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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:12 PM
Good day everyone.

I new to IL2 FB, and there some questions I got about flight technique, I can't find answers. I have completed original IL2 Sturmovik as German fighter, but I understand, that I still flying like a lame with wings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That release lack of realism, my dogfighting tactics was spin around 'til enemy aircraft was approximately in point of fire, then shoot. It works bad with old 1938 planes, but with later, such la5, it was easy and dull. I completed game only to kill time and look on excellent graphic views.
Then I got FB, and this release amaze me ! It was more, more complex, from flight model 'till fighting. Then I look in my eyes and understand that I knew nothing about dogfighting. I spend some times, reading tech docs from internet, it gives some explanations about flight phisycs, but still not about air combat. I need manual, or some advise, please.

Situation 1.
I flew old Mig, and got La5 on my tail. How can I shake it off ?
Computer pilot in this situation simply tirns and spins around. I spins too - it takes long minutes of dull flying around and trying not to stall, while someone due plane advantage in maneuring, gets another one in cross. I don't think real air combat looks like this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Tutorial lesson sad something about 'scysors', but maneuring plane hit the ground, due lack of speed, while demonstration it in demo, I hope you remeber that funny thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So, what do you think about it ?

Situation 2.
What is the best way to enter combat ? Head to head looks like it is a way for hot russian guy (nothing offensive, I am russian http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , and it too chance-related. If I enter combat from 3 or 9, then everything comes to situation 1 - just dull flying around.

So, Aces, can anyone poit on some kind of manual, please, or answer this ?

Thanks for your help, guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 05:12 PM
Good day everyone.

I new to IL2 FB, and there some questions I got about flight technique, I can't find answers. I have completed original IL2 Sturmovik as German fighter, but I understand, that I still flying like a lame with wings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That release lack of realism, my dogfighting tactics was spin around 'til enemy aircraft was approximately in point of fire, then shoot. It works bad with old 1938 planes, but with later, such la5, it was easy and dull. I completed game only to kill time and look on excellent graphic views.
Then I got FB, and this release amaze me ! It was more, more complex, from flight model 'till fighting. Then I look in my eyes and understand that I knew nothing about dogfighting. I spend some times, reading tech docs from internet, it gives some explanations about flight phisycs, but still not about air combat. I need manual, or some advise, please.

Situation 1.
I flew old Mig, and got La5 on my tail. How can I shake it off ?
Computer pilot in this situation simply tirns and spins around. I spins too - it takes long minutes of dull flying around and trying not to stall, while someone due plane advantage in maneuring, gets another one in cross. I don't think real air combat looks like this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Tutorial lesson sad something about 'scysors', but maneuring plane hit the ground, due lack of speed, while demonstration it in demo, I hope you remeber that funny thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So, what do you think about it ?

Situation 2.
What is the best way to enter combat ? Head to head looks like it is a way for hot russian guy (nothing offensive, I am russian http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , and it too chance-related. If I enter combat from 3 or 9, then everything comes to situation 1 - just dull flying around.

So, Aces, can anyone poit on some kind of manual, please, or answer this ?

Thanks for your help, guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:18 PM
You've got to be kidding?


Tedious unoriginal philosophical statement the PITH of which is lost in repetition.

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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:24 PM
Here's a couple of links I have from my ol' CFS days that will get ya started:

http://www.njahof.org/jager/tactics.html

http://www.paul.fitzsimons.btinternet.co.uk/tactics.html

Good luck and check your six! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,
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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:25 PM
Flap,

I'd like to help unlike the guy above me, ( above the guy with the mustang in his sig) but I dont know enough. Hang around a bit there are some good sorts in here, they just probably aren't online at the moment.



Message Edited on 10/03/0305:26PM by iamsnip

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:46 PM
If you already know basic combat maneuvers, then all you need is practice. learn the characteristics of each plane.

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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 06:59 PM
It's never easy to answer these types of questions, as you can never learn too much about combat. I've been flying air combat sims for 7 years, and still there are always people better than me, and always something new to learn everyday.

Basically, it's time and experience which you must gain. Making out imaginary "scenarios" and following them through your head works very good, and it is very helpful, but still you have to try to understand the principle behind combat to fully utilize, and even improve a certain type of combat tactic - as the unexpected always happens, and sometimes, "scenarios" become more of a hinderance than help.

The first rule of air combat which applies to both cases you questioned, is to never get the enemy behind you in the first place.

This of course, means more than what it seems to say literally. Many of the times the enemy will actually be behind you. What you have to do is always try to remain in a situation which you can personally manage - this also takes experience. There are some things which you know you can do, and somethings which you really know you cannot do, and if I were in the Mig-3 with a La-5FN settled behind my back, I pretty much know I'm going to get shot down, unless I'm absolutely sure that the enemy is less skilled than me. After a few merges and passes a good pilot immediately recognizes if the enemy pilot is good or novice.

"Never get the enemy behind you", thus, means you have to stay keen to your enemy's every move, and counter it according to your situation at hand. By doing so, you will at least manage a stale-mate.


..

In the first case, the only real hope you have, is to overshoot the enemy. If the attempt succeeds, then you have to quickly decide whether you will use this advantage to turn the tables and try to shoot him down, or if you will use it to accelerate as fast as possible and get out of there, before the enemy turns back and engages you again.

A series of rolls is always nice, but you would need to do it in a manner the enemy does not expect - at least for the moment. Going plain left, right, left, right, is much too easy to anticipate, and the enemy to counter. Pick up as much speed as you can, and enter a shallow turn to one side. Draw the enemy in as close as you can, and then enter scissors abruptly, whether in the plain or rolling scissors method(A rolling scissors is a situation which comes out when the defender tries to overshoot the attacker, and the attacker aims to avoid being overshot by also entering a barrel roll).

This method generally yields high success rates, as when you enter a shallow turn, the enemy is fixated in trying to follow your turn, probably looking through the sights for a good aim. As you abruptly enter a barrel roll(which, the speed and radius of the barrel, is determined by the attacker's condition) you lose a lot of speed while going in a circular plane of flight - the enemy can try to follow you, but he is always one step behind you, as he has to see you and then react. That one step, could prove to be fatal to him because it means he is blowing away his speed one step later than you. The result, is often he cannot get a shot in, and he overshoots.

If you have managed a clean overshoot, you will be able to immediately follow his overshot rear-end, and turn the tables. If you didn't manage it good enough, the enemy will try to fly upwards, and you won't have enough E to chase him. In that situation, it usually becomes rolling scissors - where the outcome is decided by who can manage a larger barrel roll radius with slower speed, without stalling.

This is but one of many methods which you might try, but you must remember that however a defender may perfectly execute a defensive maneuver, it only works when the enemy falls for it. Typically, good pilots are prepared to counter such defensives, and AI pilots in QMB missions never fall for such moves - that is why you must try not to get in that situation in the first place.

...


As for your second question on the initial merge, it all depends on altitude, speed, planes etc etc. Various many methods, and counter methods to those, are available.

For instance, one classic example is the "lead loop" method. You see an enemy coming in to you at higher altitude at your 12 O'c. He speeds down towards you almost as if looking for a head-on shot. In this situation, you should not meet him face to face. You nose down into a shallow dive and catch some speed, and see what the enemy is doing. If you see him start to roll as he nears very close, it usually means he will enter a split-S and try to get to your 6 O'c position.

Since you are diving shallow, and he is coming in to you straight from higher speed and altitude(thus, meaning also higher angle of dive), even if he enters his split-S, his maneuvering radius will be very wide. As he rolls 180 degrees and passes over you, you pull up and enter a barrel roll. If successful, the enemy will split-S, but blow past you without being able to get a shot in.

If that happens, if he enters a turn to right or left, you will catch him. If he just dives down, you can choose to either follow him or not. If he zooms up again, you have a good chance you can follow his zoom climb. If the enemy just chooses to extend straight and level, then you have a chance to gain some altitude and meet him in equal terms at the next merge, or use that small time to turn around and run away as fast as possible.

Now, in the attacker's shoes, he can counter your move by either faking a split-S, or not giving you a chance to do your move at all, by not doing a split-S, and moving towards your six through an effective wingover or high-yoyo.

There are many variations to this "scenario" alone. So the initial merge will solely have to depend on the situation.


Hope this helps.


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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 07:05 PM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0870210599/103-2613787-4359853?v=glance

http://home1.gte.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm


If you are serious about learning Fighter Combat then check out the first link and consider getting the book listed on that page titled "Fighter Combat"


The second link is an example of one tactic described in the book and an interpretation of that tactic as it applies to two planes in the game.



JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:09 PM
Dogfighting is for n00b's and sallies.

Learn E tactics and master the art of the "bounce".

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Hawgdog
10-03-2003, 08:25 PM
Good links Taz
I know this sounds like BS...but, online play sharpens your skills QUICKLY.
I flew offline for weeks, till I got good enough without using the slow down button. Got fairly good, offline, went online, got my wing handed to me over and over, and it was a couple of days till I got my first kill. Still remember it well.
Find a server that has externals, when you go down, scroll and watch some of the other flyers to pick up some tricks, especially the high point ones, see what they do when someone jumps them.
practice and lots of it.
If a better pilot gets on your six, its almost always over. Keep looking over your shoulder, use the rudder to get a better view and avoid the obvious. Jump someones six and see what they do to get rid of you.

AI planes dont even come close to humans. Not even close. With practice you can swat a few AI average 109's with an I-16 before you get killed, online....everyone and everything will get cha
good luck

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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 08:42 PM
The guys here already gave you some good links to get you started. kweassa's advice especially is very thorough and helpful. So I'll just add what I can:

First of all, it's a lot better to practise online. I also spent much of my time with FB offline, but I found the AI doesn't give you a chance to use their plane's weaknesses, because the AI uses a simplified flight model and thus is not bound by many of the same disadvantaged a human pilot would be. I also found that while they only know one way to fight (which is, turn and burn), they do it very effectively. If you give them a plane which is good in turning, you almost don't have a chance, as the AI rarely makes mistakes.

Secondly (and this is probably the most important thing you will ever learn about air combat), know your plane and the enemy plane. If you know what advantages and disadvantages both of your planes have, you can try to use your strengths and his weaknesses to win the battle. You want to get the enemy to fight on your terms. If you let him dictate the battle, you're much more likely to lose.
As an example to the above, let's say you are flying a FW-190 against a La-7. The FW is a very good climber and diver, has good performance at high altitudes, and has an incredible rollrate. However, it is not a good turning plane.
The La-7, on the other hand, is strong in most departments. It has a good roll-rate, turns very well and climbs very well. However, it's performance at high altitude is poor, and it breaks apart quickly in a dive.
In this case, you should strive to attack from above, at as high an altitude as possible. If you can get him to fight at 5Km and above, the battle is as good as yours. Dive down on him, try to get a short burst in, and use your acquired speed to zoom back up where he can't reach you. Keep doing this until you shoot him down (this tactic is called Boom and Zoom, or BnZ for short).
In the event that he does manage to get on your tail, your best bet is to dive. If you have some altitude below you, enter a fairly steep dive (though I wouldn't recommend going completely vertical). The La-7 starts to break apart at about 650 Kmh, while your plane can go up to 750 or so without any damage. He won't be able to follow you, and you'll be able to gain speed and extend away from him. After that, though, I would recommend you use your superior speed to exit the fight. If you turn around and try to fight him now, he will have altitude advantage, and you will have a very hard time fighting him.

(Just as a sidenote - this tactic won't work against AI-controlled La's, because (as I mentioned), they are not subject to the same limitations a human player is.)

If you don't have enough altitude to dive away, try to use your roll-rate to throw him off. Try faking a few turns to the left or right, then quickly rolling and turning away in the opposite direction. The La probably won't be able to follow, as he has a slower rollrate (although I'm not completely sure about that). After that, you can try and enter a horizontal scissors. This is a series of quick turns when you both turn onto each other to try and get a shot off (I don't really feel like writing a full explanation at the moment, as that would take a while - sorry). Rollrate is very important in a scissors, so you should have the advantage there.

I don't have anything else to add off the top of my head. Just to answer your second question though - the best way to enter combat is with an altitude advantage (how much depends on what plane you're flying), preferably so the enemy won't notice you coming (either from behind where he can't see you, or come in from the sun). You won't always have such an advantageous position though, so be prepared to enter fights with a disadvantage.

Other than that, practise practise practise! There are some good books and tutorials about combat tactics, and they should give you an idea of what to do when. But remember that combat is never done "by the book". In time you'll develop a feel for what maneuvers to perform and when.

Hawgdog
10-03-2003, 09:39 PM
I wanna add- previous poster made me think
AI IS predictable, human's aren't
However, if you see a high enemy turning towards a friendly often they are only focused on the "easy" target. You can sometimes take advantage of this. Watch those B&Z'ers too- those are the easiest to pick off!! Watch 'em for a burn or two and figure out how high they go, some of them will almost hang there making a very easy target- just time your interception to their high point, its easier than it sounds.

stay away from the daisey chain (red blue red blue red blue) turn and burn dogfights on the ground....
unless you're the last in the train http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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When you get to hell, tell 'em Hawgdog sent you
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XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 10:19 PM
Boy have you gotten detail here. Your honest and its easy to relate to your early in-flight (sim) reactions.

I haven't flown on-line (my modem crawls) but I can understand the stimulation of that raw engagement and the eyes opening up much quicker. I've learned quite casual but I had plenty of previous experience with the other popular WW2 sims. At first though it does kind of hit you in the face because with this sim you can't take the AI for granted.

If your using the unpatched version, the enemy AI is more difficult than with the most recent 1.11. If you don't start online keep this in mind because with less aggressive AI you may work your way into it faster. The nature of the challenge fighting against AI robots causes less focused stimulation as compared to direct human challenge. With the unpatched version I downloaded a utility to reduce the "ace level" of the enemy fighters. The benefits from this was my ability in combat to focus more on how my plane handled and develop greater combat flight awareness. In other words, I wasn't so concerned and frustrated shaking loose AI enemy fighters. Eventually I stopped using the utility and to this day I enjoy the unpatched version with the more challenging AI. The improvement is dramatic although its taken quite a number of months, but its something I couldn't imagine when I first started. And if I use unlimited ammo, I can be at it for a long, long time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It will take a lot of time and patience. If you could play online and didn't get discouraged, it would probably accelerate your rate of improvement. FB is more realistic and every step you make should be much more satisfying than with previous sims.

Good luck

XyZspineZyX
10-03-2003, 11:44 PM
Hi,
In the first world war the pilots used to wear silk scarves to stop their necks chafing because they spent so much time looking from side to side, not for fashion. This sim is real enough (padlock?) to make this a very very important thing to do online as well. (lol looking around a lot the scarf is optional)

Dogfighting skills are of course essential but most of the great aces in both world wars (who survived) did as little of it as possible prefering to bounce their opponents and kill em b4 they knew what had hit em.

Online fighting is all about dogfighting for most and is easy to get suckered into. I am by far from being an expert but since I have made it a rule of "one pass and one only" my kill/death ratio has changed dramatically for the better, although often I dont kill a thing, but I dont die as well!

Yep boom and zoom works for me mostly but it is reliant on knowing your planes and others abilities. It's also dependent on having good situation awareness, which means you gotta look around a lot, fly upside down at times to see more etc etc.

I dont think there are any shortcuts and it takes alot of practice and the right sort of attitude. In short use your head to always be in control of a situation as when this goes it's a lottery and I damn well wouldn't trust my life to that in the "real" world

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 09:45 AM
I'm no expert on combat flying, my experiences on-line have been restricted to providing others with spectacular crashes, but off-line, if I get in trouble and I think I'm going to be in a lot of trouble, I hit the radio button as quick as my thumb will let me, press 7 for Anyone Help Me, then I start doing some random rolls and turns to reduce my straight line velocity. A lot of the time when I look behind me after 10 seconds of this, I'm greeted to a view of my pursuer being bounced by my wingman. Hey, thats what theyr'e there for isn't it, and I understand teamwork was one of the reasons why, after the intitial shock, US Navy Wildcats got the upperhand over the Zero.

I've also been the victim of such teamwork by the AI as well as on-line.



Message Edited on 10/04/0308:48AM by Lost_Lamb

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 05:56 PM
TaZ -- nice links

XyZspineZyX
10-04-2003, 11:40 PM
Cardinal25 wrote:
- Dogfighting is for n00b's and sallies.
-
- Learn E tactics and master the art of the "bounce".



Spoken by a true n00b


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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 05:27 AM
These are all excellent tactics. One of the most important, is learn your plane. The tactics of an I-16 won't be the same for a P-47, high or low, fast or slow. Your a/c and its dispotion , high alt, low speed, etc. will dictate most of your offensive and defensive manouvers. When FB came out, I tried flying and fighting in the P-47, and got hammered. I looked up some RL tactics, applied them, and now it's not soo bad. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Learn your a/c, and the best range to fight with it, try to force the other guy into your world, and light em up. Any plane can shoot down any other, using the right tactics. Turn and Burn, Boom and Zoom each have their place, sometimes you can use both in a fight. Good luck.

(BTW- Any info gained from this thread is not to be used to shoot me down, thanks.)

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 06:00 AM
stay HIGH stay FAST kick @$$ those five words will bring you home every time

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XyZspineZyX
10-05-2003, 06:14 AM
You gotta dodge the little red things and green things, then you gotta watch out for your android

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