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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:45 PM
ever been modeled in a flight sim?

I ask that because a FB Pacific add on could be made around the beginning and the end of the war against Japan with 3 or 4 maps: Khalkin Gol, Okinawa, Mandchuria and maybe Hiroshima (but that last one could be case sensitive).

Also, if carrier-based aircraft couldn't be implanted in the actual FB engine, we could make do with land-based Marine Corsairs and/or other USAAF aircraft(iirc some have been used that way on Okinawa) and models of US battleship, cruiser, destroyer and landing craft.

Some thoughts?

<center>Qui vainc sans risque triomphe sans gloire.</center>
<center>http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/tempestv_t.jpg </center>

Edit:grammar

Message Edited on 06/17/0311:12AM by eiffel68

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:45 PM
ever been modeled in a flight sim?

I ask that because a FB Pacific add on could be made around the beginning and the end of the war against Japan with 3 or 4 maps: Khalkin Gol, Okinawa, Mandchuria and maybe Hiroshima (but that last one could be case sensitive).

Also, if carrier-based aircraft couldn't be implanted in the actual FB engine, we could make do with land-based Marine Corsairs and/or other USAAF aircraft(iirc some have been used that way on Okinawa) and models of US battleship, cruiser, destroyer and landing craft.

Some thoughts?

<center>Qui vainc sans risque triomphe sans gloire.</center>
<center>http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/tempestv_t.jpg </center>

Edit:grammar

Message Edited on 06/17/0311:12AM by eiffel68

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:51 PM
The only A bomb I´ve ever seen in a sim (if you may call it that way) was in F22 from Novalogic...it made kind of a giant mushroom. It was funny indeed.I guess it was a B61 or something similar.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:54 PM
Manhattan Project for CFS2, quite funny...

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 03:58 PM
F/A-18 Precision Strike Fighter had a nuclear bomb, but it was very pitiful. And the old MIG-29 sim I had waaaaaaaaaay back you could blow up a nuclear reactor which had a great bang sequence.

Rageman - Living up to his name.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:02 PM
Bender2k2 wrote:
- Manhattan Project for CFS2, quite funny...
-
-

I remember it well because the first time I dropped the bomb over Wake island I heard a hiss and then a smell of burning plastic... I had fragged my TNT2 graphics card/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:04 PM
SmokeJaguar wrote:
-
- Bender2k2 wrote:
-- Manhattan Project for CFS2, quite funny...
--
--
-
- I remember it well because the first time I dropped
- the bomb over Wake island I heard a hiss and then a
- smell of burning plastic... I had fragged my TNT2
- graphics card/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif That´s what I call realism!!!!

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:06 PM
Imagine what a Oleg style A-bomb would look alike if we take as reference the actual mini-nuke in FB./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

<center>Qui vainc sans risque triomphe sans gloire.</center>
<center>http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/images/tempestv_t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:52 PM
SmokeJaguar wrote:
-
- Bender2k2 wrote:
-- Manhattan Project for CFS2, quite funny...
--
--
-
- I remember it well because the first time I dropped
- the bomb over Wake island I heard a hiss and then a
- smell of burning plastic... I had fragged my TNT2
- graphics card

Well, A-Bomb launched over Hiroshima was many kilotons of TNT worth... Quite straight that you had to fry you poor alone TNT! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW maybe could be not so funny joking about this... There were people under that big blast, and the little survived will not ever forget. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Hope nobody will have this expereince again...

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:56 PM
Umm, no. Period!!! We can't do that because we'd need a Tu-4. The B-29 copy, and only then could we get an A-bomb.

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:57 PM
I think that modelling an A-bomb in FB would only be valid if the next project after FB was the Pacific war

To bring us back On-Topic for the first time in this thread./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 05:03 PM
Bender2k2 wrote:
-
- Well, A-Bomb launched over Hiroshima was many
- kilotons of TNT worth... Quite straight that you had
- to fry you poor alone TNT!

It was an old computer even in the days when CFS2 was considered state of the art simming.

-
- BTW maybe could be not so funny joking about this...
- There were people under that big blast, and the
- little survived will not ever forget.

I never joke about real life death (well I have on several occasions but only to lift the mood).

One thing I always remember is that A bomb in CFS2 is just a game and yes it does depict the horrors of war in the extreme when the whole world was aflame but to be sensitive to events in our past to the extent that any depiction in a computer game, book or comic should be met with stoic silence and reverence will only help to sanitise the facts in the long term (IMHO).

-
- Hope nobody will have this expereince again...
-
-

As do I but with events apace in the world in our age it looks like its may be only a matter of time (touch wood).



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:14 PM
strange question... you can play massmurderer, very cool indeed...

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:17 PM
No one has every made a pacific sim from the start or the war till the surrender of jpn.along with chinas role it would make a great sim moreso then North africas flat desert landscape


Author: eiffel68
Rank: Over 300 Postings
Date: 06/17/03 03:06PM




Imagine what a Oleg style A-bomb would look alike if we take as reference the actual mini-nuke in FB.


chop chop chop warp warp sound glitch sound glitch loud sound glitch in the distance freeze freeze




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Message Edited on 06/17/0305:18PM by LeadSpitter_

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:32 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
- strange question... you can play massmurderer, very
- cool indeed...

Cant tell who this is addressed too but just in case...

No I am not getting into a morality debate in a games forum as experience tells me words in this medium changes nothing apart from personal post counts. All I will say that if a nuke is part of the arsenal in a game I will use it and use it a lot. Are you seriously going to say I am a wanabe mass murderer?

Also I never said it makes me cool. You seem to have implied that I thought it did. Quite a big difference/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Message Edited on 06/17/0306:39PM by SmokeJaguar

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:38 PM
didnt mean you especially . i meant it more generall. even in the game i think it´ll be strange. its a giant weapon designed for massmurderer.


the 5000lbs bomb is big enough for a game i think...

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:40 PM
There was an F-16 sim several years back that modeled it (nukes). I didn't own the sim, but read about it in several places. It was advertised and excepted as being "real". Not sure what it was called.

Some time around the same time as the newest Falcon was originally released.


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:40 PM
I agree with that. If one virtual nuke can fry my TNT2 to the extent that it literaly jumps out of its housing,
imagine what a sever of nukes going off will do to a Geforce4ti/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:46 PM
with the exception of napalm I haven't really seen incendiarys in here.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 06:58 PM
I've always found it odd that folks have no problem "joking about" sinking battleships filled with over a thousand people or dropping digital conventional bombs on Leningrad or Helsinki, and "killing" individual pilots by the thousands, but feel we need to adopt a reverential tone when discussing the bombing of Hiroshima. War is war and killing is killing and it's all bad, but if we who waste our time sitting in front of computers pretending to be warriors can't joke about all of it, we are taking ourselves too seriously.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:05 PM
Right on zoomar /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:14 PM
with what plane can you drop a 5000lbs bomb?


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:15 PM
PE-8 (its AI)

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:18 PM
You couldn't be more right Zoomar. I can't stand it when some politically correct jerk gets on his high horse about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, speaking as though only they realise the true horror of war. Glad that you have brought these sanctimonious whiners back to reality.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:28 PM
Well, since this "Zoomar"-dude is on his way to become the new forum-hero, I have to say that there actually IS a difference between "joking about sinking a battle-ship" or bombing and nuking ten thousands of civilians to death.

And asking for a "Hiroshima-Map" indeed is strange.

That doesn`t mean to argue about if that bombing of Hiroshima was "justified" or not, but finding that funny or "a blast" is weird.


Well, I knew right from the beginning, that this thread had potential.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:44 PM
Agreed with SJ about joking about war... I had a strange feeling when I read my post preview, so I added those lines. I was frightened by many jokes I thought.

I think that all of us (well, maybe many of us) have maximum respect for all people died or injuried during all the wars. My mother became deaf during a bombing in Rome, but I pilot (simulated) He 111 and drop bombs over cities and smile to the blasts...

It's such a sad thing that there are so many people nowadays dieing in wars. I can't believe that somebody would like to use THE bomb again...

World's goin' crazy...

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:48 PM
BTW, can I map Megatons on a slider? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 07:58 PM
It is just a game lets stop talking about political correctness!

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:02 PM
Tried to, but have failed to stay out of this one.
Each of us has a line we draw in the sand. For some, it's quite flexible, others, might as well have been drawn in granite. Now none of us seems to have drawn it to where Fb and the like is past it. So pretending to kill and maim individual pilots, or a smattering of ground troops and naval personel is ok. Once we move beyond that line the problems begin. For some, the line is drawn at Pearl Harbor or Normandy Beaches. Write something about wishing the sim had that so you could "burn some krauts" or "put a few into the Arizona, wouldnt that be cool?" and watch the flames erupt. Others would be ok with that. Now light off Dresden or starve Stalingrad, more flames, and yet still we havent touched everyone yet. But when we get to nukin Hiroshima and Nagasaki, quite a few lines have been crossed. Would we cross them all with the 911 Sim or Holocaust3,NOW WITH EAX SUPPORT!! ? One has to wonder.
I find myself wondering about all this whenever I see a thread that touches on the subject-How much is too much?
I think about my own enjoyment of shoot-em-up sims and what they actually represent. Are they an extension of the toy soldiers I had as a kid, and as such are they any worse (or any better) than that innocent part of my youth? Or have we all been so conditioned to war and death that to play at it is just an extension of how we really feel and would act if only the constraints of so-called civilization did'nt prevent us from doing so?
I find it easier to just forget about the political aspects of this and other sims and just enjoy the game for what it is-a test of skill and the challenge of out-thinking my opponent, and Fb and the like are simply a good means of accomplishing this. Monopoly and the Sims don't work well on line, don't have motors and wings and stuff, and don't endear themselves to witty online conversation.
I think most if not all of us would be best off to not read so much into each others reasons for wanting BIG bombs and better bullets etc. It's all to be able to play the game better, have an advantage sometime, win for my side. I doubt we have a lot of wannabee Hitlers, Stalins, and Tojos (some might add Trumans here,I wont) who long for the days when the only good commie was one thats dead. Just play the game and enjoy it. Hope this makes sense.
long winded (for a change) rad


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:20 PM
Yep long winded (so what) and filled with a lot of common sense.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:24 PM
Couldnt wait till some idiot got 100m off the ground and dropped an A-bomb. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 08:27 PM
I would be dropping it before I even switched on my engines/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:13 PM
Hey, I've warned you:

-maybe Hiroshima (but that last one could be case sensitive)



So, what do you think of a limited Pacific-oriented FB addon only build around the early Soviet-Japanese Khalkin Gol battle, the Sino-japanese war, the battle of Okinawa and the late Soviet offensive in Mandchuria?

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:20 PM
Actually, Bender2k, very few people are 'dieing in wars'. Well, not unless they are applying colouring to fabrics...

Someone said that they found it odd that someone would think it 'a blast' to have a map of Hiroshima. Frankly, it's damn well obvious that it would be fun to simulate the seminal event of World War 2 and the dawn of the nuclear age.

Clearly some people here have been taking excessive doses of their political correctness pills. These are the people who find it necessary to pretend that we need to be in the least bit sorry for vaporising a few hundred thousand of our most inhumane enemy. You see, I don't remember ever hearing any Jap apologise to me for torturing my forefathers. Nor for that matter have the nips ever condescended to even say 'sorry' for putting allied prisoners of war to work in the most appalling conditions imaginable.

Given this, I for one would happily buy a sim that allowed me to pretend I was dropping some nuclear justice on the
most evil nation ever to take up arms against my country.

I look forward to hearing the storm of politically correct crap that will now issue forth from the keyboards of liberals and hippies who don't grasp the concept that liberty doesn't come free.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:26 PM
Be sure to have some patience to climb the plane to 10km so, you won't be affected by the blast radius.

serious, it is nog going to happen.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:45 PM
I want the A-Bomb...to protect my vital essence.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:51 PM
zholudev wrote:
- essence.


Essence.....




http://mysite.freeserve.com/jjffjj/images/0-picture.gif


http://jj33jj33.4t.com/images/grabble.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:52 PM
Yeah,them Japs were nuts they used to slit their belly open and then slice their throat because of the "shame" of losing a battle or the war.That gave them a pretty big incentive to not surrender.Like we're gonna play that game...Thanks to Truman and Oppenheimer we diddnt have to.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:55 PM
flamins wrote:
- Actually, Bender2k, very few people are 'dieing in
- wars'. Well, not unless they are applying colouring
- to fabrics...
-
- Someone said that they found it odd that someone
- would think it 'a blast' to have a map of Hiroshima.
- Frankly, it's damn well obvious that it would be fun
- to simulate the seminal event of World War 2 and the
- dawn of the nuclear age.
-
- Clearly some people here have been taking excessive
- doses of their political correctness pills. These
- are the people who find it necessary to pretend that
- we need to be in the least bit sorry for vaporising
- a few hundred thousand of our most inhumane enemy.
- You see, I don't remember ever hearing any Jap
- apologise to me for torturing my forefathers. Nor
- for that matter have the nips ever condescended to
- even say 'sorry' for putting allied prisoners of war
- to work in the most appalling conditions imaginable.
-
-
-
- Given this, I for one would happily buy a sim that
- allowed me to pretend I was dropping some nuclear
- justice on the
- most evil nation ever to take up arms against my
- country.
-
- I look forward to hearing the storm of politically
- correct crap that will now issue forth from the
- keyboards of liberals and hippies who don't grasp
- the concept that liberty doesn't come free.
-
-
-
-

Whoof,flamins not just a screen name for you, is it?
However, for the most part I agree with ya.
For my last birthday, my ma gave me a tape of an A&E special on Tarawa, where my Uncle Jimmy died 1 month before his 18th birthday. Seeing the fanatical struggle to the death the Japanese defenders put up reminded me once again the amount of carnage that might have occured had the US invaded Japan rather than end the war with a couple of nukes.
20 times the number of dead would have easily been the result, with the majority of the Japanese population eradicated from the face of the earth. In light of this, the decision to drop 2 A-bombs was the best answer to a hell of a question.
Japanese civilians suffered the most at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the same would have been true had the US invaded the home islands, for the Japanese home guard had been training civilians for months in preperation for the expected assault. At Okinawa, Japanese threw themselves over a cliff rather than deal with the American soldiers facing them.
As horrible as nuclear devices are, as of yet they have saved more lives than they have taken. I hope that continues to be the case.
Oh, and as far as nukes in FB? A friend and I tried to figure out how to create them, but as of now, have found it beyond our capabilities. But I too would would use 'em in a heartbeat.
rad

<center>RadsRoom-Racing
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:04 PM
radkiller wrote:
- As horrible as nuclear devices are, as of yet they
- have saved more lives than they have taken. I hope
- that continues to be the case.
-
- Oh, and as far as nukes in FB? A friend and I
- tried to figure out how to create them, but as of
- now, have found it beyond our capabilities. But I
- too would would use 'em in a heartbeat.
-
The US marines also use to say they will never surrender, would you find this normal to see the US nuked had the war turned bad.

Sorry, in my mind, there are no reasons that could justify the attacks...

BTW, it is very well known today that their main purpose was to impress the soviets and show them the power of the A-bomb (the japanese were already considering surrender as a solution by august 1944, the fact was that the allies wanted an unconditionnal surrender)...

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:10 PM
Radkiller, you had it right.
And furthermore, although A-bombs and conventional bombs have the same function (exploding), deep down, the intrinsic and intended purposes are very different.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:17 PM
I don't think a Pacific war scenario will attract many Europeans... a front that was fought on by BOTH Americans and Europeans would be much more suitable.

<center>
---------------------------------------
"Atleast I'll go down in style!"
http://www.elleemmeshop.com/model1/aero/re4341.jpg
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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:20 PM
Flamin, there is a difference between civilians and soldiers and the crazy nutters that ran Japan. Japan is on the other side of the world, they have been seperate from your culture for 4000 years, of course they think differently. I agree that they treated Allied PoWs abysmally, and the Japanese soldiers did bad things, but that does not justify killing civilians. The only good thing about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that they ended the war.

Why does no-one remember the night B-29s firebombed and destroyed Tokyo? 100,000 people died in one night.

I think that Hiroshima and late-war Pacific would be a boring thing to have, just flying over a country without any airforce left to kill civilians. I want the Med.

Philips CDRW

Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:21 PM
radkiller, I`ve read your first long post in this thread and I agreed to this very reasonable and well-balanced comment.


Your second post now is really disappointing.

I`m not going into a discussion wether the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified or not. You have some points there, but such discussions lead to nothing.

And that is not what "flaming"(sic) was talking about.


The fact that you agree to a post full of hate, nationalism and racism, pointing out that those "evils" deserved what they got (remember: we`re talking about women and children), and that means "vaporising" them, is very very disappointing.

This guy is nothing but a troll, or simply an idiot.

With your agreement you lost every reliability in my books.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:23 PM
nicli wrote:
-
--
- The US marines also use to say they will never
- surrender, would you find this normal to see the US
- nuked had the war turned bad.
-
- Sorry, in my mind, there are no reasons that could
- justify the attacks...
-
- BTW, it is very well known today that their main
- purpose was to impress the soviets and show them the
- power of the A-bomb (the japanese were already
- considering surrender as a solution by august 1944,
- the fact was that the allies wanted an
- unconditionnal surrender)...

Yeah nicli, I would. You see, the idea behind war (other than nam of course) is to win, not to see who can be the nicest, warmest, or fuzziest. It's actually MORE humane to go in with all you've got, with a true sense of purpose, than to try to pick you're way through and hope, what? The other country decides it made a mistake and makes all nicey?
Doesn't happen, hasn't happened, and (as once again, nam proves) won't happen. You think if Japan had had the Bomb, they would have hesitated for ONE SECOND to have used it? What other fantasies occupy your young mind. War is not a civilized, well thought out, follow the rules type of endevour. Never has been, never will be. A contradiction in terms. It's the very expectation that, if another nation has nukes, they will use them, that has been the cornerstone of US nuke policy for 5 decades. And you know what? It's worked. I was in the army. I've got combat experience under my belt. These are tough ideas to accept, but if you don't, better expect the guy you may be up against someday looking to deprive you and yours of all you have has. And the day will be his.
rad



<center>RadsRoom-Racing
<center>http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://www.il2airracing.com/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:26 PM
The fact was that the U.S. accepted a conditional surrender,otherwise Hirohito would have been held accountable for war crimes,which was unacceptible for the Japanese.Communist propaganda evidently has a long shelf life.The Marines wouldnt surrender because of the well known attitude of the Japanese,they considered those who surrendered to be the lowest form of life,and treated them as such.Nicli,just what source tells you that it was only to impress the Soviets?You have NO idea what the Pacific war was like.And sorry Chomsky and Zinn are not credible sources.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:48 PM
zoomar wrote:
- I've always found it odd that folks have no problem
- "joking about" sinking battleships filled with over
- a thousand people or dropping digital conventional
- bombs on Leningrad or Helsinki, and "killing"
- individual pilots by the thousands, but feel we need
- to adopt a reverential tone when discussing the
- bombing of Hiroshima. War is war and killing is
- killing and it's all bad, but if we who waste our
- time sitting in front of computers pretending to be
- warriors can't joke about all of it, we are taking
- ourselves too seriously.



i disagree. games and reallity are a big difference (although some people don´t get it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ).
its also a difference if soldiers fight against each other or if soldiers fight against civilians.

i think humor is not an excuse for everything /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:49 PM
In an industrial society during total war there are few innocents,the fact is that both targets had military value.With the large number of troops and the factories that supplied the war machine and the houses that did piecemeal work for that same machine they were legitimate targets.The fact is that the U.S. is the one who had the most misgivings concerning the realities of war in the 20th century in regards to "civilians" dying.Sure there were a few coldblooded ascholes,but not the ones who made the decisions.City bombing was practiced long before the U.S. got involved,and they are the ones responsible for introducing it into that conflict.Germany in Spain and Japan in China.They made a bad decision,The only reason the U.S. lost in Vietnam was cause of the Communists used the civilians with coercion and exploited the fact that the U.S. has an ingrained aversion to civilion casualties.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:50 PM
flamins wrote:
- You couldn't be more right Zoomar. I can't stand it
- when some politically correct jerk gets on his high
- horse about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, speaking as
- though only they realise the true horror of war.
- Glad that you have brought these sanctimonious
- whiners back to reality.



you should rename yourself to >>flaming<< because except of writing crap and crying this is all i can see from you...





---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:54 PM
HA,Newforki you should talk.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:55 PM
oh boy, this thread should be closed...


was a strange topic anyway... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:02 PM
eiffel68 wrote:

- Also, if carrier-based aircraft couldn't be
- implanted in the actual FB engine, we could make do
- with land-based Marine Corsairs and/or other USAAF
- aircraft(iirc some have been used that way on
- Okinawa) and models of US battleship, cruiser,
- destroyer and landing craft.

I want aircraft carriers.

I know not what course others may choose, but as for me, give me computer games or give me television!

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:03 PM
walter you nice?

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:07 PM
Nicli wrote -

Sorry, in my mind, there are no reasons that could
- justify the attacks...
-
- BTW, it is very well known today that their main
- purpose was to impress the soviets and show them the
- power of the A-bomb (the japanese were already
- considering surrender as a solution by august 1944,
- the fact was that the allies wanted an
- unconditionnal surrender)...


Whether we like it or not, civilians were targeted by ALL sides in WW2. More victims died in the Hamburg, Dresden, and Tokyo fire raids than died at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. The only difference is the "novelty" that these attacks were conducted by single bombers with a single new kind of weapon. At the end of the day, what is the real difference?

No justification? I suggest that you read up about the likely numbers of casualties which were expected to result on both sides from Operation Olympic, an Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands. The casualties suffered at Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been tiny in comparison. A hundred times more Japanese soldiers and civilians would have died in a fight for the home islands of Japan.

Even after the two atomic bombs were dropped, the Japanese military government STILL intended to carry on fighting. The Japanese homeland a complete armed camp with 500,000 fresh troops in the army alone. They were even arming units of housewives with homemade spears. Emperor Hirohito, to his everlasting credit, emerged from the traditional political sequestration of the imperial throne and politically intervened to stop the fighting. This was an historic precedent-breaking act on his part. Even then, the military diehards were such fanatics that they attempted (unsuccessfully) to stage a coup d'etat against Hirohito, which constituted an absolute and most extreme breach of the Japanese cultural compact. The Japanese militarists were unable to see beyond their own loss of face and were prepared to figuratively put the entire nation of Japan to the seppuku knife.

Why did the US drop the bombs? Well, we wanted to end the war sooner than later. We certainly did not look forward to suffering another million American casualties in an invasion of Japan proper. We did not look forward to being responsible for another five or ten million Japanese casualties. Neither were we interested in continuing to bear the huge expense of keeping the entire nation under arms any longer than absolutely necessary. Maybe there was also a secondary motive to "impress" the Russians, as you say. But, if so, it was far from the main reason behind the decision.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:38 PM
What a thread.

Personally I am against the use of nuclear weapons in games. There is really no justification to 'use' them and, in addition, usage of such weapons has very complex political and social factors associated with it.

What do you want, to wipe out an entire 'virtual' city? How real do you want it? 'realistic' would be having tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of casualties, rubble, radiation and an inhabitable environment - game over would be 'realistic'.

As for why the US dropped the bomb, the war was as good as won and I think they had no justification for dropping them at all. I suspect there are a number of factors, the 'importance' of which is not reflected by the order, that is left to the reader...

1. To let Japan surrender.
2. Retaliation for Perl Harbour.
3. To show the Soviets that the US would be in a domineering position after the war.
4. To test two different types of bomb, one Uranium and one Plutonium. Afterall, they would have been criticized for spending ~2 billion dollars on Truman politics otherwise.

Lets keep the nukes out of games, which depict enough destruction already. I have no wish to see a game portraying the bombing of cities such as Coventry & Dresden let alone the complete destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima by unjustified and inhumane weapons.

Lets hope we quickly see the end of those a______ Bush & Rumsfeld.

My 2 pence worth.
Matt.



http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:43 PM
yeah matt! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:43 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
- strange question... you can play massmurderer, very
- cool indeed...
-
----------------------------------------
-
-
-
-
-


Is that something new in games? Grand Theft Auto, Half-Life, Hitman, Postal, etc etc. List goes on and on. Playing as a massmurderer isn't anything new in games.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:45 PM
you see no difference?



---------------------------------------



under 30k?

The_Blue_Devil
06-17-2003, 11:57 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
- didnt mean you especially . i meant it more
- generall. even in the game i think it´ll be strange.
- its a giant weapon designed for massmurderer.
-
-
- the 5000lbs bomb is big enough for a game i think...

Go cry a new river..This whole game is about simulated death..do you feel bad pulling the trigger on an enemy plane? When you release a bomb load? or when you clearly see the enemy pilot bail out too late as happened many times in real life? To feel that it is "playing mass murderer" to use a simulated A bomb makes no sense...By that same thinking we are all "playing serial killer" by shooting down plane after plane after plane.


<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

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Message Edited on 06/17/0307:06PM by The_Blue_Devil

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 12:05 AM
Philipscdrw wrote:
- Why does no-one remember the night B-29s firebombed
- and destroyed Tokyo? 100,000 people died in one
- night.
-
- I think that Hiroshima and late-war Pacific would be
- a boring thing to have, just flying over a country
- without any airforce left to kill civilians. I want
- the Med.

I remember that..the wood and paper that their houses were constructed of plus the wind spread that fire ...horrible stuff. Certain countries at that time had primative thinking patterns m8..they did not see the difference between Civs and Military. I.E. the many Civilians killed at Pearl Harbor, Wake Island,Tokyo,etc. I agree though..the Med would make for a good change and more fun..but those Carrier Landings with the IL2 engine would be sweet.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:08 AM
Why would we need an A-Bomb? Just curious. Unless you trying to create new benchmark for IL2/FB LOL.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:10 AM
eiffel68 wrote:
- ever been modeled in a flight sim?

Done by a 3rd party in CFS2.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/japsig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:15 AM
There is a Japanese guy from Hiroshima on my rugby team. We call him Kaboom sometimes. He's cool and likes to joke about it. He said "tora tora tora" one day. That was damn funny.

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:28 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
...



i stated my opinion. you stated yours. i guess we both won´t convince each other.





---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:30 AM
I am very nice unless someone wants to kill or maim me or try to force a totalitarian style government on me.Which is what Communism is about.Its based on a fantasy that disregards human nature and Iwill never submit to it.Never!

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:34 AM
NuFoerki wrote:
-
- i stated my opinion. you stated yours. i guess we
- both won´t convince each other.
-

Thats exactly why I wrote a very long post for this thread only to hit the back button in the browser as the realisation of utter futility dawned on me/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



&lt;script>a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor="#005E4D";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundPosition="center center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat"</script>
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<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#FF0000,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#1A0000"face="americanabt">I love my P39.... Doh!
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:35 AM
WalterMitty wrote:
- I am very nice unless someone wants to kill or maim
- me or try to force a totalitarian style government
- on me.Which is what Communism is about.Its based on
- a fantasy that disregards human nature and Iwill
- never submit to it.Never!
-
-


LOL - of course none of that sounds like the US Goverment at all does it, lemme see - how do you spell corruption, oil, contracts, control, imposing, middle east, fc_k*rs !

As for a plane that can carry a big bomb, Lancasters carried the 22,000lb 'Grand Slam' bomb, as shown by this picture - note the guy next to it.

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/bombscompared2.jpg


/m

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg


Message Edited on 06/17/0311:36PM by mattduggan

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:39 AM
mattduggan wrote:
- LOL - of course none of that sounds like the US
- Goverment at all does it, lemme see - how do you
- spell corruption, oil, contracts, control, imposing,
- middle east, fc_k*rs !

What?



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JOIN OUR SQUAD TODAY!
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The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 12:40 AM
mattduggan wrote:
-
- LOL - of course none of that sounds like the US
- Goverment at all does it, lemme see - how do you
- spell corruption, oil, contracts, control, imposing,
- middle east, fc_k*rs !
-
Yea but in any other country without US freedoms you'd have been arrested and beaten by now for posting what you just posted.. No one says the Gov is squeaky clean..but it is still better than many others out there.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/361FGsmall.gif'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:45 AM
- Yea but in any other country without US freedoms
- you'd have been arrested and beaten by now for
- posting what you just posted..

You chaps always say that. You guys even go against your own constitution when it suits, remember the anti-globalisation thing? What was it, people have the right to demonstrate - do they indeed?

- No one says the Gov
- is squeaky clean..but it is still better than many
- others out there.

That is true, it is 'better' than many others but also has a lot to answer for, as does A.N.Other government http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (power currupts, absolute power n'all.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

/m



Message Edited on 06/17/0311:47PM by mattduggan

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:57 AM
Wow, for a relative newbie its humbling to be referred to as a "forum-hero".

My point wasn't that we should never be serious about a human tragedy like Hiroshima or (let's start another series of anguished posts) Auschwitz, but that people who enjoy sitting in front of a monitor and pretending to kill other human beings in the most horrible war in history betweem hellish totalitarian states can't be taken seriosuly as advocates for pacifism and global tolerance. Let's just lighten up and revel in the pretend carnage. Me, if I had a B-29 (Tu-4) and an A-bomb in this game, I would flatten Berlin, Leningrad, and Helsinki in a minute just to watch the rubble bounce. I would never want this to happen in reality to any real Germans, Russians, or Finns, but this is a game. Have fun. Kill pixel people. Let's save our moralizing for other places. Now, I'm off to send some Pe-8's over Berlin with those mini-nuke 5000 lb bombs. Ta ta.

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 01:04 AM
mattduggan wrote:
- You chaps always say that. You guys even go against
- your own constitution when it suits, remember the
- anti-globalisation thing? What was it, people have
- the right to demonstrate - do they indeed?

You have the right to demonstrate peacefully..not take a bunch of rocks, bottles, and cans and break the windows of StarBucks coffee shops. Those protesters are a bunch of "Cause of the Moment rejects" that give protesting a bad name. With the proper permits and peaceful demonstration things like that do not happen. We also have the freedom of speech..but you can'yt yell "Fire!!!" in a theater. I suppose you have to be raised here and be taught this in school as you grow up..It is drilled in your head in Social/Political Science class.

-- No one says the Gov
-- is squeaky clean..but it is still better than many
-- others out there.
-
- That is true, it is 'better' than many others but
- also has a lot to answer for, as does A.N.Other
- government /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (power currupts, absolute power
- n'all.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Absolutely



<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:09 AM
In that case, can I have ICBM's and 'moon lasers'?


- Dr. Evil
Cause your not quite evil enough. Your semi-evil, your quasi-evil, your the margarine of evil, your the diet coke of evil, just one calorie, not "evil" enough

http://www.austinpowers.com/EVIL/gallery/img/evil-pinky1.jpg


http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:16 AM
well we dont have a problem strafing pilots while thier parachutting down. " well most of us "

but a death is a death weather 1 or 1 million each as inportant as any of the others. whats the differnce in saying 1 million died in a blast and 10 million died in the war. its all terribel. so if your going to draw a line please draw it at one instead of some number that to you is unacceptable.

anyway.... whatever.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:27 AM
Always enjoy what the bleeding hearts have to say about the SBC or the A-bomb.

They convienently forget, and never mention, it was their countries the anihilated 6,000,000 trully innocents or were reason the for the horror of the Rape of Nanking.


NuF you really should stop posting after being into the sauce.




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:36 AM
MiloMorai wrote:

- Always enjoy what the bleeding hearts have to say
- about the SBC or the A-bomb.
-
- They convienently forget, and never mention, it was
- their countries the anihilated 6,000,000 trully
- innocents or were reason the for the horror of the
- Rape of Nanking.



Haven`t read the thread Milo?

It`s not about the A-bomb (allthough some here tried to turn it to it), its about "enjoying" the playing of "vaporizing" a whole city with hundret thousands of civilians.

I have never seen someone asking for an "Auschwitz-Map", so don`t try to mix things here.


And if I`d follow the logic of some here, then may I ask for a 767 and a "Manhattan-Map"?

See the point?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:42 AM
Yeah right,workers of the world unite!Reminds me of Pravda.Blow it out your a5s,commie.Mr. superiorty complex.Mr. compare everthing the U.S. does, to perfection.Grow up ,perfection isnt possible and only idiots expect it.Clown fools,where you live probably sux but it aint the U.S.'s fault,you and your socialist fantasy.That idiot Marx influenced the leaders that exterminated over 100 million people including Hitler,yeah thats right Hitler used Communistic methods too.Fu5kin commies you want some?We beat you before,we shoulda did like we did to the Nazis,instead the poison still infects the useful idiots and still causes needless suffering.Did I say the U.S. is perfect?Oh no!Our forefathers left Europe because they couldnt stand living there,and Europe has expressed a disdain for anything American except when their lives DEPENDED on America for the survival of their nation.Blow me!
!

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:47 AM
WalterMitty wrote:

------------------



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:48 AM
What's the matter leonid, hit a raw nerve?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:50 AM
radkiller wrote:
-
- Yeah nicli, I would. You see, the idea behind war
- (other than nam of course) is to win, not to see who
- can be the nicest, warmest, or fuzziest. It's
- actually MORE humane to go in with all you've got,
- with a true sense of purpose, than to try to pick
- you're way through and hope, what? The other country
- decides it made a mistake and makes all nicey?

Negaciated peace is the most common occurence, look around the world.

- Doesn't happen, hasn't happened, and (as once again,
- nam proves) won't happen. You think if Japan had
- had the Bomb, they would have hesitated for ONE
- SECOND to have used it?

Yes, I think so, even if I don't know what they wuld have decided.

- What other fantasies occupy
- your young mind.

These "fantasies" relate to the fact I don't consider crime against humanity as an acceptable policy.

- It's the very expectation that, if another
- nation has nukes, they will use them, that has been
- the cornerstone of US nuke policy for 5 decades.
- And you know what? It's worked.

It wasn't the US nuke policy, if it had been, the US and the USSR would have nuked each other long ago and the world would have turned to a giant mass grave (and that's not what I would call "working").

P.S. : Look at the soviets who took 600 000 POWs (for 150 000 japanese killed and 8000 of their own losses) in a week in Manchuria (and these were not civilians) : where were the suicide attacks by surrounded units or the soldiers committing suicide rather than surrendering, or all the other apocaliptical predictions of stubborn and suicidal resistance usually used to justify the use of the nuke ?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:51 AM
Not you Milo, but some asshats in here actually did.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


But then again.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:02 AM
WalterMitty, your the f'ckin' man. Bless you.



____________________________________



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<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#33CCFF,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#white"face="americanabt">Support our Troops</font></table></center>

<center><b/><table style="filter:glow[color=#FF3300,strength=4)"><TD><font color="#white"face="americanabt">U S A</font></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:02 AM
I know I'm getting sucked in, but I can't resist the pull (or is it push) of the OT black hole, and my backspace key just ain't working today:

mattdugan wrote:
--You chaps always say that. You guys even go against your
--own constitution when it suits, remember the
--anti-globalisation thing? What was it, people have the
--right to demonstrate - do they indeed?

Yes they do. However, nothing gives them the right to show up in gas masks, with plenty of tools to "do battle" with globalization. You can yell and scream to your heart's content in our country, but not when it gets in the way of other people. I know, it's frustrating when nobody listens or cares about a demonstration, but the concept that "if they won't listen then we must interrupt their lives and damage their property" is a flawed approach. I know some of the dweebs from Seattle, and they were there for a party and a riot from the beginning.

- leonid05 wrote:

- And if I`d follow the logic of some here, then may I
- ask for a 767 and a "Manhattan-Map"?

Yes you may, but it's really gonna throw the whole 1946 scheme out of wack.

As for the A-Bomb, I'm with Blue Devils sentiments....

Think about what this game represents...small slugs of metal flying through the air, slicing/gashing/perforating life and limb so that blood runs out, flames sear, bones shatter and air becomes suffocating.

Who here doesn't enjoy watching a Mig or 109 fall from the sky slowly "crisping" the guy inside?

Anyone who screams about the humanity of simulating an A-Bomb in a combat sim is a delusional hypocrite.

(unless, of course, their bullets and bombs could have never potentially hit a simulated civilian target, then they are just rosy peaches practicing a pure form of warfare).







Message Edited on 06/21/03 01:04AM by zholudev

Message Edited on 06/21/0301:05AM by zholudev

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:14 AM
Should civilians be held responsible for the actions of their government? They obviously were punished for it, regardless.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:29 AM
Would I be wrong to think that Lieniod considers himself an "intellectual"?Hmm Orwell comes to mind.Yeah thats right I'm an Anti-Communist.I havent forgotten the ColdWar,and I also am aware of the damage done to this great country by our adversary.I will never submit to those who would think for me,and I will CHOOSE what I make of my life.Give me LIBERTY or give me death.The State is secondary,though thanks to the Communist infiltration over the last 50 years there has been a erosion of the principles of what this country stands for.Thats why Bush is so unpopular abroad,cause he rejects all this "World govt" B.S.This idea that we're all the same,ah B.S.,every country has a different view of the world,and the most that can be hoped for is that we have enough in common that we wont decide to kill each other,but there are those whose views cannot be reconciled,and they must be dealt with according to the actions that they take.Thats it.I know what the American people are about,and killing and destruction aint it.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:17 AM
Forget the poor misled Americans and there imperialist schemes.



The real reason nuclear weapons are not in the game is they would kill the FPS big time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:36 AM
Yep,Europe imagining we're ignorant and backwards aint nothin new.Rejection hurts don't it?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:18 AM
flamins wrote:
- Actually, Bender2k, very few people are 'dieing in
- wars'. Well, not unless they are applying colouring
- to fabrics...

Late work typo... Sorry /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I've read the complete thread again, and I will state my idea again. I'm not against an A-Bomb in a game and I'm not against simulating violence. I enjoy playing games (actually one game, 'cause I only play FB...) where there's violence. And high gore is always turned on... A-Bomb it's only one of the most spectacular way to simulate violence.

What makes me think is that me, a quiet guy with a job (well, actually two jobs...), family, dog and cat, usually likes to simulate violence. I'm a little scared by this, because I'm thinking that once all this was for real, somewhere is still real and maybe it will be real again in a future. Well, I don't want that me, or my sons, would be on the receiving side of an A-Bomb. Or on the receiving side of a 767 full of fuel and terrorists. There are many opinions on how to avoid this, but my statement is NO MORE.

Until we post messages it's all OK, we're civil people talking and this is good. The bad comes out when someone decides to stop talking and use real bombs, 'cause this means that somebody made a BIG mistake.

Technical addendum: it's really difficult to simulate an A-Bomb or a mass bombing like Coventry or Dresden, because our beloved simulated bombs do not simulate thermal effects. The most of the damage in those bombings came from fires and thermal storms. Manhattan Project for CFS2 was only a big blast, not a A-Bomb. When we'll have a simulated fluid atmosphere maybe someone could depict those bombings, but until then there wil be only big blasts.

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:24 AM
Lord Dark Helmet: I knew it, I'm surrounded by a55holes.
(WalterMitty is 'Major A55hole')


-Fu5kin commies you want some?We beat you before,we shoulda
-did like we did to the Nazis,instead the poison still
-infects the useful idiots and still causes needless
-suffering.

'we' beat you before? When? On your own? Did you have a war with the Soviet Union that no one else knew about? What about North Korea? (that still isn't technically 'over'). Remember Vietnam? You seem to forget that WWII was being fought long before the US joined in. As for 'want some', I think the Russians would have kicked NATO's *** in a conventional war, especially when so many friendly forces would have been lost to friendly fire :-| Many US citizens think they are invincible which is, to be frank, complete crap.

Be scared of China and North Korea and realise that _if_ (and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen) there ends up being a fight there it is gonna get _really_ bad real quick. In fact, go and read the report, written by a US general, about his thoughts on war with North Korea being the worse possible scenario for the US. (1/2 million artillery shells per hour into South Korea for 17 days and that is just to start). Wake Up.


-Our forefathers left Europe because they couldnt stand
-living there,and Europe has expressed a disdain for
-anything American except when their lives DEPENDED on
-America for the survival of their nation.Blow me!

So you 'rescued' Europe did you? Of course, the US entering the war was nothing at all to do with Perl Harbour was it. Like I said before, WWII was being fought long before the US joined in and it was in the interest of everyone to defeat the Axis forces. 'World War' is exactly that.

-I'm an Anti-Communist.I havent
- forgotten the ColdWar,and I also am aware of the
- damage done to this great country by our adversary.I
- will never submit to those who would think for
- me,and I will CHOOSE what I make of my life.Give me
- LIBERTY or give me death.

What complete and utter jingoistic crap.

-The State is
- secondary,though thanks to the Communist
- infiltration over the last 50 years there has been a
- erosion of the principles of what this country
- stands for.

Ahh, thankyou for educating us. Nothing that is wrong with America is America's fault is it? Huge gun crime (what sort of country has kids getting access to guns?), huge distance between the rich and the poor, murder capital of the world, massive oppression of the indiginous people of the US, imposition of will on other countries (Mexico for example) etc. Perhaps the very reason that there are so many problems is because the population of the US is composed of people from many nations. Oh, nearly forgot your huge national debt, which is about:

$6,598,680,689,897, which equates to about $22,655 per citizen.

-Thats why Bush is so unpopular
-abroad,cause he rejects all this "World govt" B.S.

Bush is unpopular because he and his govermnent are a threat to the entire world. A survey was carried out in which people were asked whom they were most affraid of. The results aren't entirely a shock, something like 80% said they are more affraid of the US than al-Qa'ida. That is simply because people fear that bush is a chimp in a suite with a big box of fireworks. His government is filled with ex-oil company right wing fools who, in my opinion, sincerely beleive that they can impose America's will upon any country they like. What happened to the WMD in Iraq? They _will_ be found of course, more like planted and then found. That war was about money and oil, simple as that.

At the end of the day most goverments are bad news in one form or another. Realise that and you may wake up. Why do you think there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world? It is because of the views of people like you WalterMitty and because of the actions of the 'democratically elected' (LOL) US Goverment. Bush is a war criminal and should be tried as such. Convienient isn't it that the war crimes laws and the geneva convention aren't recognized but are oh so important when US forces are captured in Iraq.

-Thats it.I know what the American
- people are about,and killing and destruction aint

I know that, I have american friends, we always have great 'debates' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Matt.


http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 08:56 AM
Matt do you actually believe what you post? I can't even respond to that statement..it would lower my IQ by 5 points.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/361FGsmall.gif'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:04 AM
What part don't you believe? I thought it was impossible to have negative IQ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 09:29 AM
Sigh.. Back to the Topic People.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:46 AM
Indeed, good call Blue Devil.

What other bombers would you like to see?

I would like to see:

Lancaster, B-17, B-29, B-24, B-25, Wellington, Mosquito (please please !)

Out of those I think the Mosquito would be great, fast, can manouvre, can carry as much as a B-17 and is made of wood !

/m

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:53 AM
WalterMitty wrote:
- Would I be wrong to think that Lieniod considers
- himself an "intellectual"?Hmm Orwell comes to
- mind.Yeah thats right I'm an Anti-Communist.I havent
- forgotten the ColdWar,and I also am aware of the
- damage done to this great country by our adversary.I
- will never submit to those who would think for
- me,and I will CHOOSE what I make of my life.Give me
- LIBERTY or give me death.The State is
- secondary,though thanks to the Communist
- infiltration over the last 50 years there has been a
- erosion of the principles of what this country
- stands for.Thats why Bush is so unpopular
- abroad,cause he rejects all this "World govt"
- B.S.This idea that we're all the same,ah B.S.,every
- country has a different view of the world,and the
- most that can be hoped for is that we have enough in
- common that we wont decide to kill each other,but
- there are those whose views cannot be reconciled,and
- they must be dealt with according to the actions
- that they take.Thats it.I know what the American
- people are about,and killing and destruction aint
- it.
-

Hey Walter, calm down again a bit. As far as I remember the discussion was about mss distructive weapons in a computer game. So why do you scream around calling people communists. Every 2nd topic becomes a fight between people about the US. It's not against you, many people do that lately no matter if they are pro or against US politics and it always ends up in a flaming war and spoils the topic. We were not talking about if it was justified to throw the bomb in 45. The discussion was if people want to see it in the sim. I don't for example, but just because i say i don't like the idea to simulate mass destruction against civilians in a sim it doesn't mean I'm a communist, right? We should stop mixing politics with a sim. If someone opens a discussion about US and European politics in this forum i'd like to discuss it. WE neeeeeeed pilot lounge back!!!! hear that mods???

BTW if i may ask you Walter (please don't take it personally) i have the feeling that many people feel like it is a personal attack against them as soon as soemone in here just mentions that something in the US might be not thaaat nice. And why do so many think we Europeans hate you? The US is a great country but it has some problems too, no one ever said Europe is perfect. We have our faults you have yours but there is no reason to call us communists and compare us to Stalin or Hitler. Please don't do that. Just because someone says your president Bush is not a good one it doesn't mean i say the people in the US are bad. And i know that we don't hate you so why do you hate us? We been allies for a long time now, and there are problems sometimes and misunderstandings between allies just like in every company or family sometimes but were would we be if we wouldn't have those different points of view sometimes? in a totalitarian world where this is not allowed, like it was in Iraq or Afghanistan for example. As i said before: I'd like to talk about our points of view about US and communists and the world and whatever but please don't attack others without any reason. thnx




http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:56 AM
I'd like to have those ones:

Lancaster, B-17,Do17

that would make the game much more interesting.

I can't wait to see how it will look like in FB to attack a formation of B17 with my FW. I'm sure they'll blow me out of the sky in less than a minute lol

http://www.just-pooh.com/images/eten.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:05 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Always enjoy what the bleeding hearts have to say
- about the SBC or the A-bomb.
-
- They convienently forget, and never mention, it was
- their countries the anihilated 6,000,000 trully
- innocents or were reason the for the horror of the
- Rape of Nanking.
-
-
- NuF you really should stop posting after being into
- the sauce.



sad comeback from you, milo. whwn you are not able to get rather simple discussions better stay out.
just because a crime happened people are not allowed to talk about other crimes? the difference is, 99% of the german people know and always say that the holocoust was a crime. although most people were not even born when it happened they feel a certain responsibilaty to deal with themes like that and to help to not make it happen again.
on the other hand some people are not willing to look at crimes in an objective way because it could put blood on the hands of their grandparents or could be >>against<< their country.
your poor statement shows that you always put nationalism before rationalism.

sad to see but there have to be people like this...





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under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:11 PM
Go to a communist website and read what they say about the U.S.,and then compare that with what you hear from some people.World Workers Party for instance.Mattduggan may or may not be a true believer and really I dont care,but he sure does a good job of getting out the same message.And I also know not all Europeans despise the U.S.,and my statements are not directed at them.I basically consider everything he said with the exception of China to be a twisting of the truth mixed with out and out lies.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:15 PM
mattduggan wrote:
- Lord Dark Helmet: I knew it, I'm surrounded by
- a55holes.
- (WalterMitty is 'Major A55hole')



ww2 games always attract a certain kind of people. but some are ok... you get used to the rest...




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under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:28 PM
Walter: I am a "lefty" (or whatever you like to call us) and I have to say that you and matt should be drinking buddies. You both spout dogma with no support whatsoever,and you both disregard the flaws in your own philosophies while jumping on them in the the other guys beliefs. Neither of you has actually managed to make sense in your debate.
On the other hand, I would be more than happy to have a sensible discussion with both of you in a more appropriate place /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Whirlwind Whiner - "New To The Few!"

"So save your prayers for when we're really gonna need 'em.
Throw out your cares and fly...
Wanna go for a ride?

-Billy Corgan

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:31 PM
Just a few words to the Hiroshima / Nagasaki whiners


Dresden

Hamburg

Kobe

Osaka

Tokyo


Conventional munitions, mother nature, a little planning and you suffocate many more than the combined loss of both A-bomb targets ...

cc

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:42 PM
NuF must be off the juice, he wrote more than a single line of text./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Are you one of the 1% NuF?



"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:42 PM
WalterMitty,

You can think what you like, the fact is that everyone has an opinion whether you like it or not, you probably don't like hearing some truths. As for everything I said being out and out lies, are you sure about that?

North Korea, national debt, gun crime, China (which you accepted), 'interesting' government, huge 'have vs. have not' society, corruption - all wrong? My American friends want shot of Bush as soon as possible, surely that says something?.

As for me insinuating that I am a communist, very funny http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The content of my post was accurate as far as I am concerned and before you ask, no, I do not 'despise' the US at all, quite the contrary. I just believe that your politicians and foreign policy has a lot to answer for and is, ultimately, hurting normal US citizens. The same, of course, can be said for many many other governments, mine included.

I had an interesting experience in Egypt only one year ago. I had people asking me, a British citizen, 'Why is Bush doing what he is doing?'. That is a very strange situation to be confronted with. Did that happen for no reason?

Matt.

p.s. What's your drink, we could go on about this for ages? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (wanna Vodka LOL )

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/pirhana.jpg



Message Edited on 06/18/0312:47PM by mattduggan

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:52 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- NuF must be off the juice, he wrote more than a
- single line of text

- Are you one of the 1% NuF?



no, your mother is...

oh, i forgot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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under 30k?

BlitzPig_Rock
06-18-2003, 01:55 PM
England is temperate
Barbados is tropic
this thread is locked
cos its off topic.


crap but whaddya want..

EDIT - by the way, the "delete msg" button does wonders for IATL`ers.



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Message Edited on 06/18/0302:04PM by BlitzPig_Rock