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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:08 AM
Some of us old jugheads are just wondering if there was ever any official responce to the damage model issues the P-47 had?

Even if the developrs are aware of how the aircraft behaves under fire, and those peculiar quirks, and have concluded that that is how it actually behaved when shot, we would like to know. At least the Wurgure whiners get told that nothing will change; we get left in the dark, wondering if we were even heard.

I'd gladly repost the entire laundry list of odd things I have seen the aircraft do, with tracks, and demonstrations, if anyone is interested. It is to long to post just to post though.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 08/08/0307:08PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:08 AM
Some of us old jugheads are just wondering if there was ever any official responce to the damage model issues the P-47 had?

Even if the developrs are aware of how the aircraft behaves under fire, and those peculiar quirks, and have concluded that that is how it actually behaved when shot, we would like to know. At least the Wurgure whiners get told that nothing will change; we get left in the dark, wondering if we were even heard.

I'd gladly repost the entire laundry list of odd things I have seen the aircraft do, with tracks, and demonstrations, if anyone is interested. It is to long to post just to post though.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 08/08/0307:08PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:23 AM
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Message Edited on 08/09/0302:24AM by Fresshness

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:38 AM
I can only say it seemed better in the beta patch Harry.

Don't mind freshness. Bad chili or something.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
08-09-2003, 01:44 AM
I took 5 direct hits from a MK108...My plane looked like crap but she got me home...barely

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:53 AM
I hope the 1.1b patch will also improve the gunsight of the Jug. The face count is simply to low and is has too many edges. I never liked that.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:00 PM
I don`t understand.Right now P47 is tougher than IL2!I had to put 10xMK108 shells in it to down it.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:03 PM
The Mk108 damage isn't the problem.

The problem is how it responds to light calibre fire from various angles.

Any hits to the turbocharger stage kill the engine. You can test this by setting up a dogfight with a Pz.11c and flying head on at it, without firing. Every flight the engine will be hit in such a way that you will see oil on the windscreen, and feel a noticable loss of power. Within ten minute the engine will be destroyed, indicated by the manifold pressure dropping to the ambient air pressure.

Any fuel tank leaks do not seal, nomatter what weapon they were caused by, and they will drain the aircraft's entire fuel system. If you have a fuel tank leak, you have between ten and twenty minutes before the aircraft is no longer powered, forcing P-47 pilots to take 100% fuel if thy want any hope of making back to base after a firefight. You can test this by setting up a multiplayer game, and while on the ground, have someone in an He-111 shoot your aircraft until a fuel leak occures. I haven't been able to test this under controlled conditions yet (most people in public servers don't like the -400 point penalty for killing friendly aircraft.)

The aircraft's controlls are extremely vulnerable to damage. Low calibre hits to either of the ailerons are most likely to jam the ailerons.

Pilot kills are still very high in that aircraft, even after relatively light damage. That, however, I suspect may be due to pilots being modelled with to little durability. It seems that WWII pilots came back shot full of holes with high frequency.

The P-47 as it stands now is incredibly vulnerable to enemy fire, provided the player realises when it has been destroyed. You aren't going to rip wings off of it, that is true, but even apparently light damage is more than enough to bring it down.

Harry Voyager

These aren't just occational events either. Every single time I fly the P-47, I lose either the engine, the fuel, or the controls within a few minutes. If I ever have a Thunderbolt flight that lasts more than ten minutes, it's because I spent that time climbing for fighting altitude or lost looking for bogeys. These aren't minor hits either; any single one of them guarantees that you will not make it back to base. It makes one wonder, if it was that easily crippled under fire, how on earth did it manage a 99.3% combat return rate?

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 08/09/0308:10AM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:10 PM
In other words, the Jug suffers from slow painful deaths instead of the instant destruction that you might get from another aircraft.

Having a little experience with this myself, I too have noticed that a little damage seems to seriously impair a P-47 while on a similar aircraft (the IL-2 for instance) you are still fairly air worthy. The IL-2 works nicely however because it does take alot of punishment before falling completely apart. The P-47 on the other hand takes the punishment and just keeps slowly dying. The engine is going to go in 10 minutes or all the fuel is going to leak till you have none...that sort of thing.

I'm sure that the devs have already looked at the damage model and found out why this is. After all, we all know the Jug was a tough plane that brought the pilot back alive often enough...we also should know that if you land enough hits...any plane is going to stop working properly.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:41 PM
Well taht's what I want to know, is if the devs are even aware of it. We hear much abotu the Fw-190's visibility, and the Hurricain's fligth model, but the P-47 seems all but forgotten.

It would be nice to hear something, even if only a negative.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:50 PM
One of the problems which effected all US planes was leakage (sp?). Once you had a fuel tank leak, the jug would run dry although it should have self sealing fuel tanks. AFAIK, that was fixed in the Beta05 which i tested for 2 days. I don't know what the Beta08 is all about though. The engine seems to be the biggest problem of the Jug with the rudder control in hot pursuit.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:05 PM
hmm yes i agree ... The jug was supposed to have well protected powerplant, but at the moment its not.. allways engine damaged.. and other problem is loosing the gunsight.. when it gets destroyed so easily.. almost as irritating as BF-109 loosing controls so easily. Thouugh I wonder how many hits A P-47 would sustain from real MK108? I think 10 is a lot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif And P-47 is almost impossible to down with MG151/20.. Try kill a P-47 with FW-190 F8, when you shoot from rear.. P-47 takes more damage than best Bombers in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif only to loose powerplant by small calibre MGs and loosing gunsight is a real problem for the Jug.. Though if these things gets fixxed in the patch, I wonder how hard it is to down a P-47 with FW-190.. since MG151/20 and MG131 don't have any effect on the Jug.. Christ, why didn't they make a bigger version of P-47 and use it as a heavy bomber /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:22 PM
I find the entire DM to be questionable.

I flew offline in a yak1b against 4 Ju88's, they pounded away at me, I had no problems shooting all 4 down - worse I had was a few small holes in my wings.


A general, across the board overhaul is needed - hoping to see these improvements on Wednesday.


I'd like to see more e-bleed on many of aircraft when they take hits on the wings, etc... more about performance decrease after taking hits.



S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://forgottenwars.dyndns.org
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:26 PM
I like to practise strafing in the Jug on the Mountain map and beside the engine damage, oil all over the windscreen and the broken gunsight, the most annoying problem i always have is the loss of the rudder control. Some planes seem to have invulnerable engines, other seem to have paer ones. I guess that's a result of a DM which tries to simulate complex damage with a simplified formula and limited damage points on the planes. The result is somewhat unpredictable.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:37 AM
S!

You think 10 Mk108 cannon shots are too much ?

Here's a little reality check for you from Robert S. Johnson. How about 21 20mm cannon hits and over 200 7.92mm machinegun hits and the 47 still flew and landed.


"As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before.

One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that."

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:26 AM
Hi BigK,

One Mk108 should rip the wings of any fighter, P47 included. One single Mk108 in a B-17 wing leaved a hole the size of a fighter wing.

Also a single Mk108 shot in the fuselage should rip it of in most cases, or leave a hole so big that flying is impossible (or tail will break because of the aerodynamic pressure).


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:35 AM
You want that to be modelled in the P-47 in FB?! That didn't even happen in real life.The B-17(a hardy bird her self)maybe,but you underestimate the sheer durability of the Thunderbolt....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 08:40 AM
I played the FB beta8 the other night in a 190D. Against a P-47, I came from behind and fired the nose guns (12.7mm?). Instantly the P-47 (AI) blew up. That was wierd.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 10:47 AM
Yeah, but sometimes a 30mm shell (don't know MK103 or MK108) break into pieces like fireworks on impact, and it seems that shot is ineffective. Is that true?

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:16 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
- Also a single Mk108 shot in the fuselage should rip
- it of in most cases, or leave a hole so big that
- flying is impossible (or tail will break because of
- the aerodynamic pressure).
-

I'll point out the test you are talking about was on the tail of a Spitfire. The P-47's empennage has about two to three times the raw diameter of the Spitfires, with about nine times the internal volume. A hole the size of a basketball may break the tail off of a Spitfire, but it isn't going to do much to the P-47 by just itself.

That plane was ridiculously overbuilt. There was at least one incident, where an experimenting pilot* managed to slam his plane into the ground at close to 600mph and most of the fuselage was still recognizably intact. Do that with most planes and you have a pile of aluminum chips.

I am told the standard debries pattern for a high speed impact of that sort is a crater containing the tail section, and small debries surrounding. At those speed the tail section typically pushes the rest of the airframe out of the crater, breaking it into small peices, though the tail will be slowed enough that it will still be recognizable after impact. The Thunderbolt, by contrast has enough structural strength that up to the pilot's compartment remained recognisably intact.

(*He was trying to see if pushing the controls in the opposite direction would work after the onset of compressibility. It didn't.)

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:24 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- The aircraft's controlls are extremely vulnerable to
- damage. Low calibre hits to either of the ailerons
- are most likely to jam the ailerons.


Damaging controls is a problem in all aircraft.It happens too often and results from light calibre.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:47 AM
carguy_ wrote:
-
- HarryVoyager wrote:
-- The aircraft's controlls are extremely vulnerable to
-- damage. Low calibre hits to either of the ailerons
-- are most likely to jam the ailerons.
-
-
- Damaging controls is a problem in all aircraft.It
- happens too often and results from light calibre.
-
- "degustibus non disputandum"
-

True, though it's one of those problems that impacts the P-47 more severely than most aircraft, just as low pilot durability is an issue in all aircraft, but it seems to impact the 190 and P-47 most severely.

On a side note, the 190 also seems able to resist multiple Mk108 hits with little problem, though it is vulnerable to wing hits.

Now, if you really want to see how quickly a P-47 can fly to bits, try a dogfight in it against a Bf-110G-2, with the two Mk108 nose guns. That plane will ruin your day in a real hurry.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:20 PM
BigKahuna_GS wrote:
- S!
-
- You think 10 Mk108 cannon shots are too much ?
-
- Here's a little reality check for you from Robert S.
- Johnson. How about 21 20mm cannon hits and over 200
- 7.92mm machinegun hits and the 47 still flew and
- landed.

10 Mk108 hits are the equivalent of about 40+ 20mm
cannon hits. Plus there are always statistical
outliers. That _a_ plane flew with 21 20mm cannon hits
doesn't mean that most would.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:23 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- I'll point out the test you are talking about was on
- the tail of a Spitfire.

Actually it was a Blenheim. (or the famous RAF
test photo of a 30mm shell, which I presume is
what you are referring to).

- The P-47's empennage has
- about two to three times the raw diameter of the
- Spitfires, with about nine times the internal
- volume. A hole the size of a basketball may break
- the tail off of a Spitfire, but it isn't going to do
- much to the P-47 by just itself.
-
- That plane was ridiculously overbuilt.

But 2 to 5 30mm hits were considered enough to down
a B17. I don't think the P47 really had the ability
to absorb twice the damage of the B17, although
construction details may differ - being larger (the
B17) doesn't necessarily mean it is more durable.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:38 PM
true Harry, Too bad that FB doesn't model such things correctly during a crash landing. The Jug crashes like every other plane with the same sort of damage, whereas most of the times, there is not enough damage and most of the plane is always intact.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:56 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- I find the entire DM to be questionable.
-
- I flew offline in a yak1b against 4 Ju88's, they
- pounded away at me, I had no problems shooting all 4
- down - worse I had was a few small holes in my
- wings.
-

You are right.. Yaks are best bomber killers.. not only they have those superb rockets (which don't affect on the plane perfomance at all!), but takes a lot of punishment (for beeing the lightest a/c in the game, well almost).. and Yak never looses engine.. Only pilot kills might be problem, and even that happens extremely rarely..

I don't think P-47 could live after one or two MK108 hits.. but in reallife i believe MK108 was very hard to use, not to mention to gain success with.. because of its low muzzle velocity.. so you had to shoot extremely close.. only expert LW-pilots probably scored hits with the Mk108 on fighters.. Bombers might had been easier targets though. But if you scored hits, your hit would have disasterious impact.. Too bad FB is only a game /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:48 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- But 2 to 5 30mm hits were considered enough to down
- a B17. I don't think the P47 really had the ability
- to absorb twice the damage of the B17, although
- construction details may differ - being larger (the
- B17) doesn't necessarily mean it is more durable.
-

The B-17 is not armoured. While it had a resiliant structure, it was just to big for any amount of armour coverage, while still being able to carry a decent amount of bombs. Same thing with nearly all bombers.

The P-47 on the other hand, is a very well armoured fighter, and possibly one of the best armoured fighters used in WWII; well on par with the Fw-190 for durability and armour coverage.

The Mk108 has terrible armour penetration. It's shell is, essentially a small grenade that explodes when it hits anything. That doesn't work well against armour. Rounds such as the MG151/20's and the Mk103's have enough penetration behind them that they explode inside the armour plate, or past it, causing signifignat damage to the structure. The Mk108 hits an armour plate and explodes, sending most of its energy away from the plate, leaving the armour unharmed.

Now, for reference, I ran some tests in Il-2 a little while ago, using the Mk108 against the Fw-190A-8, the P-47D-27, and the Il-2I. All three aircraft took around 3-5 rounds to reliably kill. Sometimes the P-47 would explode violently upon a single hit. I fired from around 100m (0.1km) in most cases.

So basically, if you are saying the Thunderbolt is overmodeled, as far as its resistance to the Mk108 is concerned, then the Fw-190 and Il-2 are equally over modeled.

The Mk108 just is not a good weapon for use against fighters.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:05 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- The P-47 on the other hand, is a very well armoured
- fighter,

It has armour protecting some things, but that
doesn't mean that the skin of the aircraft is somehow
armoured. The wings and rear fuselage (the areas
most visible in a 6 attack) are not composed of
an armoured skin. Thus despite the low armour
penetration abilities of the Mk108 these areas
are still vulnerable to explosion damage. This means
that (much like on a B17) these are liable to
have large sections of panelling blown off, and
structural damage to spars, and so on.

The armour means that the engine, pilot, etc
are relatively protected, but the plane as a whole is not.

What is in the P47's favour over the B17 is the
relative density of spars per unit volume of aircraft -
it is higher, so it can lose more spars and still fly.
On the other hand, it is a smaller plane, so a Mk108
detonation puts a greater proportion of the total
structure at risk.

- So basically, if you are saying the Thunderbolt is
- overmodeled, as far as its resistance to the Mk108
- is concerned, then the Fw-190 and Il-2 are equally
- over modeled.

On the whole it was reckoned that 1 or 2 Mk108
hits would down most fighters in WW2. 3 to 5 seems
a little over the top for the 190, Il2, or P47. Is
this with the leaked 08 patch, or vanilla FB?

However, I think it is pretty reasonable to suggest
that taking 10 Mk108 (as a previous poster suggested
was sometimes possible in FB) would be an unlikely
occurence in real life.

- The Mk108 just is not a good weapon for use against
- fighters.

Only in terms of its ballistics, as it is a relatively
low velocity weapon. With a sufficient ROF (You
really need a pair to get a decent ROF) it should
be able to blow fairly hefty pieces off fighters, even
if it has some problems penetrating pilot armour. So
it should be able to kill the plane (for example, by
depriving it of a wing) even if the pilot gets out
alive. There may be an issue with regard to its penetration
and possibly bouncing off low angle plates in a six
attack, which would be more of an issue than the armour
penetration.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:20 PM
AaronGT wrote:
- On the whole it was reckoned that 1 or 2 Mk108
- hits would down most fighters in WW2. 3 to 5 seems
- a little over the top for the 190, Il2, or P47. Is
- this with the leaked 08 patch, or vanilla FB?
-
- However, I think it is pretty reasonable to suggest
- that taking 10 Mk108 (as a previous poster suggested
- was sometimes possible in FB) would be an unlikely
- occurence in real life.
-

This is with FB 1.0. I have not tried the leaked betas.

As for the P=47 taking ten or more hits, I have never seen this happen in a controlled and recorded enviroment. I have, however, fired volleys of twenty of so rounds, at ver short range, only to have one or two rounds hit. I strongly suspect that claims of a Thunderbolt taking 10 or more rounds of Mk108, and remaining flying are a gross exageration, and garnered from untracked online flying.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 10:10 PM
In beta08 the number of MK108 hits to down a P47 has been reduced. Either due to change to the MK108, or change to the P47 (probably the former, as it doesn't look like the P47 was tweaked).

After shooting down a dozen (AI) P47s, I find that it is still technically possible to hit a P47 ten times with MK108, and the aircraft survive. This is when you are firing directly into the rear fuselage from a medium range, and by luck don't hit any of the fuselage ribs (this causes the fuselage to come off).

However, in the one occasion of those 12 that it happened, the pilot bailed out. The greatest number of hits survived without bailing out was about 5-6, and the majority were destroyed/bailed out in 3 hits or less. The fuselage could be destroyed with one critical hit, as well as a wing.

On the player flyable model, the perpetually leaking tank is still present (as tested against TB-3s), and can still be made to leak by a single 7mm. The frequent oil on he window is still present, as does the engine still frequently degrade or die as a result of single digit 7mm hits (although I didn't check to see if the turbo intake was hit). The pilot can still be easily hit by 7mm shells, though not usually killed until being shot 4 or 5 times, and bullets are more likely to penetrate the floor than the canopy. The double gunsight cockpit DM bug is still present.

So like I said before, the P47 DM doesn't appear to have been changed. 09 will probably (hopeufully) be different.

<div align=center>http://www.members.shaw.ca/fennec/plane.jpg </div><font size=-9>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 10:30 PM
Crap...I'm praying the official patch fixes these problems...I can't believe that after all this time they wouldn't be fixed.

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 10:48 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- As for the P=47 taking ten or more hits, I have
- never seen this happen in a controlled and recorded
- enviroment. I have, however, fired volleys of
- twenty of so rounds, at ver short range, only to
- have one or two rounds hit. I strongly suspect that
- claims of a Thunderbolt taking 10 or more rounds of
- Mk108, and remaining flying are a gross exageration,
- and garnered from untracked online flying.

Could be - there might be packet loss involved -
your front end shows hits that are never seen at
the recipient's end.

1 to 2 was reckoned to be the number required to
down a fighter. The P47 was probably tougher than
most, I'm just not sure that given the propensity
for the 30mm to blow a number of panels off a plane,
whether an enhanced resistance to 12.7/13 and 20mm
rounds translates into an enhanced resistance to
30mm rounds in real life. The 30mm probably
carried something like 5 times the explosive charge
of a 20mm round.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 02:46 AM
Harry,
She STILL dies from one 7,9mm round to the SC duct.
Got the 08 beta to prove it-
Chris

PS rollrate in beta08 same as before.
Stalls more.
Slightly faster.
I hope I mentioned BETA.

First thing I'm going to check tomorrow when the patch comes out is the P-47!



http://members.cox.net/miataman1/wurger.bmp

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 05:15 AM
chris455 wrote:
- Harry,
- She STILL dies from one 7,9mm round to the SC duct.
- Got the 08 beta to prove it-
- Chris
-
- PS rollrate in beta08 same as before.
- Stalls more.
- Slightly faster.
- I hope I mentioned BETA.


Unbelievable! Why does this seem so hard to correct?!

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 06:42 AM
History tell us P-47 is really an un-die-able (or invincible) plane. Just forget the 10 MK-108, but P-47 in FB behaves differently from the fact which is quite disappointing -- fire power, durability...

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:17 AM
about the firepower, your guns are split between your cannon and MG trigger. One shoots the outer guns, the other shoots the inner guns.

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 09:48 AM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- The B-17 is not armoured. While it had a resiliant
- structure, it was just to big for any amount of
- armour coverage, while still being able to carry a
- decent amount of bombs. Same thing with nearly all
- bombers.

P-47 wings are not armored. There were no fighter which could withstand a single Mk108 shell on the wing.


- The P-47 on the other hand, is a very well armoured
- fighter, and possibly one of the best armoured
- fighters used in WWII; well on par with the Fw-190
- for durability and armour coverage.

Regular A-8 had 160kg of armor, how much armor P-47 had?
Frankly I don't understand why are you so surprised that 7mm hits blows up the cylinders, it happened in reality. Cylinder rows were not covered by armored cowlings.




<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:09 AM
Maybe, just maybe, you hit with your 30mm AP and tracers, but missed with your HE. It could happen. A P-47 with ten 30mm holes in its wings is going to fly home without any problem. But in Beta 08 I saw 1-2 Mk108 shells pop the wing off of a P-47 from 200m.

We'll see in another 6 hours /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Clay.Pigeon


http://www.aviation-central.com/1940-1945/images/aeb00-p61.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 10:45 AM
But history proves that almost all radiator engines could go on with several cylinders knocked out, atleast the Double Wasp R2800. There were Jugs which were missing more than 3 cylinders and the engine didn't die. Beside that, i really doubt that one 7,62mm bullet can kill a radiator engine completely, Maybe a liquid cooled one with a hit into the cooling system but not a radial engine.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

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"God Song" by Bad Religion