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ZG77_Nagual
10-21-2003, 06:24 PM
Thought I'd post these two threads since we've all been debating about these planes alot lately

http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p39.html
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg


Message Edited on 10/21/0303:36PM by ZG77_Nagual

ZG77_Nagual
10-21-2003, 06:24 PM
Thought I'd post these two threads since we've all been debating about these planes alot lately

http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p39.html
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p40.html

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg


Message Edited on 10/21/0303:36PM by ZG77_Nagual

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:55 PM
Several very interesting reads, thanx Nagual!


Falcon

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 07:05 PM
One thing to remember in the plane vs plane debates is cost. I seem to recall that the US gov't could buy 2 P-51's for the cost of one P-38. That adds up.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:24 PM
I have read arguements from ETO pilots that in Western Europe, because of performance parity, dogfights were the norm rather than the exception and a plane that was fast and maneuverable was preferred. The P-38. as noted in those messages had problems ( maneuverability, engine overheating)at high altitude but shines where it could boom and zoom against slower aircraft at medium and low altitudes and use its superior climb capability and firepower at long range. These positive attributes were at leaast partially neutralized in Europe when confronted with an enemy that could fly higher, dive faster, and turn tighter.

All this being said the many scenarios and matchups possible when we get the P-38 in this game will be very interesting.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:54 PM
Interesting, but I found this HORRIBLE when I was reading the P-38 stuff.

20FG entered N. Euro. combat at the end of Dec, '43. Did not appear to
suffer from the morale and leadership problems of the 55FG. First
contacted Luftwaffe on 29 Jan. '44. Downed 3 FW-190, 3 Me-110, 3 Me-210,
1 Me-109. No P-38s lost. 3 FWs downed by Lindol Graham, who used only
his single 20mm cannon, 12 shots per plane. (Lindol later crashed and was
killed while attempting to kill the fleeing crew of an Me-110 he had just
forced down in a low-level fight. The two men were floundering across a
snow-covered field and it appeared that Lindol attempted to hit them with
his props. His plane seemed to hit the ground, then bounce back up,
soaring into a chandelle, then falling off on its nose and diving straight
into the ground.)

In my openion, it serves him right. He should not have done that. I wonder what prompted him to attempt such an act.

Gib

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

ZG77_Nagual
10-21-2003, 08:56 PM
Obviously this guy was seriously ticked off.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:10 PM
Lindol's opinion was the one that matters here.

One of the popular reasons expressed by pilots with similar feelings was that you better kill them while you can because those two 110 flyers will simply return to their airport and jump in another 110.

War ain't roses, y'know?

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Falcon



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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:21 PM
Still it goes against the rules of war. Not to kill an un-armed troop or one that is out of the fight. Clearly the Me-110 pilot and crew posed no current threat to the P-38 and were out of the fight. They may have had a side arm, but thats up for debate. To try to kill the human being with your props denotes some serious anger or mental instability.

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:26 PM
Gib those guys were gonna get a new plane as soon as they got back to their airbase. Maybe next mission they knock down a couple B-17's. Thats 20 of our guys lost cause the P-38 driver let em go.

War aint fair. You kill or capture the enemy wherever and however you can.

ZG77_Nagual
10-21-2003, 09:28 PM
To me human values are when you bring something to the situation that falls outside the range of physical expediency. I don't judge the guy for trying to osterize those guys - but the people I admire are the ones who just let it go.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:29 PM
Old topic ...

Insert standard response to young naive idealist (gib) here;

>
>
>
>

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Falcon

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Message Edited on 10/21/0308:30PM by Falcon_41

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:33 PM
The differant between good and evil is how they fight. If the Allies start shooting parachutes and straifing downed pilots, we become no better then the evil we are fighting. It happened yes, but I dont need to like the fact that it did, or agree with how it was done.

Gib

No fancy quote or cool photo.... YET

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:26 AM
Gibbage1 wrote:Lindol
- later crashed and was
- killed while attempting to kill the fleeing crew of
- an Me-110 he had just
- forced down in a low-level fight. The two men were
- floundering across a
- snow-covered field and it appeared that Lindol
- attempted to hit them with
- his props. His plane seemed to hit the ground, then
- bounce back up,
- soaring into a chandelle, then falling off on its
- nose and diving straight
- into the ground.)

Regardless of whether Lindol should've tried to kill them or not,I just can't figure out why he tried to use his props to kill them. If he just HAD to kill em why not use the guns the P-38 is so conviently equipped with? Even if he had hit them wouldn't the damage to his prop(s) have been severe?

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg


Message Edited on 10/21/0307:27PM by necrobaron

ZG77_Nagual
10-22-2003, 01:29 AM
I think we can conclude he was all out of boom booms.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:34 AM
..or sadistic,I suppose.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:57 AM
Well war is hell. thats what you have to do. that's your job. to kill the enemy with out hesitation. While i find the manner in which he tried to do it stupid & foolhearty...in war it's kill or be killed. Sad but that's the truth. there is no honor in killing someone. it's just something that has to be done in war. that is the vry nature of war it's self. Honor goes out the window when one's life is at steak.
What's not to say that that same 110 pilot & crew could have killed him on his next mission? Maybe they just killed one of his buddies? I know i'll probly have a hard time getting this point over & still sounding sane...but that the way it was. If you didn't kill them when you had the chance.....they may live to get you next time.
If you were in his shoes & had just shot down Adolf Galland...and had the chance to straif him in his Chute...knowing that if he lived you had to face him again tommrow....Would you kill him?
I hate to admit it but i would. By killing that pilot & crew you not only saving your own *** but that of countless other pilots that may face them in the futre.
While this guys tactices to achive his duty lack something to be desiered....He was doing what duty requried of him to do. I think that a lot of times we glamorize the men that we idolize as hero's (pilots) form WWII. We have become so engrossed in the "ok i can hit re-fly" attitude of the game that we have forggotten the fanility of death.
my point i guees gentelmen is this....there was nothiong glamorus about being a combat fighter pilot in wwII. you got in your plane...you went out & you killed people to try and save as many lives as you could in the war... your own included. I'm sure givien the choice between killing some one & drinking cold beer & fishing those young boys wold have rather been at home fishing. But they did what they had to do. & i'm greatfull they did. There is no honor in war...only life, death, & duty.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:47 PM
...never mind.

didn't want to start a debate so I deleted my snipe.

Message Edited on 10/22/0305:51PM by rhorta

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:28 PM
One of the interesting nuggets about these planes
is that they were all designed for the same USAAC
specification for an interceptor with good high
altitude performance and good loiter time.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:32 PM
Gibbage1 wrote:
- The differant between good and evil is how they
- fight. If the Allies start shooting parachutes and
- straifing downed pilots, we become no better then
- the evil we are fighting. It happened yes, but I
- dont need to like the fact that it did, or agree
- with how it was done.

I totally support what you say. War may be hell,
but it doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral
principles entirely. Luckily these days there seems
to be a move by the West at least to target military
actions carefully and avoid civlian casualties and
I applaud that.

The only mildly convincing counter argument I've heard
is that war is inherently bad, but if it is made less
bloody then it will be more likely to be used. I can
see some merit in this, but sadly I think that war is
too often inevitable due to breakdowns in diplomacy,
in which case avoiding unethically derived casualities
is a good thing.

Hmmm - I think this thread might get locked soon...

ZG77_Nagual
10-22-2003, 06:35 PM
Ahh.. back on topic.

ONe more thing though. The other night I got vulched, rammed and generally persecuted by a pretty good yak driver (I was in the 190) Finally we got into a 1v1 and I ws able to gain the upper hand with some very deft low speed flying - if I do say so myself. I badly flensed his 9t and followed him down to a neutral airport. I saw his gear go down - turned on my streamers and just flew on by. I did this because this is a game and I can afford the luxury of granting 'mercy' even to those who don't give it. I plan to continue flying this way - even when it costs me points - because, to my mind, it's more fun.

Of the links I posted the p40 one is particularly interesting - the guy actually flew them in combat. It's amazing what he has to say about that bird.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:40 PM
AaronGT wrote:

- I totally support what you say. War may be hell,
- but it doesn't mean you have to abandon all moral
- principles entirely. Luckily these days there seems
- to be a move by the West at least to target military
- actions carefully and avoid civlian casualties and
- I applaud that.

Right on, IMHO.

However, we do not know what this P-38 pilot drove to such an act, and therefore I guess we shouldn't judge him.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:45 PM
MetalGear_ wrote:
- Right on, IMHO.
-
- However, we do not know what this P-38 pilot drove
- to such an act, and therefore I guess we shouldn't
- judge him.

I'm not sure if we can or can't. If he'd been
German then I am sure he would be judged, rightly
or wrongly.

Probably war can probably do terrible
things to people, and so sometimes people aren't fully
in control of their minds - a form of temporary
insanity. It's difficult to know how to deal with
war crimes trials and so on if that's a defence though.
It's a very, very tricky subject. The human mind
and its motivations and where responsibility lies is
something that has troubled philiophers for the past
4000 years, and probably will occupy them a good portion
of the next 4000.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:59 PM
I once read about an RAF fighter pilot whose whole family was killed in BOB bombing. He became obsessed with killing Germans. He would even chase German planes into friendly flak. He once shot down a German bombers and came back with pieces of flesh and blood splattered over his plane. He wouldn't let the ground crews clean it off.

He didn;t survive very long.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 10:17 PM
First I would like to say thanks for these links, lots of great info on actual WW2 aerial combat was just what i was looking for.

Now as far the P38 pilot crashing while attempting to chew up an Me110 crew; while it is easy to sit back in our comfy homes and say how dishonorable that seems, I don't think many of us can actually put our mind close to the mind state of this pilot witnessing death every day on levels we can hardly imagine. I myself can second guess and say how foolish this type of attack seems, but I have no idea what this man had just experienced(possibly a lost comrade as a result of this aircrew) that put him into a rage to risk his neck to get them. But I can tell you that if he had bullets and had decided to use them in the context of war he would have been justified. As has been stated above, if that crew survived they would have contributed to killing more allied troops and pilots, so its his DUTY to eliminate them if he had the chance. If not, it could have even come back directly to him.(refering Tom Hanks character in "Saving Private Ryan" fictional I know, but don't believe for a second that this sort of thing never happened). Of course how he went about doing that was pretty questionable.


Now someone shooting my chute online is a whole different matter, but at least I'll be looking for their butt with 20mm within 3 minutes.

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 10:36 PM
Man, just finished reading about P38, always liked this plane, but now CAN'T WAIT to get it in FB!!

http://www.hut.fi/~andres/m44/m44_5t.jpg

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