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View Full Version : snap stallls- does this sound familiar to anyone?



antifreeze
10-01-2005, 02:57 PM
I'm totally fed-up with 4.01. It has ruined the game for me; I haven't really bothered playing since June. I wonder if it is just me or are others having the same difficulties? Does the following reflect your experience?

Before 4.01 I could turn very well with the allied aircraft. I'd look up the best turn speed for the aircraft I was using, and at that speed I'd be able to roll the aircraft so it was perpendicular to the ground and pull my stick right back. If the aircraft started shaking too much, I would let the stick forward a little and/or reduce throttle. I'd keep the nose up with some occasional rudder during the turn.

However, now in nearly all allied aircraft I cannot turn with the aircraft perpendicular to the ground. Usually I'm doing well to get it past 70 degrees without snap stalling in the opposite direction to the way I'm turning. If I do go perpendicular the nose drops, and when I apply rudder to correct it, the aircraft immediately snap-stalls.

I'm being out-turned by some Axis aircraft that before 4.01 I could usually beat in a turn fight. I'm really cheesed off.

Is anyone else experiencing this?
Any tips for turn fighting in Allied aircraft, specifically, how do you adapt to the new flight model? How do you get the same performance out of the aircraft that was achieved before 4.01?

Cheers.

carguy_
10-01-2005, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
I'm totally fed-up with 4.01. It has ruined the game for me; I haven't really bothered playing since June. I wonder if it is just me or are others having the same difficulties? Does the following reflect your experience?

I recommend turning stalls&spins off.There you go ,you can still play the game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The problem with snap stalls is that snap stalls are modelled on planes that never had such stall characteristics.I have problems with IAR80 and P51 and P400.Very tough planes to turnfight but at least two of them aren`t meant to turn fight.


Before 4.01 I could turn very well with the allied aircraft. I'd look up the best turn speed for the aircraft I was using, and at that speed I'd be able to roll the aircraft so it was perpendicular to the ground and pull my stick right back. If the aircraft started shaking too much, I would let the stick forward a little and/or reduce throttle. I'd keep the nose up with some occasional rudder during the turn.

Yup,that is the problem with snap stall.It should be there if a certain plane actually featured snap stalls.That`s how it is.



However, now in nearly all allied aircraft I cannot turn with the aircraft perpendicular to the ground. Usually I'm doing well to get it past 70 degrees without snap stalling in the opposite direction to the way I'm turning. If I do go perpendicular the nose drops, and when I apply rudder to correct it, the aircraft immediately snap-stalls.

I noticed the very same thing when I apply close to full rudder.If the rudder input goes smooth,the process occures without trouble.Maybe you need some filtering or different input settings.


I'm being out-turned by some Axis aircraft that before 4.01 I could usually beat in a turn fight. I'm really cheesed off.

This is referred as the slat issue.Planes with slats do very well in turn fights.It hasn`t been fixed in beta4.02.Really too bad cuz with slats even a high wingloaded plane can win in turns when stretched to the very envelope.

FoolTrottel
10-01-2005, 03:52 PM
Does the following reflect your experience?

Nope, not at all!


Any tips for turn fighting in Allied aircraft

Ehhmm... what allied aircraft are we talking about?
Some were not made for turn fighting...


how do you adapt to the new flight model?

By checking and tuning my controls-sensitivities... and doing that more than once.... even up to a point in which I tend to create sensitivity-settings per aircraft... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
(Are you using pedals?)

I'm not sure if that approach of yours is the best way ... better prevent the aircraft from 'shaking too much' or shaking at all.... as shaking means yer getting (too?) near to a stall....

Have Fun!

F19_Ob
10-01-2005, 04:07 PM
Actually most planes snapstall less in 4.01.(hear me out m8)
The snapstall exists but all planes enter the stall smoother than 3.04 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif (flew them parallel for a while to get on top of the changes). However the whole FM is harder to cope with because of the somewhat increased torque wich really makes it harder to maneuver hard at slower speeds, especially if one tries to center the ball with applying rudder.
My 3.04 flying didn't work either and as u I snapped in hard pulls.
I got it sorted by flying unclean, = avoiding to center the ball in hard turns, and that works better.
Spins are also different and affects some planes more than other.
For example the p39 is harder, not so much in maneuvereing but if one enter a spin one needs more altitude to recover than before. P51 got affected in another way and dont need spin-recovery at all (just release stick and wait).
So some tweaking on the individual level likely will take place.

If u still would feel that 401 snappstalls easier U may install 3.04 parallel and discover that the snap infact comes immediately in all speeds in 3.04 without the softer entering of 401.
The torque is the enemy. I doesn't seem to affect that much but it does. Many still mess up the landings and takeoffs (me too occasionally)

Also in 3.04 the use of rudder in hard maneuvering was really bad in a few planes (p40 and p39 for ex.)
In 3.04 p40 was the plane that one was extra carefull to handle roughly in slow speed.
Now in 4.01 it isn't as vichious I think, but low on E.

Well, my take on it.
Please feel free to disagree m8's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tully__
10-01-2005, 04:12 PM
If you turn at the limit in a 90 degree bank you will lose altitude. To maintain a level turn you MUST have less than 90 degree bank. If you try to maintain altitude with rudder in a 90 degree bank you deserve to snap stall.

F19_Ob
10-01-2005, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Tully__:
.....you deserve to snap stall.

uj uj, man. U do have a hard side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
10-01-2005, 05:01 PM
Freeze, maintaining altitude at 70 degree without rudder means 4.01 is probably more realistic.

90 degree bank turn hehe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

good one Freeze http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

danjama
10-01-2005, 05:34 PM
You shouldnt "yank" the stick back at all whats wrong with you? Didnt you learn anything from the original IL2? Nice easy movements from the stick please or you will be sent to the corner to think about what you have done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif Seriously though, apply some good stick settings then maybe yanking will be ok but i am gentle on the stick and i rarely getsnap stalls. And guess what, im even using a good old twisty stick and hat switch.

Jetbuff
10-01-2005, 05:36 PM
Yes, at 90? ALL of your lift is directed towards turning, so, unless you lose altitude you should stall every time. At that point though you're not flying but dropping rather.

TooCooL34
10-02-2005, 01:56 AM
Rudder, rudder and rudder. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

You're losing the air in vertical stabilizer during mid to low speed turn.

WTE_Ibis
10-02-2005, 02:21 AM
Your lift vector at 90 degrees is horizontal, that aint gonna hold anything up, you go down be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tomtheyak
10-02-2005, 06:00 AM
torque is all important now... for the aircraft you fly know which way the torque effects operate and use your tactics accordingly - if u turn against the torque, u won't turn as tightly and will have to hold extra rudder against it especially as u slow and the torque wants to roll u out level - and using too much aileron at this stage, so near the stall, will cause you to snap spin. When turning with the torque the aircarft can turn quite tightly but remember again as you slow you'll have to apply opposite rudder to counteract the roll - sounds crazy but it's to do with dihedral effect and adverse yaw - i find it a littl bewildering too....

F19_Ob
10-02-2005, 06:50 AM
Another constructive suggestion for better turning results is to use high- and low yoyos more often to reduce the turningcircle.

Practice on these and try to find the edge on how steeply and fast u can perform them in your plane of choice.
I use this all the time online, wich allows me to catch even careful experts sometimes. I often fly poor performing planes compared to the opposition.

I guess one must familiarise oneself with the new FM.
The hig- or low yoyo is especially effective if u detect that the opponent have higher speed.
However one must be carefull with some opponents, especially 109's, wich can break hard and bleed their speed faster than most other planes and then accellerate back to high speed fast, aswell as climb steeply from slow speed.

P40, p39, and even spits have vicious characteristics close to stall and hard pulls like in the 109 cant be performed close to this speed.
spits however have a better turn at medium and higher speeds.

Another thing with 4.01 is that seemingly most planes have changed in the energy department.
energyplanes keep energy better than in 3.04, and poor energyplanes have a harder time to retain it, so for the poor performers keeping energy is a juggling act IMO.

again my opinions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

antifreeze
10-02-2005, 07:02 AM
Thanks for all the replies.

I have tried to change my stick settings. No changes seem to improve the situation, so I guess I have it set-up OK. I use a twist stick, not pedals.

For example, the when in an earlier version Spit or La7 at low level, I used to be able to out-turn just about anything if I kept optimum speed. And I could easily do a couple of circles riding just at the edge of a stall. My angle was about 95-90 degrees; the horizon was perpendicular. Yes, a little height was lost during the turns, but not much.

Now, I can't get anywhere near that angle, and nowhere near full elevation deflection without spinning or stalling. All the aircraft that I'd previously been able to out-turn are now very easily out-turning me.

Your answers do seem to fit in with my experience in that no-one else seems to be having this much trouble. Perhaps that's why everyone else is able to shoot me down so easily? I've been playing for three years, and I've got rookies shooting me down regularly! It shouldn't be like that! Something is screwy, but I don't know what. I'm on the edge of uninstalling this beloved game.

FoolTrottel
10-02-2005, 07:35 AM
not pedals.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

You sure the twist stick is working all okay?

Go get some pedals, it's more fun flying!
Here's a suggestion: home-build style!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Rudder1.jpg

HellToupee
10-02-2005, 07:56 AM
Spits have very nasty snap stall in 4.01, while it can turn with 109s, 109s can pull moves spitfires cant dare to follow, also you must be very very gentle with controls while 109 allows you to be ham fisted, i find p51 is less snap stall prone than the spit.

Stigler_9_JG52
10-02-2005, 04:53 PM
I use a twist stick, not pedals

Problem #2. Get rid of that twisty toy and get some pedals. I still don't understand how anyone can use a joystick and not inadvertently add some kind of torque into the handle while flying. It's not natural to assume you can only add torque to one side or the other when you really want to. That's why pedals are placed at the feet and are not hand controls. They're not meant to be.

Problem #1 is your lack of knowledge of why a plane will tend to stall when you're holding a 90 degree bank with your stick in your guts, and allowing yourself into a situation where the torque can spazz you out. Take the advice offered here and learn to manage your turns better... and going further, use your energy more effectively so you don't have to rely on max turns to get the job done so often.

antifreeze
10-02-2005, 07:40 PM
I'm trying to turn better, but I just don't 'get it'. I used to 'get it' before 4.01, but now I don't. I've tried experimenting with turns to see what gets good results, but there is little improvement no matter what I do.

I have noticed tonight though that there is a definite difference online than offline. I can turn more sharply offline and control the aircraft better; the manoeuvres seem much more like the old flight model.
And also, I noticed that the aircraft seemed to handle better on one of the ian boys' new maps when online (I don't know which one it was).

Is this possible? Can certain maps and being offline affect the flight model?

Stigler_9_JG52
10-02-2005, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
I'm trying to turn better, but I just don't 'get it'. I used to 'get it' before 4.01, but now I don't.

Before 4.01, torque was little to no factor, so you could ride the edge more. Now that it's adding its force to the equation, you're not "getting away with" what you used to get away with.

To deal with it, don't bank so sharply, and don't turn so sharply. And, learn how to use your rudder to forestall the snap. It'll take some practice to find that "line", but in the real event, that's what often separated the quick from the dead: knowing the envelope of the plane down to a very fine margin.

VW-IceFire
10-02-2005, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
I'm trying to turn better, but I just don't 'get it'. I used to 'get it' before 4.01, but now I don't. I've tried experimenting with turns to see what gets good results, but there is little improvement no matter what I do.

I have noticed tonight though that there is a definite difference online than offline. I can turn more sharply offline and control the aircraft better; the manoeuvres seem much more like the old flight model.
And also, I noticed that the aircraft seemed to handle better on one of the ian boys' new maps when online (I don't know which one it was).

Is this possible? Can certain maps and being offline affect the flight model?
In reference to the original question and your latest post I think you've got some sort of bad habit built in there that you need to get yourself out of. It might be a good idea to post a track of you doing something and show us where its going wrong.

I can only assume you are being too rough on the controls. You can snap stall a plane in 4.01, but there is more of a gradual stall then a snap if you really push it. I think maybe you aren't feeling the actual stall and you're pushing it alot further than it should be. The trick I've sometimes used is to intentionally stall the plane in a very rapid turn (say with a Yak-9). It bleeds a ton of energy, the plane goes extremely high AoA, I sit tight on the rudder, and sometimes I manage to totally shake the 109 that was on my tail (most guys aren't as crazy as me). Needless to say, it would have straight snap stalled me in 3.04 after a bit of buffeting. 4.01 feels much more real in this regard.

As for maps affecting settings...not really. BUT...check your offline difficulty sliders and watch what each host sets for their games. I've been on maps where they turned torque off and it feels like im flying on bloody rails http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another thing to check for in most planes is...are you centering the ball? If not, take a hard look into rudder trim to keep the plane flying straight...so when you do go to make moves you're fighting the torque as much as possible through trim and then your own rudder adjustments when necessary.

I honestly think you've developed some really nasty bad habits and you just need to break through them. Take some time, practice offline, get a feel for things again. I always, esspecially when a patch comes out, start up a QMB and start practicing my favorite planes. You get re-aquainted and then there are no surprises.

Tully__
10-03-2005, 11:09 AM
Maps do affect flight behaviour very slightly. The winter maps model very low temperatures, giving better engine cooling @ sea level and increasing the altitude at which engine performance and "sensitive" handling traits appear. The pacific and desert maps model warmer than average air, reducing altitudes at which those traits manifest themselves.

Online/offline should be no difference if difficulty levels are the same. I've heard a large number claim otherwise but I've yet to observe anything concrete in this regard myself.

Jetbuff
10-03-2005, 11:28 AM
You are doing 2 things wrong:
(a) you're banking too far, at 90 degrees you have 0 lift perpendicular to the ground to resist gravity and are simply "knifing" through the air. On it's own it's not a problem though... however...
(b) you are also trying to maintain the turn by pulling the stick far back without losing altitude. That simply will not do, for two reasons: you can't resist gravity with no lift and you will quickly exceed critical AoA without losing altitude (and therefore maintaining speed)

i.e., the rules of aerodynamics dictate that you SHOULD stall when you do what you are doing. If you were able to do so before then that FM was flawed.

Finally, online, I believe that joystick polling gets reduced a little bit, directly or indirectly, making the joystick response slightly jittery. This will be marked in more object-heavy missions and indeed you could probably reproduce it offline if you weighed down your offline mission with a lot of objects.


Hard, stick in your guts turning is highly overrated btw. Try to learn some E-fighting and basic BFM geometry. I particularly recommend lag pursuit, vector repositioning in the vertical and, if you have the closure, high yo-yo's.

Loco-S
10-03-2005, 02:11 PM
Read this book, it will enlighten you a little on the art of flying:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

Tully__
10-03-2005, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Loco-S:
Read this book, it will enlighten you a little on the art of flying:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/
Also this one:

http://www.av8n.com/how/

antifreeze
10-04-2005, 12:46 PM
Seriously good links there. Thanks.