slush you whining about my posts is worse then stating a problem thats in the game, funny all these so called tactics masters NEVER FLY ONLINE, go shoot down some ai and keep thinking your so good.

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:42 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- slush you whining about my posts is worse then
- stating a problem thats in the game, funny all these
- so called tactics masters NEVER FLY ONLINE, go shoot
- down some ai and keep thinking your so good.

The thing is you don't analyse and document a problem. You just state your personal opinion about planes you've never flown and weapons you've never fired.

I'm not a tactics master, and I suck online against good, human pilots. But I would never allow myself to be hit by an AI Ju-87 rear gunner. Only a total n00b would carry out the sort of rear attack where you place your fighter in the danger zone. So when you whine about human figher pilots being shot down by AI Ju-87, it's their own fault.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:46 PM
you obviously dont play this game enough and should to know whats going on with damage models and weapons effectiveness's.

Do me a favor don't respond to my posts anymore and I won't for any of yours, we all know your a troll who tries to start arguements rbj like qualities

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:51 PM
stukas were only safe in a dive because most fighters accelerate to fast and can´t shoot well in this position.

a stuka without bombs could fly very tight turns but normally they were easy meet for a normal Fighterpilot and no escortfighter could protect this very slow Stuka.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 01:57 PM
I setup an early war senario on my dogfight server - 1938 Hurri against Emils, Stuka, and He111's - after watching the BoB movie.

In the movie, you see stuka's wings getting taken off, etc... now, I know this is just a movie...but:

online, the stuka was a tank against the hurri ('38), granted, if you hit it just right you were ok, but it was certainly shooting bb's.

Best I could possibly do against the He111 was get the engines smoking, even with concentrated fire on the engine.


So - I think the post here is correct in it's view. I don't know why the stuka became so much tougher in the patch - wasn't always that way.

Course, no use complaining until we see 1.2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
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XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:00 PM
Slush69 wrote:

- I'm not a tactics master, and I suck online against
- good, human pilots. But I would never allow myself
- to be hit by an AI Ju-87 rear gunner. Only a total
- n00b would carry out the sort of rear attack where
- you place your fighter in the danger zone. So when
- you whine about human figher pilots being shot down
- by AI Ju-87, it's their own fault.
-

I beg to differ. The problem with AI gunners is that their initial shot is incredible. For example one tactic I've used (un)succesfully is dive under the target with max speed and zoom up quickly firing at his belly. This way your engine is a split-second time in gunners firing zone, but at least IL-2's gunner kills 109's crappy engine quite often. No human gunner could ever hit this kind of attack because they dont even see the plane coming.

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:07 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- you obviously dont play this game enough and should
- to know whats going on with damage models and
- weapons effectiveness's.
-
- Do me a favor don't respond to my posts anymore and
- I won't for any of yours, we all know your a troll
- who tries to start arguements rbj like qualities
-
- http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter

"The thing is you don't analyse and document a problem. You just state your personal opinion about planes you've never flown and weapons you've never fired."

Case in point! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

thnx/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:11 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
-
- I beg to differ. The problem with AI gunners is that
- their initial shot is incredible. For example one
- tactic I've used (un)succesfully is dive under the
- target with max speed and zoom up quickly firing at
- his belly. This way your engine is a split-second
- time in gunners firing zone, but at least IL-2's
- gunner kills 109's crappy engine quite often. No
- human gunner could ever hit this kind of attack
- because they dont even see the plane coming.


I take it we're talking the 1.11 patch here, right? I can't say that I've seen that sort of sniper behaviour in the latest patch.

If you're that worried about the rear gunner then why not just attack headon or underneath without the dive?

I'll still maintain that an AI controlled Ju-87 is nothing but a slow, lumbering target that no-one should have trouble shooting down, if they're just slightly past the newbie phase.

cheers/slush


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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

Zayets
10-15-2003, 02:14 PM
Yes, he is indeed a troll.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:17 PM
Both the 303's, .50 cal, and the German light machine guns are virtually ineffective at the dead 6 position. Try with the Hurricane climbing and coming in from a 7 or 5 o'clock and watch as the guns work much better. No idea why that is...

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:17 PM
slush you should try flying online once, theres noway you can comment about this or know whats happening offline since offline ai pilots bail from very light damage.

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:38 PM
Zayets wrote:
- Yes, he is indeed a troll.
-
- Zayets out


Huh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
And exactly what do you base that on?

/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

Zayets
10-15-2003, 02:40 PM
Your sig shows a red "x"

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 02:41 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- slush you should try flying online once, theres
- noway you can comment about this or know whats
- happening offline since offline ai pilots bail from
- very light damage.

I play online. Not as often as I'd like to, but I'm there.
Weren't we discussing AI Ju-87's vs. human pilots, and especially the accuracy of the AI controlled rear gunner? There's no difference here in online or offline AI behaviour, accuracy or lethality.

cheers/slush



http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-15-2003, 03:28 PM
what I have read abuout it is that Hurricane was a very stable gunnery platform (even more than the spitfire), this due to the fact that the machine guns were placed all together (non dispersal in the wing like the spitfire mk I) make the hurricane more efective against bombers that the first spits, becuause the bullets were more concentrated. I have fly hurri only 2 o 3 times in FB and I think this is quite well in the game... but this is just an impression.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:04 AM
Seems like I got alot of post and my issue was not on flight tactics. Sry, I could not be in the conversation but I worked all day today and just got on.

Point was not on tactics I'm a very good flyer online and offline the gunner I dont give a hoot about. I have read pilot acounts of attacking stukas in dives and at any point in flight and taking them down like flies.

I have found the DM a lil strong and was just seeing if anyone felt the same is all. This was from my own RAF collection of books that is where I gathered my info from.

This post was not to see people turn it into a P*****G match on whose info was beter. I trully hate when this happens and really discourages me from posting. Everyone here has a right to an opinion if backed by some facts(there is quite a bit on this subject). Mine come from pilot letters from the four BoB books I own plus a whole draw full of flight characteristic info, because I build FM and planes for other sims.

Now my question again: What do the pilots of FB think of the BoB matchup and is there possibly something wrong with the DM in the Stuka?

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:31 AM
Well in LS's defense, online a smart Stuka pilot will loop his aircraft if you go under his rear gunners firing arc. The Stuka gunners are extreamly deadly even with the pilot pulling evasive manuvers. I always dive down and attack stuka's from under them, but thats not a guaranteed kill. I also have had AI stuka's shoot me when I was directly under the damn thing! They have some sort of flexibal berral attachment were it shoots around the tail section. This cant be done when a human is gunning.

Gib

Slush69 wrote:
- LeadSpitter_ wrote:
-- slush you whining about my posts is worse then
-- stating a problem thats in the game, funny all these
-- so called tactics masters NEVER FLY ONLINE, go shoot
-- down some ai and keep thinking your so good.
-
- The thing is you don't analyse and document a
- problem. You just state your personal opinion about
- planes you've never flown and weapons you've never
- fired.
-
- I'm not a tactics master, and I suck online against
- good, human pilots. But I would never allow myself
- to be hit by an AI Ju-87 rear gunner. Only a total
- n00b would carry out the sort of rear attack where
- you place your fighter in the danger zone. So when
- you whine about human figher pilots being shot down
- by AI Ju-87, it's their own fault.
-
- cheers/slush
-

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 04:28 AM
Keep in mind that you don't have to cause massive structural failure to shoot an aircraft down and get a kill. I just set up a quick battle in a Hurricane IIb versus 4 friendly Stukas and raked each one of them in turn until my ammo was gone. Then I just waited a bit and sure enough, 2 of them went down and I got the "friendly aircraft destroyed" messages.

Too many people play with this attitude that if they don't see huge fireballs, they're not doing any damage. I now I've been shot down online many times with nothing more than control damage.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:05 AM
I think this topic is most likley directed to the MK.I,and MK.IIA, the ones that served mostly during the Battle of Britain, and the ones with only 8 (.303 in.) machine guns. And the fact that they said these Hurricanes could rip the wings off of German bombers, and the FB Hurricane cant dont this, most it can do it rip a couple flaps off or make the engines smoke or catch fire, but that takes alot of your ammo just to do that. Its interesting to know that the .303 is almost the same size as the Mauser 7.92 on the 109 Emils, and that just two of the MG17 can do more damage to a bomber than 8 .303's on the Hurricane. Now if you put 8 MG17's on a Hurricane, you got a real bomber killer in FB. So I think that they just need to boost up the killing power of the .303's in 1.2, because the day the Spitfire MK.I ever comes to FB its not going to be as tough as the Hurricanes guns, as you said the Spits guns are spread out, rather not concentrated like the Hurricanes, Well thats my opnion and my two cents, Feel free to spam my post.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.


Message Edited on 10/15/0310:06PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:15 AM
Wet willy is right. In FB the MkI hurri is useless against the Ju-87. I have emptied my guns into them at very close range (they have filled my windscreen) all I see is bits flying off in all directions with not as much as smoke coming from them.

Then on the other hand in the MkI I can down Bf-110's much easier. A shot in the engine see's them in flames. I have had great sucess fighting Bf-110's in the MkI.

This is all according to FB of course, not sure about real life. I know the 242 squad knocked out their fair share of Bf-110's during the BoB.

See you in the fence.....

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XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:37 AM
Slush69 wrote:

It is funny to see that our game-experience is so different as we are flying on different sides.

- I take it we're talking the 1.11 patch here, right?
- I can't say that I've seen that sort of sniper
- behaviour in the latest patch.
-

Hmmm, I havent flown campaigns with 1.11 at all because of funny FM's, but this would be one reason to use 1.11 offline.

- If you're that worried about the rear gunner then
- why not just attack headon or underneath without the
- dive?
-

"That worried about"? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif You really havent flown 109's against Pe-2's, IL-2's and Pe-8's havent you? Naturally because doing several headon attacks takes a heck of a lot time. And staying slightly underneath allows his wingman to kill your engine. And there is no such axis plane that could hang from its prop to keep so great AoA to achieve totally safe static position. Thats why you must keep the speed and energy up. Also you have to worry about fighters too.

- I'll still maintain that an AI controlled Ju-87 is
- nothing but a slow, lumbering target that no-one
- should have trouble shooting down, if they're just
- slightly past the newbie phase.
-

OK, you are right about that, I thought we were talking about more generally. But killing Ju-87 is really different; its MG17 can shoot 10sec directly into fex. LaGG-3 engine without noticeable effect. And when using plasma guns it cuts Junkers in half in few seconds. Life is so easy on the.. ummm.. light side of the force.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 06:56 AM
altstiff wrote:
- Wet willy is right. In FB the MkI hurri is useless
- against the Ju-87. I have emptied my guns into them
- at very close range (they have filled my windscreen)
- all I see is bits flying off in all directions with
- not as much as smoke coming from them.
-
- Then on the other hand in the MkI I can down
- Bf-110's much easier. A shot in the engine see's
- them in flames. I have had great sucess fighting
- Bf-110's in the MkI.
-
-
- This is all according to FB of course, not sure
- about real life. I know the 242 squad knocked out
- their fair share of Bf-110's during the BoB.


Yes the MK.I and the other Hurricanes can kill 110's rather easy because their engines catch so fire so easyly, but do they rip wings off, no, and their supposed to, but they dont. But Thxs for the support about the 87's. Now the thing about AI gunners is ridiculess, I set up a QMB with my and two other MK.I Hurricanes against 3 JU-87 B-2's at about 2000 Meters, all planes were set to Avarage diffuclt settings, with full relisims exsept for External Views. Now I ordered my guys to attack they broke right and I went left to engange the bombers from behind, now I was going about 320 MPH when I passed them and one of the bomber gunners tryed to deflect shoot me as I passes and he shot as I was about 100 or more meters away from him, and the bullets almost hit me. Now I figured this is such BS, the AI is deflecting shooting me as im going almost 50 or 60 MPH faster than he is, and he almost hit. This shows that the Gunner AI is too smart in 1.11, and needs to be toned down a little bit more. As Gibbage said, the Gunner AI can flex their guns way more than a Human Gunner can.

http://pilotosdelaluftwaffe.tripod.com/avi/erichhartmannsabre.jpg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Out of all of my accomplishments, Ive never lost a wing man"- Erich Hartmann
He fought for hes country, not for hes leaders.


Message Edited on 10/15/03 10:57PM by Wetwilly87

Message Edited on 10/15/0310:57PM by Wetwilly87

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:27 AM
Okay guys, I'm sorry but there is some serious exaggerating going on here, but since I used the Hurri IIb last time, I went back and did the same test again: me vs. 4 empty Ju-87B-2s (closest we can get to a BoB Stuka) w/ full realism settings.

The first time I tried the test, I closed to extremely close range, but ended up using almost all my ammo taking one Stuka down and was only able to lightly damage a second one. I figured out real quickly what was wrong: I was so far within the minimum convergence range that over half of my fire was totally missing the target and I was unable to accurately direct what fire I could get to hit.

So I started the same scenario over again. This time I closed to around 100m and then used short controlled bursts to pick away at one target at a time, doing my best to wait for a bit of deflection and aim at the engine and wing root area.

The first Stuka immediately started leaking coolant with the first burst and then started pouring smoke out of the right wing fuel tank after a couple more. I backed off as the target began to fall behind and moved on to the next Stuka.

Once again I closed to 100m and fired repeated, controlled bursts into the engine and wing root area. Once again smoke began pouring smoke out of the wing root after a well-aimed burst there. I stopped firing and pulled to the side while watching the target, which almost immediately bursts into flames. The plane pulled up sharply and I saw the canopy fly off as I turned my attention to the next Stuka. Meanwhile, I received a kill message for the Stuka I had just chewed up, followed shortly by one for the first Stuka.

After catching up to the next Stuka, I repeated the same attack, but ended up using a bit more ammo than on the first two. He pulled up hard and I overshot below him, but looking up I could see he was trailing light smoke from his engine and dark smoke from a fuel tank. I decided to try and find the final Stuka and use my last bit of ammo on him, but he proved elusive. After searching for a bit, I came upon the last Stuka I had attacked flying very low and slow, still trailing dark smoke. I made one more pass on him with my last few rounds just as he was about to ditch in the field. I zoomed past and looked back to see the Stuka rolling to a stop but now burning on one side. By the time it came to a stop, it was abandoned and burning nicely. Kill awarded.

So that was three Stukas downed with the ammo load of a single old Hurricane Mk.Ia. Damage and weapons model wise, that does not seem particularly ahistorical to me, especially considering the Stukas reputation for toughness.

The key is to fire at convergence and aim for vulnerable areas, and to not fixate on causing an instant kill with your fire.

Now the AI gunnery is a separate issue that I'm not going to go into right now.


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:31 AM
I tryed the ju87 against my p40 and even with the heavy .50cals it's hard to kill a ju87.

I made a track to show what we are all talking about,it's 4 friendly ju87 aginst my p40 with my guns convergance set to 200m,and I use TiR in case you were wondering.


It sure takes alot to kill the little

buggers. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/ju87kill.zip

No1RAAF_Pourshot
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CA-15%20Kangaroo.jpg

No1_RAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 08:18 AM
All right, I get the hurricane argument, but this _is_ the case with the I16/type 18 as well. Here's what effects I can get:

All firing done from direct 6, 120-80m, convergence at 100m

----
Hurri IIB v Ju87B

after 2 sec burst: Engine is smoking (thin grey), bullet holes in wings.

after all ammo spent: Thick Black smoke from both wing roots and engine, gunner killed, engine catches fire after 2 or 3 minutes.

----
I16/18

after 2 sec: engine smoking, thin smoke from left wing
all ammo spent: Thick black smoke from engine and left wing, engine catches fire later.

----
P40 (I don't know how you can even question lethality for this one!)

Neither target on one ammo load lasted for more than a 2 sec burst.

First, holed wing, snaps into stall and spins to ground.
Second, tail is torn off after 2 sec of fire.

The P40 guns are fine. LMGs maybe could be bumped a little, but they do work. And because I know someone's going to bring it up, here's the difference between the ShKAS and the Browning, which is why the 12 guns on the hurri aren't 2.5 times better than 4 on the I16:

Browning .303:
Muzzle velocity: 745m/s
Rate of Fire: 1140rpm

ShKAS:
Muzzle velocity: 825m/s
Rate of Fire: 1800rpm

So that's
1140x12 = 13680 rpm for the hurri
1800x4 = 7200 rpm for the I16
1.9 times more bullets fired for the hurri, but they are closer to the centreline on the I16 so convergence is less of a problem. I certainly find the Hurri package more effective generally, but both are good.

I think, perhaps, if the same sort of tweak is made for the .303 and the MG17 as was made for the M2, it should satify most people - but they would probably do the same for the ShKAS, which would cause more cryage.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:22 PM
As someone has earlier stated, the Stuka can take a fair amount of punishment if not hit in a vital area. The Hurricane is a good gunnery platform, even if those .303's are ineffective. From my personal perspective, the Stuka is a highly effective dive bomber and should be used as such. Avoid any confrontation with fighters. If you meet any while flying it, then something has gone wrong. Either bad luck or bad mission planning. I've nearly always found that by planning a route in safer airspace to first get height, that I'm free from interception at 4 to 5,000 metres and have a clear bomb run. Makes a long mission though. Plan an exit route free of enemy flak and airbases. Minimise your exposure and you usually you can make it back to base in one piece. Stay very low, so they can't get under your tail. If intercepted turn, weave, jink, give your gunner a clear field of fire. They can't always turn with you at such slow speeds. Make them earn their kill. Sometimes you get lucky.

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 01:54 PM
somone else made this point but these arent BoB stukas maybe the '41 model was more heavily armed?
that is a question not a statement btw

i fly the mk1 hurri most of the time i do feel there is something lacking in the .303 but im not sure what,having read a lot of books about and by BoB pilots they never had a concern about the strength or effectiveness of their guns

in fact one quote from a BoB pilot was along the lines (talking about a rear gunner) "it hardly seemed fair for the bombers one gun vs eight" although in the early days of the battle of france most pilots didnt worry about rear gunners that soon changed when combat occured against rear armed aircraft

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XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:20 PM
they do seem ineffective to me, most mg's tbh :\
maybe we are missing penetration for the mg's?
cos if u got smaller round, but same speed itll go thru more?
im thinkin of the old elephant/woman with stiletos standin on your foot

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 02:30 PM
In the early part of BOB they used Stukas to bomb shipping and radar installations in phase 1 of the offensive, like people already posted the Hurri's was all they had in great numbers at the beginning of July so they chewed up the Stukas in great numbers since they did not have ownership of the skys like in previous battles, the Stuka was basically washed up by 1939. By the BOB, summer of '40 they were target drones to the British. Hurri's could easily take out Stukas.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:18 AM
In BOB most Luftwaffe Stg Gruppe's used the B-1 version. The B-2 which we see here came out in December, 1939 and started reaching units in time for the battles over Britain. But too late for action over France, Belgium and Holland. Essentially, they were both very similar, the B-2 having an uprated 1200hp Jumbo 211 Da instead of the B-1's 1100hp Jumbo 211 A. Other minor changes were made to the radiator, prop, cranking port and leading wing edge. By the begining of 1941 the B-2 made up more then half the Stuka Gruppen. In practice both versions of the Bertha were used together as there performance was nearly identical.Natuarally the D series was still under development and was much too late for use in BOB.

fluke39
10-17-2003, 12:32 PM
mothyp wrote

" fly the mk1 hurri most of the time i do feel there is something lacking in the .303 but im not sure what,having read a lot of books about and by BoB pilots they never had a concern about the strength or effectiveness of their guns"

p1ngu666 wrote:
- they do seem ineffective to me, most mg's tbh :\
- maybe we are missing penetration for the mg's?
- cos if u got smaller round, but same speed itll go
- thru more?
- im thinkin of the old elephant/woman with stiletos
- standin on your foot


i think mg's are about right in FB - mothyp, i guess you are right in saying BoB period pilots were never really concerned about the effectiveness of their guns - as this fits with what i have read too.

however as far as i can see the mg's are effective in FB if your aiming is good - most kills i have read of in BoB books seem to be pilot kills or engine hits - something that can be easily achieved in FB given good aim.

as i have mentioned in my first post also i have read a few times about whole ammo loads having little effect - something also easily acheivable in FB given a poor aim. - and since most BoB pilots were probably very highly trained since it was early in the war - this could possibly explain how many pilots could easily acheive kills with poor weaponery.

as for penetration p1ngu - i don't think it's as easy as saying a fat lady in stilletos as it isn't just speed you got to take into account - the weight/mass of the object should be taken into account too - a larger projectile will usually have a larger mass - which will make it harder to stop than a smaller, lighter bullet.

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Hawgdog
10-17-2003, 02:07 PM
Interesting. Just watched the Wings Discovery chanel, and lo, it was an hour of the Stuka..
The Stuka dominated the skies, it was unstoppable, lethal, deadly accurate and terrorized ALL ground targets. Germany could have won the war with THIS plane alone.


oh...I forgot, you need complete air superiority and lots of ground support to knock out AAA, otherwise its just another cool looking target drone. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

side note: I found it disturbing the number of civilians that were attacked. I recall three clips of what looked like pesants (sp?) in rags walking down roads with mules and wheelbarrows. War is war,granted-I'm sure it happened and does on both sides, but still it was disturbing.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:42 PM
mothyp wrote:
- somone else made this point but these arent BoB
- stukas maybe the '41 model was more heavily armed?
- that is a question not a statement btw

Surely this is crucial? We shouldn't expect the Hurricane of 1938 (nor the 12 gun job) to be able to easily shoot down a Stuka of 1941.
Most German aircraft were not armoured during the BoB ie crew compartments and engines were extremely vulnerable to rifle calibre bullets.
It was precisely as a result of experiences during the BoB that the RLM instructed German aircraft manufacturers to introduce more armour protection on the production line and to produce armour plating field- mod kits.
By the time Luftwaffe units had refitted back in Germany during the December 1940- June 1941 period just about all of their aircraft had full armour protection and self- sealing tanks. Barbarossa in 1941 was therefore a very different experience for German crews.
If Oleg is to be believed all aircraft in FB take into account the thickness and position of armour plate. I find this hard to believe for some of the rarer machines but there should be no difficulty for the Ju87.
Perhaps what we get in FB is, in fact, accurate?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:56 PM
Hawgdog wrote:
- side note: I found it disturbing the number of
- civilians that were attacked. I recall three clips
- of what looked like pesants (sp?) in rags walking
- down roads with mules and wheelbarrows. War is
- war,granted-I'm sure it happened and does on both
- sides, but still it was disturbing.

I've seen footage taken from the nose of a low flying Heinkel 111 during the fall of France. You look over the shoulder of the nose gunner as he gleefully strafes refugees (men, women, children and horses) fleeing the German advance along country roads. Les Boches were quick to build on the reputation they gained at Guernica and elsewhere. Not all Luftwaffe flieger were the honourable 'Knights of the Air' that some on this board like to characterise them as.