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HotelBushranger
02-14-2005, 07:18 AM
Could someone please explain to me the different type of engines? E.g. radial, water cooled etc.

Would like to know al lthe different engines http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

HotelBushranger
02-14-2005, 07:18 AM
Could someone please explain to me the different type of engines? E.g. radial, water cooled etc.

Would like to know al lthe different engines http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

Chuck_Older
02-14-2005, 07:44 AM
Well, firstly, there is such as thing as a liquid cooled radial

In aircraft, generally speaking:

Rotary engines. Not the Wankel engine in car, quite different. In this engine, which commonly had just an 'on' and 'off' function in the first world war, the crankshaft is stationary. Now, in the IC engines we know and love in our cars, of course the crankshaft rotates... in a rotary, which resembles the classic radial, the cylinder heads and crankcase spin about the crankshaft.

Radial- similar in appaearance to the rotary, the radial fell out of favor due to things like the Schneider cup races. It was assumed (wrongly) that the radial couldn't make a plane as fast as an inline type, but while it's tru that power versus frontal area gives an advantage to the inline type, strictly speaking, the enourmous power of the radial offstes this to a large degree. the radial has the cylinder heads arrayed in a radial configuration, the crankshaft spins insde the crankcase

those types typically rely on air circulation over the surfaces of the engine. Now, some inline types used things such as evaporative radiators that I don't want to get into, but, in general:

Inline type- think of your car (although auto engines are different in several ways). This engine may take on a Vee design (similar to the classic and beloved V-8 shape), an opposed (think Ferrari Boxer engine, assocaiated to me most closely with Lycoming in aircraft types), or truely inline (Straight-8 of prewar cars), as well as others. A water jacket surrounds the piston bores (and basically any high heat areas, 'water jacket' is somewhat of a misnomer, it's a passage for coolant) for cooling,a dn radiators make the thermal transfer to keep the engine cool (actually, 'cool' is also a misnomer, because an IC engine needs to be kept at a certain optimum temperature which is not in any case "cool") "water" is also another misnomer- it's a coolant, usually with some degree of water. Water actually cools best, but can and will cause disssimilar metal corrosion, and actually, it's not as a coolant that water fails most miserably, it's actually quite good, it's as an anti-freezing element. Now, in order to function properly, any engine with water cooling must draw coolant (or anti-freeze if you prefer) through it's cooling system at pressure. It's the pressure in the system, not the coolant, which raises the boiling point of the coolant over 212*F. Take my auto engine as an example. My cooling system is a 15 psi type, and that raises the boiling point to 247*F. It's easy to see how a hole in a hose will allow air at atmospheric pressure into the cooling system, and reduce or negate it's effectiveness. It's kind of like boring a hole in a laden rowboat, bottom- water would gush in. The pressure in the system is key

FoolTrottel
02-14-2005, 10:53 AM
Some images in support:

Radial
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Engine1.jpg

In-line (Inverted, and air-cooled)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Engine2.jpg

Inline, V
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Engine3.jpg

HotelBushranger
02-15-2005, 06:13 AM
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lol, I remember the radials, the first time I saw one was on a Fokker Dr.1 lol.

Wow, inlines look pretty big, I suppose they'll be on what P-40s/47's?

How are rotary's and radials cooled? Or weren't they powerful enough to overheat?

Thanks

Chuck_Older
02-15-2005, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lol, I remember the radials, the first time I saw one was on a Fokker Dr.1 lol.

Wow, inlines look pretty big, I suppose they'll be on what P-40s/47's?

How are rotary's and radials cooled? Or weren't they powerful enough to overheat?

Thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Dr.1 was most likely a rotary. I'd have to check, but I would hazard to guess.

Rotaries and radials are air cooled. Please re-read my post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif As to power: radials are more powerful. Consider the 2,000 hp Double-Wasp and a 1695 HP Roll Royce Merlin inline. Of course, a Merlin with over 2,000 hp was made as well, but it was in an experimental Mustang. The fastest NAA Mustang, by the way, an experimental version, was reported to have gone 487 mph!

If air seems unlikely to cool such a powerful engine as a 2,000 hp Radial, consider this: Air cools the radiators on most IC (internal combustion engine) cars. On some, such as the iriginal Beetle, it's engine is completely air-cooled. Overheating an aircraft during WWII while on the gorund was a real concern, and it's easy to see why so many pilots bailed out of their aircraft following engine trouble- radial and 'inline'. Safety standards were not what they are today

P-47s used a radial: R2800 Double-Wasp made by Pratt&Whitney. It's worth noting that radials are 'odd numbered' with cylinders, but rows can be added, making a nine cylinder, for example, or in a double row, an 18 cylinder engine.

Take a look at a P-47 in-game from the front, and the nature of it's powerplant is obvious.

In almost all cases, a more streamlined looking front indicates the aircraft uses an inline

P-40 certainly did use an inline; the Allison V-1710-19 at first, and later an Allison V-1710-39, then througn several more changes and finally the -81 Allison V-1710

Blutarski2004
02-15-2005, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lol, I remember the radials, the first time I saw one was on a Fokker Dr.1 lol.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Dr.1 was most likely a rotary. I'd have to check, but I would hazard to guess.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Chuck, I agree that the original Dr.I was a rotary powered a/c. But, it is almost certain that HBR was looking at a modern replica, many of which are powered by radials.

In fact, I'm not sure if any original Dr.I's still exist.

Chuck_Older
02-15-2005, 08:03 AM
Ah, well, if it's a replica...but my point is that while it looks like a radial, the actual Fokker-built Dr.I used during the first world war most likely was a rotary powered aircraft, that's all.

Can't say I recall any real Dr.Is being around, myself

Wilburnator
02-15-2005, 09:03 AM
At Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome they have both a radial powered Dr.I replica and a LeRhone powered one. I have seen (and smelled) the rotary powered one fly in airshows there many times. Because roraty engines spin while their crankshafts remain stationary, centrifugal force blows the castor oil they used for lubricant out all over the place, all over the plane, all over the pilot. Pilots ingested castor oil, and on long flights it could have an unpleasant laxative effect.

Speaking of Rhinebeck Aerodrome, anyone living on the east coast United States might want to check it out. They have alot of flying replicas and some authentic flying antiques. They have regular weekend air shows during the summer and it's alot of fun for an aircraft enthusiast.

http://www.oldrhinebeck.org/

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Ah, well, if it's a replica...but my point is that while it looks like a radial, the actual Fokker-built Dr.I used during the first world war most likely was a rotary powered aircraft, that's all.

Can't say I recall any real Dr.Is being around, myself <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a pic of an original Rotary from Richthofen's Dr.I. It's missing some parts...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Rotary01.jpg

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 12:42 PM
An R2800 Double-Wasp
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/R2800.jpg

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 12:58 PM
Allison V1710-E11 (Built into P63-A Bell KingCobra)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/AllisonV1710-E11.jpg

Akronnick
02-15-2005, 01:05 PM
There were even four-row radial engines, specifically the R-4360 series

the XP-72 was a derivative of the P-47 that used this engine. It had the wings, empennage and undercarriage from a standard P-47, with a totally new fuselage. There were two prototypes built, the first with a four bladed prop, reached a maximum speed of 490 mph @ 25,000 feet. The second plane had a co-axial, contra-rotating three blade props.


http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/xp-72.jpg

The Armament for the production version was to have been four 37mm cannons (!!!!), talk about an Uber plane!

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 01:41 PM
As we're now turning to true doubles....
(Can't find the R-4360 in Janes Fighting Aircraft of WWII)
The Allison V4320 (Two V1710's in a 30dgr. angle)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/AllisonV3420.jpg

Or the Napier Sabre! 24 Cyl. 'I' type (like an H on it's side.... used in Tempest/Typhoon)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/SabreII.jpg

The Daimler-Benz 610, made of two DB605's, as used in the Heinkel HE-177.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/DB-610.jpg

stathem
02-15-2005, 02:05 PM
RR Vulture - X configuration
http://www.stobbe.dk/technical_literature/combustion_engines/rolls-royce/images/RR-Vulture.jpg

Didn't work particularly well...

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 02:26 PM
But due/thanks (don't wish to take sides http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) to that non-working Vulture (in the Manchester) the Lancaster was born...

Akronnick
02-15-2005, 03:26 PM
Here's a pic of the engine I was talking about.


http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng34a-1.jpg

It was also tested in the Boeing XF8B for the Navy.

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/photos/xf8b-1.jpg


None of the fighters that tested with it reached production because jets were coming around by then, but they were used in production Bombers (B-50, B-36) and Cargo Planes (C-119, C-97)

More info here:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/engines/eng34a.htm

FoolTrottel
02-15-2005, 03:33 PM
WOW!
"More Power!"

IL2-chuter
02-16-2005, 01:56 AM
I do believe the very last Dr1 triplane was one flown by the Red Baron and kept in a museum in Berlin before and, sadly, during WW2. It was no longer in existance at the end of the war.

The Oberusal (spelling?) rotary was a Le Rhone, I believe, knockoff. This, of course, led to the Great Copyright Infringement War, later referred to as simply the Great War.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

HotelBushranger
02-16-2005, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..... Chuck, I agree that the original Dr.I was a rotary powered a/c. But, it is almost certain that HBR was looking at a modern replica, many of which are powered by radials. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nooo...just my little model here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But come to think about it, radials and rotaries look pretty similar, so I probably just got them mixed up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do believe the very last Dr1 triplane was one flown by the Red Baron <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't the Baron crash?! Where have I been?! Don't see how they could reconstruct it from wood shavings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FoolTrottel
02-16-2005, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
I do believe the very last Dr1 triplane was one flown by the Red Baron and kept in a museum in Berlin before and, sadly, during WW2. It was no longer in existance at the end of the war.

The Oberusal (spelling?) rotary was a Le Rhone, I believe, knockoff. This, of course, led to the Great Copyright Infringement War, later referred to as simply the Great War.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Dr.I Richhofen flew was taken apart for souvenirs... he did crash in enemy territory...
Here's a pic from the remnants:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/Dr1.jpg

From the same page this pic was taken from (as well as the earlier ones I posted in this thread) this text was taken: (From the book 'Manfred von Richthofen. The Man and the aircraft he flew', it was included with 'Dawn Patrol')

"Controversy/or a long time surrounded the engine fitted to von Richthofen's Dr. I on
the day he crashed and was killed. It was at first believed to have been a 110 hp Le
Rhone type built under licence in Sweden but a manufacturers plate attached to the
engine when the Triplane was recovered showed it to have been made in Frankfurt,
confirming it to be a 100 hp Oberursel. Some engines were built by the Thulinfirm in
Sweden but this was not one of them. Pilots preferred the Swedish built motors and
did all in their power to get one. The plate attached to von Richthofen's engine was
stolen soon after it & was first displayed so the exact details are not known. The
engine is held today by the Imperial War Museum, London, where the photographs
on this page were taken. It was thoroughly cleaned for the first time in 1989, revealing
the mud of war from the Somme valley still clinging to its exterior surfaces.

Souvenir hunters had afield day with von Richthofen's Triplane although many more
claims exist than can possibly be substantiated. For instance, there is sufficient fabric
to cover a dozen Triplanes!"

IL2-chuter
02-16-2005, 12:26 PM
The Red Baron flew Dr1's 102/17, 127/17, 152/17, 477/17, and was killed in 425/17. These are documented, he probably had individual flights in more. The last triplane in Berlin was simply advertised as one that was flown by the Red Baron. I'm not sure I can be any clearer.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
02-16-2005, 12:46 PM
There is not a real Dr1 left anywhere in the world. Sadly all are replicas. The last real one was destroyed in a Berlin museum during an air raid during WW2.

FoolTrottel
02-17-2005, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
The Red Baron flew Dr1's 102/17, 127/17, 152/17, 477/17, and was killed in 425/17. These are documented, he probably had individual flights in more. The last triplane in Berlin was simply advertised as one that was flown by the Red Baron. I'm not sure I can be any clearer.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, you can't be any clearer.
I guess I wasn't reading .... I just skipped the 'was one' in "(...)very last Dr1 triplane was one flown by the Red Baron(...)" so I read "(...) very last Dr1 triplane flown by the Red Baron (...)"
Sorry.
The Fool stands corrected!

Have fun!

IL2-chuter
02-18-2005, 01:45 AM
Fool??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif No way! I miss stuff all the time and that doesn't stop me from commenting, and I'm no Fool. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I do like the rotaries but I've only had the pleasure of experiencing them once. Amazing things, all whirly, bppphhhing and smokey oil spewing (it was a Le Rhone). Most rotary powered WW1 designs are today flying with radials or opposeds, a tragedy. Model engines, that's the future of rotaries! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (That was an epiphany, I think http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif). Off to the model engine sites . . .