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Martosaurus
02-20-2005, 03:53 PM
Do you hold the nose off until the mains are rolling, or try for a three-pointer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

SlickStick
02-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Tricycle gear is the easiest to land in this game, because the nose wheel will never break and you can just basically drop it on the runway, three-point landing style, and lay on the brakes until you stop, using rudder to keep straight. No worries about nosing over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you try to touch mains first and are going a bit fast, the nose wheel will bounce insanely sometimes, causing you to crash.

georgeo76
02-20-2005, 04:15 PM
Your supposed to come in nose high as if your in a tail dragger and land 2 point, keeping the wings @ an AoA that acts as a speed brake. Let the nose drop on it's own as lift decreases.

Bearcat99
02-20-2005, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Tricycle gear is the easiest to land in this game, because the nose wheel will never break and you can just basically drop it on the runway, three-point landing style, and lay on the brakes until you stop, using rudder to keep straight. No worries about nosing over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you try to touch mains first and are going a bit fast, the nose wheel will bounce insanely sometimes, causing you to crash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have managed to break the nose gear of a P-39..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

SlickStick
02-20-2005, 05:37 PM
I have yet to see the nose gear break on P-39s, P-38s, P-63s or Me-262s. I must not be smacking them hard enough on the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
02-20-2005, 06:07 PM
Go for the three pointer but let most of the weight fall on the two main wheels and let it gently touch the nose wheel.

This is particularly important for the P-63 but also for the P-39 and other tricycle geared aircraft.

nakamura_kenji
02-21-2005, 02:40 AM
i once land b-25 only nose gear ^_^

MrMoonlight
02-21-2005, 03:03 AM
As a real life pilot, I can tell you that you never want to land a tricycle gear aircraft "three point". You risk overstressing the nose gear and causing a prop strike.

Set it down nose high and let the mains absorb the landing impact. Keep back pressure on the stick and hold the nose wheel off as long as possible after the mains have settled. Once the mains are firmly on the ground, raise your flaps and continue to hold the nose gear off the runway until gravity pulls it down.

Holding the nosewheel off at landing accomplishes two things: The higher AOA of your plane will slow it down faster (higher drag) and require less braking than if you just slam the nosewheel down after landing and stomp on the brakes. Secondly, the risk of damaging or breaking off the nosewheel is reduced if you come in "nose high". I've actually witnessed a student pilot snap the nosegear off of a Piper Cherokee by landing nose wheel first...wasn't pretty.

Flakenstien
02-21-2005, 05:25 AM
I agree with MR Moonlight, first thing my instructor taught me was to bring it in and let the nose settle by itself. I too was witness to a student attempting a three point with a bad outcome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I would say that the same goes in a warbird.
I have a museum close by that flies warbirds on a daily basis (weather premitting) and have also seen Glacier Girl(P38) fly numerous times and not once have I witnessed any of them land three point, always nose high.
I have also busted nose gear on both the 38 and 39 in PFhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SlickStick
02-21-2005, 11:28 AM
Good posts, but my experience comes from in-game and that's the only P-39 he'll be landing anytime soon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I do it just as I posted, getting speed around 200km/h or lower, set it down and lay on the brakes. Although, I've seen main gear break, I have yet, in four years, to see the nose gear break. Others mileage may vary.

mortoma
02-21-2005, 11:52 AM
I can come down on the mains every tme in the sim's P-39/P/400 models. Although it's hard to come in with the nose gear really high up. But I always get the mains first and the nose wheel touches down about 2 or 4 seconds later. The P-63 however, is tougher to get only one the mains first but I can do it. But the nose wheel touches within one to two seconds later at the most so it's close to a three pointer. But the way the P-63 is modelled, that's as good as it gets. But no, don't do a three pointer with a trike, not in the game and not in RL either.

mortoma
02-21-2005, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Tricycle gear is the easiest to land in this game, because the nose wheel will never break and you can just basically drop it on the runway, three-point landing style, and lay on the brakes until you stop, using rudder to keep straight. No worries about nosing over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you try to touch mains first and are going a bit fast, the nose wheel will bounce insanely sometimes, causing you to crash. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, if you land a trike and you touch down on the mains first, that means you're going slow, not fast.
You are thinking about tail draggers. If you come in fast in those you'll always hit mains first. But there's no way you can come in fast in a P-39 in this sim and hit the mains first!!
It ain't happenin!!! In the P-39 the nose wheel hangs down farther than the mains. That's why the nose points sightly upwards when it's parked. A fast landing will always cause the nose wheel to hit first in the P-39. I'd like to see a track if you can prove otherwise.

SlickStick
02-21-2005, 03:51 PM
I defined the speed I usually touch down in the P-39 in a subsequent post to my original. About 200km/h, sometimes faster, but not much faster if I can help it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Quite possibly the mains are touching first, I never looked that close, but I do try for a level landing in most cases with the P-39, as there is no fear of nose-over during braking, unlike certain tail-draggers, especially the Spitfires in PF. That plane hops around on a smooth runway like crazy.

Treetop64
02-21-2005, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martosaurus:
Do you hold the nose off until the mains are rolling, or try for a three-pointer? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, whichever you prefer, okay? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

gerhardius
02-21-2005, 04:43 PM
I once snapped the tail off of a P-63 when I flared too much on landing. The engine still ran and I continued down the runway on 3 wheels without any steering. I was able to stop the half-plane and shut down the now smoking engine. There are a couple of screenshots but haven't a place to post them yet.

Falcon_41
02-21-2005, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Once the mains are firmly on the ground, raise your flaps and continue to hold the nose gear off the runway until gravity pulls it down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


MrMoonlight,

What type of a/c and operation do you fly?

I ask because starting with primary instruction practice is USUALLY to not raise anything or do anything that is not necessary while you are rolling down the rw. Are you aware of this caution and why would you want to raise the flaps anyway?

Many larger aircarrier a/c do it, but only in two pilot opps and as standard procedure.

Thanks,

:FI:Falcon

darkhorizon11
02-21-2005, 06:18 PM
Listen to the real pilots we know what were talking about. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Always land a tricycle gear mains first. Pancaking it down on all three is not only dangerous but treacherous for the gear.

Softfield landings are when you land mains first but keep full back pressure and keep the nose gear off as long as possible. Once again this is to go easy on the nose gear, its often used if your landing on a grass or bumpy field.

You raise flaps on the landing roll because as the plane is rolling on the runway the wings are still creating lift. If you pull up flaps you reduce lift hereby "dropping" the full wieght of the plane on the tires and increasing the effectiveness of the brakes.

Its debated by pilots whether or not its better to use the aerodynamic braking of the flaps or the traction of the tires. Really it depends upon what your flying. Generally, this aerodynamic drag is pretty much negligble below 60mph or so, in a smaller aircraft with the low landing speed pulling up flaps is a better idea to stop if you HAVE to, but it is tougher on your tires and brakes.

I never do because I fly Pipers and the huge flap handle is a distraction taking your eyes off the runway to pull em up. I found this risk dangerous and I won't retract them unless I absoultely have too.

Hope that sheds some light on the issue. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mortoma
02-21-2005, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
I defined the speed I usually touch down in the P-39 in a subsequent post to my original. About 200km/h, sometimes faster, but not much faster if I can help it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Quite possibly the mains are touching first, I never looked that close, but I do try for a level landing in most cases with the P-39, as there is no fear of nose-over during braking, unlike certain tail-draggers, especially the Spitfires in PF. That plane hops around on a smooth runway like crazy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow Slickstick, I'm usually around 150Kph when I touch down on my mains in the P-39!! 200Kph is a really fast landing in that plane.

jarink
02-21-2005, 08:09 PM
When flying a P-39, I usually land using the PLF method.

(Parachute Landing Fall) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

SlickStick
02-21-2005, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
I defined the speed I usually touch down in the P-39 in a subsequent post to my original. About 200km/h, sometimes faster, but not much faster if I can help it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Quite possibly the mains are touching first, I never looked that close, but I do try for a level landing in most cases with the P-39, as there is no fear of nose-over during braking, unlike certain tail-draggers, especially the Spitfires in PF. That plane hops around on a smooth runway like crazy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow Slickstick, I'm usually around 150Kph when I touch down on my mains in the P-39!! 200Kph is a really fast landing in that plane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes I have to get on the ground in a hurry. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I always cut my engine for landings, too. Helps one stop faster. Usually kill engine and magnetos approx. a few hundred meters from base and coast in at 200km/h and falling before touching down most planes. Some a little slower.

La-5FAN
02-21-2005, 11:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SlickStick:
Tricycle gear is the easiest to land in this game, because the nose wheel will never break and you can just basically drop it on the runway, three-point landing style, and lay on the brakes until you stop, using rudder to keep straight. No worries about nosing over. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh. That's what I like about the P-39. I can actually land it!

MrMoonlight
02-22-2005, 12:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Falcon_41:
What type of a/c and operation do you fly?

I ask because starting with primary instruction practice is USUALLY to not raise anything or do anything that is not necessary while you are rolling down the rw. Are you aware of this caution and why would you want to raise the flaps anyway?

Many larger aircarrier a/c do it, but only in two pilot opps and as standard procedure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Falcon,
I fly Beech KingAirs and the Pilatus PC-12 for a private company.

You're correct in that nearly all CFIs instruct their student pilots to clean up the aircraft only after clearing the runway. It's a safety precaution that should be taken seriously. Fumbling for the flaps switch while rolling down the runway can divert your attention or you may accidently reach for the wrong switch.

However, as you become more experienced and start flying higher performance aircraft, you'll find that in certain instances it's necessary to get your flaps up as soon as your mains are firmly on the ground. One such case is when landing in a strong crosswind. Those flaps hanging out there like big barn doors catch the wind and make directional stability more difficult...it's easier for you to get blown off the runway.

As a student pilot, you know that your flaps not only increase drag but also increase lift. Getting them up in certain conditions can prevent your becoming airborne again after touching down, such as when your landing speed needs to be a bit higher than usual.

And also carefully read what darkhorizon11 wrote. He knows what he's talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by SlickStick:
I always cut my engine for landings, too. Helps one stop faster. Usually kill engine and magnetos approx. a few hundred meters from base and coast in at 200km/h and falling before touching down most planes. Some a little slower.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which goes to show you that FB/PF is only a sim and alot of real world physics doesn't even come into play. It lets you get away with stuff that would get you killed in real life...blown tires and overheated brakes aren't modeled. Cutting the power and "gliding in" in a relatively heavy, high-performance fighter is extremely dangerous, since your sinkrate increases dramatically with no power. And why on earth would anyone want to kill the magnetos on approach? What if just before touchdown, something goes amiss and you need to apply full power to go around?

SlickStick
02-22-2005, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrMoonlight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Falcon_41:
What type of a/c and operation do you fly?

I ask because starting with primary instruction practice is USUALLY to not raise anything or do anything that is not necessary while you are rolling down the rw. Are you aware of this caution and why would you want to raise the flaps anyway?

Many larger aircarrier a/c do it, but only in two pilot opps and as standard procedure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Falcon,
I fly Beech KingAirs and the Pilatus PC-12 for a private company.

You're correct in that nearly all CFIs instruct their student pilots to clean up the aircraft only after clearing the runway. It's a safety precaution that should be taken seriously. Fumbling for the flaps switch while rolling down the runway can divert your attention or you may accidently reach for the wrong switch.

However, as you become more experienced and start flying higher performance aircraft, you'll find that in certain instances it's necessary to get your flaps up as soon as your mains are firmly on the ground. One such case is when landing in a strong crosswind. Those flaps hanging out there like big barn doors catch the wind and make directional stability more difficult...it's easier for you to get blown off the runway.

As a student pilot, you know that your flaps not only increase drag but also increase lift. Getting them up in certain conditions can prevent your becoming airborne again after touching down, such as when your landing speed needs to be a bit higher than usual.

And also carefully read what darkhorizon11 wrote. He knows what he's talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by SlickStick:
I always cut my engine for landings, too. Helps one stop faster. Usually kill engine and magnetos approx. a few hundred meters from base and coast in at 200km/h and falling before touching down most planes. Some a little slower.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which goes to show you that FB/PF is only a sim and alot of real world physics doesn't even come into play. It lets you get away with stuff that would get you killed in real life...blown tires and overheated brakes aren't modeled. Cutting the power and "gliding in" in a relatively heavy, high-performance fighter is extremely dangerous, since your sinkrate increases dramatically with no power. And why on earth would anyone want to kill the _magnetos_ on approach? What if just before touchdown, something goes amiss and you need to apply full power to go around? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too true, but as you stated we are dealing with a simulation here and once in awhile, I do misjudge my distance and speed from base and almost run out of power, but 99% of the time it gets me on the ground the fastest.

Sure, I wouldn't be doing the same thing IRL, but it's what works in the game for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Falcon_41
02-22-2005, 06:44 AM
MrMoonlight,

Roger, lots of cockpit discussion about techniques will always keep pilots busy on those long hauls. I have over 5000 hrs in King Airs and 1900's and under normal operations (especially if you own a piece of the a/c http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) you should remember all those little things your TO/CFI taught you and to be especially wary of hearing yourself say things like, "...but now that I'm more experienced and flying big stuff ...". I agree that when max performance maneuvers are necessary you do what is needed for the safety of the flight, but I flew 99% of my time never touching the brakes until the last tap at the terminal for the sake of the owners and not fiddling with flaps and lights and stuff until clear for the sake of the pax.

thanks again,

:FI:Fal "oh Gawd, is he on about that again?" con http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif