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View Full Version : Have the mods killed or made IL-2 for your squad?



Trinity_Jay
06-04-2010, 06:57 AM
S!

Just a query that I would like to ask all of you that actively take part in a virtual squad.

Since the happy days of 4.08/4.09M, IL-2 has mutated into various forms and mods, some of which conflict and restrict gaming. This is from my experience and I would like to know if this has happened to your squad since the new mods were introduced.

Or has it improved gaming and the community within your virtual squad? Improved it greatly and enhanced it considerably?

Personally, since the latest mods, my squad has seen its IL-2 days seriously restricted, and as a consequence, pilots seperate into various Hyperlobby rooms or simply move game completely to Rise of Flight, for example. Some just wait and wait and wait for Storm of War where we can be one happy family once more...

Anyway, one for a Friday afternoon chat in the office.

Cheers,

Jay

Worf101
06-04-2010, 07:06 AM
Interesting topic. Not wanting to speak "out of turn" I won't discuss what mods has done to Squadron morale, co-hesiveness etc... What I will say is that we, as a squadron, have gone from hosting online co-ops in HL to flying almost exclusively in a dedicated online server which enables us to use certain mods that "rectify" certain problems with Allied craft like the belting of ammmuniton for the .50 cals.

The mod set we were using HSFX was/is not very popular in HL and our co-ops were getting sparse participation. Some hope that 4.10 will be sufficiently detailed as to get the majority of online pilots back on the same basic page. For me personally, I'd say the mods have permanently fractured the online community as many feared it would.

Worf

rfxcasey
06-04-2010, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Worf101:
Interesting topic. Not wanting to speak "out of turn" I won't discuss what mods has done to Squadron morale, co-hesiveness etc... What I will say is that we, as a squadron, have gone from hosting online co-ops in HL to flying almost exclusively in a dedicated online server which enables us to use certain mods that "rectify" certain problems with Allied craft like the belting of ammmuniton for the .50 cals.

The mod set we were using HSFX was/is not very popular in HL and our co-ops were getting sparse participation. Some hope that 4.10 will be sufficiently detailed as to get the majority of online pilots back on the same basic page. For me personally, I'd say the mods have permanently fractured the online community as many feared it would.

Worf

Me personally, I don't play multiplayer anymore unless I am hosting a server for me and my other friend so we can take on some enemies in coop of duke it out one on one.

In general, I stay offline and just have fun with the dynamic campaigns. Getting with a squad is cool but I still prefer coop to deathmatch or even team deathmatch.

Don't get me wrong every once in a while I jump in a server for the fun of it. But I usually just play vanilla and there are getting to be fewer and fewer vanilla servers so if it's too much of a hassle I don't even bother.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Erkki_M
06-04-2010, 08:16 AM
Mods have effected, to the negative direction.

As none of us in my squad have never cared one heck about how believable(as opposite to realistic, as mod graphics are typically not, though in the case of new and/or modified maps) the graphics look, being most interested in historical online campaigns, a good part of the people we used to play have vanished and dogfight servers become more and more rare.

Sadly, ever fewer people are actually interested what all the mods change in their game, why those changes were chose to be made and how they affect the game. All from graphics to flight and damage models, cockpits, maps and down to weapons' ammo beltings. Even, for example, the UP team itself doesnt know what all the mod includes, and how the new or changed-FM aircraft behave.

p-11.cAce
06-04-2010, 08:23 AM
I played with the mods for awhile but am now back to vanilla. It was a fun novelty for a bit - and flying the storch was a BLAST - but it has basically killed the online experience for me, and without that vanilla just seems to run better offline.

JtD
06-04-2010, 08:40 AM
I have about stopped playing online when the last of my favorite servers decided for crt=0. I prefer the vanilla version, and don't like to have all sorts of hacks around. Getting shot at by invisible planes is not my cup of tea either.

rfxcasey
06-04-2010, 08:42 AM
Let me just add this though. I like the idea of an all inclusive conversion mod. To be more specific I like the idea of one mod I can run to turn IL-2 into WWI or the Korean War. That to me is kool and easy. There are just so many little mods to nickle and dime around with I really can't justify spending the time to see what I like and what I don't and then maybe I like the sound mod but just wanna change one of it's sound for something else and so on and so on. It just gets too freakin' tedious. Or maybe I am just getting too old and don't have the time to waste farting around with mods all the time to find what I like before getting tired of it after a while and just ending up going back to vanilla in the first place.

Does that make sense? I think I just crapped myself... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Hey Maybel, be a dear and fetch my depends.

Ba5tard5word
06-04-2010, 10:03 AM
Well I fly with a small squad. It took a little while for everyone to figure out how to install UP, but now that we all have it, it has opened up a lot of new options for co-op missions with new planes and new maps, so we enjoy it.

If you can install it properly then there's no reason to not use it, but the problem is that it's tough to convince a lot of people to change what they are used to and then to go through a fairly involved download and install. UP really freshens up the game and adds a lot of possibilities, but it is definitely more of a resource hog and can probably look intimidating if you are really attached to 4.09.

RedToo
06-04-2010, 10:04 AM
Killed online play.

RedToo.

MOH_SKID.
06-04-2010, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Trinity_Jay:
...
Personally, since the latest mods, my squad has seen its IL-2 days seriously restricted, and as a consequence, pilots seperate into various Hyperlobby rooms or simply move game completely to Rise of Flight, for example. Some just wait and wait and wait for Storm of War where we can be one happy family once more...


This.

Most of us remain "vanilla flyers" I believe; however, it is getting difficult find vanilla servers. A few members have taken the modded path. Some of the MOH squad have gone into Rise Of Flight.

All in all, the whole mod thing has been quite negative.

S~
MOH_SKID

ElAurens
06-04-2010, 10:34 AM
Only about 4 of the Pigs fly anymore. The rest, and our "hangers on", stopped because of mods.

I hope that DT can put together a comprehensive version of the stock game that will make mods unnecessary, especially as the attempt to unify the mod "community" failed so tragically.

Personally I await SoW, so I can dump IL2 and move on from all this egotistical madness that is modding.

p-11.cAce
06-04-2010, 10:49 AM
One word sums up the mod experience for me:

schadenfreude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TheCrux
06-04-2010, 10:51 AM
I think it definitely fractured the online community.

LLv34_Flanker
06-04-2010, 11:01 AM
S!

LLv34 flies IL-2, with or without mods whatsoever so no change there. The fact is that LLv34 is spread over Aces High, IL-2 and even WW2 Online so hard to tell if there is any real change in anything.

Personally..Mods brought me back to IL-2. The stock game just plain sucks. Many mods have corrected some bugs and improved looks in the process. Finally the Pony/Jug drivers have their API belts in the .50cals, Bf109 has a far better cockpit + external appearance, Mig-3 is getting an overhaul etc. Sure there are less good mods as well and the ePeen Ego War between mod groups, but if you really can see past it there are some gems within.

The good thing is that TD has picked some mods to be a part of the official release in a patch. This is the way the modding should go maybe, introduce the mod that fits within the official parameters of the game and voilá..everyone wins!

There is a downside though with the vanilla game. Everything is supposed to run on a system specified in the system specs. This just hinders the development of IL-2, not unifying it IMO. Today the Joe Average has a far more capable laptop even than the original specs for IL-2. Dragging along some ancient setups because of "it is the official thing" has outlived ages ago. Today's midprice hardware screams IL-2 at resolutions we only dreamed back then.

So all in all mods have saved IL-2. Without them we would have a game no-one plays. No new content, no new planes, no patches or maps. Even now as MG does not allow TD to make Do17Z because of SoW, the modders can and for sure will do it and add to the game. They have no restrictions. And for you Mr/Mrs Purist, the choice is yours whether to use the mods or not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

End of rant. Mods are good and the best ones should be evaluated and brought in to the patches we still will get.

csThor
06-04-2010, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:
The good thing is that TD has picked some mods to be a part of the official release in a patch. This is the way the modding should go maybe, introduce the mod that fits within the official parameters of the game and voilá..everyone wins!

If you knew how few "mods" even remotely try to remain within official limits you'd probably get a serious bout of depression, Flanker. Some cockpit repaints need up to 28 times the texture space Caspar needed to make a brilliant Hs 129 cockpit (and his textures need a little more than 7 MB). Nuff said ...

DKoor
06-04-2010, 11:51 AM
I started to wrote "What IL-2? Does it exists anymore online?" in my reply, but have edited it and went for more moderate answer, but...

The day they got widely accepted on IL-2 servers is the beggining of the end for online play. Shortly after that, some of the more notable servers (and more serious ones regarding diff. settings) got almost empty and even their changed policies (they went from banning the mods <-> accepting the mods <-> being neutral; accepting both) got little to no result... people simple haven't played anymore that much. At least the old crowd.
I also left long time ago all that I do now is a bit offline here and there and am waiting for new patch.

BTW some people really foresaw what may and probably will happen or they got a really good hunch (CFS experience etc.) at the beggining of the happy mod time but... well their wisdom speech didn't fell on fertile ground so in a way I really don't care anymore... it's another one of those you asked for it (hilarity) - you received it.

TS_Sancho
06-04-2010, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by csThor:


If you knew how few "mods" even remotely try to remain within official limits you'd probably get a serious bout of depression, Flanker. Some cockpit repaints need up to 28 times the texture space Caspar needed to make a brilliant Hs 129 cockpit (and his textures need a little more than 7 MB). Nuff said ...

There is a P-47 cockpit in the Ultrapack bundle that is a prime example.

It's frustrating because I love the plane and the cockpit is beautiful but not enough to tolerate a slideshow on a contemporary rig.

thefruitbat
06-04-2010, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:


If you knew how few "mods" even remotely try to remain within official limits you'd probably get a serious bout of depression, Flanker. Some cockpit repaints need up to 28 times the texture space Caspar needed to make a brilliant Hs 129 cockpit (and his textures need a little more than 7 MB). Nuff said ...

There is a P-47 cockpit in the Ultrapack bundle that is a prime example.

It's frustrating because I love the plane and the cockpit is beautiful but not enough to tolerate a slideshow on a contemporary rig. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TS_Sancho, i can help you with that if you want, pm me.

Phas3e
06-04-2010, 12:38 PM
Mods have increased my online flying experience 10 fold.

New maps, and map textures, aircraft flyable, objects, default skins, all allow for an immersion level that vanilla can never come close to offering

danjama
06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
I don't see the big deal, with people moaning about mods and stuff. There's a switcher included, so it's not hard to become compatible with the majority of games. I'm happy. There's always somewhere to fly, so what's the problem?

LLv34_Flanker
06-04-2010, 02:40 PM
S!

Thor, I know about the repaints of the cockpits. Some of them are of hefty size and could maybe be redone in smaller size to fit the IL2 world. My system has no problems running it as I know if I want to run more I need more power. Gaming is NEVER cheap http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif SoW will be the same, do not expect full eyecandy on minimum specs..

Basically I ment ZUTI and other things being incorporated. 3D fixes like Anto and JapanCat did etc.

Trinity_Jay
06-04-2010, 05:36 PM
Some truly excellent points here for against and for. So I thank you.

I was thinking of making this in to a magazine article as it has debate and critical grit. If so, are you guys happy with me using some of your quotes and reference you by your nicknames?

Just a suggestion.

Incidentally, I played IL-2 online this evening on 2.01 and it was fun. However, my squad was not online or on comms when Friday evening was the busiest night of all...

Cheers,

Jay
CPS_Bulldog

mortoma
06-04-2010, 09:20 PM
I only appeared sporadically on HL in the first place, being mostly an offline player. But it was nice for a change of pace to be able to go online. Now I never go on HL and it's because of the hassle of the mods. I could never get the 'switcher thing' to work either. But for me it's a mixed blessing, as mods are great for offline play because they overall increase my offline enjoyment, regardless of pretty much ending my online participation!!

One thing that stinks a tiny bit is you can't play mod planes in DGEN campaigns, at least not easily. What you can do is start a career in a similar non-mod plane and before every mission, go into FMB and change it to the mod plane every time, then play the mission in the mod plane. Or you can go into the .mis file and edit it too. A little bit of a pain and more time consuming but it works OK.

X32Wright
06-04-2010, 09:56 PM
The only thing I have to say is before the mods came into the il-2 community we would get on average 400-500 a night (Eastern Standard time) and around 900-1200 on Friday night and weekends.

Today? We can barely get 200-300 a night and around 400 on Fridays and weekends. I remeber the times when a COOP would fill up in seconds and people would complain botu not having enough slots. Today? people would cit on the COOP1 slot for 30min and not even fill half the slots.

Why? Because everyone was on the same version and you do not have to juggle with MOD 'FLAVOR of the month' version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also have seen numerous squad that I know personally on HL that got fractured and divided and broke up due to the mod vs no mod issue. If a squad didnt have a clear mod policy before this whole thing unraveled (right at the time when SOUND mods were the only mod), there are bigger chances of friction within the squads being cerated because of this.

WTE_Galway
06-04-2010, 10:10 PM
I have not flown online either with WTE or without since the mods were released.

That is partly due to a unreliable internet connection and lack of time. My most active time online was back when virtual wars were popular about 4 or 5 years ago.

But the fact that the mods appear to me to have moved online IL2 away from its simulation roots and much more towards being just another "geewhiz look at him exploded I rulez" online shoot-em-up also has had an effect on my decision.

I must admit previous negative experience with user mods in other games including MSFS may have biased me but I really could not be bothered. I will leave playing the modded game to the new online jocks that picked up the game for $10 in the bargain bin and don't remember the old days http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ElAurens
06-04-2010, 10:22 PM
I must take exception Galway.

The one thing the mods have done is provide (a few) good maps and and aircraft that have expanded the ability to simulate more areas of operation for online campaigns. I am currently flying one on a beta New Guinea map that is outstnading and would be totally impossible without mods.

Frankly I don't see that online's "airquake to simulation" ratio has changed much at all. The entire gamut of server types, from "wonder woman" arcade shooters to full difficulty coop simulations and online campaigns is still there.

csThor
06-04-2010, 10:58 PM
Flanker

Quite frankly we @ TD have that that particular argument time andtime again, but continuous repetition doesn't make it right. Exceeding (grossly!) the official limits for texture sizes (to stay with the example I gave) is like trying to bolt on the face of a 20-year old hottie on a 50-year old woman. You really think that will look anything but ridiculous? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And WRT to 3D modifications such as JapanCat's: TD's 3D gurus prefer the "wholistic approach". See the Hs 129 for that.

FourShades
06-04-2010, 11:09 PM
Interesting topic.

My slant is that before the Mods, loads of people flew together because there WAS only one version, and people HAD to put up with it. Really, underneath all that, there was a community with many different styles/wants/needs. Even with stock IL-2, you could see the split happening with DF server communities, coop communities, offline communities.

Since the Mods, some people who had some residual disenchantment with stock IL-2 suddenly had the means to focus on things that interest them more. For them, the mods have been liberating. For others, whose enjoyment revolves around community aspects (massive DFs etc), the mods have been fragmenting.

Online flying is certainly still strong, but it has evolved now. IMHO, modding always introduces a bunch of mods, some rubbish, some great. What we need is a sensible group of people to weed out the rubbish and focus on those mods that add value to the game. The early Mod packages were not great at this, but now TD and the HSFX crew are doing a much better job.

From my personal point of view, coops have always been the most credible IL-2 experience, and I am delighted to take part in regular, large-scale coop campaigns using HSFX and involving (now) hundreds of pilots from all around the world. These have been running for years. You just won't find these campaigns in HL, that's all.

Cheers,
4Shades

Sillius_Sodus
06-04-2010, 11:59 PM
I rarely fly on HL anymore. Not because of mods but rather because of some of the people there, (i.e. the rude, immature, egomaniacs on many of the servers).

LLv34_Flanker
06-05-2010, 01:51 AM
S!

I understand your point Thor. There are the limits you have to fit within when making new content and another is the methods and file sizes modders might use. Hardly meet eachother in most cases. But again I am sure the modders CAN do their cockpits within the limits if they want to.

The other point is that why base new content on minimum specs that are kind of stone age today? I understand this is set by Oleg's team and not much you can do to it, but again the minimum specs COULD be lifted a bit to allow more comlex content to IL-2 as it can be added. Look at HolyGrail & Potenz new effects, they actually have managed to reduce the strain on the system with them without sacrificing looks. The public beta is out next week http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The full overhaul of Hs129 is great and sure makes this plane more appealing. But again the fixes on Bf109-series JapanCat and Anto incorporated were of nature that could have been done ages ago by Oleg's team. As a Bf109 pilot I am more than happy to fly a Bf109, not a Lego block http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Fw190 got rid of the bar in front glass, canopies open on more planes, some with fixed 3D to make it look realistic as well. The list goes on.

This is why I personally see that both TD and mod community could benefit from being in close co-operation to get in new stuff to IL-2 without sacrificing the quality or integrity of the game itself. Luckily there is co-operation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif People just should open their eyes and see the forest from the trees http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gammelpreusse
06-05-2010, 05:15 AM
I can only speak for myself here, but in it's nearly a decade long run IL2 had lost a lot of spice eventually. I hardly bothered flying anymore because, well....there was nothing new to discover. The atmosphere had gone out of the window, only fighting itself remained. And though for some ppl stuff like that suffices, I like sims because of their immersive factors. The mods did spades to improve in this field. IMHO, graphics DO count, not so much for hollywood style effects, but for a believeable environment. Be it sounds, effects, textures, the game has reached a new level.

Again, IMHO a good game is a game that does not make you think about its faults. The mods removed quite a few of these problems, and 6DoF support topped it all.

In regards to comunity fraction...my fav servers, the UKdedicated and Warbirds of prey branches, are still there and highly frequented, so that never posed a problem.

So for me the mods were a wholly positive development, even more so as it appeared that the community was able to settle on a single mod pack for all to fly (UP2).

CUJO_1970
06-05-2010, 05:31 AM
I find it interesting how many little kids just so happen to own a copy of 3D Studio Max, a $3,400+ piece of software.

Yes, I know not all mods require this software or were made using it...but I know many were and I'll just leave it at that.

TheGrunch
06-05-2010, 05:38 AM
Gmax?

csThor
06-05-2010, 05:40 AM
I have heard your arguments quite a few times already, Flanker, but again repetition doesn't make them true. You can no more slap technology of 2010 into a 1990ish engine as you can slap a DB 605 into your car (and expect it to run fine). It's a question of balance here ...

And although I'd also like to see a major overhaul of both the Bf 109 and Fw 190 series I can also see why other projects have received the attention before.

CUJO_1970
06-05-2010, 05:43 AM
The reason I don't fly online anymore is mostly due to two things:

1. Real life responsibilities

2. Online behavior

LLv34_Flanker
06-05-2010, 06:21 AM
S!

Thor, it is about priority and the will to do something. For TD it is easier as you have the tools and data, even more now with the deal with MG I think. You can not say that "we do not know" as you sit on the data http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Maybe TD could focus a bit on bringing oldest stuff to look a tad better? I bet updating a cockpit of Mig-3, for example, would take less time to complete than making a completely new plane from scratch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As of installing a DB605 to a modern car, well, you are right..where to get an engine as they are no more manufactured, didn't the red hordes overrun the factories some 60 years ago? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif JK..but IL-2 gfx engine is still there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Been following the IL-2 since day 1 and there has been a lot of work done to it, but frankly, also a bit too much "Be sure you is wrong" even the evidence was there to prove otherwise. Modding has rectified most of them, maybe not optimal performance after it but done, showing it CAN be done.

I do not bash TD for your work, in the contrary. You bring stuff to IL-2. But sometimes team maybe could stop and think of updating older stuff, fixing some bugs etc. rather than just incorporate new? New stuff wears out after a while but the old stuff bugs you all the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyways..Modding is good, it adds to the IL-2 experience along with the official patches from TD. Thor, no offense towards you or TD. Maybe just a bit too tired sim pilot at the moment and working with real aircraft/armament does not easen the pain http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Knowledge just adds to it, hehe! Have a nice weekend Thor and other TD members.

JG53_Valantine
06-05-2010, 06:46 AM
Asa a group II./JG53 currently flies with the UP2.0M mod with an additional JG53 mod apck inserted which compromises various 109 fixes by Anto, graphics scaling options for members with different system specs, maps and aircraft. All together it is a great pack and has only ever had one issue: a conflict between a mod in UP2M and the JG53 pack causes the ZUTI MDS to not work correctly.

For a long time we had great compatibility with online HL servers so members only needed one version of the game, when up2.0n came out we never bothered upgrading as it offered very little to us as a group: some members chose to do a secondary install with this for HL play, others just had to search around for a 2.0m server instead.

Now that UP2.01 is out we have found that there are very very few servers running compatible mods to ourselves and whilst this doesn;t affect our group operations as a co-op squadron it does make playing smaller public games on HL an issue.

At the moment we are discussing the options of upgrading to 2.01m OR waiting for 4.10 and the updated ultrapack: but they could be months away yet. So the big issue we are having with it right now is deciding: do we stay behind on the mod front so that it is easier for our membership to stay "together" for JG53 missions or do we upgrade and go through a week / 2 week downtime whilst people get their mods in order once again?

In general though since the mods came out our group has not really changed numbers wise, for a very long time we have had around 90 - 100 on books with an active contingent of about 40 and additional 10-15 sporadically active. Of course all recruits to the group have a very dautning task of getting mods up and running now , even with help from our tech officer and knowledgeable members, whith was never an issue before so there is quite a high drop out rate for the first few weeks of joining: but those that stay tend to be the type of pilot who fits in wit hthe teamwork style of the group rather than someone wishing to join, jump in and become an instant ace flying about like some sort of Luftwaffe Rambo.

Personal oppion is that the mods add far more benefits to IL2 than the trouble they can cause: so I for one am very happy with mods
V

csThor
06-05-2010, 09:01 AM
Flanker - I think we agree to disagree. I have no use for modding and will continue to say so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
06-05-2010, 09:05 AM
The ironic thing to e is that what most expected 3 years ago when this all jumped off did not happen. WEe never did see the wave of UFO like aircraft with artillery like weapons.. and while many of the mods do indeed contribute greatly to the fracturing of the community.. many do not. The maps for the most part are very well done.. I don't use any of the cockpit repaints.

I also think that one of the reasons why the mod community has fractured is because some of the mod makers reneged on their offer to cooperate in a unified mod pack and modified another mod sites AC without sanction because they felt the FMs were wrong. However once 4.10 comes out we may just go back to stock depending on whether or not certain issues are resolved.

MD_Titus
06-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Phas3e:
Mods have increased my online flying experience 10 fold.

New maps, and map textures, aircraft flyable, objects, default skins, all allow for an immersion level that vanilla can never come close to offering
^this.
plus the moving dogfight thing, which is going to become official with 4.10 i gather, has improved the online aspect to a great degree. we do get hiccups where new stuff comes out, but messing about in a halifax or the BoB maps that i've played has been something fun and fresh.

on the other hand it has fractured to community to a degree, and there are issues when joining different servers than usual, where you have to mess about getting the correct mods for that server enabled. also there have been an increase in... odd things... that are seen, but as i didn't fly online before the mods i've not got a comparison. in three years i'd say maybe 2-3 occasions i've seen something (someone) that made me go "wth?!". .

Rebel_Yell_21
06-05-2010, 12:33 PM
Its an old game, with a lot of problems. Who's to say that online numbers wouldn't be well down by now anyway, as I, and everyone I ever flew with, got tired of Il-2 some time ago, great as it has been (arugably the best ever).

Not saying mods aren't responsible for a lot, but just saying it wasn't going to stay that way forever.

Its Rise of Flight now, and trying not to think about Storm of Duke Nukem Forever,....err War, until it comes out.

ytareh
06-05-2010, 01:42 PM
As this argumnet seems to be quite strongly leaning anti mod I thought Id throw in my 2c...I reckon the game numbers were beginning to slide quite a bit just before the mods came along anyway or certainly as they were in their infancy.In particular the 'Full Real/Switch community was waning badly and the only green shoots seemed to be in the external views scene.
YES mods can be an utter pain to download and install and its STILL too complicated for many users .But Ive no doubt that they ahve improved the game dramaticaly.Im 100% behind them .And Ive still to see any online cheating ...Heck the Spitfire disappearing as it turns to come around and face you before your eyes in the stock game is the closest to 'cheating' Ive ever seen apart from maybe the old printScreen thing...
For offliners Id say the mods are ESSENTIAL-They dragged me back offline quite a bit -and many more Im sure...For onliners they are great too and those that use them tend to be better than average all round IL2-ers I would suggest ...Now if only all the mods could be incorporated into an official simple patch...

Art-J
06-05-2010, 02:28 PM
^ What Ytareh said.

All this whining "Baaah! There were more guys on the servers before mod era!" is partially rubbish, I'd say. While the decerease in numbers seems to be noticeable, can anyone of you say it wouldn't have happened had the mods not been "invented"? You can't!

Let's face it - the sim is old and some of us just got fed up with it (at least with the "stock" content). I never bothered about additional planes, but sounds- and mapmods actually revived my interest in the series again and I'm sure I'm not alone here.

In my opinion, the scale of discussed decrease was more a result of aforementioned failed attempt to create unified pack, rather than "invention" of the modding itself.

Cheers - Art

LLv34_Flanker
06-05-2010, 02:33 PM
S!

Well put Thor, but we do it in a friendly manner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks for your response, always appreciated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I use mods and will continue do so, but only a few and selected ones. Those that improve my gaming experience, not all that are out there. I think most popular I use are the C6_Claymore's FW190 cockpit repaints, Anto's Bf109 pack with JapanCat's 3D fixes, Zorin's ordnance etc. Small things that add a lot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

IL-2 was dying slowly some years ago. There is a certain point when people grow tired to certain things in life, real life changes affect gaming etc. Numbers dropped. TD's patches and modding have brought up the numbers a bit, for a bit. When novelty wears off the same old shines through.

So basically mods will prolong life of IL-2, be it online or offline. Storm Of War will show how fast or slowly IL-2 will fade like did many other great games like EAW etc. A handfull plays them anymore. Progress, in good and bad. But the memories will always remain and the good old blue vs red debate will rage on with SoW..some things never change http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KG26_Alpha
06-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Re MODS:

At squad level most will install and use them to suit their needs.

Although the whole reason IL2 was appealing to me in the first place was the fact everyone flew the same version and the SFS files were protected.

For myself the Mediterranean & North Africa maps alone are worth installing UltraPack 2.01

This theatre should have been officially done. but the vote went to PF.

And Ecran Wide which comes with UP 2.01.
Which greatly improves the GUI and make the old one seem huge and clunky, also it puts the Map. Speed bar. and green connection bars to the extreme edges of your screen in widescreen mode.


Ecran Wide screenshot showing GUI full screen with normal size text. Also they have corrected Ready Room GUI sizing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/alpha1/2212200922-34-28.jpg

danjama
06-05-2010, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
The only thing I have to say is before the mods came into the il-2 community we would get on average 400-500 a night (Eastern Standard time) and around 900-1200 on Friday night and weekends.

Today? We can barely get 200-300 a night and around 400 on Fridays and weekends. I remeber the times when a COOP would fill up in seconds and people would complain botu not having enough slots. Today? people would cit on the COOP1 slot for 30min and not even fill half the slots.

Why? Because everyone was on the same version and you do not have to juggle with MOD 'FLAVOR of the month' version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also have seen numerous squad that I know personally on HL that got fractured and divided and broke up due to the mod vs no mod issue. If a squad didnt have a clear mod policy before this whole thing unraveled (right at the time when SOUND mods were the only mod), there are bigger chances of friction within the squads being cerated because of this.

Well, i think that can be blamed more on the passing of time.

mortoma
06-06-2010, 08:29 AM
To add to my earlier post on this, I also think online behavior is a factor. I was turned off ( about 4 months ago ) when I had someone act a bit childishly in a coop mission. I was in a later 109 and most of my flight were AI, only a few of the 109s were us human pilots. We went against an equal number of Spits and most of them were human. I think it was six against six and only two in the 109s were human, me and someone else.

I happened to get a nice advantage in the vertical and most of the guys in Spits ended up down near the ground and slow. I had shot up half of them and trying to get my forth kill I had ended up down low too. I was trying to get a shot head on at that last Spit and the guy collided with me on purpose and had some snarky comment to go along with it. He could not believe one guy in a 109 could shoot up so many Spits I guess. It was clearly the Spit fliers fault because they are the ones that lost their energy and got down there floundering. But I was a bit miffed about the whole thing!! Part of the problem is Spit fliers automatically assume they will have an advantage against 109s. Not if they fly that way they won't...........

Viikate_
06-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:

The other point is that why base new content on minimum specs that are kind of stone age today? I understand this is set by Oleg's team and not much you can do to it, but again the minimum specs COULD be lifted a bit to allow more comlex content to IL-2 as it can be added.


We can push the limits, but very gently and we have done that in few places. Problems arise when the engine is pushed too much. It can get unstable and produce strange effects after some playing time.


Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:

But sometimes team maybe could stop and think of updating older stuff, fixing some bugs etc. rather than just incorporate new?


I believe you haven't seen our bug fix list. It's probably as long as the new feature list if not longer.

DrHerb
06-06-2010, 10:37 AM
In my squad, we're using the mods to their full potential. There is a learning curve on alot of things, but the guys who build the missions do an incredible job considering there are many things to learn still.

Personally, I haven't been flying much due to real life issues.

LLv34_Flanker
06-06-2010, 10:38 AM
S!

Kiitos vastauksesta Viikate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Would be nice to see the list some day, in release notes maybe when patch is out?

TheGrunch
06-06-2010, 10:43 AM
Have you guys thought of putting up a proper public bug tracker, Viikate? It would probably save you time trawling through forum sticky threads.

thefruitbat
06-06-2010, 05:35 PM
To the original question, about at squad level,

I've just finished a nights playing with my squad, which has been awesome, which without mods none of which would of happened.

We've just been playing a moving dogfight server battle of britain scenario, where we were all flying red against the masssed german hordes!!

in one of the bits of tonight, we all took of and were patrolling south of southhampton and portsmouth waiting for the incoming raid, and fininally spotted 40+bombers plus escorts inbound. I was flying a hurrican bob fm, and had i CSP damaged plus elevator early doors, managed to make it back to the isle of white and bailed. Took of again quickly and managed to climb up and trail the retreating bombers over the channel as the rest of my squad landed and rearmed. followed the remaining bombers (21 by my count)across the channel (shooting down 2) calling in the location, as the rest rearmed and took off again, only to be bounced by 6 109's over LeHarve all on my lonesome. Desperately evaded as some of my squad came racing to help, which was a great sight when they turned up, finally managing to extract with no ammo and very low on fuel, with me and another of my squad heading home across the channel, with just one stubborn 109 still with us, with us both out of ammo. We managed to drag him back to another member racing south and finally got back, all in all about a 40 min flight for me, with 2 109's in the bag as well on top of the bombers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This was just one flight in a evenings flying of about 4 hours, all of which was awesome.

The squad i belong to uses UP as its base at the moment, and yes, without doubt it is more complicated than il2 used to be, but we help each other out, and make sure that we get each other up and flying, and nights like tonight, make the effort seem insignificant beyond doubt.

So at squad level, i think you get what you put into it, and we all love the game.

I personally think that its the dogfight servers, not the squads that mods have effected most.

And Dino (the mission builder) i shall certainly be buying you a pint at Duxford http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

fruitbat

FlatSpinMan
06-06-2010, 08:12 PM
That sounds great fun, FB.

Jumoschwanz
06-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Trinity_Jay:
Since the happy days of 4.08/4.09M, IL-2 has mutated into various forms and mods, some of which conflict and restrict gaming.
Jay

This did not happen to those who were smart enough to see it coming and simply ignore unofficial hacks(mods) for IL2....

Rjel
06-06-2010, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
This did not happen to those who were smart enough to see it coming and simply ignore unofficial hacks(mods) for IL2....

Like clockwork.

thefruitbat
06-07-2010, 04:46 AM
yup, someone's stuck in a time warp somewhere about 2008 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

LLv34_Flanker
06-07-2010, 05:30 AM
S!

Jumo & Rjel made their choice and full respect on that, especially when not preaching about how much better gamers they are when being pure 4.09m users. But a mod is nothing more than a piece of work integrated to IL-2 by players, not 1C or TD. If the mod had been sent to 1C/TD and added that way, no-one would complain. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TD could/can/is do/doing new content, but for them it is for free. An enthusiastic modder uses his/hers own freetime to add something in what we all like, IL-2. TD does the same on their own time as well but with support/tools from Oleg & Team + have information of inner works of IL-2.

Basically the suspicion and hatred against mods is because how they were made possible: by violating EULA and cracking a piece of code. Because of this every mod is, of course, a hack/cheat/illegal piece of work thus should be banned and perish. Right?

In short, stop being a hypocrite or a narrow minded person and see the larger picture. Mods that are certified to fit within certain IL-2 standards can be evaluated and accepted by TD thus ultimately added to an official patch. This way we all win and not even the Peter Purist can whine about it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This because TD is open to co-operation with community, they have never denied this channel of utilizing the creative power found.

End of rant..Mods are here to stay. Like it or not. Everyone plays the game their way, no-one is forced to change it. Simple http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

STENKA_69.GIAP
06-07-2010, 05:57 AM
My personal opinion is that there was only one Mod which had a positive effect on squad flying. This was unlocking the 32 player limit to co-ops. This allowed our squad to grow because we could field more than 16 pilots in an online war. The scale and complexity of online wargaming has been dramaticaly increased.

For that point alone I can forgive the problems of getting everyone on the same version, the reliability problems and the new performance problems.

However, pandora's box is now open so we all have to get on with it.

The squad and the SEOW community have standardised on using the HSFX version and we are enjoying flourishing competitive IL2 wargaming with large numbers of human opponents.

Enjoy!

Rjel
06-07-2010, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:
Jumo & Rjel made their choice and full respect on that...

I think you missed my point. Maybe I really can subtle sometimes. For the record I support the mods, but like you I don't care how anyone else plays the game. Maybe I'm just not as smart as some others, but I've had great fun with them.

Don_X
06-07-2010, 06:52 PM
And not one mention of the benefits to film makers. . .

Whether in squad or Hyperlobby one can always switch versions quite easily.

I believe it's also the case that the existence of mods has generated new sales for IL2.

jermin122
06-07-2010, 08:50 PM
MODs are definately killing the IL2 community

The fact is that nowadays every server without CRT=2 check is full of cheaters. P51 can turn like a zero and never blacks out or break their wings when doing tight turn under 800+ km/h. 3-4 hits with .50 will cut an A9's wing off. Fly yourselve some sorties there and I'm sure you'll be amazed.

I was shocked to find out that some server admins kept their server MOD friendly only to help themselves cheat.

IMO, the best way to prevent this from happening is to lock the IL2 from being moddable in the next patch. I'd rather a fair gaming enviorment other than those eye candies.

AndyJWest
06-07-2010, 09:14 PM
Ok, Jermin, you've made your allegations. Now provide some evidence.

I've seen a few 'odd' things online, but if it was that prevalent, why would anyone bother to participate at all? Perhaps you should chose your server more wisely.

I'm not sure how you could 'lock' IL-2 anyway, without starting again from scratch.

TheGrunch
06-07-2010, 09:25 PM
They could just change the method of encryption of the FM data again. That would be pretty easy, and since the chap who initially cracked the format hasn't been active for ages, I doubt it would be cracked again.
I doubt the class file dumper and mod wrapper could be circumvented quite as easily, but no doubt it would be possible. Either way, just the first measure would prevent FMs being tampered with which would go a long way towards preventing cheating.

AndyJWest
06-07-2010, 09:37 PM
An interesting idea, Grunch. I don't know enough about the details of this to be sure, but it sounds like it would work. It would make all the 'new slot' FMs unusable though, wouldn't it? I can imagine that would cause a bit of a stink...

TheGrunch
06-07-2010, 09:44 PM
It would cause epic lulz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
At the end of the day players who wanted to continue using mods could just stop updating their game with DT content.
At the very most, DT could produce an unlocked version that was not compatible with the locked version for online play.
Since the changes required would probably be a one-time alteration that would be untouched by subsequent changes DT are likely to make, the process of keeping this alternate version updated would pretty much be copy-pasting, so that might even be a reasonable suggestion.
I doubt I'd bother with the second part if I was a DT member, though.

WTE_Galway
06-07-2010, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
They could just change the method of encryption of the FM data again. That would be pretty easy, and since the chap who initially cracked the format hasn't been active for ages, I doubt it would be cracked again.
I doubt the class file dumper and mod wrapper could be circumvented quite as easily, but no doubt it would be possible. Either way, just the first measure would prevent FMs being tampered with which would go a long way towards preventing cheating.

Seriously doubt the people that quit online play once the game was cracked will ever come back online at this late stage. Clear case of shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted.

TheGrunch
06-07-2010, 10:13 PM
I agree, just pointing out that it's possible if enough players of a paranoid persuasion petition DT to have a look at it.

Mmmmm, alliterative.

ElAurens
06-08-2010, 05:40 AM
The big issue on "mod friendly servers" is that if you have HSFX and another guy has UP, the FMs for many of the same aircraft are quite different.

In essence, if you fly UP, you will be better off in a Luftwaffe plane.

Hence my swinging back to my original negative stance on mods. Too much personal bias in the modder camps. Too much chest thumping. Not nearly enough attention to historical detail.

Erkki_M
06-08-2010, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The big issue on "mod friendly servers" is that if you have HSFX and another guy has UP, the FMs for many of the same aircraft are quite different.

In essence, if you fly UP, you will be better off in a Luftwaffe plane.

Hence my swinging back to my original negative stance on mods. Too much personal bias in the modder camps. Too much chest thumping. Not nearly enough attention to historical detail.

Yep, nowadays at least some servers force on a certain mod pack(Zuti CRT), but most dont. Not one time have I seen anyone, when publishing a new fancy plane, give any info on performance or flight modelling, or any data by which it was modelled.

Manu-6S
06-08-2010, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
I also have seen numerous squad that I know personally on HL that got fractured and divided and broke up due to the mod vs no mod issue. If a squad didnt have a clear mod policy before this whole thing unraveled (right at the time when SOUND mods were the only mod), there are bigger chances of friction within the squads being cerated because of this.

Probably the 10% of my squad left the game because of mods, another 20% only because they have no time or are tired of IL2 (like me).

The rest of the squad is fully active on online airwars.

We modded the game to have a realistic ground radar, a realistic damage model for ships, and they are working for a detailed damage for factories/bridge.

What about flying in 80 pilots over the channel (BOB campaign)?

And there are these internal mods too:
http://www.diavolirossi.net/kerberos/ftv1.jpg


I think there are 3 classes of il2 virtual pilot:
1) the ones sticked to offline
2) the ones who fly in dogfight/coop servers
3) the ones who enjoy a online campaign with many other squadrons

Only the 2nd class really suffered for the mods; and I think many here in Ubi are pilots of this kind.

PS: the 3th class is divided in 2 parties too...

LLv34_Flanker
06-08-2010, 08:51 AM
S!

It would cost moolah and time to create a code to lock IL-2 up from modding. And that is not very feasible, to invest in a product that is reaching the end of it's life after the patches planned and release of SoW. And how would it affect those who bought the IL-2 as used game then, if the code was made to check this as well? Just waste of breath to scream for locking IL-2. Like someone said, closing the barn doors after the horse has run away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Would they lock IL-2 = I would quit playing it. The stock offers very little compared to the modded one. With mods I have new effects, cockpit repaints, 3D model fixes, new ordnance etc. With stock..well..stock that has been the same for ages and offers nothing new. DT for sure adds new stuff and fixes things, but is that enough for people who have already got used to mods?

To Erkki..Every stock plane in game is comparable in IL2Compare, against both HSFX and UP planes. You can see the difference there. And you have flown long enough to know that most squads use TS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Others complaining about the UP favoring German planes..that is just bullcrap and heaps of it. When taking a closer look you see that BOTH sides were checked and as the task of going thru all planes is humongous, it will take time to get them all in line with eachother.

People now complain when their beloved plane, be it red or blue, is changed. How about the fixes in the FM that takes away the ridiculously high maximum AoA values on some planes that caused them to turn and climb far above historical values? Flap drag adjustments, no more carefree flappy dogfighting when the flaps need to be used to their intended function, produce more lift in take-off/landing. Engine data bugs, that made some engines having wrong power curves or not even a properly functioning engine management? Or errors in plane weights and other things? Is this not what we want, more accuracy instead of AirQuake we are used to over the years?

I can still beat the **** out of a Bf109 in a Spitfire. Spit just is not that carefree anymore as it actually stalls and has vices?! Blasphemy scream others, others just adjust and are as deadly in the Spitfire as before http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Bf109 for example got more gentle stall as it had in real life, now is gone the fish flipflop all over the sky. But again the plane still is slowish, medicore climber and does not turn that well in high speed. It just feels better.

As of cheating: Proof or STFU. Plain and simple. If you scream cheat every time you are shot down in your All Mighty Hero plane maybe you did something wrong or got caught by the oldest cheats of all: teamwork. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've seen very few cases of cheating or attempts to do it. And the cheats were there way before mods were even a remote thought.

I've seen a lot of bad connections and high pings, computers choking when run on too high settings vs the actual horsepower under the hood causing hickups etc. Those who really want to cheat will do so no matter what, but most of the players enjoy the game as it is. Those who do this are the pilots who have been around for years, that have estabilished their reputation over time as being good sports and mighty opponents, regardless of side.

We have two options: fly pure 4.09m(soon 4.10 of course) OR the modded game. Choice is yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

willyvic
06-08-2010, 09:21 AM
Our squad fractured over the Mod issue back when it became "acceptable" to the majority of the IL2 community. Some went their own way, some joined other squads that utilized the mods, and some of us kept on trucking with the vanilla install. We, the vanilla fliers, felt no ill will towards those that went the mod route, nor they us. It was all personal choice.

Those of us that kept the vanilla install flew less and less on HL due to the diminishing number of vanilla servers. That led to overall reduction of any flying and a general lack of interest in the game. This lasted for years.

Just recently we have "tossed in the towel" and have started using the HSFX mod in an online campaign. The campaign is managed well and I feel confident that the playing field is level. The fun factor is back.

My renewed interest in the game is directly linked to this modded campaign. I have been reunited with many old friends and acquaintances, some of which I have not flown with in years.

So yes, the mods fractured our squad. But in the end it has brought us back to the virtual skies with a common goal...to recapture the fun of flying with people who share the same passsion for this game as us.

ElAurens
06-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Well said WillyVic.

The campaign is the only flying I do anymore, and only because of the quality of the people involved. The mods have no bearing on it. If the campaign went to a stock install, I'd still be flying it because of the people.

S!

ILikePortillos
06-08-2010, 11:30 AM
I've always been of the opinion that mods set out to enhance gameplay, which they often do. However, since they are developed by individuals who are not the programmers of the initial game, they're often inefficient in their delivery, which tends to bog down the game in greater resource requirements.

That said, I enjoy what the mods offer, but prefer waiting for patches, which are usually more streamlined. I've gone from modded version to unmodded, and it's always refreshing when the game runs smoothly without fail. I have to admit, the stock version is still very impressive, and plenty immersive.

In summary, I prefer unmodded to modded.

Urufu_Shinjiro
06-08-2010, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by jermin122:
MODs are definately killing the IL2 community

The fact is that nowadays every server without CRT=2 check is full of cheaters. P51 can turn like a zero and never blacks out or break their wings when doing tight turn under 800+ km/h. 3-4 hits with .50 will cut an A9's wing off. Fly yourselve some sorties there and I'm sure you'll be amazed.

I was shocked to find out that some server admins kept their server MOD friendly only to help themselves cheat.

IMO, the best way to prevent this from happening is to lock the IL2 from being moddable in the next patch. I'd rather a fair gaming enviorment other than those eye candies.

This thread has been conducted very well until this point. The rules on mod discussion clearly state no accusations of cheating without proof. Either produce proof of cheating or, as another member put it in more abrupt, though no less accurate terms, refrain from posting.

Don_X
06-08-2010, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
They could just change the method of encryption of the FM data again. That would be pretty easy, and since the chap who initially cracked the format hasn't been active for ages, I doubt it would be cracked again.
I doubt the class file dumper and mod wrapper could be circumvented quite as easily, but no doubt it would be possible. Either way, just the first measure would prevent FMs being tampered with which would go a long way towards preventing cheating.

I think people that want to cheat online just go play W.o.W or similar!

I give the fight sim community a little more credit than that. ( even if they are sometimes paranoid about it)

Rjel
06-08-2010, 04:54 PM
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that where some see a large drop off in numbers of online players, might simply be something that has little to do with the mods or even IL2 itself. We all know the economy has affected every aspect of life over the last couple of years for nearly everyone. It isn't hard to imagine at least some of those who have disappeared from IL2 online have been victims of difficult times.

WTE_Galway
06-08-2010, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Don_X:

I think people that want to cheat online just go play W.o.W or similar!

I give the fight sim community a little more credit than that. ( even if they are sometimes paranoid about it)

lol .. god no http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One of my stepdaughters teenage male friends is one of those new species of younger guys who calls himself a "gamer". Basically he intends to stay unemployed and play online XBox and PC games http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

His first reaction on seeing IL2 was "wow, can you play online and where do you get the cheats and hacks" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Basically they believe that innate skill doesn't count for much as that is just luck and acquired skill from lots of practice doesn't count either as anyone can do that.

What really counts is being a 1337 hacker that can find the best cheats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TheGrunch
06-08-2010, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Don_X:
I give the fight sim community a little more credit than that. ( even if they are sometimes paranoid about it)
Yeah, so do I. You'll find a large amount of people on this forum and on HL that ARE extremely paranoid about cheating, though, usually based upon little to no evidence other than what they believe an aircraft should be able to do from their viewpoint despite the fallibility of their internet connections and the difficulties of judging speeds and trajectories on a monitor.

Although you have that type of gamer, Galway, they're usually the type of person that is too unmotivated to go through the long, involved process of hacking or modding a game that wasn't intended to be treated so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Worf101
06-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Rjel:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that where some see a large drop off in numbers of online players, might simply be something that has little to do with the mods or even IL2 itself. We all know the economy has affected every aspect of life over the last couple of years for nearly everyone. It isn't hard to imagine at least some of those who have disappeared from IL2 online have been victims of difficult times.
You might be onto something here. High Speed Cable Packages vs. Food on the Table. Not much of a choice there. Free offline vs. paying for bandwidth online is a tough choice but you're right some folks might be having to make that choice right now. Good looking out.

Worf

megalopsuche
06-09-2010, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:
Others complaining about the UP favoring German planes..that is just bullcrap and heaps of it.

You're right. Cherrypicking the damage numbers for the new P-51D versus Fw 190 A series, and changing it from the stock model, is not evidence of bias.

Mr_Zooly
06-09-2010, 08:51 AM
The 190s are tough little planes but the advent of the new/improved loadouts for the 50 cals have made it a little more balanced imo.

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 08:52 AM
In my experience the UP mod .50s do LESS structural damage, if anything. Perhaps not the AAA ones, but the UP ones do. They just actually have a chance to set things on fire occasionally now.
Not a good thing that there are 3 different versions of them between stock, AAA and UP, though.

LLv34_Flanker
06-09-2010, 09:23 AM
S!

I think UP reverted back to stock values on both guns and DM's to avoid conflicts. There will be a Weapons Pack released later on with checked belt compositions, ammo values etc. for both Allied and Axis guns, based on manuals and other verified data. It will be a JSGME item so you can use it or the current values that should be stock.

rfxcasey
06-09-2010, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The big issue on "mod friendly servers" is that if you have HSFX and another guy has UP, the FMs for many of the same aircraft are quite different.

In essence, if you fly UP, you will be better off in a Luftwaffe plane.

Hence my swinging back to my original negative stance on mods. Too much personal bias in the modder camps. Too much chest thumping. Not nearly enough attention to historical detail.

I have to agree with this somewhat. When it comes to something as historical and detailed as IL-2 you are always going to have modders changing little things just out of personal bias without thinking about the community as a whole or the historical accuracy. Like giving a little advantage to a plane they fancy and whatnot.

I am sure most of us can however point out a few things that don't seem quite right or we would like to see modeled more accurately. The best thing to do would be to make your pleas to the original developers and hope they include those changes in the next revision.

Of course though, then if they don't have the time or just don't want to pander to the cries of annoying scrubs, well.........THEN MOD THE HELL OUT OF IT. POWER TO THE PEEPOLES!!! MUHAHAHAHHA!!!!

thefruitbat
06-09-2010, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Flanker:
Others complaining about the UP favoring German planes..that is just bullcrap and heaps of it.

You're right. Cherrypicking the damage numbers for the new P-51D versus Fw 190 A series, and changing it from the stock model, is not evidence of bias. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your so out of date with your misinformation, well done for your ability to keep spreading untruths.

yes, that was the case with up2.0, but not for 2.0m, 2.0n, and now 2.01, so your only 4 versions out of date.

keep believing what you want, but i find it a joke.

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 11:18 AM
Incidentally, it was also a bug, as I remember. It was simply because HSFX changed a lot of things and since HSFX are the ones who can compress all of this stuff to .sfs, UP were using the same files.

ElAurens
06-09-2010, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
UP were using the same files.

Some would call it something else entirely.


The word theft comes to mind.

willyvic
06-09-2010, 03:59 PM
A reminder all...discussion of FM/DM particulars is not allowed on this site. Let's keep the thread on track.

Thanks in advance,
WV

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The word theft comes to mind.
That's a very strong word, are you prepared to back that up? As far as I'm aware, the UP team were given permission by the HSFX team to use their .SFS files in advance.

Skunk_438RCAF
06-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Worf101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rjel:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that where some see a large drop off in numbers of online players, might simply be something that has little to do with the mods or even IL2 itself. We all know the economy has affected every aspect of life over the last couple of years for nearly everyone. It isn't hard to imagine at least some of those who have disappeared from IL2 online have been victims of difficult times.
You might be onto something here. High Speed Cable Packages vs. Food on the Table. Not much of a choice there. Free offline vs. paying for bandwidth online is a tough choice but you're right some folks might be having to make that choice right now. Good looking out.

Worf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, we had to cut cable TV.

Personally, I think its more a matter of people just moving on to other things. The drop in numbers may have more to do with peoples lives getting in the way than anything else. In my case, I now have 2 kids to take care of, and while I do get free time after they go to bed, I have hardly enough to get the whole shebang up and ready to get online and play. Even with 2 kids my wife and I need some time together so that we dont go completely insane. I cant help but think that my situation is not a unique one and many others must be experiencing something similar.

Hard times + life = no time for games.

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 04:42 PM
A lot of people seem to have moved on to RoF as well.

thefruitbat
06-09-2010, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
The word theft comes to mind.
That's a very strong word, are you prepared to back that up? As far as I'm aware, the UP team were given permission by the HSFX team to use their .SFS files in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

they were, charlie chap and hades have worked together on many things, In this instance, El doesn't know what hes talking about, but he's got a dislike for ultrapack, so whatever.

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 05:15 PM
Funny, considering that as far as FM/DM is concerned, UP are closest to stock. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

thefruitbat
06-09-2010, 05:19 PM
even funnier if you know that hsfx have changed some stock weapons, and UP have changed them back.

don't believe me, well time how long it takes to fire out all of the ammo in a stock tempest in hsfx vs stock, you'll find that in hsfx it delpetes more quickly as they've changed the rate of fire, i could go on, but whats the point, lol

and lets not forget the laughable fw190 a3 in hsfx, modeled on a5 data http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TheGrunch
06-09-2010, 05:40 PM
I think that if the production of new FMs MUST continue there should be an ENTIRELY separate forum dedicated to testing them and discussing their veracity the way ACE-OF-ACES did over at AAA. That way, no one can use their admin powers to go ban- and lock-happy as soon as someone says something they don't like about their FMs, as has happened on both AAA and UP now during (admittedly heated) discussions over the merits of their respective FMs for identical aircraft.

TX-Gunslinger
06-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
I think that if the production of new FMs MUST continue there should be an ENTIRELY separate forum dedicated to testing them and discussing their veracity the way ACE-OF-ACES did over at AAA. That way, no one can use their admin powers to go ban- and lock-happy as soon as someone says something they don't like about their FMs, as has happened on both AAA and UP now during (admittedly heated) discussions over the merits of their respective FMs for identical aircraft.

I'd go further than that. If it were possible to create a group/committee to test/publish results/approve FM's, perception would probably be different.

But I don't think that it is possible to field such a "FM committee", or it would have already happened by now.

When I started flying Il2 and reading these forums, in 2002 - I was 43, now almost 52. The life stuff has a lot to do with things, plus the economy (or worries thereof).

Economic situation, compounded by access cost, hardware, etc... would seem to have impacted some.

Most guys I know, or have known that particpated for significant periods in Il2 were late 20's to late 40's - with a few outliers. How old are those dudes now? Children to grandchildren....

There's other sims too, even propeller sims. I've spent the last year beta testing and flying ROF. I just now started to fly a few sorties with the UP mod. I noticed for the first time that UP had a "Il2 Compare" application which I found to be extremely useful. The lack of numerical comparisons for slot aircraft, made me very skeptical of using of them at the time.

I'm really enjoying the UP mod pack online in Spits and Ghost Skies, so far. I know that quite a few of TX and TUSA pilots are at least occasionally flying various versions of Il2. When we get together, from time to time - we fly a common, agreed upon configuration.

Anway, good to be back - and no, I don't think the mods did it, not in my squadron, or any of the squadrons I know well. Nobody I ever flew with on a team for any period of time, would have put a piece of software above the others on the team. It's a configuration, not a way of life.

I really think that (as already pointed out in this thread) that many folks who are not flying now, are not participating due to other interests or life situations.

S!

Gunny

BluesmanSF
06-10-2010, 01:02 AM
For the original topic. No, mods have not killed IL2. Sure, there was some frustrations epsecially back in the AAA UI-days when it was more difficult for everyone to be on the same page. For now, the only thing you need to get the most out of IL2 is the UP, along with it's switcher it is extremely user-friendly and it takes about 15 seconds to switch to the according setup, be it HSFX or anything else. Of course, I'd like to have only ONE setup for everyone, and luckily, TD is doing exactly that, so far with great success and therefore I give them the most respects.

And for that matter, I'm quite sure TD wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the birth of mods in the first place.

My point here is that when I do notice the poor online numbers, there would be even less players if it wasn't for the extra content DT + UP has gave us. I mean, it's a da** 10-year-old sim =D And for that matter, can anyone recall another game/sim which has lasted longer? (MSFS doesn't quite count as there's so many of them)

About the numerous alterations of FM's regarding FW's, Spits and such, with those I have to disagree to a point as we all have our opinions about "how should it perform" I'd give the responsibility to the ones who has the access to the data and is granted for such modifications, IF necessary, i.e Team Daidalos.
It's VERY difficult to have objective and accurate reports of how these 70-year-old planes should fly, and therefore great care is to be taken, AND also some amout of perspective is needed, to not to take too seriously every single digit about the "max-speed at MSL". It's near impossible to get them even 90% accurate anyways, IMO.

I for one, do enjoy the new planes, (although I DO prefer quality over quantity) maps and the options Zuti has given to the multiplayer.

Just my fifth of an euro.

BluesmanSF

TheGrunch
06-11-2010, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
I'd go further than that. If it were possible to create a group/committee to test/publish results/approve FM's, perception would probably be different.
The problem is that while sites like AAA would get donations for webhosting for dishing out the shiny goods, an FM testing site would not, I suspect.

Rjel
06-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
The problem is that while sites like AAA would get donations for webhosting for dishing out the shiny goods, an FM testing site would not, I suspect.

I'd think after the fiasco of money donations disappearing at AAA, it might be a little more difficult asking for and receiving money from posters. I never thought I would donate to a website before AAA came along. But I thought what they were doing was important to me so I did. I don't know if I would again.

Insuber
06-12-2010, 11:16 AM
Apart from all the pros and cons of mods (all comes at a price, there is no free lunch ...), I think that they have revived the sales of Il-2: 1946. For the first time after years, I've seen copies of the game DVD in shop shelves. It happened the same for BoB II: WoV and CFS3 when the respective mod packs came out.

Personally, I decided to join an online squad only recently, thanks to the new online maps and added features, under an unified ambient, granted by UP.


Regards,
6Sc.Insuber